Talk:Territorial control during the Russo-Ukrainian War

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To help centralise discussions and keep related topics together, Template talk:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map and Module talk:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map redirect here.

Rules for editing the map A reliable source for that specific edit should be provided. A well-known source that has a reputation for neutral (not biased) territorial control coverage, can be used (is deemed reliable) for all edits. A well-known source that does not have a reputation for neutral (not biased) territorial control coverage, can be used (is deemed reliable) only for edits that are unfavorable to the side it prefers (favorable to the side it opposes). A source that is not well-known (or that has proven inaccurate for all edits) cannot be used (is deemed unreliable) for any edit. This includes all maps (see item 2. next). Do not put source URLs in edit summaries. The references at Territorial control during the Russo-Ukrainian War must be updated before the map is edited. Copying from maps is strictly prohibited. Maps from mainstream media are approximate and therefore unreliable for any edit. Maps from amateur sources are below the standards of Wikipedia for any edit. They violate WP:CIRCULAR . WP:SPS: "Anyone can create a personal web page, self-publish a book, or claim to be an expert. That is why self-published material, such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs, Internet forum postings, and tweets, are largely not acceptable as sources." WP:CIRCULAR: "Do not use websites that mirror Wikipedia content or publications that rely on material from Wikipedia as sources." See also: WP:POV pushing and intentional misinterpretation of sources will not be tolerated. If you are not sure what the source is saying (or its reliability), post it on the talk page first so that it will be discussed. See also: Wikipedia:Top 10 myths about the Wikipedia Syria war map

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On 26 February 2022, it was proposed that this article be Control of cities during the Russo-Ukrainian War .

On 30 September 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Control of localities during the Russo-Ukrainian War. The result of the discussion was Moved to Territorial control during the Russo-Ukrainian War.

This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination: Keep, 13 April 2022, see discussion. keep, 28 February 2022, see discussion.

What do you think about including a timeline for territorial changes? I think it would be very handy for this page and the map templates. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 19:15, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I second this Space772 (talk) 00:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There has been an important breakthrough in the south of Avdiivka recently. Russian troops reached several residential streets. In the previous weeks, the Russians also made some advances in the dacha area south of the pumping station on the northern outskirts of the city. And these are on top of the contested southeast region around the industrial zone since late November. Do you agree to mark the city as a single contested large icon in the map templates instead of 2-3 smaller contested icons over a larger blue circle? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 14:28, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Avdiivka should definitely be contested due to Russian advance on the south. Berobalkan (talk) 09:46, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should Avdiivka be changed to Russian control? reports are saying Ukrainian forces have retreated. Glacialblair (talk) 18:52, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Was each and every settlement listed actually captured by the Russian military on 27 February 2014? Do we have a way of verifying this? SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 22:56, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure, I just assumed. Maybe local news might help. We could alternatively just say it was captured by an specific date or around it. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 14:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So most of the government buildings and strategic locations in Simferopol were captured in late February, but there was a military installation inside the city that remained under the Ukrainian army until mid-March (see 2014 Simferopol incident). Based on the rules of this Wikipedia article, how do you represent that? For example, Mariupol was not considered captured until the Azovstal was captured. Or is it simply a matter of when the RS use the word "captured"?

Note: there was a similar incident in Bakhmut, at the time still Artemivsk, also in 2014 (see Battle of Artemivsk). SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 19:18, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We're mostly using an "effectively captured" definition. If RS generally say a place was captured, despite some resistance pocket existing, we still use the original capture date. Nuance can go in the dedicated article. I.e. Bakhmut likely wasn't 100% captured on 20 May 2023, but everybody considers that the capture date because fighting mostly stopped then. But it also wouldn't hurt to add a footnote or normal note in the "More information" column. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 15:56, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ivanivske in is contested. Look at DeepState maps. Ivanivske in Bakhmut, Donetsk. 108.39.196.77 (talk) 02:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it should be added due to Russian advance nearby in the last few days. Berobalkan (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone? Berobalkan (talk) 14:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Physeters, @Nurg? Anyone? Berobalkan (talk) 13:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Russia is getting pretty close, so it might make sense to add the strong enemy pressure symbol. Physeters^✉ 16:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I've already added the pressure marker to the map and also considered it "contested" here, since 4 April is an important date. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 13:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't say that it's contested. Although, I don't know what is the protocol on this site. Berobalkan (talk) 14:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, "contested" is a bit of a loose definition here, but it's the closest option to reality we got. In the "more info" column I also tend to simplify the events for consistency. In the map itself, there are more drawing options.

ping me] 23:33, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

Not contested. The ISW ref given says Russians "advanced up to the eastern outskirts", not that they entered the settlement. Nurg (talk) 03:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. Physeters^✉ 04:01, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The definition of "outskirts" has always been contentious (for me, since the Ukrainian battle for Robotyne). Looking at their map is also very important and it clearly showed that Russia had advanced to the first few buildings within official city boundaries. I only include quotes in my references to aid readers to know more or less what the ref is about, i.e. if it's about geolocated evidence or claims, on what date and in what region. The ISW itself told readers a while back that it would be giving less detail to territorial changes and encouraged avid readers to check their linked references while keeping in mind the broad conclusions that the ISW wrote. Therefore, whatever I quote is not the whole picture especially since I tend to get the shortest quote possible to not bloat the references section. If this practice is misleading, then I may stop it altogether.

Regarding considering it "contested" or not is a semantic discussion. I, personally, will never bother conveying such extra detail (i.e. "they pressured this area" or "they advanced up to these buildings then retreated..."), but you guys are welcome to do so in the extra info column, especially since this is an important city battle ;). I'm mostly focused on completeness and consistency.

ping me] 18:18, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

I follow the definition of "contested" at Module:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map#Contested icon. Nurg (talk) 23:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's reasonable and consistent. Will adopt it in this page too from now on. Thanks 👍.

ping me] 01:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

Might not be contested anymore because of Ukrainain counterattack in the north of the settlement. Berobalkan (talk) 14:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Physeters, @Nurg, anyone? Berobalkan (talk) 13:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When did the counterattack take place?. The ISW was still showing Russia in control of northern Synkivka yesterday. Physeters^✉ 16:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Took place on 1 April. Berobalkan (talk) 05:19, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which source are you considering? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 13:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It does seem likely/natural that Ukraine retook it, but I still need a good source.

ping me] 18:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

Btw, I'm not checking my watchlist anymore (too many headaches). I was only editing the list page and forgot to check this talk page. So I would recommend pinging if you want to get my attention. ;) Alexis Coutinho (talk) 13:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why two simbols? One for contested and one for UA control? Berobalkan (talk) 12:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes,

ping me] 20:24, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

Yes, I think it is ok, if we want fine-grained info on the map. Nurg (talk) 02:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to yesterday's ISW update, Russian forces have yet to enter Heorhiivka, and are within the town limits of Bilohorivka in Luhansk Oblast. Heorhiivka is currently marked as contested, but Bilohorivka is not. Why is this? Is there a different source that says Heorhiivka is contested and Bilohorivka is in full Ukrainian control? Physeters^✉ 22:44, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide a link and quote for the ISW update that says Russian forces are within the town limits of Bilohorivka. Nurg (talk) 23:19, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Though the ISW updated their map to show the advance, never directly addressed, which is probably why we all missed it. Their first map that showed Russia within Bilohorivka was published on February 29, and the current map still has it. https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/36a7f6a6f5a9448496de641cf64bd375 Physeters^✉ 06:52, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]