Talk:Macedonian denar

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For the disclaimer

The disclaimer is a legitimate Wikipedia convention and was agreed by consensus in

Talk:Republic of Macedonia.--Theathenae 19:56, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply
]

That discussion is about the
Republic of Macedonia article only. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 06:09, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply
]
This article didn't even have a discussion page until four days ago, so the convention has been imported from the main article.--Theathenae 06:16, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
If you two can't resolve the dispute normally, we can simply lock the article and let others decide. Might be the best call, actually. Either way, could you stop this lame edit war? It's cluttering up my watchlist needlessly. ;p Nightstallion 07:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
OK. In the section below are the opinions of the two editors (me and Naive cynic) that are against the disclaimer.

Calling the currency the Macedonian denar and the country the Republic of Macedonia without a disclaimer is tantamount to endorsing a particular POV in the naming dispute.--Theathenae 09:41, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What POV? Everyone calls this currency Macedonian denar!


Against the disclaimer

There are many controversial terms, but a discussion about a controversy should be discussed only in the article dedicated to this, not in every article where the term appears.

Also, Wikipedia by default does not endorse any part in any conflict, so there is no point in putting a disclaimer about an "official position". bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 07:49, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Names you mention appear in thousands of articles in Wikipedia. It is utterly pointless to add such disclaimer in every context they appear, especially considering the fact, that other similar naming controversies exist.

As a minor point, the naming dispute is not between Athens and Skopje, but between countries, i.e. Greece and Macedonia. -- Naive cynic 14:46, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The dispute is between two states; using the name of a country's capital city to denote its government is commonplace. There is nothing wrong with the disclaimer, unless you're promoting the notion that the name of the southernmost former Yugoslav republic is not a matter of international dispute.--Theathenae 15:33, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the need for the disclaimer. The dispute can be read about by anyone who clicks on the link to

Republic of Macedonia in the article. Repeating the fact there is a dispute on any article that has the word "Macedonia" in it seems pointless to me. Angela.
21:33, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

Yes. It's simply off-topic here. This article is not about the naming dispute. bogdan | Talk 20:43, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think the disclaimer should be scrapped - it's just not appropriate to have it in every article mentioning the country. Put the reader first. If people want to read about the political status of the country then they will go to the relevant page. If they want to read about things like lakes or coinage of the country then the page shouldn't be going on about political status. And if some kind of footnote of this kind has to stay in (perhaps in articles closely related to political status) then it should be shorter (with just one link) and better worded. An encyclopedia merely describes, it doesn't "endorse" things. --Cjnm 09:18, 17 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Using the terms Republic of Macedonia and Macedonian(s) without a disclaimer is by definition endorsing a particular point of view in the dispute, because the use of these terms is precisely what the dispute is about. The sole purpose of the disclaimer is to make clear that despite the use of these terms, Wikipedia remains neutral in the dispute. At the moment, the removal of the disclaimer means that one point of view is being favoured over another.--Theathenae 10:53, 17 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Protected

The amount of reverts here is ridiculous. Everyone is in danger violating, and probably has at some time or another, the

t
04:04, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. It was slowly getting ridiculous. ナイトスタリオン…ㇳ–ㇰ 07:19, 3 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Macedonian denar/Vote

Since no progress was achieved since the article was locked, I created a poll page, so we get to a final result valid for all articles in Wikipedia that mention the

Republic of Macedonia
.

The poll is at Talk:Macedonian denar/Vote. bogdan | Talk 19:03, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than jump into another rather meaningless nationalistic vote contest, I'd suggest it would be much better for both sides to try to attract some editors who are neutral to this whole topic and see what they think. Hopefully your listing on
Wikipedia:Current surveys will achieve that. I'll give my point of view for what it's worth. --Cjnm 08:52, 17 August 2005 (UTC)[reply
]

NPOV - Against the disclaimer

The poll is only making a obvious absurd request legitimate, as it is obvious that the current For the disclaimer vote is composed exclusively by Greeks. It will only prove (again, as it did in the Macedonians/Macedonian Slavs poll) that:

  1. Greeks on Wikipedia are far more numerous than Macedonians and
  2. The neutral admins don't give a damn about this issue, generally speaking

Should I address it to the Turkish, Serbian, Bosnian, Croatian, Slovenian or Russian Wikipedia to vote Against the disclaimer just to "prove" "whose tribe is bigger"? A poll would be a good method to resolve technical issues, or even more sensitive issues, if we assume that all participants in the poll are zealous protectors the NPOV policy and its values. However, I am a firm believer, that polling does not apply to Balkan related sensitive issues (when it comes to nationalistic debates people here are actually not respecting basic human rights, let alone NPOV policy)

As I am already listening Theathenae's voice yelling "Greeks are people, too!" I will try to explain my standpoint as much as possible these days. (I'm in a middle of an exam session):

The content of the disclaimer

Wikipedia hasn't got an official position on anything, except on its policies. There is no need for further stressing that Wikipedia hasn't got official position on everything that is a matter of dispute. That is absurd. If Wikipedia accepts this disclaimer, then there would be a need to put a simillar disclaimer on every article mentioning the

Republic of China (legally known as Chinese Taipei
), or to every other naming dispute, and if we get really consistent we should also apply a disclaimer on almost everything that is subject to any kind of dispute.

Moreover, the use of Macedonian(s) in

Macedonian Slavs
" in Wikipedia, because of a simillar poll), or Macedonian whatever was never internationally disputed. Only the name of the republic is officially disputed. One can argue that the issues are linked, and they are indeed linked, but not legally (officially) linked and not subject to an international dispute (binational, perhaps, but not international).

Also, I think that is somewhat hypocritical from the users that wish to add this "no official position" disclaimer to every article , and at the same time using, IMHO, cheap tricks such as Former Yugoslav

FYROM
or whatever.

NPOV issues

Citing

Wikipedia talk:Naming conflict (a policy proposed by ChrisO
, that hasn't faced any serious NPOV objections. The user has received a barnstar for his "work on NPOV in passionate national disputes", among other things):

"Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is. Suppose that the people of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. In this instance, the Cabindans use the term in a descriptive sense: that is what they call themselves. The Maputans oppose this because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term. They take a prescriptive approach to the term, arguing that it should not be used.
Wikipedia should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen – whereas the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective and is not a question that Wikipedia can, or should, decide."

Now, that example is perhaps better to use in the

Republic of Macedonia as it can be seen by a simple Google test - [1], as well in many other sites such as these - [[2]], [[3]], [[4]
(I can't believe that I am actually doing this...)

According to the same article the proposed mechanism to deal with this "naming dispute" would be:

Criterion Option 1
Macedonian Denar 		Option 2
Fyromian Denar/Slav Macedonian Denar
1. Most commonly used name in English 1 0
2. Current official name of entity † 1 0
3. Current self-identifying name of entity † 0 0
1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.
† Use English translation of name, where available

Any comments? I won't be able to answer all the replies, because of the above stated reasons. (Neutrals, please involve in this debate) --FlavrSavr 03:36, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The currency of the country whose provisional name, according to the
Ceylon, until its name was changed to Sri Lanka. Then everyone switched. Wikipedia should stand for clarity of information, and should not take a stand, implicit or explicit, on unresolved issues. We Greeks resent your country's attempt to monopolize the name Macedonia and its derivatives. We feel it is a thinly disguised attempt to appropriate a history and a culture which does not belong to you. Look at the Culture of Macedonia article as an example: is this what has happened to Macedonia culturally in all its millennia-long history? Your country had to change its flag (!) and change its constitution (!), and by doing so it admitted that both of these issues (hugely important for any country) were offensive to its international relations. Does this mean that your country has learnt its lesson? I don't think so. Just a few days ago it threw the Archbishop of the Serbian Orthodox Church in prison for ... performing a baptism! The aging prelate is not even allowed to have a Bible in his prison cell. This is not the behavior of a modern, Western-style republic that respects the rule of law. This smacks of Stalinist-style suppression. Witness the constant whining of your fellow countrymen, about how evil Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs and Albanians hate your country. Bulgarians consider your language the same as their own, Albanians want a chunk of your land, Serbs resent your throwing Archbishop Jovan in jail, and Greeks, well you know .... I am not trying to offend you by saying this, so do not take it personally: there is an American saying that goes "if you meet three a**holes every day, maybe it's you who's the a**hole". Think about it. Chronographos 11:17, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply
]

Nationalist issues...

Perhaps you should check the article named

Denar then, it will not get you there
, either. I do not oppose the idea that the article should be renamed into Denar, Denar (Republic of Macedonia), Denar (Macedonian), Denar (modern currency), Denar (MKD) or whatever. Wikipedia obviously chose to specify what Denar are we actually talking about, and obviously it has chosen a convenience name (which is also used for almost every other currency - I mean seriously, what's the difference between a Yen and a Japanese Yen?). I don't quite understand your argument against convenience names, are you applying that we should put a disclaimer that referring to Americans and all references to American (culture, traditions, army, whatever) is not meant to imply an official Wikipedia position that they should be referred to as Americans? (actually, the Spanish speaking community does oppose that references).

Strawman arguments. Chronographos 23:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply
]
Yeah, as if you offered real arguments to refute. You think that the article itself shouldn't be named Macedonian Denar, but Denar instead: fine. Besides what the hell are you talking about: the opening line of the article is (quote): "The United States dollar, or American dollar". And since we are are there, why does this Wikipedia refer to the
Republic of China as such? (with no disclaimer) --FlavrSavr 02:23, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply
]

"This name may eventually change." Every naming of a country, or anything may eventually change. Should that mean that we should stick a disclaimer to everything? Besides, it clear that only the name of the republic is officially disputed. Your argument that every international institution, (including the UN), government, most major news outlets, and as well encyclopedias refer to Macedonians and the Macedonian language as "Macedonians" and "Macedonian language" because they have to refer to them somehow until the naming dispute (which again, formally inflicts only the name of the republic) is resolved, doesn't give an answer why Wikipedia should refer to them somehow different. (actually, the only argument is, "we Greeks, resent that") IF the changes that you were talking about do occur, THEN we might consider using other terms than those.

Your argumentation hinges on the claim that somehow your people's self-acknowledged right to name themselves however they wish is superior to the Macedonian Greeks' self-acknowledged right that they are true Macedonians as well as the rightful cultural and linguistic heirs of the long Macedonian history before
Paionia, the original ancient name of the area. It is what a beautiful flower was named after. I know you have no connection to the Ancient Paionians, but their descendants are not around anymore, therefore they will not be bothered. Whereas the descendants of the Ancient Macedonians are. Chronographos 23:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply
]
Again, what are you talking about? We trying to monopolize the name? Did RoM somehow objected to the naming of the three Greek provinces as Macedonia? Feel free to build thousand Alexander statues. Feel free to issue your own Macedonian Euro. Did I ever mentioned that I object that Macedonians of Greece shouldn't be referred to as Macedonians, as well? Did I ever claimed that we are same as the Ancient Macedonians? No, Chronographos. I didn't. Our people's self-acknowledged right to name themselves however they wish is guaranteed by the Universal Charter of Human rights [[5]], quote - Everyone has the right to a nationality. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality. Our nationality is called "Macedonian". Greek Macedonians are not a separate nationality from the Greeks, and that is a fact. If they actually were, then we would have had a real problem. Their self-acknowledged right that they are true Macedonians as well as the rightful cultural and linguistic heirs of the long Macedonian history before
Republic of China as such. --FlavrSavr 02:23, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply
]

Your argument that every international institution, (including the UN), government, most major news outlets, and as well encyclopedias refer to Macedonians and the Macedonian language as "Macedonians" and "Macedonian language" because they have to refer to them somehow until the naming dispute (which again, formally inflicts only the name of the republic) is resolved, doesn't give an answer why Wikipedia should refer to them somehow different. (actually, the only argument is, "we Greeks, resent that")

"What you Greeks resent" and the situation of human rights (that are indeed not rosy, but the situation is Greece, the "birthplace of democracy", is far from rosy, as well) I mentioned above is not an argument against the NPOV arguments considering the disclaimer I mentioned above. "We Macedonians resent many aspects of Greek foreign and internal policy" but that is not an argument to put a Wikipedia disclaimer on every god damn term or aspect that we dislike. Those are arguments that are discussed/disputed in another articles. Various aspects of the dispute between Greece and Macedonia are not subject of this debate, and you are only trying to draw the attention away from the subject of this discussion - that being the disclaimer.

