Talk:Bridei son of Beli

A fact from Bridei son of Beli appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 26 January 2006. The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that Pictland? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2006/January.

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Is there any evidence to support the statement that he was:

putting himself in a position to attack the Anglian possessions which existed in the far south - Lianachan 14:19, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence is deductive. His previous attacks, (unusually reported in the Irish sources) which follow a regular pattern, certainly did put him in a position to attack the anglian possessions in the far south. Direct evidence has it that he was fighting for "fighting for his grandfather's inheritance", and the only difference between the lands ruled by Bridei, and those by his grandfather, is that territory in the south had passed into (some form) of English domination. - Calgacus 14:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. But I still think that the sentence I quoted is making a large assumption with regards to Bridei's intentions. His grandfather's inheritance could just as easily mean a Fortriu that's free of Northumbrian overlordship. Lianachan 15:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it is clear that he was already king of Fortriu by that period. The whole issue depends on how much actual control the Northumbrians had of southern Pictland. If they controlled it, then Bridei clearly invaded; if they just claimed overlordship, then Ecgfrith invaded Bridei's kingdom, not the other way around. I'll stick a "perhaps" in. - Calgacus 15:14, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cool. I'm probably not making myself very clear. Bridei was indeed King of Fortriu by that stage, as you say, and had recently either expanded or reasserted his influence. James Fraser suggests, in his book The Battle Of Dunnichen, that Ecgfrith may have ventured north in response to a rejection of Northumbrian overlordship of Fortriu. In meeting him in battle, I was suggesting that Bridei was fighting for his grandfather's inheritence by trying to prevent Ecgfrith reasserting his own hold on Fortriu. Although I agree that he could have been maneuovering into a better position to attack southwards - I don't think there's sufficient evidence to confirm that this was indeed what he was up to. Lianachan 15:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

James Fraser was influenced by the idea that Fortriu was in central Scotland. This idea has be proven to be wrong, and the view in the article is very close to Fraser's current view. - Calgacus 15:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd assumed that he meant a sort of Greater Fortriu, meaning the extent of Bridei's rule and including modern Angus/Tayside. However, I know what you mean. Given his recent acts of aggression, if that area hadn't already been under his sway it's certainly not unlikely he would have quite fancied it. Lianachan 15:51, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know Bridei was born no later than the year 628? What is your source(s)? —The preceding

I imagine that it would be the twin assumptions that (a) he was the son of Bili son of Neithon, and (b) that Bili son of Neithon was dead by c. 628 (e.g. Annales Cambriae translation s.a. 627: Belin dies.) Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:09, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Please sign your comments like this: ~~~~

Would you give any credence to the claim I read somewhere that Bili died in 633, possibly at the battle of Hatfield fighting alongside his fellow Britons? cruithneach (Talk) 08:22, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering about both conjectural dates (i.e. 616 and 628). The first problem is that the identification of Belin in the AC with Beli of the Harleian genealogies is unconvincing for two reasons: that it is an isolated note of a North British ruler at a time when AC has no other such entries (they start only in '722' with Beli filius Elfin), and that Bartrum (Welsh Classical Dictionary) has another reasonable candidate in Belin of Llyn (who has the advantage of having the same name; i.e. 'Beli' is not the same as 'Belin'). The second problem is that Brude III's recorded intensive military activity falls in 680x685, this would surely be more likely of a war-leader in his 30's or 40's than an elderly ruler in his 50's or 60's. The general picture suggests Brude was about ten years younger than Ecgfrith, and born perhaps around 655x660.
--Henrywgc 15:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This source says his mother was the daughter of Eanfrith of Bernicia. I don't know the evidence (or if it conflicts), but the article now says his mother was probably a daughter of Edwin. Everyking 08:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence is the Historia Brittonum's comment that Bridei and Ecgfrith were cousins (fratruelem suum). The literalist interpretation given here comes from Woolf's "Pictish matriliny reconsidered". It at least has the virtue of avoiding the Humpty Dumpty "it means just what I choose it to mean" school of scholarship. There are words in Latin for a vague relationship - agnatus, affinitas, cognatus - which would have served as well, if vague had been what was wanted. Ziegler has the relationship marked as hypothetical, and there are plenty of other interpretations of the kinship between Bridei and Ecgfrith in print.

The verse about fighting for his grandfather's inheritance comes from the C11th Fragmentary Annals of Ireland [which mistakenly links the poem with Aldfrith/Flann Fina rather than Ecgfrith]. The [?date?] Betha Adamnáin says that he was "the son of the King of Dumbarton" (mac rig Ala Cluaithi). Hope this helps, Angus McLellan (Talk) 10:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]