Talk:Iraqi conflict

Page contents not supported in other languages.
Source: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
(Redirected from
Talk:Iraqi conflict (2003–present)
)

Scope of Article

If this article is to include the entire scope of the Iraq conflict, it should have its start date at the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in 1990. There has in fact been continuous combat in Iraq since the Coalition counter attack during the Persian Gulf War, with the No-fly zones conflict, Shia uprising, and Kurdish uprising in between the Persian gulf war and the Iraq War. There were constant attacks by Coalition air forces against Iraqi air defense and radar positions throughout the period between the Persian Gulf War and the Iraq War, with occasional larged bombing operations in between such as Desert Strike and Desert Fox.XavierGreen (talk) 02:50, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is the scope for which a consensus was established via talk page discussion at Talk:Iraqi Civil War (2014–present). A new consensus would be needed. But in my opinion, the period from before 2003 is distinct from the one after. EkoGraf (talk) 17:28, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on

Iraq conflict (2003–present). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ
for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018.

regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check
}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:04, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Incompleteness

Hello, As you may have seen on the article, a vast amount of the article's sections are blank. I did do some work on a few articles, but I would be glad if I had support on completing this article. Thanks, User:ST15RMwikipedia 20:46, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image, map no longer useful

The map should be replaced. There is no longer an active war between the two remaining groups which hold territory that can be marked on a map. Maps as main images are only useful if they indicate the changing territorial possessions and/or the locations of conflict. --LukeSurl t c 20:59, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Article title

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the article to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 01:00, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]


The article's title is misleading. The subject of this article are various forms of conflict in Iraq from 2003-present. It's a reasonable umbrella article to have, but it is being misrepresented as a single, ongoing conflict that is named "the Iraq conflict". That is not the case, and is simply a result of editorializing on our end. I know that's not the intent, but that's how it comes across. So, it should really be renamed from "Iraq conflict" to "Conflict in Iraq" to accurately reflect the subject.  Swarm  {talk}  03:27, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Iraq conflict (2003–present) → Conflict in Iraq (2003–present) – Per Swarm. Charles Essie (talk) 20:48, 7 December 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 21:49, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

Now that I think about it, you're right. I still think the title should change though. Charles Essie (talk) 22:56, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
talk page or in a move review
. No further edits should be made to this section.
  • @SmokeyJoe: It's a little odd that you say this article is not a study on forms of conflict within Iraq, that's exactly what it is. It's an umbrella article examining the various conflicts in Iraq which started with the 2003 invasion (it's a poor article, but that's the intent) However, there's never been any credible argument that the article reflects a single conflict called "the Iraq conflict". That's pure fabrication.  ~~Swarm~~  {talk}  21:02, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @SmokeyJoe: Yes, the article is about some conflicts in Iraq, not about "conflicts in general". The word "conflict" can be used to refer to more than one specific conflict in a generalized way, as in a period of conflict. The current title, "Iraq conflict", already does this. Your suggestion that "Iraq conflict" and "Conflict in Iraq" don't mean the same thing is a little bizarre. "Iraq War" and "The War in Iraq" don't have different meanings, nor does any other theoretical example. You're citing some nonexistent English rule that doesn't make any sense. So please quit arguing that "Conflict in Iraq" changes the meaning because the words are in a different order. By your logic, the postpositive adjective could not exist.  ~~Swarm~~  {talk}  07:09, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • You don't think the word "conflict" can be used in a generalized sense to refer to more than one conflict? That comes across as the appropriate wording, IMO. But, to be clear, I am absolutely open to compromise.  ~~Swarm~~  {talk}  02:37, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Death toll

