Talk:Human history/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

NPOV Issue? I'm still kind of new to the idea of contributing/critiquing articles so I figure I'll just raise this point instead of tagging NPOV myself, but the section on the 20th Century states that the Soviet Union collapsed due to US military spending. This is not only very America-centric in that it ignores the contributions of Mikhail Gorbachev, John Paul II, et al. and the importance of the Solidarity movement in Poland in bringing down Soviet communism, but it is also considered a rather right-wing point of view even in the United States insofar as it focuses on the oftentimes controversial policies of the Reagan Administration. I would be open to editing the article to rememdy this but am reluctant to do so without some guidance, partly due to my inexperience and partly because I don't want to create an NPOV issue tilted towards my own ideas... ThirtyOneKnots 4:24. 14 Dec 2005 (UTC)

• The reality was that the people in communistic countries knew that they were far poorer then the people in the west. They had a complete mistrust in their leadership. The leaders of the Soviet Union knew that their economy was decreasing and that they couldn't apply all the new technologies from the west. The advance of the computer was a great concern for them. A demand both among the elite as the population for change grew in large parts of Eastern Europe. Before Gorbachev, government and society were already changing in Poland and Hungary. The American military was an important element for the Soviet elite. The Soviet Union couldn't maintain its military anymore, while the United States was repadly modernizing its army using computer technologies. I'm not an expert, so i don't know how important the military was for the collapse.--Daanschr 09:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Just a remark : afaik, Neanderthal Man is not an ancestor of man but rather a dead lineage. --nct 21:18, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A question of style rather than of content: shouldn't all verbs be either consistently past tense or consistently present tense? I'd suggest changing everything to past tense if nobody objects :)

Alright, everything is in past tense now :) Ferkelparade 17:29, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The article claims that currency originated in the Neolithic. Coinage was certainly not used before the early Iron Age, so I think I'm going to delete that misleading word from the Neolithic section as soon as I've thought up something relevant to add to the Bronze and Iron Ages section. Also, date ranges ought to be added to the section headings so that claims within each section are more easily verified. Arkuat 07:19, 2004 Jul 23 (UTC)

If you're going to try to write a history of the ENTIRE world, it has to be more comprehensive than this. Also, each section deserves its own article. Personally, I think such a history in one article is foolish.

I think the article is simply meant as a very general overview. The history of the world obviously can't be completely covered even many, many volumes; this article should simply be something to point others in the right direction.CancerOfJuly

What's important is to have one article that links to all of the various historical-overview articles of interest. When this article gets too long (and when all the anachronisms have been moved to their correct section, and we figure out what the chronological limits of each section are), at that point we can worry about breaking this up into smaller articles. --Eric Forste 22:11, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to encourage us to keep this a nice, short, comprehensive overview. Not everybody wants to read a 20,000 word article. But neither should it simply be a list of available history articles. I think that it is pretty good now and with further tweaking (but not necessarily a lot more text) it'll be fine. Cheers, -Willmcw 22:32, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

"The Europeans also had horses, steel, and guns that allowed them to overpower and slaughter the American people." Slaughter seems a little general. As I recall (and what a glance at Native American seems to suggest), the French in Québec didn't really do anything but trade with the original inhabitants for furs, and the North American English tried to avoid them in general- at least for the first century or so that they were there.
--BillyL 21:13, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I expect the above remark was principally about the very early history of Spanish colonization. By the way, I noticed that

Mauryas in the later age of kingdoms section, along with a few other anachronisms, which I tried to tidy up after checking the referenced articles. I also moved the paragraph on India in the age of kingdoms section so that it would adjacent to the rest of the discussion of Eurasian history in that period. --Eric Forste

22:08, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The shortest World History might include a line about the "present". "The capitalism socio-economics system domains the world with its power centers at the G-8 goverments, very contrast in human development societies exist and a massive south->north human migration exists. The planet-dynamics is changing because of human activities. Human race social and economics contrast and enviroment problems are the main challenges of human kind, etc..." lets discuss about. --GengisKanhg (my talk) 13:54, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Capitalism doesn't cause poverty or resourse-depletion. Modern society is build on an infastructure which requires scarce natural resources; thus, these are becomming depleted. The economic system in question is irrelevent. Indeed, the underlying principle of capitalism is that resources will be used in the most effective way possible.

And poverty exists, has always existed, and will always exist. Again, capitalism isn't the reason.--70.17.206.164 04:48, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Being a socialist, i strongly resist this statement. There are lots of people suffering with little to eat. Not only in underdeveloped countries, but also in the United states, Western Europe and Japan. East Germany didn't had this kind of problems. The only reason why hunger exists is capitalism.

Criticisms_of_capitalism#Unequal_distribution_of_wealth_and_income

Regarding the depletion of resources. The seas are nearly depleted of fish (Overfishing) thanks to capitalism. Oil is running out (Petroleum#Future_of_oil), while there hasn't been a good substitute yet.Daanschr 10:53, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Did you notice, in the link that you provided to overfishing, what the proposed solution is? It's privitization. Capitalism isn't the problem here...it's the solution.--Xiaphias 20:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

During the period socialism was prominent during the 20th century in eastern Europe its record of environmental destruction was on par or in some cases more serious than capitalist countries. In fact one of the reasons China has such serious environmental problems today is the Chinese leadership thought the western capitalists countries concern for the environment was a mistake, a mistake that they wouldnt make, a decision the outcome of which we hear in the news weekly now and they are re-thinking. -- Stbalbach 17:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Alright, Daanschr; I mean no offense, but you clearly lack an economic background. Thus, I feel that you are unqualified to make the claims you’re making.