See above Chronographos 23:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

To summarize, your arguments against the NPOV aspects I mentioned above can be put in only only sentence - "Those people are a**holes, don't name them Macedonians." Here's what the author of this poll thinks about how "a**hole" we are:

See
Strawman Chronographos 23:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply
]
Saw
Strawman --FlavrSavr 02:23, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply
]
You are right that the poll was not a good idea, since the NPOV is not subject to negotiations, but I have no way to remove those disclaimers: the Greeks keep reverting them and the rest of world avoids entering in the negotiations of Balkan issues like the plague. I was hoping that the poll would attract some people, but instead it attracted the same old Greeks vs. non-Greeks. bogdan | Talk 19:10, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Every non-Greek so far, has either voted against, or neutral concerning this issue. Perhaps you should think about it, as well.

That's simply because just about everyone doesn't care, except you and us. Allow me to consider your "neutral" vote as a rather disingenuous trick. You are far from neutral. You know it and I know it. This is just a touchy-feely game about plucky poor "Macedonians" bullied around by loud-mouthed Greeks. It may work, you know. Chronographos 23:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Chronographos, I never claimed I was neutral. That is precisely why I am asking neutrals to engage in this debate. So far, they tend to disagree with the disclaimer idea. --FlavrSavr 02:23, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Before
personal attacks, read the rest of the section title. There are "abstain" votes there as well as "neutral" votes. Tomer TALK
23:39, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
"Bad faith"? I just call it "survival tactics". I may not endorse it, but I understand why it happens. It's not for me to pass judgement, but I like to call a spade a spade. By profession, I know passive-aggressive behavior when I see it. I can deal with it, treat it (for a fee), but this does not mean I have to like it. Chronographos 23:59, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, isn't you who said that "Obvious as it is that Wikipedia cannot dictate international policy, it is equally obvious that polling does not define truth, regardless of the outcome"? --FlavrSavr 22:24, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I stand by every word. Chronographos 23:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it's plain and simple. Let's suppose that your country reaches an agreement with Greece about the naming dispute, and your country decides to be called with a name different than Macedonia, for example NewName. Then, your currency will be renamed to NewNamian Denar and the disclaimer will have no place. The reasons for the existance of the disclaimer on the Denar wiki or elsewhere, are the same reasons that support the disclaimer in

Republic of Macedonia
. The name Macedonia and its derivatives are part of the political dispute and as long as an agreement is not reached, a disclaimer must exist. MATIA 17:17, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please read What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball. --FlavrSavr 02:23, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I've also read that wikipedia is not a propaganda machine. I thought my above comment on the term Macedonia and the related terms was crystal clear. MATIA 15:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but what if we suppose that the Republic of Macedonia doesn't change its name and reaches a billateral solution of the problem? As for the propaganda machine, you'll be surprised that no one of the people that actually defended the Republic of Macedonia naming of the article is of Macedonian nationality. --FlavrSavr 19:31, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
First of all about the propaganda: I've never implied nor imagined that all those people (i'm not sure about which one article) were all from the same nationality. Let me clarify the propaganda a little bit - WP is not for propaganda, but WP is for history and facts, let's say that facts and propaganda as the two opposite things. So, if that denar is called macedonian, the term macedonian is part of the political naming dispute or part of the negotiations and I said before that if the country name change then the currency name (and anything else related) will change too. What if, one way or the other, the name stays? In that case the terms will be officially recognized, yet some historical facts will not change. If the naming dispute is over, shall we erase from WP all the sections about it? Or will we have some paragraphs statings the facts? I 'm guessing that the second will happen: there was a dispute between the two countries for 17 years, it ended that way etc etc. One other fact, that we already have is the pre-modern (ancient, byzantine, whatever) usage of the name. These are facts too so they should have their place in the encyclopedia. That's what I said about propaganda and I hope I've clarified it by now. MATIA 20:29, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
FYROM faces are different. That they are not willing to confront them explains why this country is in the desperate financial situation it is. Chronographos 19:32, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply
]
I do know exactly what I am doing, that is, giving factual arguments (
Wikipedia:Naming dispute) that are relevant to the subject/discussion, not inventing (like you do), arguments, that are completely irrelevant to the dispute - that is Macedonians being poor brainwashed totalitarian red scum, human rights issues... What else you have in stock? --FlavrSavr 02:23, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply
]
Nothing is irrelevant, my dear FlavrSavr, and nothing of what I said is untrue. The issues discussed did not appear out of the blue: they are the results of human actions, and they have motives and backgrounds that need to be analyzed if such patterns are to be understood correctly. I know this makes you feel uncomfortable, but life is tough sometimes. Chronographos 09:52, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
See appeal to motive (you have given an excellent example!). I don't want to go the Greek motives behind this, they are irrelevant really (yet evident on the poll). --FlavrSavr 11:57, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yes indeed, "this type of argument may be a logical fallacy". The operative word is "may". Chronographos 12:28, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

my humble "neutral" position on all this would be that "'Macedonian denar' is the official currency of the Republic of Macedonia." is perfectly permissible; there are no Greek Macedonian denars that could be confused with it, the Greek Macedonians paying their bus fare in Drachmes Euros. Also seeing the currency symbol is MKD, "Macedonian denar" is simply the name the Skopje government saw fit to give their money. Hey, I use

dab (ᛏ) 07:53, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply
]

You are inverting the issue here,
UN intervenes and sponsors negotiations to resolve the unresolved disputes. The "Republic of Tirol" launches a PR campaign portraying itself as a plucky little country harrassed by big bullying Austria, and a "Tyrolean" user named "FlavoreSavore" gets extremely worried because "The English Wikipedia, and its mirror sites are the most important generators of the Macedonian Slavs term on the net, which is much unfortunate, because it makes the term more "common" than it actually is.". In other words, it's ok for Wikipedia to reflect Google, but Google reflecting Wikipedia???? Noooo, perish the thought! Chronographos 12:28, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply
]
"What's wrong with you, imagining hypothetical situations? Are you turning into FlavrSavr or something?" --FlavoreSavore 19:31, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I am illustrating with an example. I know it makes you uncomfortable. Chronographos 19:46, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
That macedonian-slavs-wikipedia-and-google thing. I've tried on google "macedonian slavs -wikipedia" and I got about 30% less results. Yet it seems that other sites, unrelated with WP mention that term and some of them have a .mk domain. MATIA 20:33, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, but most of them use the term in a clearly medieval and ancient context, namely, Slavs that inhabited the region of Macedonia. Some of term were assimilated into what will become the Greek nation, some of them were assimilated into what will become the Bulgarian nation, while some of them were assimilated into what will become the Macedonian nation. --FlavrSavr 13:57, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also, because some of the participants of this discussion seem to believe that I am somehow IMAGINING that Macedonians (out of vanity, or whatever) find the "Macedonian Slavs" label insulting, I would like to provide with you with this link - [6] - to cite: Macedonian citizens have sent more than 210,000 postcards to the Council of Europe supporting the use of that country's constitutional name Republic of Macedonia, "Utrinski vesnik" reported on 8 April. The postcards reading "Say Macedonia," "Call me by my name!" and "Don't you FYROM me!" were printed by a group of NGOs after the Council of Europe recently decided to refer to the Macedonian language as "Macedonian (Slavic)" and to Macedonian nationals as "persons from the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in official documents. --FlavrSavr 13:57, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

about names

The thing is that there are about 2.000.000 Macedonian Slavs (to use the name of that wiki) and a few more than that, about 2 and a half Macedonian Greeks. The first guys live in your country, and the second guys live in my country. And since those two have the same name but are not the same thing, we wouldn't want anyone to be confused, right? Shouldn't we have that in our mind when, regardless our positions or anything, we try to find a working way? MATIA 20:41, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that, but with all due respect, I don't see how come referring to Macedonians (nation, ethnicity, nationality, people) can make a significant confusion between them and the wider region. Similarly, I can't understand how Macedonian Slavs, Slav Macedonians or whatever, doesn't create confusion between them and the other Slavic speaking people in the region, namely, the Bulgarians. Also, is it by accident or what, that all relevant encyclopaedias (except MSN Encarta), all relevant international institutions, all governments (except Greece and Cyprus), most media outlets don't use the term "Macedonian Slavs"? How come only Wikipedia needs that term? --FlavrSavr 13:31, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Vote for deletion

See:

Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:Macedonian_naming_dispute. Thank you. bogdan | Talk 21:40, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply
]

Unprotected

This article seems to have been protected from editing since August 3--nearly six weeks! I cannot believe that a Wiki can consider editors so dangerous that they must not be permitted to edit an article for so long, so I've unprotected it. --Tony SidawayTalk 08:41, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Article location

As can plainly be ascertained by anybody,

American dollar. I don't see why this case should be any different.--Theathenae 12:18, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply
]

Not really, we have

Swiss Franc rather than Swiss Confederation Franc, we used to have Greek drachma rather than Hellenic Republic dreachma. Anyway, the CIA World Factbook calls it Macedonian denar as does the World Bank. Macedonian denar is this currency's name. REX 12:52, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply
]

The fact remains that Wikipedia does not call this country (simply)
American dollar is that there are other countries that can and do call themselves American. The same disambiguation should apply here.--Theathenae 12:55, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply
]
The World Bank would appear to disagree with you Theathenae. Macedonian denar is this currency's name. Why don't we move
Wikipedia:Naming conflict, where you will see that Macedonian denar is the appropriate name. REX 13:02, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply
]
Well, I guess we could always use
Denar on its own, considering no other country uses that name.--Theathenae 13:02, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply
]
Sounds acceptable. REX 13:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
With appropriate references to the other historical uses of the name, as per the current content of
Denar.--Theathenae 13:06, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply
]
Yes. You do realise that a consensus must be formed though. REX 13:08, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
If you can agree with me,
denar as a Roman currency needs to be changed, as the Latin name was in fact denarius - which has a separate article - not denar. I know nothing of the Croatian or Hungarian denar of the Middle Ages, nor whether they weren't perhaps written or pronounced somewhat differently.--Theathenae 13:12, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply
]

You know that if this page is moved to

Denar, wouldn't that cause confusion with the many countries in the Middle East whose currency is the Dinar? GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 15:28, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply
]

Page move reversions

I've locked the article against moves and given REX and Theathenae 24 hours for 3RR, the content being reverted being the title itself. (And if 3RR doesn't explicitly mention moves, it should. You both knew exactly what you were doing.) I don't care in the slightest what the article title ends up as, you can thrash that out yourselves - David Gerard 13:26, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It does mention moves: Reverting doesn't only mean taking a previous version from history and editing that. It means undoing the actions of another editor, and may include edits that mostly undo a previous edit and also add something new, page moving, admin actions such as protection, etc. bogdan | Talk 13:34, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Reason: FYROM denar is a made-up name with little or no usage in the outside world, where this currency is almost universally referred to as the Macedonian denar.