It seems that there is disagreement about the death toll and what the cited source says. The source is confusing because it also includes figures for Afghanistan and Pakistan. I was tripped up by this at first and ended up reverting some correct edits. But if you scroll to the bottom of the page, it lists a total figure of 267,792 — 295,170 deaths specifically for Iraq. There doesn't seem to be any legitimate interpretation of this article to support some of the figures in the million-plus range that have been thrown out here. Tdc42 (talk) 21:10, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the ref for the figure to link directly to the Brown University Costs of War Project report that the Business Insider article was based on. Hopefully this will decrease the confusion. Tdc42 (talk) 23:14, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We should not just use one specific source. We should use different estimates too IbrahimWeed (talk) 12:51, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

death toll is at least million + nerve/psychological damages from fallujah like 2004 deep battles using illegal white phosphorus!

rooted iraqi museums with irreversible damages!!!

en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Iraq_War&diff=1020977252&oldid=1020976991#Damaged_Historic_Institutions — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.195.140.13 (talk) 05:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

End date

I've been edit warring with an IP user, who has since set up an account under the name "IhateCharles" (very mature), who is insisting that the conflict ended in December 2017 simply because Donald Trump said so. He's even insisting there's been no terrorist attacks in Iraq by ISIL since then! Charles Essie (talk) 03:30, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 January 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. I am very sympathetic to the idea that there is always going to be some amount of conflict. Maybe a completely new title, something like Conflict in Iraq after 2003, might be appropriate. But the proposed title did not gain a consensus. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 17:30, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Iraqi conflict (2003–present) → Iraqi conflict (2003–2017) – Is the “conflict” really still ongoing? 100k-1m died in the war from 2003-2011 and many battles and territorial offensives occurred, 15k died from the insurgency from 2011 until 2013 which involved clashes, attempts at land grabs, 150k+ died in the renewed territorial war from 2013 until 2017 which also involved battles and large scale offensives, but the insurgency after 2017 isn’t large scale enough to be considered a “conflict”, very limited attacks occur near kirkuk and in the western desert, and extremely rare attacks occurs in anywhere else such as the january 2018 and january 2021 baghdad bombings. No attempts of land grab, no ISIS territorial control of areas, very limited attacks, i think it’s safe to say the “conflict” has ended. Even some sources refer to post-2017 insurgency as “Post war”. And some articles refer to a “New era of Iraq after ISIL’s territorial defeat” Ridax2020 (talk) 13:58, 29 January 2021 (UTC)—Relisting. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 21:55, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Ridax2020 (talk) 14:00, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources that refer to after 2017 as post-war and as the end of all-out conflict spread throughout all parts of the country: https://www.arabnews.com/node/1793681/amp https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/1988615/from-foe-to-friend-how-iran-transformed-post-war-iraq-ties https://www.tvo.org/video/rebuilding-post-war-iraq https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/in-pictures-iraq-s-struggle-with-environmental-challenges-40336 https://www.unenvironment.org/news-and-stories/story/crude-impact-cleaning-ravages-war-iraq https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/24/the-militias-are-not-allowing-us-back-sunnis-languish-in-camps-years-after-recapture-of-mosul Ridax2020 (talk) 14:07, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly oppose because "post-war" isn't the same as "post-conflict". A low-level insurgency is still a conflict. Charles Essie (talk) 17:49, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, but the conflict continues in very remote areas near Kirkuk and barely the western desert, so i think it’s not full-scale enough to call it the “Iraqi conflict” which makes it seem like it’s widespread in the country Ridax2020 (talk) 19:10, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Given the fact that there almost certainly never will be a point at which ISIS officially surrenders or ends the conflict we are always going to have to decide at some point here whether the Iraq war that began in 2003 is still ongoing based on what is said in reliable sources. I was in two minds as there continues to be at least low-level conflict in Iraq, including air strikes, but what makes my mind up is consistency with
    WP:TOOLONG problem with this article that means we should stop adding to it. As an additional note the fact that we have empty sections in this article that no-one has filled also indicates it's time to draw a line under it rather than adding more sections. FOARP (talk) 11:28, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Exactly, the “conflict” they’re speaking of is only in the rural areas and mountains around kirkuk, and rarely in the western desert. So if this is an “Iraqi conflict”, are large cities such as Basra, Karbala, Najaf, Mosul etc affected? Nope. What about rural areas in south iraq where most of the population live? or northern Iraq other than the very rural areas in kirkuk province and diyala? Still not. The name Iraqi conflict indicates that there is a low level conflict ongoing throughout the country like the Iraqi insurgency of 2011-2013 where there were attacks throughout the country; but that’s not the case here. Ridax2020 (talk) 19:57, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think we also need to see sourcing that anyone actually considers the Iraq war that began in 2003 to be the same as or simply a continuation of the present insurgency.