Capitalism doesn’t cause resource depletion. Capitalism, as I mentioned before, ensures that recourses are used in the most efficient way possible. If a company doesn’t operate at peak efficiency, then a competitor will be able to take its market share by doing so. Under a centrally-planned economy, it’s not that the government doesn’t try to achieve allocation equilibrium; it’s just that it’s unable to determine what the most efficient use of resources is – competition is what determines this.

My other area of expertise is history, particularly 20th century history. Again; yours, I infer, is not. To imply that communism did not lead to wide-spread poverty is outrageous. More people starved to death in Communist Russia than died in German concentration camps. The reason? It’s not that Russia wasn’t producing enough – they were a leading exporter of grain during this period. It’s that communism is inherently inept when it comes to resource allocation.

And no, people weren’t living in tents in San Francisco; they were living in tenements in Moscow, with half a dozen family squeezed into a one-bedroom apartment. Here’s the difference – nearly everyone was living under these conditions in Russia, with no chance for advancement or improvement. Under American during the Great Depression, the problem was that work was hard to come by. Under the Soviet Union during the same time – and for the next fifty years – everyone worked, and yet everyone was poor.

Until you present some evidence to back-up your claims – which, I’m afraid to say, you won’t be able to – I’m removing those qualifications from capitalism.

Look, I’m not arguing which economic system is superior. Socialism and communism, it could be argued, are more ‘moral’ than capitalism. But capitalism is more efficient. Period.--Xiaphias 18:14, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the communist regimes were terrible and that the western style of economy is preferable. I wrote the section about westernization and globalization and i stated there that the communist regimes and the welfare states were unsuccesful, because it led to an economic recession. Given the present technological circumstances and the large worldpopulation, i think that we can't do without capitalism. The point that i like to make is that capitalism has it side-effects just like socialism. There are 20 homeless sleeping on the street, just a hundred meters from where i am now in Leiden, Holland. That wouldn't have been possible if politicians had intiated another policy hundred years ago.

Socialism protects the countries of Western Europe from becoming like America. In America there are postmen with a fulltime job who can't afford to pay the rent and have to live on the street or in campers. The wage of american soldiers in Iraq is not enough to pay for the food of their families, so the wife and children have to accept charity of their fellow American citizens. Dutch tourists in New Orleans fled out of the city last year and were shot at by the police. Then they fled into the hotel, because the streets were unsave. This wouldn't be possible in Europe where socialists have made a better poverty policy, so poor (black) people doesn't have to become criminals. To me, these are side-effects of capitalism.Daanschr 20:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Wow, okay, I think I see what the problem here is. Look, I live in America, and I'm a government employee (part-time). Things really aren't half as bad as you believe them to be. I mean, it's not your fault or anything - it seems clear that whatever news channels you're watching paint a very bleak picture of conditions here. It's true that soilders and postmen don't make a lot of money. But they don't starve, or live on the streets. Teachers aren't rich, either; but my father makes a respectable $80,000/year teaching for the public school system. Soilders, it should be mentioned, get free housing on base, and drastically reduced prices on the goods they buy by shopping on post (I live near a military base, and have several friends in the army).

The reason that government employees don't make much has less to do with the downside of capitalism, and more to do with the downside of socialism. Compare the wages of a US Post Office employee with those of a Fed Ex worker, or a public school teacher with those of a private school teacher. The private sector does things better than government, always. The government can only raise wages by simotaniously raising taxes; that doesn't help anybody.

As for poverty - one cause of poverty in America is the minimum-wage law (it's too damn high). A huge cause of crime is the illegality of drugs, and the enforcement of anti-drug laws. Both involve government intervention into the marketplace, a socialist construct. It should be mentioned that, comparatively, crime in America (with exceptions) isn't higher than in the rest of the world[1], [2].

In all seriousness - I suggest you visit the States, if you haven't already. There's less of a differance between America and Western Europe than you might think.--Xiaphias 21:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

In the Netherlands, we have a new problem of the working poor. The house rent is increasing while the mimimum wage remains the same. The welfare state has been downsized, which let to a new group of poor people: those without a drug addict and who are not illegal immigrants, but who can't find a job that pays the rent. It will be very hard to do something for them because of the globalization. The Chinese and Indians get some wealth while they used to be poor, and an underclass emerges in the Netherlands that is not able anymore to pay for the 1st needs. Politically it has major results. The left-wing political parties are being torn apart. The left-wing middle classes want to keep their wealth by supporting tax cuts and economic reforms leading to more capitalism and less government control. Left-wing workers want to stop immigration and promote remigration so the Dutch ethnic nation state will remain as it is. The workers are changing allegiance from the socialists to neonazis or other populist right-wing. I don't think that capitalists will be able to keep them, because they are in favour of keeping the welfare state. The neonazis are in favour of a welfare state and the exclusion of immigrants. Politics in Antwerp in belgium is already nearly dominated by neonazis and Front National in France will gain an enormous amount of votes after the riots of last year. Immigrants nearly all vote for the socialists, including the muslims.

America also has a major problem of the working poor, but there nearly no socialists. I have the impression that many poor Americans are racist or devoutly christian and will not blame middle classes, like the poor people and left-wing intellectuels in Europe do.

Karl Marx wrote in the 19th century about the indifference of the rich. They don't know the suffering of the poor and don't want to know anything about it. This still counts for today. Lots of chocolate is made by slaves in Burkina Faso. Boys captured by companies who raid villages. Boys who try to escape and get got are being murdered. Mothers don't see their children for years. These wouldn't have been possible without capitalism, because there wouldn't have been a need to enslave these boys to produce the chocolate that we eat. It is being sold in our shops. I know this because of the socialist media in the Netherlands. [3]I know about the soldiers families and the postmen because i saw them being interviewed in America on the television. The death toll of New Orleans brought the internal poverty problems of America to the surface.