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

Discussion

Given that the CIA World Factbook, the [7]

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), Macedonian denar is the name to use. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 14:27, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply
]

And, besides that, let us not forget the currency's official name - Macedonian denar (МКД)

HolyRomanEmperor 16:44, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply
]

For those who don't know I like to remind you that Theathenae was the author of the infamous Disclaimer template [8]. Expect the same people who voted for it, to vote Oppose here. --FlavrSavr 16:51, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The current title appears to be unique to Wikipedia: compare the Google results for "Macedonian denar", which is what every English source calls it, and "FYROM denar", which generates 75 unique hits, none of which actually call it the "FYROM denar" and most of which are just search engine spam. —Charles P. (Mirv) 19:15, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

On Wikipedia, there are often conflicts between 'official' names and 'common' names. In this case, no such conflict is apparent—it's a Macedonian denar, pure and simple. Whether the country itself has a naming dispute is immaterial; the currency markets have made their decision on what to call this currency. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:41, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have moved this page to Macedonian denar, as per the near-consensus above. --

talk) 21:09, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply
]

Most common name

bogdan | Talk 13:55, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Name change: Denar of North Macedonia

Under Prespa Treaty, every organisation or entity that is linked to the State, has to abolish the terms "Macedonia" and "Macedonian" and instead replace it with "of North Macedonia". The Government of North Macedonia has already announced that banknotes will start to be reprinted from next year referring to North Macedonia. The central bank in capital Skopje will begin issuing new banknotes by the start of 2020. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.86.136.118 (talk) 18:34, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Either that, although I believe "North Macedonian Denar" would be a good alternative. StevenHal (talk) 16:46, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree – the name is currency is only "denar" and the adjective from the country name is only added commonly. As the country name has been changed the adjective in the name of this article also should be changed. Aotearoa (talk) 16:55, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There'll be a comprehensive RfC deciding on new naming guidelines at
WP:NCMAC; this decision should be taken in light of it – and of course of the practice of reliable sources. As long as external sources haven't begun changing the name, there's no reason we should. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:31, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
]
I prefer "North Macedonia Denar" as mentioned in UNTERM[9]--218.102.153.56 (talk) 09:44, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Currency names and their abbreviations are internationally standardized by ISO 4217. I don't know whether the Macedonian government has any plans to have the international name for their currency updated, but as long as ISO isn't changed, "Macedonian denar (MKD)" will remain the universally used name in practice, and as such obviously also the name we will use here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:41, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually "Macedonian denar" is not the name appeared in ISO 4217. You should see this[10].--218.102.153.56 (talk) 08:38, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not North Macedonian denar, the adjective North Macedonian is not correct. I recommend that we follow this naming and the Prespa agreement to the word, to avoid endless edit wars , vandalisms etc. -- Stevepeterson (talk) 10:40, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

REQUEST FOR MOVE: NORTH MACEDONIA DENAR

I propose moving the article to North Macedonia denar in accordance to Prespa Agreement and the following UN guidelines: "Currency Designation: North Macedonia denar" I recommend that we follow this naming and the Prespa agreement to the word, to avoid endless edit wars , vandalisms etc. -- Stevepeterson (talk) 10:44, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Page title is out-of-date

The title of this page looks out-of-date and North Macedonia has already released coins with the new name of the country. Currency names and their abbreviations are internationally standarized by ISO 4217 as discussed above, and by looking at the up-to-date currency code reported by iso.org in different formats [here], e.g., [XLS] and [XML]. For the currency of North Macedonia, the new official name is denar, and the code remains MKD.

This is not the only case where the name of the country is not part of the official name of the currency. For example, "Kwanza" of Angola, "Lek" of Albania, "Taka" of Bangladesh, and so on. In all these cases, wikipedia uses the adjective derived from the name of the country in front of the currency name for disambiguation, i.e.,

Bangladeshi Taka
.

A similar policy is followed by United Nations that report the currency as North Macedonia denar (as pointed out by Stevepeterson).

I don't have a strong preference between North Macedonian denar (consistent with all other currencies in wikipedia) and North Macedonia denar (used by United Nations), as none of them is official, the official is simply denar. I may slightly prefer North Macedonian denar as I don't see any drawback of it. Another proposal may be to change the title to Denar (MKD) but this is inconsistent to all other wikipedia pages too.

Some examples of recent links (after Prespa Agreement) from the National Bank of North Macedonia confirm that "Macedonian denar" is not used at all. The currency is called denar. Please look at: link 1, link 2, link 3, link 4, link 5

I am looking forward for your proposals. Thanks. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας 17:55, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

  • Support for North Macedonian denar which is used by a large list of reliable sources. Korpalo (talk) 08:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Korpalo Thanks for this deep analysis, may I ask you to add this comment in the move request below that I just created? Sorry for the inconvience. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(talk)
Sure, feel free to delete this comment if necessary. I have removed all the reliables sources that were above because all of them are included in the move request below. Korpalo (talk) 08:58, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 6 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. There is a clear consensus, with evidence presented, that the proposed name is the

WP:COMMONNAME.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:31, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Macedonian denar → North Macedonian denar – The title of this page looks out-of-date and North Macedonia has already released coins with the new name of the country. Currency names and their abbreviations are internationally standarized by ISO 4217 as discussed above, and by looking at the up-to-date currency code reported by iso.org in different formats [here], e.g., [XLS] and [XML]. For the currency of North Macedonia, the new official name is denar, and the code remains MKD.

This is not the only case where the name of the country is not part of the official name of the currency. For example, "Kwanza" of Angola, "Lek" of Albania, "Taka" of Bangladesh, and so on. In all these cases, wikipedia uses the adjective derived from the name of the country in front of the currency name for disambiguation, i.e.,

Bangladeshi Taka
.

A similar policy is followed by United Nations that report the currency as North Macedonia denar (as pointed out by Stevepeterson).

I don't have a strong preference between North Macedonian denar (consistent with all other currencies in wikipedia) and North Macedonia denar (used by United Nations), as none of them is official, the official is simply denar. I may slightly prefer North Macedonian denar as I don't see any drawback of it. Another proposal may be to change the title to Denar (MKD) but this is inconsistent to all other wikipedia pages too.

Some examples of recent links (after Prespa Agreement) from the National Bank of North Macedonia confirm that "Macedonian denar" is not used at all. The currency is called denar. Please look at: link 1, link 2, link 3, link 4, link 5 Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(talk) 14:48, 6 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 20:28, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. I get far more hits for "Macedonian denar" than "North Macedonian denar" on Google books (47 pages of hits vs. 2 pages). Further, the Macedonian government does not refer to the currency as "North Macedonian denar" because it does not use the adjective "North Macedonian" in any context whatsoever. Thus, per
    WP:OFFICIALNAME, the current title is appropriate. In addition seemingly every wiki except with the Greek one continue to use "Macedonian denar". The UN link uses "North Macedonia denar" (no "n" at the end of "Macedonia"). --Local hero talk 16:28, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
You reported 47+2 results but these are not confirmed by the links you provided. I went step-by-step through all the books in the links, and most of them were published before 2019, when the country was Macedonia or FYROM. We should look only on those that were published starting from 2019, and there are only 16 books in Google books. From those 16 books, there are actually 4 main categories
Category 1: TFYR Macedonian denar or historical context
- 3 books report "TFYR Macedonian Denar" and are published by the United Nations in 2019 and 2020, so they don't count in favour of "Macedonian denar".
- 2 books report "Macedonian denar" only once and both in historical context:"The Macedonian denar (MKD) has been pegged to the euro since 1998, ..." and In 2008, the collapse of foreign investments, ... Macedonian denar, ...".
- 1 book reports "Skopje Republic Macedonian Denar".
Category 2: Vague usage of Macedonian denar / North Macedonian currency
- 1 book reports "Macedonian denar" on page 22, as an answer to a question but I cannot confirm that by looking on the same page and book on this preview
- 1 book reports "Macedonian denar" but it also reports "... you have some cash in North Macedonian currency, because there are places that only accept mkd...".
Category 3: Macedonian denar
- 3 books report "Macedonian denar" book1, book2 and book3
Category 4: North Macedonian denar
- 5 books report "North Macedonian denar" book1, book2, book3, book4, and book5
Hence, in Google books in the links that you provided, "Macedonian denar" shows up 3 times (or 5 at most including vague cases), and "North Macedonian denar" shows up 5 times. These books, and many more, are included in the list of reliable sources below. Korpalo (talk) 18:15, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The list of reliable sources (see below) compiled by all users participating in this request, and using the same methodology with the RfC 2019, shows that the current name is not the most common anymore. The total number of references to "North Macedonian denar" or "North Macedonia denar" is 192=(135+57), which is much higher than the only 84 references to Macedonian denar. The 135 total references to North Macedonian denar indicate that a change is necessary in the title of this page (either to North Macedonian denar or to North Macedonia denar) per
    WP:COMMONNAME. Between these two names, North Macedonian denar is used by more reliable sources than North Macedonia denar, namely 135 vs 57. North Macedonian denar is used by the vast majority of reliable sources while the National Bank of North Macedonia calls it with its official name "denar". Korpalo (talk) 20:30, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
I'm not aware of any policy that states common names are determined by excluding sources from more than 3 years ago. Nonetheless, by performing a date range search on Google books from February 2019 to present, I get 4 pages of hits for "Macedonian denar" and just two total hits for "North Macedonian denar".
The government does not use "North Macedonian denar". See here for the National Bank which identifies "Macedonian money" (Македонски пари) as the denar. You will not find "severnomakedonski denar" (северномакедонски денар) used in any government publication. For instance, this recent article from the National Bank calls it "makedonskiot denar" (македонскиот денар; "the Macedonian denar").
Foreign entities also call it the "Macedonian denar" such as the World Bank, the UK, the European Banking Federation, Bank of Moldova, Bank of Albania, etc. The current title is the appropriate title. --Local hero talk 05:07, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for providing sources for "Macedonian denar". "Macedonian money/currency" is not the same as "Macedonian denar". One of the Google books that I report above use "North Macedonian currency" and is not included in favour of "North Macedonian denar". The National Bank of North Macedonia refers to the currency as "denar" which is the official name (except one case referring as Macedonian denar). I added your links for "Macedonian denar" under my comment above to have all the references collected together. One of the links you provided, European Banking Federation has a contributor based in North Macedonia and is excluded from the list per RfC 2019 methodology. Korpalo (talk) 19:28, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: List of Reliable Sources (North Macedonian denar: 135 findings, North Macedonia denar: 57 findings, Macedonian denar: 89 findings)
We use the same methodology with the RfC 2019. We only include links published after February 12, 2019. This is in compliance with the name changes policy which instructs us to give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change is announced, and we don't include sources based in North Macedonia or Greece or their respective diaspora communities.
This list includes all the sources reported by all editors participated in this move request when they fulfil four criteria:
A finding is defined as any kind of reliable source, e.g., webpage or document, that includes one term (e.g., North Macedonian denar or Macedonian denar) at least once. Two findings are one or multiple results found in two different sources. Not two results of the same term in the same source. The number of results in each source is not reported.
North Macedonian denar: 135 findings
  1. International Monetary Fund (2 finding) book1 book2
  2. United Nations (1 reference) UNIDO
  3. European Union (5 findings) EU1 EU2 EUR3 EU4 EU5
  4. Eurostat (9 findings) EST1 EST2 EST3 EST4 EST5 EST6 EST7 EST8 EST9
  5. European Banking Authority (2 findings) EBA1 EBA2
  6. European Training Foundation (1 finding) ETF1
  7. UNICEF (1 finding) Research report
  8. USA Government (7 findings) USG1 USG2 USG3 USG4 USG5 USG6 USG7
  9. UK Government (2 findings) UKG1 UKG2
  10. Government of Montenegro (1 finding) source
  11. JuroSystem (1 finding) source
  12. World Bank (2 findings) WB1 WB2
  13. Public Debt Management Network (1 finding) PDM
  14. Central Bank of the Republic of Kosovo (34 findings) BQK1 BQK2 BQK3 BQK4 BQK5 BQK6 BQK7 BQK8 BQK9 BQK10 BQK11 BQK12 BQK13 BQK14 BQK15 BQK16 BQK17 BQK18 BQK19 BQK20 BQK21 BQK22 BQK23 BQK24 BQK25 BQK26 BQK27 BQK28 BQK29 BQK30 BQK31 BQK32 BQK33 BQK34
  15. Erste Bank, Austria (2 findings) MO1 MO2
  16. Worlds Economic Database (9 findings) WED1 WED2 WED3 WED4 WED5 WED6 WED7 WED8 WED9
  17. S&P Global (2 findings) S&P1 S&P2
  18. NASDAQ documents (2 findings) link1 link2
  19. BTI Transformation Index (1 finding) BTI 2020 Country Report North Macedonia
  20. The Vienna Institute for International Economic Studies (6 findings) WIIW1 WIIW2 WIIW3 WIIW4 WIIW5 WII6
  21. European Haemophilia Consortium (2 findings) EHC1 EHC2
  22. Institute for Field Research (1 finding) irfglobal.org
  23. Wageningen University & Research (1 finding) article
  24. Tourism Planning & Development (1 finding) article/book
  25. NATIONAL BUREAU OF ECONOMIC RESEARCH (1 finding) NBER
  26. Hungarian Telekom (1 finding) HT
  27. EVN, Austria (4 findings) EVN1 EVN2 EVN3 EVN4
  28. PCC Group (4 findings) PCC1 PCC2 PCC3 PCC4
  29. Central Asia Metals PLC (3 findings) CAMPLC1 CAMPLC2 CAMPLC3
  30. Assicurazioni Generali (1 reference) Annual Report
  31. EastEuroCo (1 finding) Labour Market Review
  32. Avaron Emerging Europe Fund (2 findings) EVN1 EVN2
  33. Liberty Adriatic (1 finding) link
  34. Mogo, Latvia (1 finding) source
  35. NBER (1 finding) source
  36. Krka Group (3 findings) KG1 KG2 KG3
  37. Invest in See (1 finding) link
  38. TITAN Global (1 finding) link
  39. Additional (11 findings in) media: Financial Times Currencies results, Company Announcements, Diplomacy & Trade Modest Revenue Increase at Magyar Telekom, Shearman & Sterling LLP source, Focus Economics (Head title on the tab of the page), PhiPost PP1 PP2 PP3 PP4 PP5, Nioga NG1
  40. Google books (3 findings): book1, book2, book3


