Talk:Hottinguer family

This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Royalty and Nobility This article is within the scope of WikiProject Royalty and Nobility, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of royalty and nobility on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Royalty and NobilityWikipedia:WikiProject Royalty and NobilityTemplate:WikiProject Royalty and NobilityRoyalty and Nobility articles Switzerland This article is within the scope of WikiProject Switzerland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Switzerland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SwitzerlandWikipedia:WikiProject SwitzerlandTemplate:WikiProject SwitzerlandSwitzerland articles ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

The WP:COIRESPONSE . BC1278 (talk · contribs) has been paid by the Hottinger Group on behalf of the Hottinguer family.

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

I have a

BC1278 (talk) 19:53, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reply 9-JAN-2020

Regards,  Spintendo  08:58, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reply Jan 9

I suggest first addressing the proposed items that provide new sources and references. Then, once these are added to the article, I can circle back and show how all the sources for the proposed overview are in the revised article. Here are the proposed items:

BC1278 (talk) 19:44, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I addressed the addition of the proposed items that provided new sources and references in point one of my reply message. That point stated "Only one reference was provided from a reliable source - Le Temps. Please provide more references from those types of sources." Regards,  Spintendo  21:42, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Update: I've added the Le Temps reference as well as the Wealth Manager reference as a {{cite interview}}, and added a reference for the Lyford claim. I believe further references originating from just the family should be limited — this includes wire services that publish press releases and interviews. Regards,  Spintendo  23:19, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reply Jan. 10

I think perhaps it's best to address some of these one at a time, so I can understand anything else that's needed:

1. In "Mergers and the new Hottinger Group (2015 – present)":

Delete: "The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Hottinger and Archimedes in July 2016 with Hottinger Group maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva."

Insert: The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Groupe Financière Hottinger & Co and Archimedes in July 2016 to become the Hottinger Group, maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva.^[1]

Why?

The current sentence is incorrect. Groupe Financière Hottinger & Co and Archimedes merged to form Hottinger Group. "Hottinger" (the exact entity is unspecified in the article) and Achimedes did not merge with Hottinger Group - Hottinger Group was the entity formed as a result of the merger of Groupe Financière Hottinger & Co and Archimedes.

@Spintendo: While the sentences are very similar, they are not the same because the current sentence states that there was a merger "with" an existing entity called Hottinger Group, when in fact, Hottinger Group was a new entity formed because of the merger. Here is a proposed variation that changes just a couple of words to make the sentence accurate: "The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Hottinger and Archimedes in July 2016 to form the Hottinger Group maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva." I have deleted the words "with" and replaced it with "to form" in he suggested sentence.^[2] I've also corrected the citation format.

2. Any particular reason not to include "Additional Reading"? The alternative would be to integrate these sources into the article as back-up citations. But I thought it might be more useful for a serious researcher to see the French-language books and print periodicals presented this way. BC1278 (talk) 20:05, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reply Jan. 14

In response to the request above from Spintendo for additional information regarding the proposed "Further Reading", the list below now contains URLs for the periodicals and/or EAN or ASIN numbers foe the books. Only one periodical was unavailable online. I'd propose the list be added above References.

Additional Reading

• J. Bellamy-Brown (2003), “Credit-Suisse Hottinguer, accroit son assise en France”, Banque Magazine, Issue 650, pp. 32-33 [2]

• H. Chervrillon (1997), “Moi, Rodolphe Hottinguer, banquier privé suisse” , L’expension, Issue 554, pp. 94-95 [3]

• “Dans l’hôtel du baron Hottinguer”(2003), Connaissance des arts, Issue 611, pp. 62-67 [4]

• P.J. Lehmann (2005), “Les Hottinguer, Banquiers classiques de la Haute banque”, La vie financière, Issue 3142, pp.44-47

• A. Malvoisin (2003), “Hottinguer, tout feu tout flamme”, Le journal des arts, p. 25 [5]

• Gérard, Max (1968). Messieurs Hottinguer Banquiers à Paris, Vol. I&II. Draeger Frères, EAN-13 # 2000065635665

• S. Vernes (1973), 18 rue de Courcelles et Guermantes, Paris, Jean Grassin, ASIN: B0018G95HE

• B. du Vignaud (2003), “L’hôtel Hottinguer, rue de la Baume”, in Christie’s (ed.) Ancienne Collection du baron Hottinguer provenant de son hôtel particulier de la rue de la Baume, Paris, Christie’s, pp. 9-10, ASIN: B00113BKTU

Thanks for your consideration. BC1278 (talk) 15:41, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Replying to this comment, above, from User: Spintendo: #The sentence says "The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Hottinger" (meaning Groupe Financière Hottinger & Co) "and Archimedes in July 2016" (insert comma here) "with Hottinger Group maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva." Nothing that you've proposed differs from how the sentence is stated.