Being a socialist, i am in favour of a mixed economy at the moment. Keeping some of the dignity and civilization without being competed out of the market. The government is needed (in the first place) to protect the poor, at least that is the opinion of half the Dutch population, who vote socialists. Germany, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, Great britain have very strong socialist movements.Daanschr 16:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

That's the differance between socialist ideology, I suppose; I *don't* believe the government is needed to protect the poor; and I am sure it's incapable of doing so, regardless. You want to give a poor man a dollar? Feel free. But don't give him mine.

Anyways, I could argue the merits of both systems (and, indeed, would love to -- I often have this debate with my socialist friends); but I don't think this is the proper forum. The point stands that Captialism doesn't cause poverty, nor does it cause environmental problems. This are fundemental flaws of modern human society.--Xiaphias 03:47, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Freedom is very important to me so i grant you your opinion. I agree with you that socialism has let to much of sorrow in the world. The funny thing about all ideologies are the inconsistencies. One inconsistency of mine is that i care much about live, but i still eat meat. I will not start an edit war on this topic.Daanschr 15:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I hope to give a more complete response than this sometime in the near future, but I am at this moment deeply distraught by the ignorance implict in much of the discussion here. There exists, in our contemporary world, a myriad of unfortunate and concrete manifestations of the wrath of global capitalism. I do however relish the opportunity that this burgeoning Wikipedia community of information and discourse might represent. Those who understand just how unfairly this world's fate has unfolded should try to use this intellectual space as a platform from which to launch new ideas, a new consciousness. The facts are simple. One fifth of the world's population lives in abject poverty while thousands of American farmers are paid (by the U.S. government) NOT to produce food in order to ensure price stability. Perhaps even more egregiously, tons of grain are dumped into the oceans each year for similar reasons. Contrary to what previous commenters have maintained, lack of supply is never capitalism's problem; historically, it has failed every 30-40 years due to overproduction. The entire industry of advertising is, after all, dedicated to convincing people to sell their precious time for commodities that they don't need. Free your mind.

...that a full history of the world would begin at maybe the formation of the Earth, I would consider renaming the article.

History is the study and interpretation of the record of human societies, this would exclude earlier events such as the formation of the Earth, dinosaurs, etc. - SimonP 01:31, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Do we need this graph in the article? It seems to be one of the worst examples of pseudoscience that I've come across. Speculation and bizarre graphs created with a specific end in mind might be suitable for a theoretical page on

I didn't add it here to promote singularity theory, but since it nicely names and illustrate some milestones in the history of humanity (i.e. history of the world). I was considering adding Image:PPTParadigmShiftsFrr15Events.jpg instead, as it has more sources (Britannica, AMNH - which may be viewed as more of the 'scientific status') but unfortunately it doesn't have the description of what those key points are. Or perhaps the Image:PPTCanonicalMilestones.jpg will be more to your liking? Note that this is not speculation - the graph does not show future, just the past (historical) events. Whether one draws from it a conclusion regarding the technological singularity or not is rather irrelevant here. Regarding social evolutionism use - I think it is at least partially useful when describing the theories of Lewis H. Morgan, Leslie White and Gerhard Lenski (which, you may note, are recognized scientists). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:26, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

The graph does not explicity shows the future, but the way in which it´s organized it guides the reader to a specific conclusion. It´s possible to draw a logarithmic timeline of the world from any point of start. I could put the zero in 1500 and write down what happened in 1490 (discovery of americas) in 1400 (renaissance) 500 (fall of roman empire?) and from there on the graph would be very similar. Or I could put the zero in today and create a script that updates it with the google news headline for the last 10 minutes or 10 hours (or the last 10<up>-100</up> year). The graph is biased to the suggest that there is something special in the next years to come. It does no state that, but it´s drawn to suggest it. It implicitly draws us to that conclusion. Also the Y axis - years to the next event is nonsense, as the "next event" is picked to fit in that date. That´s when biased graphics are dangerous, when they don´t say, but leads you to a erroneous conclusion. That´s why I am taking it out of the article: we can find better things to put there.--Alexandre Van de Sande 02:59, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree, the graph needs too much explanation for an overview article like this one. - SimonP 03:11, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. Your agrument has already been disproven at Talk:Technological_singularity#Biased_Images. If you want more sources and references, there is the pic below, but I find that it is more interesting to use the above one with specific examples. Find me an academic list of key events that is contrary to that? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 10:01, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Piotrus, the graph is fine at Technological singularity, because it accurately describes the theory. On this page, though, we're faced with one of two options:

1. The graph is there to show the impending singularity, in which case it belongs only at the relevant article and not here.
2. The graph is not there to promote the singularity, instead it's just there to show a list of key events, as you say several posts up.

If the second, the question remains: why do we need this graph? If you really just want a list of important events, could not a simple list do? Or, tell you what, could we not write an article on the key events, call it, say, History of the World?

Obviously I'm being facetious, but my point remains. You can't say "whether one draws from it a conclusion regarding the technological singularity or not is rather irrelevant here" — it's not irrelevant, it's the entire point of this graph. A graph gets created where one hand-picks "events", such that the the step between emergence of Eukaryotic cells and the Cambrian explosion is given the same weight as the step between the invention of the computer and the invention of the personal computer, and suddenly you're surprised to discover that it forms a logarithmic curve. As Alexandre points out, it's incredibly easy to create a logarithmic curve — you just pick your "events" appropriately (if computer and personal computer are two different "events", why isn't the emergence of single celled organisms separated from the emergence of multi-celled organisms? What ever happened to fish?? Why the sudden jump to reptiles?).