North Macedonia denar: 57 findings
  1. United Nations (1 finding) UN
  2. U.S. Embassy in North Macedonia (1 finding) USENM
  3. Embassy of Sweden in North Macedonia (1 finding) ESNM
  4. Národná banka Slovenska (2 finding) NBS1 NBS2
  5. WorldBank (3 findings) WB1 WB2 WB3
  6. Worlds Economic Database (1 finding) WED1
  7. Microsoft (1 finding) source
  8. TCXFund (1 finding) source
  9. Deutsche Bundesbank (46 findings) DB1 DB2 DB3 DB4 DB5 DB6 DB7 DB8 DB9 DB10 DB11 DB12 DB13 DB14 DB15 DB16 DB17 DB18 DB19 DB20 DB21 DB22 DB23 DB24 DB25 DB26 DB27 DB28 DB29 DB30 DB31 DB32 DB33 DB34 DB35 DB36 DB37 DB38 DB39 DB40 DB41 DB42 DB43 DB44 DB45 DB46


denar of North Macedonia: 1 finding
  1. European Union Commission (1 finding) EUC


Macedonian denar: 89 findings
  1. World Bank (11 findings) WB1 WB2 WB3 WB4 WB5 WB6 WB7 WB8 WB9 WB10 WB11
  2. International Monetary Fund (20 findings) IMF1 IMF2 IMF3 IMF4 IMF5 IMF6 IMF7 IMF8 IMF9 IMF10 IMF11 IMF12 IMF13 IMF14 IMF15 IMF16 IMF17 IMF18 IMF19 IMF20
  3. European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (1 finding) EBDRD
  4. European Training Foundation (3 finding) ETF1 ETF2 ETF3
  5. Eurostat (1 finding) EST1
  6. Taxation and Customs Union (3 findings) TCU1 TCU2 TCU3
  7. OECD Library (1 finding) OECD
  8. US Government (3 findings) USG1 USG2 USG3
  9. US Embassy in North Macedonia (6 findings) USENM1 USENM2 USENM3 USENM4 USENM5 USENM6
  10. Canadian Government (1 finding) Canada.gov
  11. UK Government (3 findings) UKG1 UKG2 UKG3
  12. Deutsche Bank (1 finding) DB1
  13. Bank of Moldova (1 finding) Official exchange rates
  14. Bank of Albania (1 finding) Official exchange rate
  15. Bank of Slovenia (1 finding) foreign exchange rates
  16. Bank of Lithuania (1 finding) Foreign exchange rates
  17. BTI Transformation Index (1 finding) Report
  18. IBM (1 finding) Emptoris sourcing
  19. NASDAQ (3 findings) NASDAQ1 NASDAQ2 NASDAQ3
  20. S&P Global (7 findings) S&P1 S&P2 S&P3 S&P4 S&P5 S&P6 S&P7
  21. Global Economy (1 finding) Money supply
  22. Coinbase (1 finding) currency converter
  23. Belt and road (1 finding) source
  24. Additional (3 findings in) media: IPN, World Atlas, rekvizitai
  25. Google Books (13 findings, 5 of them are written by the same author): book1, book2,book3, book4, book5, book6 book7 book8 book9 book10 book11 book12 book13


Macedonia denar: 2 findings
  1. Bloomberg (1 finding) source
  2. Mastercard (1 finding) source


denar: 3 findings
  1. WorldBank (3 findings) WB1 WB2 WB3


mixed North Macedonian denar and Macedonian denar: 2 findings
  1. Central Asia Metals PLC (1 findings) londonstockexchange
  2. Lute Credit (2 findings) LC1 LC2


Summary: North Macedonian denar: 135 findings, North Macedonia denar: 57 findings, denar of North Macedonia: 1 finding, Macedonian denar: 89 findings, Macedonia denar: 2 findings, denar: 3 findings Korpalo (talk) 19:25, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
detailed discussion for the list of reliable sources
This list is obviously skewed and flawed. For example, two of the four you attribute to the Macedonian government ones are "Copyright © 2021 by Standard & Poor’s Financial Services LLC." You have obviously put more effort into finding the "North Macedonian" examples so any supposed totals should be taken with a grain of salt. Also, the EBF example I provided calls the country "Republic of North Macedonia" so it is obviously after the name change.
If you were to search for "Macedonian denar", you'd easily find IBM (used in the Emptoris Sourcing Application), the IMF, coinbase, BNP Paribas, Bank of Lithuania, European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, OECD, European Central Bank, Bank of Slovenia, etc.
Bonus, some articles: SEENews, MIAnews, IPN, Global Economy, Bloomberg, etc.
Not sure what you were looking at with the book results I linked, but here are just some of the ones that say "Macedonian denar": book1, book2, book3, book4, book5, book6, book7, book8, book9, book10, and it goes on and on.
All of this is from 2019 to present to suit your arbitrary criteria for what should be considered here. Also, I put this all in paragraph format so as to not make this discussion needlessly long for readers. The current title is the appropriate title for this currency. --Local hero talk 05:14, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Methodology section of RfC states: Only include links published after February 12, 2019. This is in compliance with the name changes policy which instructs us to give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change is announced. Another interesting aspect of the RfC is the statement that says: Please don't include sources based in North Macedonia or Greece or their respective diaspora communities., and I would propose to do the same here. Some of the links you gave use Macedonian denar in context of history and, for example book2 uses TFYR Macedonian denar which refers to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and Bloomberg says Macedonia denar not Macedonian denar. About European Banking Federation, indeed the page has a publication date "Dec 2020", but Macedonian denar is used in context of history. But I agree the list of reliable sources should be extended by the links you gave. Local hero it would be great if you can provide more links for Macedonian denar because you expressed some concerns about "a skewed and flawed list". So you can support your opinion with arguments, but please make sure that the links you add here don't refer to context of history and really use Macedonian denar. I agree that this list is currently incomplete, which is confirmed by the fact that the list has been updated multiple times, and I found more links that report North Macedonian denar which are not included already, e.g., from Financial Times. I also agree that the documents reported as North Macedonian Government are only published by the Government of North Macedonia. Korpalo May I ask you to add these new links in the list of reliable sources and make all the necessary changes suggested by Local hero and me (the comment of reliable sources has your signature and I shouldn't modify it myself)? Thanks for your time. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(talk)
book2 literally calls the state "North Macedonia" and uses a population figure from 2020, it's obviously post-name change. Yes Bloomberg uses Macedonia denar. The EBF is discussing 2019 which is post-name change (the page obviously calls the state North Macedonia). I provided a couple dozen links there supporting "Macedonian denar", feel free to re-read if you like. We could go on searching for links forever; there will not be any ability to demonstrate that "North Macedonian denar" has become the clear favorite term in reliable sources. The best course of action here is to simply add also known as North Macedonian denar to the lead sentence (and maybe "North Macedonia denar" and "Macedonia denar"). --Local hero talk 14:17, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your help. I added the sources, and let me explain you here step-by-step: book5 was already included as "book2", book10 is written by a Professor in North Macedonia, and book1 is written by a native of North Macedonia as stated in google books and cannot be included due to the methodology that is the same with that of RfC (suggested by Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας) that excludes sources from North Macedonia (and Greece) and its diaspora. book3 refers to TFYR Macedonian denar, not Macedonian denar (perhaps this is what was meant by Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας, and not book2. Unfortunately for book2 I get the message "No preview available" and I cannot search either, are you sure is still available? book4 refers to historical context, "In 2018, ...", as already explained. book7 says "No preview available for this page" and the only thing I can see is "Macedonia Skopje Macedonian Denar Macedonian", which can be anything, e.g., Country, Capital, Nationality, Currency, Language, or it can be reference to historical context. I am happy to add book2 and book7 if another user can confirm that Macedonian denar is reported (I cannot see it myself). book6 and book9 look good, and book8 seems to talk about the past, but I included it in the list because it uses the new name of the country.
I included the other reliable sources under Macedonian denar, with two exceptions, BNP Paribas which doesn't have a publication date and the old name of the country indicates that is not after 2019, and European Central Bank because the last page indicates that the text was written more than a decade ago, in 2005, although there is a recent date on the very first page. Nothing else indicates that the text was written recently, maybe it was re-published recently, and all the data look old, so it can be historical context too. If you see another date in the text, I will add it but I cannot find one. I moved all the sources from North Macedonia at the top and added the source of MIAnews there, and I also rephrased sources published by the Government of North Macedonia, because indeed the documents are only published by the government not written by the government. Korpalo (talk) 18:06, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a vote, so please provide rationale rather than an empty statement supporting the move because "Korpalo provided links"... I also provided links. --Local hero talk 16:18, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I did. I think those links have more merit than yours. Weatherextremes (talk) 16:59, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I view that Local hero's links have more merit. The article could be modified to state that 'North Macedonian denar' is also used in some cases. Quite frankly. in the RfC the term "Macedonian denar" is more frequently used. Or the name could change to 'Denar (MKD)' or simply 'Denar' despite it being against the precedent, since it's after all both the official and most commonly used name. Kluche (talk) 17:11, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
outdated "Macedonian denar" list; please see User:Local hero/sandbox for up-to-date "Macedonian denar" list

This seems to be turning into a who-has-more-time-to-scour-the-web discussion. So, here we go for "Macedonian denar", all post-Prespa agreement:

International organizations
  1. World Bank; uses "North Macedonia" as country name and "Macedonian denar" as currency name
  2. World Bank p.21; country name Rep. of North Macedonia, currency name Macedonian denars
  3. World Bank; 6 March 2019; country name North Macedonia, currency name Macedonian denars
  4. World Bank; country metadata shows North Macedonia with Macedonian denar currency
  5. World Bank p.5; 5 Nov 2019, country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  6. World Bank p.21; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  7. World Bank p.ix and p.55; country name North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  8. World Bank Social Insurance Administration Project; 14 Jan 2020
  9. World Bank p.2,3,49; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  10. World Bank 22 Aug 2019; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  11. World Bank p.ii,35; 17 Nov 2020; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  12. International Monetary Fund; 28 Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Exchange Rates
  13. International Monetary Fund; country North Macedonia, click "i" for Macedonian currency info ("Macedonian denar")
  14. International Monetary Fund [11] [12] [13]; 11 July 2022; Technical Assistance Report (download file for "Macedonian denar")
  15. International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus International investment position
  16. International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Depository corporations survey
  17. International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Central bank survey
  18. International Monetary Fund; The Great Lockdown p.118; Apr 2020
  19. International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Coordinated Direct Investment Survey
  20. International Monetary Fund; April 2021; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  21. International Monetary Fund; Oct 2019; Global Manufacturing Downturn, Rising Trade Barriers; North Macedonia, Macedonian denar
  22. International Monetary Fund; Oct 2020; A Long and Difficult Ascent; North Macedonia, Macedonian denar
  23. International Monetary Fund; WEO Database Oct 2019
  24. International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Oct 2021
  25. International Monetary Fund; Statistical Appendix; Oct 2019
  26. International Monetary Fund; Statistical Appendix; Oct 2021
  27. International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Apr 2022
  28. International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook Apr 2021
  29. International Monetary Fund; Statistical Appendix; Apr 2020
  30. International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Oct 2019
  31. International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Apr 2019
  32. International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Apr 2020
  33. Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations Agro-ecological atlas of the Republic of North Macedonia p.v; 23 Jan 2020
  34. European Central Bank 16 Nov 2020
  35. European Central Bank North Macedonia: Small Business Act profile
  36. Eurostat; European business statistics compilers’ manual for international trade in good statistics - trade by invoicing currency; 2022 edition
  37. European Central Bank, Value Limits 1 Jan 2022
  38. European Central Bank, Value Limits 1 Jan 2021
  39. European Central Bank, Value Limits 1 Jan 2020
  40. European Central Bank, Euro Exchange (Figure 3), Apr 2022
  41. European Central Bank, Appendix Exchange Rates (Table 1 and Figure1a-1d), 15 Feb 2022
  42. European Central Bank, Exchange Rates (click "Full Article"), 2020
  43. European Central Bank Reference Metadata; “Last update 25 April 2022”
  44. European Training Foundation; North Macedonia Education Training and Employment Developments 2020
  45. European Training Foundation; Policies For Human Capital Development North Macedonia
  46. European Central Bank; 16 Nov 2020; Reporting instructions for the electronic transmission of Short-Term European Paper (STEP) statistics
  47. European Bank for Reconstruction and Development; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  48. European Central Bank datasets: [14] [15] [16] [17] [18], and dozens more (date published unknown, however the ECB does mark pages "discontinued" example and these are not marked as such)
  49. European Central Bank; 2020 Facts and Figures
  50. World Health Organization copyright WHO 2020, of three authors one is Macedonian
  51. OECD Competitiveness and Private Sector Development Competitiveness in South East Europe 2021 p.191,1449
  52. OECD; 2019 North Macedonia profile [19] [20]
  53. United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief
  • World Bank; prepared by the Independent Evaluation Group (IEG) of the World Bank Group; uses "North Macedonia" and "Macedonian denar" (predates the official name change although the terminology is correct today)
Foreign governments
  1. UK.gov Money
  2. UK.gov Safety & Security
  3. UK.gov Euro Exchange Rates; 15 Dec 2021/6 May 2022
  4. Bank of Albania
  5. Bank of Lithuania
  6. Bank of Moldova
  7. Bank of Slovenia
  8. CIA the World Factbook; North Macedonia country profile
  9. PrivacyShield.gov
  10. US Dept of State [21]; 2020 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: North Macedonia
  11. US Embassy Information on Disposition of Remains; April 2020
  12. US adult Passport renewal
  13. US child Passport renewal
  14. US Country Commercial Guides; North Macedonia 2019
  15. US Ambassadors Fund for Cultural Preservation; 2022
  16. CIA The World Factbook Exchange Rates; country is North Macedonia, currency is Macedonian denars
  17. Sandia.gov
  18. US Embassy [22] Immigrant visa interview
  19. US Embassy; US govt RFQ
  20. US Embassy; US govt RFQ
  21. Securities and Exchange Commission; 31 Dec 2020
  22. Canada.gov; North Macedonia travel advice
  23. Overseas earnings thresholds for Plan 1 student loans, 2022-23 [4 2; UK
  24. Deutsche Bundesbank “legal currency: Macedonian denar”; 22 July 2022 [also uses "North Macedonia denar" (no -n)]
Business
  1. IBM Emptoris Sourcing
  2. NASDAQ, glossary for MKD - Macedonian denar
  3. NASDAQ; North Macedonia updated Mar 2019
  4. NASDAQ; North Macedonia updated Apr 2020
  5. NASDAQ; North Macedonia updated Mar 2019
  6. Financial Times; 20 Apr 2020
  7. Coinbase
  8. BNP Paribas (website is active)
  9. Lute Credit prospectus, p.10; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  10. S&P Global; Austrian insurer acquires 100% of North Macedonia’s Eurolink; 30 Mar 2020
  11. S&P Global; North Macedonia's Komercijalna Banka expects profit drop amid COVID-19 pandemic; 2 Feb 2021
  12. S&P Global; North Macedonia's central bank cancels Eurostandard Banka's license; 13 Aug 2020
  13. S&P Global; Methodology Updates CSA 2021; 9 hits for Macedonian denar
  14. S&P Global; MNX Test Company; 2022
  15. S&P Global; BNK Test Company; 2022
  16. S&P Global; CSV Test Company; 2022
  17. Hong Kong Trade Development Council; North Macedonia country profile
  18. The Globe and Mail [23]; Euro/Macedonian Denar
  19. The Globe and Mail; Jan 2020
  20. The Globe and Mail [24]; Macedonian Denar/U.S. Dollar
  21. The Globe and Mail [25]; Macedonian Denar/British Pound
  22. Business Insider
  23. Visa B2B Payment Controls Master Codes
  24. Verslo Žinios (Lithuanian)
  25. CNET [26]; 26 Jul 2020 application
  26. CNET; 8 Aug 2020 application
  27. CNET; 22 June 2020 application
  28. CNET; 22 June 2020 application
  29. CNET; 22 June 2020 application
  30. CNET; 4 Jan 2020 application
  31. CNET; 29 Sep 2020 application
  32. CNET; 16 July 2020 application
  33. Deutsche Bank; Currency list last updated 20 July 2022 (uses former name of National Bank, but is nonetheless updated post-name change date)
  34. BTI Transformation Index country profile; insource
  35. The Global Economy; insource
Other Books
  1. Political Handbook of the World 2020-2021 (SAGE Publishing) p.1239
  2. Dark Finance (Stanford University Press)
  3. Foreign Direct Investment in the Successor States of Yugoslavia (Springer International Publishing) p.164
  4. Rajasthan PSC (RPSC) - Public Relations Officer (PRO) 2020 p.346
  5. General Knowledge 2020-Competitive Exam Book 2021 p.466
  6. The Military Balance 2021 The International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) p.48
  7. CBSE Junior Assistant 2020 p.268
  8. Young People and the Belt and Road：Opportunities and Challenges in Central and Eastern Europe p.18
  9. BCECEB Bihar AMIN 2020 p.262
  10. Geopolitical Risk, Sustainability and "Cross-Border Spillovers" in Emerging Markets, Volume II (Palgrave Macmillan) p.68
  11. NABARD Assistant Manager (Grade A & B) Prelims Examination (per preview, country is North Macedonia, currency is Macedonian Denar)
  12. RBI Officer Grade B (Phase 1) Vol -1 2021 p.477 (post-Prespa agreement)
  13. Managing Diabetes in Low Income Countries (Springer International Publishing) p.xii (author is likely Macedonian; publisher is not Macedonian)
Other
  1. IPN Press Agency; Moldovan; insource
  2. The Christian Post; insource
  3. World Atlas; insource
  4. Xinhua News Agency; North Macedonia country, Macedonian denars
  5. Michigan State University US Commercial Service North Macedonia
  6. USA Swimming (currency drop-down)
  7. Common Sense Media (currency drop-down)
  8. The Economist (currency drop-down)
  9. Balkan Heritage Field School; North Macedonia (Bulgarian)
  • SEE News (author is likely Macedonian; site is not Macedonian)
  • SEE News (author is likely Macedonian; site is not Macedonian)
International firms with local presence in N. Macedonia
  1. World Bank audit report by Moore Stephens
  2. Grant Thornton audit report, p.42,43,44
  3. World Bank Moore Stephens p.9,10
  4. Moore Stephens p.9,10,17
  5. USAID, report by Macedonian team
  6. European Commission, prepared by Macedonian(s)
  7. European Commission, prepared by Macedonian(s)
  8. European Banking Federation North Macedonia profile; contributor is Macedonian

Can we now agree that there has been *no definitive switch* to "North Macedonian denar", but still adjust the lead sentence to provide "North Macedonian denar" as an alternative name? --Local hero talk 04:52, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