@Spintendo: While the sentences are very similar, they are not the same because the current sentence states that there was a merger "with" an existing entity called Hottinger Group, when in fact, Hottinger Group was a new entity formed because of the merger. Here is a proposed variation that changes just a couple of words to make the sentence accurate: "The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Hottinger and Archimedes in July 2016 to form the Hottinger Group maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva." I have deleted the words "with" and replaced it with "to form" in the suggested sentence.^[1] I've also corrected the citation format. BC1278 (talk) 21:59, 11 January 2020 (UTC)`[reply]

 Done  Spintendo  23:28, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page.

that User:Markjamesrobertson74 who has edited this article as an SPA has been blocked as a sockpuppet. He appears to be closely related to this family [ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=757736698&oldid=696607143&title=Mark_Robertson&type=revision]. I suggest that any paid editors on this page make a full and complete disclosure on whether they have any affiliation with this editor, and to withdraw if they do. Otherwise it's a pretty straightforward case of meatpuppeting and avoiding a block, i.e. MJR can't edit anymore so he hires somebody to edit for him. Money does not buy an exemption from a sockpuppet block. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 05:00, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As disclosed above, I was hired by the Hottinger Group, though their marketing department. I don't know the identity of the user mentioned by User: Smallbones and my agreement with all my clients includes a provision that as long as I am working for them, they may not edit or participate in any article involving the subject or they breach their agreement with me. I am not coordinating with any other Wikipedia accounts and my proposals, such as suggesting an overview lead, which the article now lacks, are being made independently by me, although I am keeping the company appraised of what I'm proposing, mainly to avoid mistakes. So I am coordinating with the company as their representative. Nonetheless, the similarity of the user name of the blocked account to that of the CEO, as pointed out by Smallbones, is noteworthy, even though I've had no contact with him. That said, I believe the block is to punish the specific user for improper behavior, not the company, which of course, has many shareholders and employees. So at first blush, I don't think the company is precluded from hiring an editor who properly discloses COI and submits all proposals for review by independent editors. But I can't say I've ever run across a situation like this, though, so I am putting an Admin Help tag atop this section so someone with more experience can decide what to do. BC1278 (talk) 22:34, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A minor correction - I did not say anything about anybody being a CEO. On the other hand, it's pretty hard to miss, if you just look at the article's edit history for 3 minutes (do you have that little gadget that marks the blocked editors?) The red link to User:Markjamesrobertson1974 as well as the block of User:Markjamesrobertson74 is pretty obvious as well. Just googling "Hollinger Group" gives you the name of the sock at the top of the "team" page. The sockfarm wasn't especially big - 4 or 5 socks - but most of them are Hollinger SPAs. And there are 10 or so Hollinger family articles now on Wikipedia mostly saying the same stuff. The article itself is horrible - you should be ashamed of having your name associated with it. There's a dark background to this as well - though I haven't gotten through the walls of text on all 10 articles - they don't seem to mention the Ponzi scheme and the bankruptcy. We need to be careful not to promote any firm, but that kind of firm ...

Finally, the argument about a company not being blocked if the CEO is blocked is nonsense. It's a small family firm - the Board of Directors is only 3 people. They have Board meetings on the elevator. An ordinary joe sockpuppet cannot pay a friend to meatpuppet for him, a business sock can't order his secretary to meatpuppet for him. Why should a CEO be allowed to order his marketing department to hire a meatpuppet?

@BC1278: do the right thing and nominate all the Hollinger articles for deletion, then withdraw from them totally. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:26, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is no actual administrative action required here yet, so I'm closing the template, but I will also offer an opinion regarding

requested edit process as well as the usual paid disclosure rules. Yunshui ^雲_水 09:06, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

@Smallbones: Does this opinion from Yunshui satisfy your concerns? If not, I will bring the matter to the attention of COIN or ANI. BC1278 (talk) 15:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In response to the request above from Spintendo for additional ISBN information regarding sources for the proposed "Further Reading", the list below now contains URLs for the periodicals and/or EAN or ASIN numbers for the books. Only one periodical was unavailable online. I'd propose the list be added above References.

Additional Reading

• J. Bellamy-Brown (2003), “Credit-Suisse Hottinguer, accroit son assise en France”, Banque Magazine, Issue 650, pp. 32-33 [6]

• H. Chervrillon (1997), “Moi, Rodolphe Hottinguer, banquier privé suisse” , L’expension, Issue 554, pp. 94-95 [7]

• “Dans l’hôtel du baron Hottinguer”(2003), Connaissance des arts, Issue 611, pp. 62-67 [8]

• P.J. Lehmann (2005), “Les Hottinguer, Banquiers classiques de la Haute banque”, La vie financière, Issue 3142, pp.44-47

• A. Malvoisin (2003), “Hottinguer, tout feu tout flamme”, Le journal des arts, p. 25 [9]