Whether or not this graph is pseudoscience, it doesn't belong on this article, as it's quite clear that it's purpose is to promote the singularity theory, and not simply to show a list of some important "events" in world history. — Asbestos | Talk 10:21, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I firmly believe in the Singularity, and even I don't think this graph belongs on this page. The members of this set of graphs from a slide presentation by

Raymond Kurzweil that depict major historical events exponentially increasing in frequency are non-NPOV and don't have much place on Wikipedia outside the context of "This is what Ray Kurzweil says." I have doubts about their inclusion in the article Technological singularity (as discussed further on its talk page) and I certainly don't think they belong here. -- Schaefer

14:33, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I have readded the article, now that I have better references. It is not 'what Ray says', this is now a well referenced list backed with data by at least one Noblist - see the image's page for a complete list of references.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:51, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

It doesnt belong in an article of this scope, it's non-mainstream, arguably not even real "history", and needs a great deal of explanation. It belongs in singularity. It certainly doesnt belong on the cover of a booklead section with no explanation text to walk the reader through it. --Stbalbach 00:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

It's based among others on data from EB - they are pretty mainstream in my book. I don't really see a majority for discussing here. Let's have a straw poll vote then - I'll add it to the bottom section for increased visibility..--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 14:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

A few months ago, well ok, a year ago I made a contribution to this article in the 'Age of Kingdoms' section which was later edited by someone who felt it was necessary to add an insult to their edit summary in the form of "the Roman Empire fell in the 400's AD, not the 100's idiot!". Besides being totally uncalled for, insults such as this are a clear violation of the Civility Policy, and yet it is very difficult to effect a change to the comments in someones edit summary. I heartily encourage everyone to make contributing to wikipedia as enjoyable and pain free as possible for everyone. If you disagree with someone's contribution there are far more civil ways to engage your fellow wikipedians in a respectful debate and to otherwise make your views known. Thanks!

Several related articles are currently nominated to be improved on

The Mediterranean Sea had a huge impact for the emergence of Europe, because it made the Greek and Roman Empires possible. The Romans ruled in Northern Europe and Latin culture was expanded by the Roman Catholic Church. I think that the European victory (Western conquest of the world) had nothing to do with the Mediterranean Sea.Daanschr 22:19, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Ah, well there I totally agree. I was refering to the later period that this section discusses - the post-Charlemange period.

"Also, in the tropics, the ever present diseases and parasites, sapping the strength and health of humans, and their animals and crops, were disorganizing factors impeding continuing progress." This statement ignores the corresponding environmental hardships of Europe. Let's not forget the numerous diseases in Europe during this era, especially the Bubonic plauge. The reason that Native Americans were so affected by disease following colonization is because they were afflicted by diseases to which Europeans had already suffered through, and become immune to. With regard to the climate, Europe had its own problems; for instance, the harsh winters of Europe were only equaled by a few other places on Earth (especially if you consider Norway).

The population in Europe was less vulnerable to diseases then the tropical areas. There were more English colonists that went to Barbados then to the present United States for instance in the 17th century. The population of Barbados (in a tropical region) declined continuously, while the population of the United states increased continously. Europeans in Batavia had the same problem as the English in Barbados. Black people were less vulnerable, but they needed to make lots of babies to get the population growing due to diseases. Bubonic plague was a small disaster compared to the tropical diseases.Daanschr 22:19, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Anyways, my point is that saying that Europeans advanced because everyone else was at a comparative disadvantage seems pretty one-sided. --Xiaphias 18:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. I think that the history of ideas is more important then the geographic history to explain the European progress.Daanschr 22:19, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry but that is completely incorrect. Did any of you ever read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond. It is imperative that any discussion of the relative merits and demerits of Europe vs. other parts of the world include the thesis in that book. Ideas only become important to the development of Europe after about 1500 A.D. However, the rise to dominance was mainly due to the early adoption of agriculture and the wide availability of domesticable animals.

Finally, Xiaphas, if the disadvantages faced by other regions in the world do not explain their comparative failure (in terms of what is regarded as success in the "Westernized" world) then what does? Some inherent superiority of Europeans?? 82.60.40.15 07:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Since this article is about human history, should the sections on the Paleolithic Age and Neolithic Revolution be removed and replaced with a pointer to Prehistory? --Brunnock 02:29, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think this would be a good idea. In recent years the rigid boundary between prehistory and history has largely disappeared as historians have increasingly entered the areas once only studied by anthropologists and archaeologists. - SimonP 19:24, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Are you serious? Can you name a university that has combined its history and archaeology departments? --Brunnock 20:55, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Quite serious. The nonsensical division between "history" and "prehistory" was only developed in the late nineteenth century, and even by the 1950s it was all but ignored. Any resistance to historians covering periods before writing has been defunct for many decades. These days you won't find a history of the United States, including Wikipedia's, that doesn't begin with the crossing of the Bearing Land Bridge. Every British history today mentions the builders of Stonehenge, and a modern history of Africa that ignores the spread of the Bantu would be laughable. For the most part history departments have simply expanded, and archaeology and antropology departments have been somewhat marginalized. Universities around the world have also been invreasingly taking a multidisciplinary approach. At the University of Toronto, where I studied, Middle Eastern archaeology, anthropology, linguistics and history are all merged into the "Near and Middle Eastern Studies Department." - SimonP 01:21, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

According to the University of Toronto's website, the History department doesn't teach any classes in Prehistory, Big History, or Archaeology. The University maintains separate History and Archaeology departments.

Wikipedia's History article states: Historians limit their study to events that have been recorded since the introduction of the earliest known written and historical records...Events before then are called prehistory, a period informed by the fields of palaeontology and archaeology. The Prehistory article corroborates this.