detailed discussion for the list of reliable sources
This looks more like a spam than a list of reliable sources. Most of these links are included in the list of reliable sources maintained by Korpalo. Some other links are before 2019 (for example, World Bank which is the second link of your list). Some other are written by nationals of North Macedonia that cannot be included in the list according to the methodology of RfC, (for example, North Macedonia Travel Guide 2020 p.5). You include multiple references to Macedonian denar in the same document multiple times to make your list look loooooonger (for example OECD Competitiveness and Private Sector Development Competitiveness in South East Europe 2021 p.191, and OECD Competitiveness and Private Sector Development Competitiveness in South East Europe 2021 p.1449). You report 19 times the same link from Unicef although Macedonian denar is not mentioned at all in the text. Macedonian denar is ONLY in the list of currencies, but as you may know, this list is automatically taken from a database. Multiple pages of Unicef with no reference to Macedonian denar have no value. One of them is enough, and perhaps even that currency list doesn't indicate that Unicef uses Macedonian denar, since these codes are defined by IT companies (like the currency codes of IBM Emptoris Sourcing which are used by many applications), and Unicef has no control over it. It's like you report random pages that use google maps to make a point that the country is called North Macedonia; the correct interpretation is that Google uses the name North Macedonia, all the other pages have no control over it. Since you include links from Businesses, I found some other links from businesses published by NASDAQ link1 link2, Avaron Emerging Europe Fund PROSPECTUS, Liberty Adriatic link, Invest in See link, BDO Australia link, TITAN Global link. Korpalo Thanks for the great work you have done. I carefully checked the links from IMF and the Worldbank, and they should be added it in the list of reliable sources you maintain. Perhaps there are some more links that should be added. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(talk)
That World Bank source calls the country Republic of North Macedonia but still calls the currency Macedonian denar so it is valid. The travel guide author is presumably Macedonian (just noted that above), though the publisher is not. So, if you wish to exclude it feel free. I'll then note that your BDO source is also presumably written by a Macedonian, so this becomes tedious. And yes I listed each reference in each source, as you point out with the OECD example. Korpalo is also counting each hit as I understand, not each source. Regarding the UNICEF pages, it lists Macedonian denar on each one, so I included them.
You found more links... me too: NASDAQ, NASDAQ, NASDAQ, Lute Credit, S&P Global, S&P Global, and more hits that I've just found from this site. Or perhaps you'll try to dismiss these as "spam". Just because I'm finding a lot doesn't make it spam.
Do you now realize that we could keep doing this indefinitely? I will continue to find hits for "Macedonian denar" and perhaps the three of you on the opposing side will continue to find hits for your preferred term. No clear change in preference from Macedonian denar to "North" will be proven. So, I'll propose again that we simply add the alternate name to the lead sentence. --Local hero talk 14:47, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, OF COURSE, I don't count every hit, every page I report may have more than one results of "XYZ" but are reported only once. I don't report more than one times pages/documents that may be found in different formats. For example, I will report THIS, BUT NOT THIS and NOT THIS EITHER. In this case I report ONLY the source because the text is identical. Another example, I report THIS, BUT NOT THIS because they are the same.
  • I don't think the slides of BDO (from Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας) is reliable source. I didn't included it in the list. Sorry for that Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας. The CNET links from Local hero don't show anything related to denar to me. Is CNET a reliable source? I don't think so. The boundaries of what is a reliable source are flexible, but those two I would doubt are reliable.
  • We cannot report a menu where you choose the currency, because this is not always/necessarily an option of the publisher rather than an option of the company that provides the software. All the Unicef sources you reported are essentially one single source, and in my opinion we should not go to this direction of unreliable sources, because the name of the currency in the menu is chosen by an external company instead of Unicef. Unicef is a reliable source but not the external company that makes the menu.
  • Did you notice that the sources Moore Stephens and World Bank Moore Stephens are from a company based in Skopje, North Macedonia (www.moore.mk)? Did you notice that World Bank is the same with the first source of Moore (DUPLICATE SOURCE)? The government of North Macedonia is involved in Grant Thornton too. All these documents are biased. In World Bank p.21, there is no publication date and the country is called Macedonia on the first slide. The CNET links don't show anything related to denar to me. Is CNET a reliable source?
  • I didn't check all your sources, but most of those I checked are SPAM. I will really appreciate if you can DOUBLE-CHECK all the sources you report, DON'T REPORT DUPLICATES, DELETE all the sources of your list that I have already added in the list of reliable sources, and then I am happy to include all your CORRECT sources in the list of reliable sources. If there is any doubt whether a source is okay or not, you are more than welcome to ask. Thanks for your help. Korpalo (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
CNET is considered generally reliable. If you want to make a donation to UNICEF with the Macedonian currency, it is called Macedonian denars, that's really the bottom line. If you want to consider all of those as one example, fine. I have included no spam and I also have yet to go through your North Macedonian findings to confirm those. I'll go back through and explain why each one is valid and if it's not I'll remove it from my list.
You seem to avoid my main question here and prefer to go the route of hunting for links endlessly. The three of you are quick to dismiss my findings, but nonetheless you can see there are plenty of sources for Macedonian denar. Thus, why can we not just add "North Macedonian denar" to the lead sentence as an alternate name? --Local hero talk 21:32, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, all the sources of CNET are about applications and Macedonian denar or dinar is reported under "developer's description". The developer of an app is not a reliable source. Nope, we cannot include the menu with the currency that shows up in every website that you can pay in different currencies. Otherwise, we would have to explore millions/thousands of websites (that offer payment in MKD) although all of them go under the umbrella of a limited number of software options, which would not add any value to our research. I would prefer to focus more on the quality of the sources we provide rather than trying to include some potentially unreliable sources. This will allows us to have a correct conclusion. Thanks for your contribution. Korpalo (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 22:28, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Local hero You are trying to cheat by reporting duplicated documents, old documents, and links that do not report anything about denar in a way to enlarge your spam list
Macedonian denar in the CIA links refer to the past,CIA the World Factbook; North Macedonia country profile CIA The World Factbook, and this is clear from sentences such as note: data are in 2017 dollars; Macedonia has a large informal sector that may not be reflected in these data, which use the old name.
The Treasury.gov link doesn't include any Macedonian denar, only Rep. of N Macedonia-Dinar.
The links of US adult Passport renewal and US child Passport renewal don't have a publication date and the name of the country is not used to indicate that is after 12.02.2019.
US Embassy Immigrant visa interview, and US Dept of State travel are the same.
US Dept of State; 2020 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: North Macedonia and US Dept of State Human Rights Report; 2020 or later are the same.
In Overseas earnings thresholds for Plan 1 student loans, 2022-23; UK, the country is the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, which indicates not update.
NASDAQ, glossary for MKD - Macedonian denar does not have a publication or the name of the country reported.
Financial Times; 20 Apr 2020 uses the name Macedonia for the country and the data are from 2018 and 2019; not evidence that is up-to-date.
Lute Credit prospectus, p.10; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar, reports mixed Macedonian denar and North Macedonian denar
From the 6 links of S&P Global, only 1 is valid (number 11). I don't see anything about denar in number 10, and number 12, 13, 14, 15 does not have any result of "North Macedonia", indicating that the document is old or not up-to-date. The copyright 2022 is a different thing that the day the text was written.
From the Globe and Mail list, they are all the same comparing MKD with USD, GBP, and EUR. Of course, we can generate 1000 links for the same. The Globe and Mail; Jan 2020 refers to data of 2019 and 2019, and in that case Macedonian denar is expected to be used.
per Korpalo for all the 8 links of CNET, developer's description is not reliable source, and in addition to that, there is no evidence that the application was developed/updated after renaming the country to North Macedonia
Links with a list of currencies such as Sandia.gov is not reliable source, and all the 19 links of United Nations crisis relief.
8 links of CNET + 19 links of the currency list = 27 links of clear spam
In response to your comment in book North Macedonia Travel Guide 2020 p.5 (author is likely Macedonian; publisher is not Macedonian) I will add here what is online:
North Macedonia Travel Guide 2020 will help you plan your trip to this beautiful country in the Balkans. The guide book contains up to the date information about local cuisine, transportation, interesting places to visit, accomodation options, security and the history of North Macedonia. Written by a native who has tons of useful knowledge, North Macedonia Travel Guide 2020 is a handy and useful passport to the best in North Macedonia!
Do you still think the author is not from North Macedonia and Google books report the author as a native? Should we trust you or Google books? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας (talk • contribs) 07:46, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the remaining and valid links of your list are already included in the list of reliable sources maintained by Korpalo. If you think there is some link that is valid, with publication date, and comes from a reliable source, please add it here to make the addition to the list of reliable sources easier. We cannot go every day through your whole spam list to see if there is any valuable links that we should consider. I spend enough time every day just reading your links, and please respect the time spent by Korpalo to update the list of reliable sources with your links. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(talk)
The CIA World Factbook North Macedonia country page was “last updated: Aug 02, 2022”. Whether they choose to update exchange rates or not, the page is considered updated. The exchange rates page has the country name “North Macedonia” and the currency as “Macedonian denars”. Thus, both links are valid. You’re right about treasury.gov, removed it.
The US Embassy in North Macedonia is in the heading of the passport application pages. There is no date given otherwise, but this is the page individuals will find when seeking to apply for a passport and, within it, they are told that they can pay in “Macedonian denars”.
Fixed the visa interview and human rights duplicates, thanks.
Regarding UK student loans page, this may surprise you but not everyone cared to update the country name to “North Macedonia” everywhere. Yes, you can still find “Macedonia” and “FYROM” in places in 2022. This is one such example. Additionally, the currency is shown as “Macedonian denar”, so it’s valid here.
Not sure why you would expect a date on the NASDAQ glossary. The webpage is clearly not an archive, it is available to anyone searching the active NASDAQ glossary.
The Financial Times page is for the year-ended 2019. Again, whether or not they choose to update the country name is on them. The fact of the matter is this 2019 report, published in April 2020, uses “Macedonian denar”.
The years for the S&P Global ones are literally in the page headers. For #10, sorry it was the wrong link, fixed.
Not sure why it’s wrong to include each different page from the Globe and Mail. The name change occurred in the beginning of 2019 FYI.
The applications from CNET have dates given.
Sandia.gov is a US govt site, it’s reliable.
I’ll de-number the North Macedonia Travel Guide 2020. Thank you. --Local hero talk 19:01, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Local hero, I reviewed all the sources you reported, and updated the list of reliable sources, for every source I added a comment to say ADDED or to explain the reason that was not added. I reviewed the list without having the most recent edits of you because reviewing took me days and it was hard to get every update of you. In the beginning of the list of reliable sources, I add an explanation of the criteria for adding a source in the list. If you think I have missed a NEW document, for which there is no explanation in this list, and only if you are absolutely sure that the source fulfils the criteria, then I will be happy to include your source in the list of reliable sources. But make sure that you don't give me spam.
International organizations:
  1. (ADDED) World Bank; uses "North Macedonia" as country name and "Macedonian denar" as currency name
  2. (Date Dec 20, 2018) World Bank; prepared by the Independent Evaluation Group (IEG) of the World Bank Group; uses "North Macedonia" and "Macedonian denar"
  3. (ADDED) World Bank p.21; country name Rep. of North Macedonia, currency name Macedonian denars
  4. (ADDED) World Bank; 6 March 2019; country name North Macedonia, currency name Macedonian denars
  5. (ADDED) World Bank; country metadata shows North Macedonia with Macedonian denar currency
  6. (ADDED) World Bank p.5; 5 Nov 2019, country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  7. (ADDED)World Bank p.21; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  8. (ADDED) World Bank p.ix and p.55; country name North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  9. (ADDED) World Bank p.2,3,49; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  10. (ADDED)World Bank 22 Aug 2019; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  11. (ADDED)World Bank p.ii,35; 17 Nov 2020; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  12. (ADDED)International Monetary Fund; 28 Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Exchange Rates
  13. (ADDED)International Monetary Fund; country North Macedonia, click "i" for Macedonian currency info ("Macedonian denar")
  14. (ADDED) International Monetary Fund [27] [28] [29]; 11 July 2022; Technical Assistance Report (download file for "Macedonian denar")
  15. (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus International investment position
  16. (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Depository corporations survey
  17. (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Central bank survey
  18. (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; The Great Lockdown p.118; Apr 2020
  19. (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Coordinated Direct Investment Survey
  20. (No results found) International Monetary Fund; April 2020; Request For Purchase Under The Rapid Financing Instrument
  21. (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; April 2021; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  22. (No results found)International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus National Accounts
  23. (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; Oct 2019; Global Manufacturing Downturn, Rising Trade Barriers; North Macedonia, Macedonian denar
  24. (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; Oct 2020; A Long and Difficult Ascent; North Macedonia, Macedonian denar
  25. (ADDED) Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations Agro-ecological atlas of the Republic of North Macedonia p.v; 23 Jan 2020
  26. (16.11.2020 is the date on the first page, but Macedonian denar is reported in the end of the document and the date there is 16.08.2005, Macedonia or North Macedonia is not reported) European Central Bank 16 Nov 2020
  27. (At the bottom it reports a Macedonian contributor "Contributor: Milena Perchinkova [email protected]")European Banking Federation; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  28. (ADDED) European Bank for Reconstruction and Development; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  29. (Duplicated link: same with the link below) OECD North Macedonia profile, currency is Macedonian denar
  30. (ADDED) OECD Competitiveness and Private Sector Development Competitiveness in South East Europe 2021 p.191,1449
  31. (UN and any other webpage/business/organization don't intentionally choose the currency drop-down menu that shows the currencty for each country, the IBM source confirms that there are some default values determined by external companies, reporting the IBM source is sufficient) United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief
Foreign governments
  1. (ADDED) UK.gov
  2. (ADDED) Bank of Albania
  3. (ADDED) Bank of Lithuania
  4. (ADDED) Bank of Moldova
  5. (ADDED) Bank of Slovenia
  6. (No results found) Treasury.gov; 19 Oct 2020
  7. (The document is updated, but Macedonian denar is used only in historical context confirmed by the dates) CIA the World Factbook; North Macedonia country profile
  8. (ADDED) PrivacyShield.gov
  9. (ADDED) US Dept of State [30]; 2020 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: North Macedonia
  10. (ADDED) US Embassy Information on Disposition of Remains; April 2020
  11. (Nothing indicates the page was updated after 2019, the name North Macedonia on the heading sentence is stable for the whole webpage) US adult Passport renewal
  12. Nothing indicates the page was updated after 2019, the name North Macedonia on the heading sentence is stable for the whole webpage)US child Passport renewal
  13. (ADDED) US Ambassadors Fund for Cultural Preservation; 2022
  14. The document is updated, but Macedonian denar is used only in historical context confirmed by the dates)CIA The World Factbook Exchange Rates; country is North Macedonia, currency is Macedonian denars
  15. (Currency drop-down menus are not reliable source per UN explanation)Sandia.gov
  16. (ADDED) US Embassy [31] Immigrant visa interview
  17. (ADDED) US Embassy; US govt RFQ
  18. (ADDED) US Embassy; US govt RFQ
  19. (ADDED) Securities and Exchange Commission; 31 Dec 2020
