Talk:Cravat (early)

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. The bulk of this discussion pertained to whether this article was the

• Cravat (early) → Cravat
• Cravat → Cravat (disambiguation)

– The word "early" here itself is ambiguous, and the fact that

• Support. This article was at the stable title Cravat until an undiscussed move in 2021. 162 etc. (talk) 16:33, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: Consider a different disambiguated title. The word can also refer to an ascot or an ordinary necktie. It is ambiguous. The fact that another disambiguated meaning is redirected seems beside the point. As stated at
  WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT, "The fact that an article has a different title is not a factor in determining whether a topic is primary." —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Support Per nom. The undiscussed move seems to have just been ill considered. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 22:10, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Not the primary term. Possibly is in the US, but in the UK we would usually use the term "cravat" rather than "Ascot" to refer to the modern item. However, I would support a different disambiguator if one could be found. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:18, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per Necrothesp. There are ten bulleted entries listed upon the Cravat disambiguation page, with no indication that the entry for Cravat (early) delineates a subject of such renown as to overwhelm the combined notability of the remaining nine entries. Since the lead line of the article states, "The cravat (/krəˈvæt/) is a neckband, the forerunner of the modern tailored necktie and bow tie,...", I would support Cravat (early) → Cravat (neckband). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:16, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  That would not disambiguate it from an ascot. 162 etc. (talk) 19:05, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Just makes it awkward and unclear. Any confusion with the Ascot can be addressed with a DAB note at top. Walrasiad (talk) 04:13, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're ignoring the fact that to British people a cravat means what Americans call an Ascot! Why should American usage take priority? -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:05, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't care less about British people. Or American people for that matter. Wikipedia is not written for parochial audiences. That article already has a name, and its not "cravat". Whereas this has no other name but "cravat". A dab note can address peculiar local usages of a term well enough. Walrasiad (talk) 14:56, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is not how Wikipedia works. It is just happenstance that the other article is entitled "Ascot tie". It could just as easily have been entitled "Cravat". But, what we should not do is assume that the article on the old-fashioned item should be entitled using the undisambiguated term, as that implies it is the primary topic for that term, which it clearly is not. In British English, the primary topic for that term is the modern item, not the old-fashioned item. It is no more a "local usage" than Ascot is. So, in actual fact, the proposal would mean that Wikipedia is written for "parochial" (American, in this case) audiences. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:17, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You seem a tad obsessed with Americans. Your fight isn't here, it's over there. The term "cravat" is actually quite an international term (French, German, etc.), and means different things in different countries. But this is actually the perfect article for this topic, since it is talking about "cravat" in its original sense - not the "American" sense (as you mistakenly assume), but in the original French/German/Austrian sense, i.e. "the Croatian", which is the origin of all the other "cravat" derivatives. This is actually an informative and useful article. Please don't turn into a nationalist pissing contest. Walrasiad (talk) 21:56, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody is turning anything into a "nationalist pissing contest", as you would know if you got off your high horse and actually bothered to read what you're commenting on. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:48, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. An alternative would be to merge the articles, as they do appear to be largely covering the same ground and I'm not sure there is a need for two separate articles. They could then be entitled either Ascot tie or Cravat, with one redirecting to the other, and the article currently at Cravat could be moved to Cravat (disambiguation) as this is the clear primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:20, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]