WP:OR. We can't just say "these are all wars that happened in Iraq so they should be discussed on this page". Even having the ISIL war and the 2003 war on the same page looks dubious, but it looks even worse if we're including the post-ISIS insurgency. FOARP (talk) 20:59, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
The article is not really a violation of
WP:OR, but the fact that it claims the conflict is still ongoing is. Most sources and people with political knowledge always refer to a conflict from 2003 to 2017, they would refer to a “war that has been ravaging since 2003” then call the period after 2017 the “post war period” like in the sources i mentioned. I also remember a few sources that referred to “Iraq recovering from the war” and i could try to look for them if necessary. Ridax2020 (talk) 21:59, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
It's original research/a POVfork to collect unconnected conflicts that are already fully described on other pages under a single page without sources saying that they are the same conflict. What, other than the fact that they are in the same country, is the connection between the 2003 conflict and the 2017 insurgency? They do not even involve the same primary combatants. We need sources saying this - indeed we need sources showing that this is the accepted view of the majority of reliable sources reporting on the issue otherwise this is just
WP:FRINGE. I see plenty of sources saying that the 2003 Iraq War ended in 2011 (e.g., 1 2 3
), perhaps there is an argument that the 2013-17 ISIS caliphate was a continuation of that war (I don't believe the majority of sources simply treat it as a continuation though, but this is not important for the present discussion) but this insurgency is again different.
It is very revealing that the page as it stands is basically a copy-paste of the Iraq War article with some additional sections that no-one can be bothered to fill in. It is also worth noting that there is already an article History of Iraq (2011–present) that covers the post-2011 history of the country. FOARP (talk) 08:31, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Well, as think about Iraqi Insurgency (2017-present), the conflict is going on, although it consists of terrorist attack. We usually call these conflicts as "frozen conflict". -- Wendylove (talk) 01:56, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, that insurgency is only in the rural areas in Kirkuk and diyala provinces and rarely in the western desert. Are the large cities in iraq like baghdad, basra, karbala, mosul etc affected? Nope. Are the rural areas around them affected? Not either. Only the rural areas in the Kirkuk province and diyala. A conflict in a bunch of mountains in a couple provinces doesn’t make sense to me that there is an “Iraqi conflict” which sounds like it’s widespread through Iraq like the iraqi insurgency of 2011-2013. Baghdad has been attacked only 2 times since 2018, and karbala once and that’s it. Even cities in America such as chicago have more intense conflicts lol. Ridax2020 (talk) 09:27, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's why I call it as Frozen conflict. Frozen conflict means that although military campaign of war ended, there is a still threats that war would go because there is no peace treaty signed, so legally the conflict can start again at any moment, creating an environment of insecurity and instability. Does Iraqi insurgents such as Army of the Men of the Naqshbandi Order or White Flags are dissolved, or is there any peace treaty signed with rebel groups? No. And if conflicts ended, why US, Russia, Iran and other countries' military don't leave Iraq and still conduct military operation on Iraq? Like other articles such as Korean conflict or Western Sahara conflict, the word "conflicts" do not mean only clashes between two sides. It is rather used as mixture or combination between two factors, one is political/armed tension between two side and the other is war or battles which can be describe as "military campaign". So, if you give a questions whether Iraqi conflicts has totally ended, then of course it is not. -- Wendylove (talk) 07:00, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This article is clearly constructed as an article about a specific, and single conflict in Iraq. A conflict that (accepting the premise of the page at face-value) reliable sources tell us ended in 2017. We already have a
general history page for Iraq post-2011. FOARP (talk) 21:29, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
Were those sources talking about the whole conflict or just the War in Iraq (2013–2017)? Because if it's the latter, it's irrelevant since that was just a phase. Charles Essie (talk) 23:15, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You can see the sources in the nom. The problem here is you are assuming that there is some over-arching conflict that embraces the present insurgency already evidenced in the sources, but no source says this, and it is for the person making the claim to prove it. FOARP (talk) 08:04, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