  20. (ADDED) Canada.gov; North Macedonia travel advice
  21. (The country is reported only as Macedonia (Former Yugoslav Republic)) Overseas earnings thresholds for Plan 1 student loans, 2022-23; UK
Business
  1. (ADDED) IBM Emptoris Sourcing
  2. (Neither publication date nor the country name is reported) NASDAQ, glossary for MKD - Macedonian denar
  3. (ADDED) NASDAQ; North Macedonia updated Mar 2019
  4. (ADDED) NASDAQ; North Macedonia updated Apr 2020
  5. (ADDED) NASDAQ; North Macedonia updated Mar 2019
  6. (The country is reported as Macedonia) Financial Times; 20 Apr 2020
  7. (borderline, ADDED) Coinbase
  8. (Neither publication date nor the country name is reported) BNP Paribas (website is active)
  9. (ADDED, mixed findings of Macedonian denar and North Macedonian denar)Lute Credit prospectus, p.10; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  10. (ADDDED) S&P Global; North Macedonia's Komercijalna Banka expects profit drop amid COVID-19 pandemic; 2 Feb 2021
  11. (ADDED) S&P Global; North Macedonia's central bank cancels Eurostandard Banka's license; 13 Aug 2020
  12. (ADDED) S&P Global; Methodology Updates CSA 2021; 9 hits for Macedonian denar
  13. (ADDED)S&P Global; MNX Test Company; 2022
  14. (ADDED)S&P Global; BNK Test Company; 2022
  15. (ADDED)S&P Global; CSV Test Company; 2022
  16. (Real-time update of currency rates retrieved by external company) The Globe and Mail [32]; Euro/Macedonian Denar
  17. (Reference to old data) The Globe and Mail; Jan 2020
  18. (Real-time update of currency rates retrieved by external company) The Globe and Mail [33]; Macedonian Denar/U.S. Dollar
  19. (Real-time update of currency rates retrieved by external company) The Globe and Mail [34]; Macedonian Denar/British Pound
  20. (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET [35]; 26 Jul 2020 application
  21. (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET; 8 Aug 2020 application
  22. (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET; 22 June 2020 application
  23. (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET; 22 June 2020 application
  24. (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET; 22 June 2020 application
  25. (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET; 4 Jan 2020 application
  26. (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET; 29 Sep 2020 application
  27. (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET; 16 July 2020 application
  28. (ADDED) BTI Transformation Index country profile; insource
  29. (ADDED) The Global Economy; insource
Other Books
  1. (No preview available) Political Handbook of the World 2020-2021 (SAGE Publishing) p.1239
  2. (Macedonian denar used only once in clear historical context, confirmed by the only 7 results of North Macedonia and 99 results of Macedonia used in references to the past) Dark Finance (Stanford University Press)
  3. (ADDED) Foreign Direct Investment in the Successor States of Yugoslavia (Springer International Publishing) p.164
  4. (ADDED) Rajasthan PSC (RPSC) - Public Relations Officer (PRO) 2020 p.346
  5. (The only result is "Macedonia Skopje Macedonian Denar Macedonian", which can be anything, e.g., Country, Capital, Nationality, Currency, Language, or it can be reference to historical context.) General Knowledge 2020-Competitive Exam Book 2021 p.466
  6. (ADDED) The Military Balance 2021 The International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) p.48
  7. (ADDED) CBSE Junior Assistant 2020 p.268
  8. (ADDED) Young People and the Belt and Road：Opportunities and Challenges in Central and Eastern Europe p.18
  9. (ADDED) BCECEB Bihar AMIN 2020 p.262
  10. (ADDED) Geopolitical Risk, Sustainability and "Cross-Border Spillovers" in Emerging Markets, Volume II (Palgrave Macmillan) p.68
  11. (ADDED) NABARD Assistant Manager (Grade A & B) Prelims Examination (per preview, country is North Macedonia, currency is Macedonian Denar)
  12. (ADDED) RBI Officer Grade B (Phase 1) Vol -1 2021 p.477 (post-Prespa agreement)
  13. (The authors is from North Macedonia) Managing Diabetes in Low Income Countries (Springer International Publishing) p.xii (author is likely Macedonian; publisher is not Macedonian)
  • (The authors is from North Macedonia) North Macedonia Travel Guide 2020 p.5 (author is Macedonian; publisher is not Macedonian but probably did not perform much review)
Other
  1. (ADDED) IPN Press Agency; Moldovan; insource
  2. (Clear historical context "I’ve collected from the many countries I’ve visited?") The Christian Post; insource
  3. (ADDED) World Atlas; insource
  4. (I cannot open the link) Xinhua News Agency; North Macedonia country, Macedonian denars
  5. (Currency drop-down menus are not reliable source per UN explanation) USA Swimming (currency drop-down)
  6. (Currency drop-down menus are not reliable source per UN explanation) Common Sense Media (currency drop-down)
  7. (Currency drop-down menus are not reliable source per UN explanation) The Economist (currency drop-down)
  • (The authors is from North Macedonia, confirmed by linkedin) SEE News (author is likely Macedonian; site is not Macedonian)
International firms with local presence in N. Macedonia
  1. (Based in North Macedonia against methodology used by RfC 2019) World Bank audit report by Moore Stephens
  2. (Based in North Macedonia against methodology used by RfC 2019)Grant Thornton audit report, p.42,43,44
  3. (Based in North Macedonia against methodology used by RfC 2019)World Bank Moore Stephens p.9,10
  4. (Based in North Macedonia against methodology used by RfC 2019)Moore Stephens p.9,10,17
  5. (Based in North Macedonia against methodology used by RfC 2019)USAID, report by Macedonian team
Korpalo (talk) 20:44, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Local hero enough with your spam list. 80% of your links violate the methodology of the reliable sources' list. You added the link Deutsche Bundesbank “legal currency: Macedonian denar”; 22 July 2022, which clarifies with the best possible way North Macedonia denar (until 11 February 2019: Macedonian denar) that the currency was called Macedonian denar and the change took effect only after the new name of the country. I should remind two main problems: Local hero should read the documents s/he adds in the list to avoid making it a spam list (Don't include the document of Deutsche Bundesbank as evidence of Macedonian denar, this document is the best possible evidence that the currency was called Macedonian denar but not anymore), and we should all be very careful with the links added in the list of reliable sources. Any reference to data before 2019 are expected to use "Macedonian denar" as this was the currency. Any reference of a mix of old and new data in the same page/sentence isn't evidence that Macedonian denar is used. It's only evidence that Macedonian denar WAS the common name of the currency before 2019. I am fine with including links of not very clear cases, but the links in the list of reliable source should present the information in a meaningful scientific way. Another aspect is that the first North Macedonian denar was released in 2020. If we want to be very precise and strict and improve the quality of the list, we should take into account that parameter too. Local hero most of the links you added in the last 24 hours don't have a publication date, refer to data from the past, or refer to mixed data. If you keep doing that, I will stop looking at your links. The more random links you add the more evidence you provide that you have run out of links, and you provide random links to enlarge your "spam list", which adds no value, and reduces your reputation. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(talk)
It shouldn't surprise anyone if either of the single-purpose accounts try to dismiss ~130+ links. We have yet to receive input from non-Greek (all 3 supporters) and non-Macedonian (the one opposer) editors. The Deutsche Bundesbank link clearly states "Macedonian denar" and "North Macedonia denar"; *both* are evidence against the proposed move here. You are essentially trying to narrow the goalposts here by now suggesting to exclude a full year of the new-name-period (2019) and claiming a "mixed data" issue. The solid majority of what I've provided name the country "North Macedonia" or provide a publication date 2019 or later. Whether some sites did or did not update how they term the denar, the fact of the matter is *they are using "Macedonian denar" today in 2022* (in what I've provided); thus, evidence against the proposed move here. --Local hero talk 14:15, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your ~130+ links is an add-only list; you never remove from it, you only add. It's surprising that Treasury.gov; 19 Oct 2020 is still in your ~130+ spam list (maybe you dismiss that there is no result for Macedonian denar in that source). You still include sources based in North Macedonia that are against the methodology used by RfC. The list of reliable sources now includes all the valid sources of your list, and I gave you a detailed explanation for those excluded in my ~130+ long list of explanations above. How can you accuse me of dismissing your ~130+ links while I made you a comment for each individual of these ~130+ links? I spent about 10 hours to review them. Who excludes a full year? The Deutsche Bundesbank document says that the name of the currency was Macedonian denar before February 12, 2019, and North Macedonia denar after that date, namely after the day the country was renamed to North Macedonia. I suppose you got confused and you don't try to mislead other users with your untrue statements. Everybody who has eyes can read the Deutsche Bundesbank source and judge us. Other editors will judge us based on our true reliable sources. Claims are unimportant. Korpalo (talk) 21:11, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, I have removed a few duplicates the other used had pointed out, so I have indeed been updating it. I've kept a separate section for the sources based on N. Macedonia-based subsidiaries of international firms, so these can be easily included or excluded.
Thanks for reviewing the links, I'll go through and see if there are any you missed (I suspect there are several). Then, I'll review your "North Macedonian" ones.
As I already explained about the Bundesbank source, it provides the legal currency as "Macedonian denar", as "everybody who has eyes" can see. Regardless, the source is *evidence against the proposed move* for which this discussion exists because there is *no mention of North Macedonian denar*. --Local hero talk 02:29, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alright regarding my international organizations links, I de-numbered the one WB one that is technically pre-official name change even though it uses "North Macedonia". I removed the two IMF ones you pointed out. You did miss one IMF one and I also added 10 more IMF ones to my list (here are those ones for convenience):
  1. World Bank Social Insurance Administration Project; 14 Jan 2020
  2. International Monetary Fund; WEO Database Oct 2019
  3. International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Oct 2021
  4. International Monetary Fund; Statistical Appendix; Oct 2019
  5. International Monetary Fund; Statistical Appendix; Oct 2021
  6. International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Apr 2022
  7. International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Apr 2021
  8. International Monetary Fund; Statistical Appendix; Apr 2020
  9. International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Oct 2019
  10. International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Apr 2019
  11. International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Apr 2020
Regarding the ECB links, you get the "16.08.2005" date from Appendix II; the currencies are listed in Appendix I. The document date is 16 Nov 2020. Valid reference. However, the other does appear to be credited to a Macedonian so I moved it to that section of my list. You missed 15+ ECB links and I added another ECB link (here, for your convenience):
  1. European Central Bank; 2020 Facts and Figures
  2. European Central Bank North Macedonia: Small Business Act profile
  3. Eurostat; European business statistics compilers’ manual for international trade in good statistics - trade by invoicing currency; 2022 edition
  4. European Central Bank, Value Limits 1 Jan 2022
  5. European Central Bank, Value Limits 1 Jan 2021
  6. European Central Bank, Value Limits 1 Jan 2020
  7. European Central Bank, Euro Exchange (Figure 3), Apr 2022
  8. European Central Bank, Appendix Exchange Rates (Table 1 and Figure1a-1d), 15 Feb 2022
  9. European Central Bank, Exchange Rates (click "Full Article"), 2020
  10. European Central Bank Reference Metadata; “Last update 25 April 2022”
  11. European Training Foundation; North Macedonia Education Training and Employment Developments 2020
  12. European Training Foundation; Policies For Human Capital Development North Macedonia
  13. European Central Bank; 16 Nov 2020; Reporting instructions for the electronic transmission of Short-Term European Paper (STEP) statistics
  14. European Bank for Reconstruction and Development; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar
  15. European Central Bank datasets: [36] [37] [38] [39] [40], and dozens more (date published unknown, however the ECB does mark pages "discontinued" example and these are not marked as such)
  16. World Health Organization copyright WHO 2020, of three authors one is Macedonian
The OECD links are indeed duplicates. I added the following OECD link to my list (here, for your convenience):
  1. OECD; 2019 North Macedonia profile [41] [42]
I continue to disagree about the currencies listed at UNICEF and other sites. If I wish to donate to UNICEF, they give me the option of donating in "Macedonian denars", not "North Macedonian denars". We're discussing the use of "North Macedonian denar" compared to the current page title. I'll go through more next. --Local hero talk 03:45, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your sources, I have added all of them with some exceptions: (9) from IMF was already in the list, (1) from ECB says "Contributor: [email protected]" based in North Macedonia, (7,8,9 and 10) from ECBF says the data are from 2010 to 2021 (reference to the past), confirmed by (10) which says "Macedonian denar" when refers to the past, and uses "denar (of North Macedonia) in the table", (11 and 12) form ETF has the same paragraph that reports Macedonian denar, borderline case, I added both, (13) from ECB, Page 27 has a date "2005-06-20" and Page 32 has a date "2005-08-16", Macedonian denar shows up between these pages, (14) from EBRD already included, (36-40) from ECB, none of them reports the country name to help us understand if it's up to date, in (16) from WHO, the second author is from North Macedonia confirmed by linkedin. The OECD link looks like a chapter of book2, but I cannot confirm. I added it in the list of reliable sources. Korpalo (talk) 19:30, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the duplicate IMF you pointed out, de-numbered the ECB one with a mk email and the one with the 2005 dates (though I didn't see a date for the currency list). Yes you already had EBRD included, apologies. One of the authors of the WHO source is Macedonian but the other two are not, I think that's fair game. The ECBF data begins in 2010 but extends into 2021, as you state, thus it covers our period of scope here. --Local hero talk 04:07, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • none of them satisfies the
    WP:OFFICIALNAME
    , since the official name is denar
  • both of them satisfy the
    WP:COMMONNAME
    , and we cannot prove what is the most common name (currently 100 results for North Macedonian denar and 65 results for Macedonian denar)
  • WP:MOSMAC
    indicates that Macedonian denar should be preferred
  • North Macedonian denar is in line with the country's new name used in wikipedia, Macedonian denar is not
  • North Macedonian denar is in line with the policy followed for the currency names of other countries in wikipedia, Macedonian denar is not
Overall, North Macedonian denar has no drawback compared to Macedonian denar, and Macedonian denar has no advantage over North Macedonian denar. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(talk) 07:48, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I base my support on the main findings of the present discussion for the requested move:
  • The most important argument for updating the title of this article is uniformity at the level of countries for titles of articles about currencies. For countries other than that at hand, the adjectival reference that precedes the name of their currency directly corresponds to the full name of the country. For instance, the name “South Sudanese pound” is used to refer to the currency of South Sudan. Since the name of the country at hand has recently changed, the title of the article of its currency should also change to reflect the former change.
  • Moreover, based on the list of reliable sources that has been jointly compiled both by contributors for and against the requested move, terms including the adjective “North” are already significantly more common than those without, and this despite the ever present inertia in the usage of past terms (as the one used in the present title) over newly introduced terms (as the one proposed in the requested move) when the context is unofficial. Wikipedia should therefore reflect this change now and not take sides by persisting on the current title.
Due to the lengthy character of the present discussion, I would also like to draw again the attention of readers to the fact that an objective list of sources, containing reviewed sources from both sides and adhering to the relevant Wikipedia policies, is only included in the comment above titled “Comment: List of Reliable Sources”. The above facts are not true for the other lists cited above. Pratishthana (talk) 16:48, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • CONSENSUS COMMENT. 6 out of 6 users unanimously agree that North Macedonian denar must be included as a common name for the currency. 2 users have expressed concerns about North Macedonian denar being the title of the page but their reasoning is not supported by facts/arguments or/and wikipedia policies. The reasoning of Kluche is "Or the name could change to 'Denar (MKD)' or simply 'Denar' despite it being against the precedent, since it's after all both the official and most commonly used name". Local hero claims "per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:OFFICIALNAME, the current title is appropriate". However, none of the claims made by these two users is supported by the reality or/and the reliable sources. The official name is denar. The most common name is North Macedonian denar based on the reliable sources prepared by Korpalo (who supports) and Local hero (who opposes).
Summary of our discussion to reach consensus
Options Official Name Most Common Name Unambiguous Recommended by
WP:MOSMAC
 In line with the new country's name Consistent with the page titles for currencies of other countries
North Macedonian denar NO used in 47% of the reliable source YES YES YES YES
Macedonian denar NO used in 31% of the reliable sources maybe NO NO NO
denar YES NO NO Neutral Neutral NO
Winner denar North Macedonian denar North Macedonian denar North Macedonian denar North Macedonian denar North Macedonian denar