The way I see it, you can rewrite the History and Prehistory articles to reflect your view. Or we can modify this article to reflect those articles. --Brunnock 02:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually the question is whether we should rewrite pretty much every history article on Wikipedia, as almost all of them begin with prehistory, or correct the history article. I've thus rewritten the history article. - SimonP 05:22, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. The History article has been misusing the term Prehistory for nearly 4 years until you corrected it just now? --Brunnock 21:53, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I'll just add, thank you for pointing out the problem, and SimonP for fixing it. Stbalbach 22:41, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

It's not all that surprising. The history=writing idea is still quite a common simplification. It's like the Renaissance beginning in 1453, a fact that still appears in many high school text books, and even many university ones, but which hasn't been accepted by historians for decades. Still every few weeks someone alters the intro of the Italian Renaissance article to change 14th century to 15th century. - SimonP 23:18, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Also see Big History and World History, both approaches common now not only in Universities but public high schools. As an example, the Celts left no written record, nor did many of the North American and other peoples around the world, so the "writen record only" approach doesnt work for world history, it's an increasingly outmoded idea as new evidence comes to light from lots of different places (not just archaeology). Stbalbach 01:46, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

You created the Big History article a little more than 3 months ago. Your article states that the first Big History book was written less than 10 years ago. I'm not knocking Big History, but it's definitely not mainstream. --Brunnock 02:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

This article doesnt take a Big History approach, so you can ignore it, for the sake of your argument. Stbalbach 05:09, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The difference between history and prehistory has to do with the sources used, or the method of research. Many historians think it is important to use knowledge from Archeology, psychology, economy, sociology, anthropology and other fields to find the truth about what happened in the past. This is dominant in the history science since the 1960s.--Daanschr 21:28, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I would say "Europe" as we understand it emerged with not with the Crusades but with the formation of Latin Christendom in the early Middle Ages. The Greco-Roman world was medieterreanean-so for example Egypt and North Africa were within the Greco-Roman world, while Scandinavia was outside of it. In the early Middle Ages three distinct civilizations emerge from the Greco-Roman world- Latin Christendom("the West"), Byzantine or Greek Christendom, and the Islamic civilization.

As far as the issue of "Eurocentrism" the simple fact is that for better or worse the modern world(i.e. from 1492 onwards) has been largely shaped by ideas that orignated in or were developed in a European context- for example democracy, nationalism, capitalism, socialism, liberalism, science, and industry. Through exploration, media, and imperialism European powers diffused their culture throughout the world. Thus whether one is European or non-European the study of European history is necessary to understand modernity. It is no more geographically bigoted to acknowledge the enormous European impact in recent centuries, then to recognize that many of the most important world historical religions emerged from the Middle East(e.g. Judaism, Christianity, Islam).

- Pelayo (January 2006)

My view is that technological advances and the taking over of innovations are more important then a countdown of empires that existed in history. Important developments are the agriculturalism, industrialism, and the evolvement of cities and states. This article could focus on how and where this developed and how it spread the world. Also the disintegration of states and dissapearance of knowledge could be described.

Quite right. This article 'misses the point'. World history should emphasize common themes, technological, economic and structural changes. Ideally this article should be rewritten. RCSB 11:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Another possibility is that this article is split in a section describing these developments and a sections describing the most importants empires and rulers.--Daanschr 21:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I like the chapters about paleolithic and neolithic. Afterwards the chapters have unimportant chapter headers. Bronze and Iron age have to do with what archeologues found under the ground. Maybe it is better to emphasize the grounding of states, cities, writing and long range trade. The term classical is a tradition in European history to describe the Greek and Roman civilization, thereby disregarding Egypt, Mesopotmia, China and India who were the real classical empires. I think the rise of Europe has to start with the Portugeese and Spanish voyages. The crusades weren't very spectacular if you compare it with the Arab and Mongolian conquests. Europeans were everywhere while other civilizations remained regional during the period between 1500 and 1800 allthough the European civilization wasn't more advanced as the Euopeans new very well at that time. I think that the industrial age should be the name for a chapter, starting with developments in England leading to an enormous production and later on to the complete domination of the world by Europe (western world) in the 19th century.--Daanschr 16:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think the 'Rise of Europe' began with the Portuguese and Spanish voyages, but with the Industrial Revolution. See here.

Europe was not technologically advanced and couldn't conquer much territories in Africa and Asia, but the Europeans were everywhere, dominating the world seas. Maybe the title of this chapter could be: Worldwide European naval precense, or something like that.--Daanschr 19:50, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I wrote you a reply in 'Rise of Europe'. There I recommended Clive Ponting's World History - A New Perspective. I think any rewriting should follow Ponting's presentation. RCSB 18:27, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I will look for that book.--Daanschr 19:50, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Shall we change this article the two of us, and hope that other people will help us as well? I like to start with hunters/gatherers. The article begins with that history of the world means human history. There have been hunters/gatherers until the 20th century (or until this day). They are only mentioned in the start of the article, before the agricultural society started in some areas in the world.--Daanschr 12:47, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that this improvement project is too big to do alone. I need people to discuss with, especially for the deletion of texts. My opinion is that a text may only be deleted if you put something better in return.--Daanschr 21:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I see there is an edit conflict. What i heard in class was that the Europe was conquered by agrarians, but that the former hunter-gatherers remained the main population, or that the hunter-gatherers took over the culture from the agrarians. There is the genetical evidence that 80% of the European DNA-pool is equivalent to the DNA of the hunter-gatherers. But the indo-european language groups came from outside, which suggests that the European hunter-gatherers were subdued. But again, i'm not an expert.--Daanschr 09:28, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

See #Graph of Singularity for discussion.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 14:01, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep the graph in this article (lead)

1. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 14:01, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
2. Keep. Interesting and notable, IMO. ^N_i^g_h^t_s^t_a^l_lⁱ_oⁿ ✉ 14:35, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
3. Keep, tres cool. This article made me ponder, and I am a supporter of pondering. I don't see how it is controversial, it is only a graph of how events occur in time.--sansvoix 23:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
4. Keep, very interesting.--Fenice 07:07, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
5. Keep. For good or ill, we are manifestly living in an evolutionarily accelerating world. logologist|Talk 23:15, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep the graph in this article, but not the lead