War has ended

I mean the war has ended their are little to no attacks the last attack was a year ago in Baghdad 2.49.35.137 (talk) 11:56, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Low-level insurgency ongoing. Just recently ISIL captured a town which needed to be retaken. EkoGraf (talk) 10:15, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 6 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus to move to Iraqi conflict as the

WP:PRIMARYTOPIC
.

This sidesteps the issue of what time period the article should cover; editors interested in considering this further are encouraged to open an RfC. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 15:29, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Iraqi conflict (2003–present) → Iraqi conflict (2003–2017)
– Starting with article-content, this article does not reference any conflict events happening after 2017 so the title is simply inaccurate. The most recent US combat-deployment in Iraq ended in 2021 with major combat operations having ended in 2017. Whilst there are occasional terrorist attacks in Iraq, these are not nation-wide and are instead limited to certain areas, meaning they cannot be part of a whole-country "Iraqi conflict". Since the article lacks any coverage of events after 2017, it also lacks any substantiation that reliable sources treat the present very-low-level insurgency as part of the same conflict that began in 2003. Many reliable sources instead state that the war that began in 2003 essentially ended either in 2017 or before that, these include:

In contrast there is no coverage in reliable sources that I could find stating the opposite - that the period of conflict that began in 2003 is still ongoing. There's also consistency needed with our

original research, which is not allowed. Even from a point of view of usefulness, there is no need for a page that continues the coverage beyond 2017 since we already have a list-page for conflicts in Iraq, a general history page for Iraq post-2011
(which treats the war with ISIS as having ended in 2017).