The table shows that North Macedonian denar satisfies all criteria and wins the other two options in all categories. The only exception is the official name, in which denar wins.

The current Macedonian denar does not win in any category.

Given that there is no advantage of the current Macedonian denar versus the proposed North Macedonian denar, if some user still opposes to North Macedonian denar, would s/he like to tell us what are the arguments to support the current title that is not the most common name, may be ambiguous, is not recommended by

WP:MOSMAC, is not in line with the new country's name, and is not consistent with the names used for other currencies? Wikipedia should report facts and be built based on reality. Personal preferences should stay away from this discussion unless they are supported by evidence. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(talk) 09:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

There is an argument to be made if "North Macedonian denar" is recommended by WP:MOSMAC - Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether. The use of neutral formulations such as "of North Macedonia", "in North Macedonia," etc. is preferred and According to the official prescriptions of the Prespa agreement, the adjectival form "North Macedonian" is generally to be avoided. Instead, it suggests the plain "Macedonian" is to be used in some contexts; while in other contexts, both adjectives are to be avoided altogether in favor of the alternative of possessive constructions like "of North Macedonia". Kluche (talk) 17:55, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You focus on two sentences of
WP:MOSMAC
that are misleading:
  • Article names, categories, and templates was not a separate question in RfC 2019. The only meaningful reason for the existence of this sentence is to recommend that neutral formulations should be preferred due to lack of reliable sources. For instance, if we cannot find reliable sources about XYZ, we should use a neutral formulation instead of Macedonian XYZ or North Macedonian XYZ. For XYZ=denar we have a significantly large number of reliable sources that confirm North Macedonian denar is the most common name.
  • There is no case that the
    WP:MOSMAC
    includes a subjective interpretation of the Prespa Agreement. Otherwise, we would like to know in which line of which page of the Prespa Agreement you found this sentence.
On the other hand, I hope you don't intentionally ignore the whole text of
WP:MOSMAC
between the two sentences you reported that recommends North Macedonian. For your convenience, the two sentences are:
  • However, in line with the reliable sources, adjectives may still be used when referring to such institutions in generic terms (e.g. the Greek and North Macedonian prime ministers), especially where the possessive form would be grammatically cumbersome or unnatural. While reliable sources continue to use both plain "Macedonian" and "North Macedonian" in such contexts, the majority opinion in the RfC favored the fuller form, "North Macedonian".
  • In all other contexts, both "North Macedonian" and "Macedonian" may be used on Wikipedia in reference to the country (e.g. a North Macedonian company, or the Macedonian economy). In the absence of a clearer consensus on which of the two to prefer, it is recommended to use the longer form where ambiguity might be an issue (especially on first introducing the topic).
Given that you agree to rename this page, and after this clarification about
WP:NAMECHANGES in contrast to the current title that fulfils none and is out-of-date. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(talk) 17:06, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

 Comment: The "Macedonian denar" references list now resides at User:Local hero/sandbox. There are well over 200 listed, more than half of which are from international organizations, nearly three dozen are from foreign governments, another nearly three dozen from businesses/business news/business entities, just over a dozen books and journals, almost two dozen miscellaneous news articles and company websites. This is not counting others I've compiled that others may find to be "borderline".

Now, I'll finally turn to the "North Macedonian" list. The following should be excluded:

  • One of the two IMF sources is from 2018 and must be excluded, as has been requested of my "Macedonian" sources.
  • The UNICEF source is written only by Macedonians and must be excluded
  • The second UK gov source is duplicated information from the first (same "part 9" for the DKK)
  • What is "db.nomics"? It may call itself the "World's Economic Database" but that is certainly not its name; it is not an international organization. These should all be removed, otherwise I can find a several more comparable sites to "db.nomics" that use "Macedonian denar".
  • Same as above for "PhiPost"
  • The "Tourism Planning & Development" source must be excluded as it is clearly referring to data as recent as 2014
  • There are two links for EVN's 2018/19 reports (one is "Full" and one is "Annual" but the denar page is the exact same and from the same period)
  • Liberty Adriatic is some minor Balkan tourist company, not suitable for this discussion; otherwise, I can find many more that use "Macedonian denar" like this company
  • Your #35 NBER source is duplicated to the NBER source #25
  • One FT source is reproducing the same Central Asia Metals 2018 report

Other notes:

  • By far the largest group of findings is from the Kosovo Central Bank, the central bank of a partially-recognized non-UN member.
  • I find it interesting that you took issue when some of my sources were covering pre-2019 data in addition to post-2019 data, yet it's not an issue when yours do. Of course, these should not be excluded.
  • Three of the US gov sources are actually public filings by one company; still valid just improperly labelled.
  • The USAID source has a Macedonian author among other non-Macedonian authors, same with the IFR source (fine by me).
  • The Juro source is a currency drop-down list, something you took major issue with in my list.
  • One PCC group audit report and one Central Asia Metals report are for 2018, but published in 2019.

Conclusion:

Thus, I conservatively get 207 for "Macedonian denar" and 113 for "North Macedonian denar" (nearly one-third from Kosovo Central Bank) at this point. I essentially rest my case here. "Macedonian denar" remains by far preferred by international organizations, by foreign governments (particularly from English-speaking countries), currency exchange websites, business news sites, online remittance providers, cryptocurrency exchanges, business data sites, Google books results (in quantity and quality), foreign companies, etc. Truly the only edge "North Macedonian denar" seems to have is at the Kosovo Central Bank. We can also see that Google trends indicate "Macedonian denar" is much more popular. I believe it is clear that "North Macedonian denar" has not overtaken "Macedonian denar" as the common name and we can all stop scouring the web now. --Local hero talk 21:58, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

From day 1 you say Macedonian denar is the apropriate title, and since then you report a long list of spam by looking at out-of-date pages that still call the country FYROM and use the old Macedonian denar. Your list for sources of Macedonian denar includes: Deutsche Bundesbank “legal currency: Macedonian denar”; 22 July 2022 [also uses "North Macedonia denar" (no -n)], although the document clarifies that the term Macedonian denar was used only until February 11, 2019. In the beginning I thought you really didn't understand but after weeks playing the same game now I am sure you have different goals. This is one of the many examples that you include to make your spamlist longer, and you keep saying that Macedonian denar is the most common name although you cannot show that with scientific data. North is included in about 200 reliable sources (those of North Macedonian denar or North Macedonia denar) and Macedonian denar can be found in about 100 links of your list. 200 is 2 times more than 100. Even if you find 200 VALID links of Macedonian denar, wou will only show that Macedonian denar is used as often as the new name of the country. You are too far away from that.
I will remind you what you wrote recently here: I do not use "North Macedonian", as MOSMAC generally prefers "Macedonian" or other formulations. In cases of ambiguity, I use neutral formulations. Your answer makes clear that you would fight against the implementation of
WP:MOSMAC. It's sad that after three years, this community cannot implement its own decisions because of some editors like you who make arbitrary decisions. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(talk) 08:12, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Denar

The name of the currency is denar, and "Macedonian" doesn't come before it officially, and no other currency today is called denar. I believe that

German Mark which redirects to Deutsche Mark, but at least Deutsche was part of the actual name. --Juicy Oranges (talk) 21:28, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

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