• Remove the graph

1. --Daanschr 17:41, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
2. -- Visiting per RfC. I'm sure the graph represents someone's hard work, but it's more of a history of life on earth than a history of human beings. Its date for the invention of language is questionable and its inherent assumption of progression toward some unnamed goal is inappropriate. Durova 02:33, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
3. This is an intentionally brief, yet comprehensive, overview of human history. Editors must avoid the temptation to fill this article with details and special theories. This graph is too idiosyncratic. -Willmcw 18:45, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
4. Inappropriate for this article. Vertical axis highly questionable. Contains speculation as if fact. A one-dimensional timeline would be reasonable (but not one showing, for instance, eukaryotic cell origins). -R. S. Shaw 20:08, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
5. Not appropriate for an article at this level of generality -- theories of history don't seem to be discussed in this article, and certainly if we are to include them, we should being with the more substantial and well developed theories (e.g. Marxism). Sinply throwing this picture into the lead is POV. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:07, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
6. The graph is interesting, but is trying to make a point which is more appropriate to an article on the
   Technological Singularity than to this article, and the graph goes much further back in time than this article. My preference would be to replace it with a logorithmic timeline of human history which doesn't try to predict any future event. This timeline would include most or all of the events on this graph from Art onwards, and maybe a few more, but doesn't need the vertical scale. There's a Wikipedia tool to create graphical timelines which I can't find at the moment. I'm not sure if it can handle logorithmic scales.-gadfium
   22:26, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

   This is the tool I'm talking about and no, it doesn't appear to support logorithmic scales. It still might be useful to generate a few timelines for the article - maybe an overall one and then a more detailed one for one or two sections.-gadfium 22:33, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

7. Remove the graph but keep the reference to the
   Technological Singularity. Franky, if there anything happens in the last half of 20th century (outside the computer realm), it is slowing down the science and technology and replacement of dynamical capitalist society by stagnant welfare states. The link still maybe relevant. abakharev
   00:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
8. Remove: A graph that includes eukaryotic cells and the Cambrian explosion does not belong in a page that only covers "human history, the first appearance of Homo sapiens to the present day." -- jaredwf 14:26, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
9. Remove. Does not belong in this article. May not belong anywhere, it doesn't really provide information. Of course such a logarithmic line can be made of life's history. I'm just not sure what useful information the marked-out points provide. Rather than "Computer", the person could have put "Holocaust", for instance, and so forth, if they were trying to prove a different point. So seems rather POV, if it goes anywhere it should: (1) go into the singularity article (2) its source be clearly noted, e.g. "According to Kurzweil, this graph shows, and (3) probably have the little picture in the upper left removed, this appears to be a logo, no more appropriate than having graphs with the Exxon logo on them (I can do this if asked). Herostratus 18:08, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
10. Remove. Tres weird. Kaldari 02:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
11. Remove. Not appropriate for this article. Image:PPTParadigmShiftsFrr15Events.jpg at Technological singularity is nicer. —James S. 12:07, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
12. Remove. It is implying a destination which is extremely speculative. The graph is not appropriate for this type of article. Elonka 07:45, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
13. Remove. The content is only scarcely related to the article, while introducing superfluous content. Is this the best image available to illustrate this article? --Andrew c 16:44, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
14. Strong Remove. Anti-historical pseudoscience which belongs on a religious website. Fifelfoo 00:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
15. Has this poll ended? If so can it be closed? If not, and as it's already removed, my vote is Don't put it up again. It shouldn't be up for all the reasons that were discussed when the image was first removed back in July. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 16:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

• Comment

• This poll was done with no discussion beforehand that a poll is the way to settle the issue. Polls can be abused. It's clear from previous communications on this page from many people that this is not an ambiguous issue, the graph is inappropriate for the article. The singularity is a fringe theory that has nothing to do with professional history. Singularity is a controversial theory and not "fact". Singluarity deals with future predicitions, cherry picking certain facts from history to support its pre-concieved notion of what will happen in the future. It is from a professional viewpoint not history at all. It simply does not belong in the article. --Stbalbach 14:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• I agree with user Stbalbach that the theory of singularity can't be used to explane historical events. It doesn't explane backwardness like the extinsion of the dinosaurs, the ice ages and the middle ages. It could be that our future could one of stabilization or backwardness, allthough i think that the technological advance will continue.--Daanschr 17:41, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
• There could be some info about the history of the earth. The world is not only the term for human world.--Daanschr 19:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
• "And how should we vote about the way we should vote?" I see no reason to discuss the need to start a poll. The previous discussion was going nowhere, with what - 3 or 4 people repeating the same arguments - and lost in the middle of this talk, so I decided to start sth new to bring new voices. Yes, Singlularity is a controversial theory, but the data used for the graph come from non-fringe sources, like Britannica or American Museum of Natural History (all 13+ sources listed on image's page now). Usage of such data seems to provide for a fairly unbiased (NPOV) set of data. You are of course free to get more data and create an graph with even more data. Events on this graph illustrate which events are deemed by various scientists (or institutions) to be important in the world's history, and it seems very fitting to this article. That the graph seems to fit the singularity paradigm is not a valid reason for removing it from this article, especially as I cite my sources and you cite your own personal opinon. Please provide data that the graph is biased and untrue.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 22:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

• The graph is cherry picking facts to support a pre-concieved universal idea of how history works, ignoring facts contrary to the theory. That it not history, it is philosophy. It is called
  Hegelian dialectic, or Arnold J. Toynbee. This article is not about theories or philosophy of history, in particular it should not present a single theory as a fact! --Stbalbach
  02:56, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