Realistically speaking, there is likely to be violence in Iraq for some time, but that does not mean that we should treat every minor act of whatever grouping as an extension of the same conflict that began with a US-led coalition's war against Saddam Hussein without any sources that say so. We do not treat the attacks of the Real IRA as an extension of The Troubles. We do not treat the current ISIS insurgency in Afghanistan as part of the same conflict that began in 2001. We do not treat the Second World War in Europe as not having ended until the last of the insurgents in Eastern Europe were hunted down. We do not treat the Pacific War as not having ended until the surrender of Teruo Nakamura or Hiroo Onoda, despite their guerrilla attacks. FOARP (talk) 15:11, 6 March 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 16:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're setting out a position where, regardless of anything any source says about it, the conflict that began in 2003 can never end. Don't we at least need sources explicitly saying that the war that started in 2003 is still ongoing of equal weight to the numerous ones that say it ended already? What is your basis for disagreeing with what those sources say? FOARP (talk) 16:43, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The only reason I said "are to be believed" is that you only cite THREE sources to support the 2017 date. I would not say that is enough to support a change of the page name, and does not fulfill
Desert Storm, but I don't believe that the majority of sources support that view, as they usually tack the beginning to 2003, when the U.S.-led invasion began.Historyday01 (talk) 16:55, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
You do understand that you are pooh-poohing a 2017 end because "only" three sources say it ended then, but zero sources that say that the conflict that began in 2003 is still ongoing have been cited here. Also, you're arguing on the basis of a deployment that ended in 2021 that the war is still continuing now? Would you accept Iraqi conflict (2003–2021) as a compromise? — Preceding unsigned comment added by FOARP (talk • contribs) 17:03, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I would support 2003-2021 tentatively. However, I am not sure if
political conflict, but if political conflict isn't being included as part of the "conflict", then that can be disregarded.Historyday01 (talk) 18:17, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
I think the 2004 Master's thesis has the issue that it is directed to the Global War on Terror, which is a separate topic, has a date that makes it less relevant for what is happening in 2023, and also is a lower-quality source per
WP:SCHOLARSHIP
("Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence"). The 2006 remarks at a conference by David J. Kilkullen are better as a source per se but again the date of the remarks makes it not demonstrative of what is happening in 2023.
Obviously I prefer Iraqi conflict (2003–2017) because, in as much as there is sourcing for an end-date after 2011, it supports an end-date of 2017. However I am willing to accept Iraqi conflict (2003–2021). FOARP (talk) 09:46, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Pinging others involved in previous discussion, when this change was proposed in 2021, at
    according to EkoGraf.Historyday01 (talk) 18:17, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
User:Ceyockey merely re-listed that discussion, I think Ridax2020 is the one you were looking for, or maybe Red Slash? FOARP (talk) 17:03, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I was going to list Ridax2020, but it said they were a sockpuppet. Just removed Ceyockey. Historyday01 (talk) 17:18, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first source says Operation Inherent Resolve is ongoing (the Wikipedia page says its over in Iraq, however), but its own coverage of the conflict ends with Iraq's declaration of victory in December 2017.
    Avilich (talk) 21:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Relisting comment: Editors disagree about the scope of this article; further discussion should focus on what the scope is. The alternative proposal, to move this article to Iraqi conflict, has received insufficient discussion, and would require that article to be notified if editors want to explore that possibility further. to determine if there is a consensus for it at this time. BilledMammal (talk) 16:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC) Corrected 19:33, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The scope of this article is a specific conflict beginning in 2003, and which reliable, independent sources state ended no later than 2017. Statements that this conflict which began in 2003 is still ongoing, or that it was simply the latest "phase" that ended in 2017, are without a supporting source and
    WP:OR
    . The article itself does not refer to any conflict after 2017. An article about the conflict in Iraq that began in 2003 therefore must not state that it is continuing.
Regarding
Iraq conflict as an improvement and if you are counting !votes for it, then put me down as one. FOARP (talk) 19:18, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Ping @Thebiguglyalien, Historyday01, InfiniteNexus, Red Slash, Charles Essie, and EkoGraf: (any I've missed?) for comment particularly on Iraqi conflict as a compromise. FOARP (talk) 15:08, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As the proposer of this title, I obviously still believe this is our best option, per
WP:CONCISE. See also Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine#Requested move 14 March 2023, which was just closed with consensus to move. This is the same situation. InfiniteNexus (talk) 15:43, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Also note, that ping did not go through to anyone but Thebiguglyalien. For pings to work, you must add it to a new line. If you edit or add the template to an existing line of code, it will not ping. Pinging the other users again: @Historyday01, Red Slash, Charles Essie, and EkoGraf. InfiniteNexus (talk) 15:48, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So, to be clear, if the title was "Iraq conflict", what would its time range be? 2003 to 2017? Or broader? Historyday01 (talk) 16:05, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That can be further discussed and decided after the RM. InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:07, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm fine with moving this to "Iraqi conflict"; the disambiguation isn't strictly needed and it avoids the concerns of the opposers, at least whatever isn't a content dispute. The sources don't seem to support the inclusion of post-2017 events, but if the timespan is removed from the title this becomes simply a content dispute and the move request can be concluded more satisfactorily.
    Avilich (talk) 19:39, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Support - The burden is on those claiming this is ongoing. Schierbecker (talk) 17:53, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Do not add more events to this without a source saying they are part of the same conflict that began in 2003

Further events after the ISIS conflict should not be added to this article unless a reliable source can be found saying that they are part of the same series of events that began in 2003. US forces being attacked by Iran/Iran-backed militias in Iraq in 2023 is not obviously part of the same conflict that began in 2003 and saying it is without a source is simply original research. The article for

2023 Israel–Hamas war, it does not say they are part of any conflict that began in 2003. As discussed in detail last year, no source says the conflict that began in 2003 is still ongoing. This is like saying that the Korean war is part of WW2. FOARP (talk) 13:38, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Iraqi_conflict&oldid=1200825464"