• Gérard, Max (1968). Messieurs Hottinguer Banquiers à Paris, Vol. I&II. Draeger Frères, EAN-13 # 2000065635665

• S. Vernes (1973), 18 rue de Courcelles et Guermantes, Paris, Jean Grassin, ASIN: B0018G95HE

• B. du Vignaud (2003), “L’hôtel Hottinguer, rue de la Baume”, in Christie’s (ed.) Ancienne Collection du baron Hottinguer provenant de son hôtel particulier de la rue de la Baume, Paris, Christie’s, pp. 9-10, ASIN: B00113BKTU

BC1278 (talk) 18:03, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reply 15-JAN-2020

  Unable to implement  

• The sources in the proposed Additional reading section have not been formatted using the same style that the majority of sources in the article use.

Regards,  Spintendo  20:45, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined.

As requested immediately above, I have reformated the citations using the citation tool from the Wikipedia toolbar to determine the fields. To the extent that citations in the current article do not match, it is because the article's citations are breaking format recommended by the toolbar. I am happy to suggest new citation formats for the main article, too, to match the correct format presented below. Please see COI disclosures above. I'd request the following be added above References. Thanks for your review! BC1278 (talk) 17:46, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Additional Reading

• Bellamy-Brown, J. (2003). "Credit-Suisse Hottinguer, accroit son assise en France". Banque Magazine (650): 32–33. Retrieved 22 January 2020.
• Chervrillon, H. (1997). "Moi, Rodolphe Hottinguer, banquier privé suisse". L’expension (554): 94–95. Retrieved 22 January 2020.
• "Dans l'hôtel du baron Hottinguer". Connaissance des arts (611): 62–67. 2003. Retrieved 22 January 2020.
• Lehmann, P.J. (2005). "Les Hottinguer, Banquiers classiques de la Haute banque". La vie financière (3142): 44–47.
• Malvoisin, A. (2003). "Hottinguer, tout feu tout flamme". Le journal des arts: 25. Retrieved 22 January 2020.
• Gérard, Max (1968). Messieurs Hottinguer Banquiers à Paris. Draeger Frères. EAN-13 # 2000065635665.
• Vernes, S. (1973). 18 rue de Courcelles et Guermantes, Paris. Jean Grassin. ASIN: B0018G95HE.
• du Vignaud, B. (2003). Ancienne Collection du baron Hottinguer provenant de son hôtel particulier de la rue de la Baume, Paris. Christie’s. pp. 9–10. ASIN: B00113BKTU

— Preceding unsigned comment added by BC1278 (talk • contribs) 15:42, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide {{ISBN}}'s or {{OCLC}} information for those without any other identifying characteristics. Reasons for why these additional readings should be added are also to be given. Those which use ASINs should use {{ASIN}} (or |ASIN=). These all need to be placed using CS1. These should be placed in a new edit request below with a new request template. Regards,  Spintendo  23:16, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

As disclosed above, I have a conflict of interest as a paid consultant to the Hottinger Group.

1. In the section, "The modern era (1950–2015), international expansion and decline of the Swiss bank", at the end of paragraph two, after the final sentence, please add the following citation. There is no citation at present. The sentence itself remains unchanged:

The Banque Hottinguer in Paris was sold to the Credit Suisse in 1997.^[1]

2. In the section, "The modern era (1950–2015), international expansion and decline of the Swiss bank", please remove the final paragraph: “The Swiss division of Hottinger Banking Group closed its doors for the last time in October 2015, due to the increased regulatory demands in Switzerland. ^{[citation needed]}"

And replace it with:

“The Swiss division of Hottinger - Banque Hottinger & Cie SA - was forced into liquidation by Swiss Financial Market Supervisory Authority in October 2015 because of “sustained losses” and “unresolved litigation.”^[2]

Explanation: The current sentence has no citation. The new sentence has a citation and accurately reflects the source.

3. As paragraph four in the section "The modern era (1950–2015), international expansion and decline of the Swiss bank", please insert:

The Hottinger family amassed a substantial art collection.

"The Hottinguer family (also spelled "Hottinger") is an aristocratic Swiss and French family tracing its origins to the 14th century.[5] It has been known for banking and finance since the 18th century, starting with Jean-Conrad Hottinger.^[6] The family's primary 21st century financial enterprise is the Hottinger Group.^[7][8]

Explanation: This is is an overview of the entire article. All the facts come from the text of the article. There is one new citation, not currently in the article, from a book from Oxford University Press.

5. Reposition the entire current lead as the new first section of the "Contents" of the article, rather than as the lead. The proposal is for it to appear on top of the section “Five Generations of Doctors & Pastors.” The text below the proposed new section header is entirely unchanged.

Origins

'Hottinger' first appears in the annals of the town of

Thanks for your consideration. BC1278 (talk) 19:55, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]