So your POV is that any list of important events in the history of mankind would be subjective and thus inappopriate for this article, yes?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 12:44, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

• I don't agree with stbalbach about the method of research of historians. Historians use both inductive and deductive reasoning, otherwise the subjects to be studied will be very small. An example of history mainly based on inductive reasoning is history of the world. The subject is so large, that you can't examine all the facts before coming to conclusions. I have critics on Piotrus as well. The problem with predicting the future is that you can't see all the factors that will influence the future. Good examples are the socialist failures of the last two centuries. I think that this article itself needs much improvement. Maybe we could discuss that instead of argueing about a graph.--Daanschr 15:30, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
• I agree with Piotrus and Daanschr, I cannot imagine that historians do not use inductive thinking (or can you prove your claim by citing some source, Stbalbach?). If inductive thinking, or especially the method of forming a singularity, is controversial among historians, I suggest adding a paragraph that explains this issue. (And what's wrong with hegelian dialectic? )--Fenice 07:07, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
• I think there is no controversy among historians about singularity. There are probably no historians (or only a few) who believe in it. I agree that the technological advance will 'probably' speed up, but the reality is that we don't know. There could be a third world war, or an enormous terrorist atack or some kind of natural disaster to prevend further modernization for a long period. Another possibility is that we can't solve some new technological problems, which means that we get stuck with what we have at this moment, or maybe a movement from within the society which blocks technological advance (examples: communism and christian or islamic fundamentalism). History should be about history and not about future.--Daanschr 08:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • First and most important (and I am getting tired of repeating this) this graph makes no prediction about the future, it only illustrates the trend, and is using several different, verifiable and respectable sources. Whether the singularity can occur or not is not discussed in this graph, and is the topic that belings ore at Talk:Technological singularity, rather then here. I have not seen any reasons for its removal backed by any citation, and the chef remover, SimonP, haven't even posted here. I posted this talk on RfC over a week ago, and although few people replied, we have a 2:1 majority for using this graph in lead (granted, 6 votes are not much, but this is all we have). I am therefore restoring this graph, please don't remove it unless there is at least 2:1 opposition.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
• Hegel was not critical enough about the language he used. See Deconstruction.--Daanschr 08:39, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I stand by my earlier comments that this graph is POV nonsense. First off it is not history. One half of the graph covers the period before modern humans. As a consultation with almost any general history work, or even checking the word history in a dictionary, history covers human events the Big Bang and the Cambrian Explosion are matters for scientists not historians. It makes sense then that not one historian is cited as a source for the graph, rather it seems to have been almost wholly based on the work of astronomers and other scientists. - SimonP 23:51, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

For starters, we have the

paleoanthropologist. And presumbably the list by Britannica was compiled by some historians. True, they don't form a majority of querried scientists, and part of the graph is irrelevant (as we deal with human history only in the article), nonethless, I see no reason to call it a POV nonsense and majority of the graph does deal with human history so it is relevant.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk

10:28, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Its thus also not too surprising that these authors, at least those that can be checked online, seem to have little idea of what developments are actually considered important by historians or of the current theories and methodologies that historians now hold. Consider the caravel, which is given a prominent place in this article and by any historian I have read, but seems to have been overlooked. Other developments like the stirrup and heavy plow were far more revolutionary than the computer or genetics have yet been. The Green Revolution may not have been as sexy as space travel or computers, but it has unquestionably had a far more profound effect on far more people's lives, yet it too is ignored. These writers also take a dated and overly simplistic view of history. Many scholars today believe that scientific progress recessed during the Renaissance, and the economy almost certainly contracted during that era. Yet it is listed as a breakthrough on par with the Industrial Revolution. That most, if not all, important technologies develop slowly over a period of decades or even centuries is also ignored. The creation of the steam engine is placed at exactly 1765, ignoring the decades of earlier versions and the subsequent long period of refinement needed before it was truly optimal. - SimonP 23:51, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

The graph is as accurate as possible! The dates used are the dates used by the reputable sources stated. Sure you can go ahead and argue that the steam engine was invented earlier... But wikipedia has to go with the academics. Same thing with the early history, sure the dates may be different, but we have to go with those who know the subject best. And it's a little far-fetched to assume all the dates were pre-thought out to match a sinister plan. I don't see the logic in removing this.--sansvoix 06:29, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

That said, what could the sinister plan be? All this graph shows is that our definition of history is excelerating, if you will. Neat! I don't know about you, but I didn't come to wikipedia to reinforce my current bubble of knowledge. This graph shows there are other ways to look at things. Its not just history either, look at this un-orthodox dow jones graph: [5] But yes, as my source states, such examples should be used with caution, as not to mislead.--sansvoix 06:47, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

You say academics, but you don't answer the critics that no historians have been mentioned, who support this graph. These academics are academics, because they are good in math. What does that have to do with history? Another comment to the graph is that it is very unclear. I don't know what is meant by it. It shows dots of different colours referring to some modern names and institutes and then we have some kind of grid, which i can vaguely remember of from school. This graph is too much a tech thi9ng, while most people in the world wouldn't understand it. I prefer the graph with key events.--Daanschr 09:19, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

So unless somebody has a degree in history, he is not authoritative enough to be cited here? I am sorry, but those are not valid arguments. Not a single opponent of this graph has provided a single reference to back his POV. And I can't see how exponential function and graphs can be too complex. As a major of not-so-techy economics and sociology I say this is basic stuff (primary school in Poland), and English Wikipedia is not simple English Wikipedia.I prefer the graph with key events - isn't this the one?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 10:46, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

