Talk:Adarnase IV of Iberia

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On 11 August 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Adarnase IV, King of the Iberians. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Requested move 11 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 21:56, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

– Adarnase IV restored an abolished monarchy under the name of Kingdom of the Iberians. All the kings were titled so, until the Georgian unification when Bagrat III took over riegns of the several crowns who would effectively become an all-Georgian monarch. Before Bagrat III, all his forefathers back to Adarnase IV were rulers under the name of "King of the Iberians" and not "King of Iberia". An emperor /// Ave 20:01, 11 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:02, 19 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 04:15, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. "of Iberia" is just a disambiguator, not an attempt to render the exact title used. Srnec (talk) 16:34, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings User:Srnec. Thank you for voting. The monarchy restored by Adarnase IV was not called "Kingdom of Iberia" but the "Kingdom of the Iberians". The issue is not the formal mode of address or style of the kings but the name of a polity, as it was officially restored and referred as the "Kingdom of the Iberians", which may seem the same but it is rather different. I appreciate your feedback and again thanks for voting. An emperor /// Ave 01:30, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently at Kingdom of the Iberians has been moved several times without any discussion (including to its present title by you). I am not at all convinced that the current title is the appropriate one. Srnec (talk) 17:00, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your response. Indeed, I totally understand there may be a confusion between the names of these polities. Kingdom of Iberia natively was known as ქართლის სამეფო (kartlis samepo), where the Kingdom of the Iberians was known and referred to as ქართველთა სამეფო (kartvelta samepo). After the Sasanian takeover of the Iberian monarchy, the aristocracy left for various regions of the former kingdom. The lands in the southwest of the country concentrated in the Tao and Klarjeti regions was the area where the monarchy was restored in 888 by Adarnase IV under a different name and the name of his polity became "Kingdom of the Iberians" where he was styled as the "King of the Iberians" (ქართველთა მეფე, kartvelta mepe) and not "King of Iberia" (ქართლის მეფე, kartlis mepe). I appreciate your feedback and understand the confusion does exist so just wanted to make it clear for our community how important the distinction may be. An emperor /// Ave 01:50, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Georgia (country) has been notified of this discussion. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:02, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Question - is the area they ruled called "Iberia"? Fredlesaltique (talk) 13:14, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings User:Fredlesaltique. Thank you for your participation. Yes, it was referred as Iberia. But, Adarnase IV restored the monarchy as the "Kingdom of the Iberians". Please let me know if you have any more questions. Regards, An emperor /// Ave 13:50, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It see your point that they are slightly different. I'm not opposed, but just want to make sure that it's necessary in the title. Do other English sources make a distinction between "Kingdom of Iberia" and "Kingdom of the Iberians"? It seems like the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) recommends against it, but it's not set in stone. "In most cases, the name of the state is used rather than the form that appears in the monarch's actual title. For example, Constantine I of Greece not "of the Hellenes" and Henry I of England not "of the English". Fredlesaltique (talk) 23:03, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Fredlesaltique I absolutely understand the confusion. I am in no way suggesting this page move because these several monarchs' mode of address was styled so but the kingdom, a polity, a state and realm they were ruling was named and referred to as ქართველთა სამეფო (kartvelta samepo) meaning "Kingdom of the Iberians". So these kings were ruling the "Kingdom of the Iberians" hence the suggestion for the page move. Even though prior monarchs before Adarnase IV also had mode of address and style "King of the Iberians", those monarchs were ruling different monarchy with a different name e.g. "Kingdom of Iberia" (ქართლის სამეფო kartlis samepo) etc. There are sources in English, French but mostly this specific distinction is found in Georgian chronicles and scholarship which is long established. Regards, An emperor /// Ave 00:22, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Biography has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 04:15, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.