User talk:Beccaynr/Archives/2023/September
 | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Opinion on WP:SUSTAINED and independence
Hey, I'm wondering what your opinion is regarding articles on subjects who a) received coverage exclusively because of their death, and only around the time of death; and b) the content on their background/non-death biog detail comes exclusively from press releases from the time of their death. As in, there may be stories with primary news covering the circumstances of someone's death, supplemented with biographical info that comes directly from the handful of facts published in the press releases covering the person's death. I was always under the impression that material clearly derived from PR/non-independent sources was not intellectually independent, and that contemporaneous coverage surrounding a single minor event did not meet the threshold for sustained coverage as required by N and NOTNEWS. Thoughts?
Best, JoelleJay (talk) 03:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
- I think the sources you describe are also not multiple sources according to ) 05:18, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
- Also, notability for journalists can be challenging to support, because reliance on what their employers say or their own work are typically the most readily-available sources, and independent indications of notability are more difficult to find. For this subject, it appears she has received various accolades and awards over the course of her career that arguably constitute a form of secondary recognition and support her notability as "regarded as an important figure", and additional research could help develop the article to demonstrate this with independent sources. Beccaynr (talk) 15:37, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Beccaynr, thank you so much for your feedback, it's a relief to know I'm not hallucinating policy! I was actually thinking of a different AfD that in my opinion is even more egregious, although it seems this issue also applies to the one you mention too. Normally I would just go with my intuition on an AfD like that one (where my own search in Oklahoma newspapers didn't turn up anything, and I am generally against "additive" approaches to ANYBIO/NCREATIVE especially if I don't think there will be corresponding coverage), but I'm reluctant to actually !vote against the current crowd...it always turns into an exhausting ordeal that doesn't change any minds. Anyway, I'll have more of a response after work, but thanks again for your input! JoelleJay (talk) 16:49, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
- Cheers, and my 'arguable' approach is the best I could come up with from a guideline-based view, and it is weak without support in sources. I am thinking generally in terms of independent secondary support in reliable sources, but if we can't develop a full and balanced article, a redirect is likely ) 14:27, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'm thinking a redirect is probably the best option in the Oklahoma person AfD. This other AfD, though....I just feel like I'm going insane. Like...the biographical material in a news article shouldn't count towards GNG if it is strictly a subset of material from contemporaneous press releases, right? The non-quote, non-news biographical material here or here or here is functionally identical to this press release and its AP derivative (an amalgam of the death announcement and this earlier press release) and therefore should be excluded? JoelleJay (talk) 21:10, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- After a quick review of the article, it looks to me that under the notability guidelines generally, there wasn't sufficient coverage to support notability before her death, and the shallow, repetitive coverage related to her death further helps show how notability did not previously exist - had she had a notable career, obituaries would document this and make sustained notability-supporting sourcing easy to find.
- And while that AfD isn't the worst I've seen, the scale of personalization and insults is distracting, to say the least, so maybe that contributes to a sense of something seeming off-kilter. I also think WP:RAPID seems to apply:) 23:05, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
Deletion discussions while events are still hot news items rarely result in consensus to delete
, unfortunately. Beccaynr (talk- Oh RAPID describes what is happening perfectly, and especially helps explain the rush of random accounts participating. I also think the fact that we haven't even seen an actual obituary at all suggests the interest is wholly focused on the unusualness of her death (evocative of your "murderpedia") rather than her accomplishments as an athlete. That's sort of the core of why I've taken that AfD perhaps a little too personally: the suggestion that the amount of media interest in a person upon their death is a reliable correlate of how important they were in life, and especially that such attention should be directly compared to the level of coverage a woman athlete "normally" receives. It just smacks of missing (young) white woman syndrome. Would she have had such extensive global coverage if she had died at 77? Or if she was on an equivalent Indian or Brazilian team? JoelleJay (talk) 00:52, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Well put - and I really should start that essay, with a focus on accounting for sensational coverage when assessing notability and developing encyclopedic articles. In the meantime, I may try to develop an article for Dara Horn's nonfiction essay collection for the WIR editathon this month (Women writers and their works). Beccaynr (talk) 13:56, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Well, I've just posed a very subtle question at ) 19:06, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Well put - and I really should start that essay, with a focus on accounting for
- Oh RAPID describes what is happening perfectly, and especially helps explain the rush of random accounts participating. I also think the fact that we haven't even seen an actual obituary at all suggests the interest is wholly focused on the unusualness of her death (evocative of your "murderpedia") rather than her accomplishments as an athlete. That's sort of the core of why I've taken that AfD perhaps a little too personally: the suggestion that the amount of media interest in a person upon their death is a reliable correlate of how important they were in life, and especially that such attention should be directly compared to the level of coverage a woman athlete "normally" receives. It just smacks of missing (young) white woman syndrome. Would she have had such extensive global coverage if she had died at 77? Or if she was on an equivalent Indian or Brazilian team? JoelleJay (talk) 00:52, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'm thinking a redirect is probably the best option in the Oklahoma person AfD. This other AfD, though....I just feel like I'm going insane. Like...the biographical material in a news article shouldn't count towards GNG if it is strictly a subset of material from contemporaneous press releases, right? The non-quote, non-news biographical material here or here or here is functionally identical to this press release and its AP derivative (an amalgam of the death announcement and this earlier press release) and therefore should be excluded? JoelleJay (talk) 21:10, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- Cheers, and my 'arguable' approach is the best I could come up with from a guideline-based view, and it is weak without support in sources. I am thinking generally in terms of independent secondary support in reliable sources, but if we can't develop a full and balanced article, a redirect is likely ) 14:27, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Beccaynr, thank you so much for your feedback, it's a relief to know I'm not hallucinating policy! I was actually thinking of a different AfD that in my opinion is even more egregious, although it seems this issue also applies to the one you mention too. Normally I would just go with my intuition on an AfD like that one (where my own search in Oklahoma newspapers didn't turn up anything, and I am generally against "additive" approaches to ANYBIO/NCREATIVE especially if I don't think there will be corresponding coverage), but I'm reluctant to actually !vote against the current crowd...it always turns into an exhausting ordeal that doesn't change any minds. Anyway, I'll have more of a response after work, but thanks again for your input! JoelleJay (talk) 16:49, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
- Also,