This is becoming to political for me. I'm out of here.--Daanschr 17:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Consider the caravel..stirrup...Green revolution...are overlooked... - oh, have you been able to actually get to the list of what those specific dots mean? If so, please let me know where I can find it so I can add it to the image description page. Many scholars today believe that scientific progress recessed during the Renaissance... - cite your sources, please. This is something not even mentioned in our current article, and I'd love to read about it. Renaissance#Critical_views has some statements, but most of them are unsourced. Even assuming they are true, I see no problem with this: our graph doesn't mind small declines, it is not a perfect exponential function, and so it can - and should - take in any bumps and twists. The creation of the steam engine is placed at exactly 1765, ignoring the decades of earlier versions and the subsequent long period of refinement... - as is explained in the image description (and in referenced, online articles by Modis), such dates were averaged from majority of sources. Apparently the average was in 1765 - not perfect, but this is what existing sources seem to agree upon, and we the graph is using specific years, not periods. Besides, even if you'd move it to 17th or 19th century, it wouldn't made any significant impact on the graph.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 10:38, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a brief mention of the Renaissance decline in this article, though not added by myself. Pretty much any general work on the Renaissance or Renaissance science will present the regression idea, even if some scholars will go on to argue against it. One general text, Renaissance Europe by De Lamar Jensen states that "scholars have looked disdainfully at the entire Renaissance because it contributed so little to scientific knowledge." In terms of economics the backwardness paradigm was developed by Robert Sabatino Lopez. The graph also skips other periods widely considered to be regressive, such as the Roman Empire, the Dark Ages, and even the present. Thomas Homer-Dixon, who has won far more popular and scholarly acceptance than any of the singularity advocates, has spent his entire career arguing that as the problems that face humanity are growing exponentially more complex progress is rapidly slowing. Consider that the number of patents issued in the United States per capita was slowly falling for many years, until very recently when the flood of very easy to receive software patents began. - SimonP 15:51, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

And do you have any proof that 1) those omissions are there (given that we lack the exact descriptions of individual points), and 2) that they would skew the graph, even if they were there? Beacuse I think that given our current info those events may well be covered there as the graphs has points scattered enough to resemble some ups and downs in various periods, and even some 'downs' would not discredit this function from being exponential. I don't know if Thomas Homer-Dixon is so famous: Google test: "Thomas Homer-Dixon" 38k, "Ray Kurzweil 555k. But, I hear you say, Google may be biased towards popular science and away from 'serious' science? Ok, Google Schoolar test then: "Thomas Homer-Dixon" 74, "Ray Kuyrzweil 512. Last but not least, Kurzweil has presented Another graph, that seems to argue for a growing trend in patents. Yes, I agree, software patents did contribute substantially to the recent growth, but so what? It just another paradigm shift. You can as well deny that the human speed of travel has incresed, because you cannot count machine transportation, and actually our hunter-gatherer ancestors could run faster due on average ;p--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:19, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

You fail to grasp the problem I was raising with the steam engine example. It is not that the point chosen is wrong or inaccurate, it is that the very notion of picking a single point for each invention is a deeply erroneous idea. Almost all the developments, especially the biological ones, should be represented by long threads. - SimonP 15:51, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I stil fail to grasp it. Would a change from averaged points to long threads change something here? Citation, please.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:19, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that the fundamental problem with this graph (espeically if it was at the beginning of the article) is that it presents a understanding of history not accepted by the majority of historians, archaeologists, etc. I don't think it matters what we think about the graph (which illustrates Technological singularity very well), but it shouldn't be here until it is accepted by the majority of people working in the field, as we're meant to be reporting what other people think, not what our own personal POV's are. --G Rutter 19:21, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

It's also important to realize that this is just one of many possible charts we could have on this article, and each would be supported by a dedicated group of scholars and Wikipedians. We could have some nice graphs from

Thomas Malthus about how humanity has steadily been outstripping our resources and heading for collapse. I'm sure Francis Fukuyama has some nice graphs of the centuries long spread of liberalism, or if there are still any Marxist left we could have a graph of the "inevitable" evolution of human society to a socialist future. - SimonP

22:47, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Whatever the details, we are manifestly living in an evolutionarily accelerating world. (Let's hope we don't succumb to its concomitantly accelerating hazards.) By all means, add a brief methodologic disclaimer to the graph's caption if you must, but reinstate the graph as a visual reflection of observed trends. logologist|Talk 23:07, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The graph needs more than a disclaimer, it needs an entire article. And it has one. There are dozens of ways of looking at world history, this graph represents just one theory. We report on what people do, not what we think they should do. Wikipedia is not a soapbox for pet theories. If you want, create an article about "history theories" - but see historiography first which allready lists a bunch, and Simons list above. --Stbalbach 23:27, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

• I like the x-axis but not the y. I'd quite happily see a one dimensional logarithmic time line with some major events on it. This would neatly sumirise the major events in a visual form. But it would be not have the rather POV interpretation of the graphic. The y-axis just seems fishy to me. --
  Salix alba
  01:39, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed the reference to Ohalo II because it's clear in the cited article by Weiss et al that the cereal grains there are harvested from the wild, not sown. They say explicitly "In sum, the plant remains from Ohalo II prove that broad-spectrum foraging was a strategy for plant collecting as well as for hunting in the UP"

Removed text: Recent findings of considerable quantities of grains in the Ohalo II paleolithic site in modern Israel seem to suggest that cereals had been intentionally sown (without the agriculture-associated additional caretaking activities like fertilization, land clearance, etc.) since 21,000 BC (PNAS 101 p. 9551-9555). Mark Nesbitt 21:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Sumerians

I have modified this text:

If the operative definition of agriculture includes large-scale intensive cultivation of land,

Sumerians, starting ca. 5,500 BC.

because the operative definition of agriculture is in fact the husbandry of domesticated plants (and animals). Agriculture started in the Middle East c. 10,000 years ago, well before the Sumerians. The novel aspects of Sumerian agriculture are irrigation and (increased) labour specialisation, so I have reworded to include these.Mark Nesbitt