Talk:Mount Lu

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Wikipedia zh

Li Po as the "white deer man" 218.166.89.8 05:49, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

Well, I can't find a single reference in English that mentions someone called Li You, but there are dozens that mention Li Po/Li Bo/Li Bai. If you can find something definitive, we can fix it, but maybe actually zh: is wrong? pfctdayelise (translate?) 10:57, 17 February 2006 (UTC) (zh:User:罗碧琴)[reply]

Iran?

What does the Iran earthquake have to do with this? Surely Lushan is far enough from Iran that it was not affected... LordAmeth (talk) 07:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Page moves

Transferred from User talk:Gweilo60 § Pagemoves

To editor

ed. put'er there 18:31, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

encyclopedia britannica has a much more difinitive and authoritative title of this mountain, see below
https://www.britannica.com/place/Lu-Mountains
I suggest this mountain title should be changed Lu Mountain. 206.119.37.102 (talk) 16:05, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 14 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Opposing arguments are grounded in COMMONNAME, while the supporting IPs and sock are basing on largely one source, encyclopedia britannica. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 12:13, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mount Lu → Lu Mountain – I did research about this mountain. Encyclopedia britannica has a much more difinitive and authoritative title of this mountain, see below https://www.britannica.com/place/Lu-Mountains I suggest this mountain title should be changed to Lu Mountain 206.119.37.102 (talk) 16:10, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just so you know, I do get what you're saying, however I still think
ed. put'er there 10:41, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The people local to the area speak Chinese. This is an English encyclopedia. It's not the job of random editors to translate terms from one language to the other themselves when reliable sources already attest to translations of those terms. The common name for the English language is the one attested most often in reliable English-language sources: as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources (
WP:COMMONNAME
).
eg. Mount Everest is the common name, not Sagarmatha or Zhumulangma, despite its name in local languages. In this case, English does not use an entirely different name (like "Mount Everest"), but uses a variety of borrowed names including the untranslated "Lushan", the tautological "Mount Lushan", and the translated "Mount Lu". The Ngrams do not conclusively demonstrate which of the variety of names is the most common.
"Mount Lu" objectively translates "Lushan" not "Shanlu". Translations do not have to keep the original word order. Spanish doesn't use the same word order as English, but the correct translation of "carro rojo" is "red car" not "car red". – Scyrme (talk) 11:06, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, okay, I think you've got me. The only language I've ever learned well enough to converse with local people is
ed. put'er there 11:37, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The English translation order is not important, both Mount X and x Mountain or X Shan are being recognised in Wikipedia.
WP:NCCHINA says For places without a well-established English name and have competing names from transliterations of pinyin vs. ethnic minority languages, which is often the case in Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, and Tibet, use the name preferred by Xinhua
or similarly authoritative organs.
Goverment website translates as it as Lushan. www.lsbg.cn Youtuber Serpentza (talk) 12:15, 18 March 2023 (UTC) sock strike – robertsky (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, editor YS, but no, that's not a "translation", it's just the way the Chinese written language is "Romanized". The Romanization (not the translation) is to "Lushan". So it boils down to usage in reliable, independent, English-language sources, and editor Scyrme has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that the sources use "Mount Lu". Again, sorry, but that's an end to it as far as I'm concerned.
ed. put'er there 12:28, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Editor Scryme showed a point that Lushan and mount lu are not sure which is the most widely used, does the editor Scryme showed that it is Mount Lu the most widely used from any reliable sources? If it is, can you help to point out where it is ?
Evn though it maybe not a translation,
WP:NCCHINA doesn't say the the title has to be translation, it says the name preferred by authoritative organs. The government organs does prefer this name Lushan, because it uses Lushan, not Mount Lu, whether it is translation or not. Youtuber Serpentza (talk) 12:34, 18 March 2023 (UTC) sock strike – robertsky (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Sources can be found in editor Scyrme's Oppose rationale above. Here is a quote from NCCHINA:

The default naming pattern is "X Class", e.g.

tautologies; e.g. use Mount Tai instead of "Mount Taishan", and Xi River
instead of "Xijiang River".

This means that the guideline (and its community consensus) actually opposes this page move. "Lushan" itself is far too
ed. put'er there 12:41, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
I look at the oppose rationale above, but I can't find where is the proof that Mount Lu is used more than Lushan.
Also, quote from NCCHINA says, both Mount X and X Shan are acceptable, then how does the guideline oppose this page move?
NCCHINA permits to choose one of the forms from "X Mountain", "Mount X", "X Shan", so both Mount X and X Shan are ok, if we just look at this this rule.
But NCCHINA also says use authoritative preferred names, based on the second rule, then there is only Lushan can be used to name this mountain.
So NCCHINA actually oppose to use Mount Lu because it is not the preferred name used by authoritive organs.
If I am wrong, please point out, but please give specific answer for the concerns raised. Youtuber Serpentza (talk) 12:58, 18 March 2023 (UTC) sock strike – robertsky (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Trust me, editor YS, you are not completely wrong, because there is some truth in your point you make above. Because of that, we can take note that the Lushan title is a redirect that does not target the disambiguation page, no, instead the Lushan redirect targets this article. That means it is and should remain a
WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT
.
...I can't find where is the proof that Mount Lu is used more than Lushan.
The sources found in editor Scyrme's Oppose rationale above each favor "Mount Lu" over "Lushan".
NCCHINA
says, both Mount X and X Shan are acceptable, then how does the guideline oppose this page move?
"Naming 'X Mountain', 'Mount X', 'X Shan' depends on English usage" shows the guideline's opposition to this page move, because English usage, according to the English sources, prefers "Mount Lu".
ed. put'er there 13:20, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
I hope my understanding is normal, but please write a constructed answer.
My question is where is the evidence that Mount Lu is used more than lushan,
and your answer is: The editor's each rationale itself proved it? With what? The rationale is not evidence.
Also Lushan is widely used in English literature, then how does English sources, prefers Mount Lu?Even it might be hard to prove thatLushan is used more widely because there are other Lushans, it doesn't say that Mount Lu is more widely used.
Mount Lu does not meet Wikipedia rule per
WP:NCCHINA
as it says use authoritive preferred name, and Mount Lu is not that name.
I am very sorry, it might not be polite to say that, but I don't answer unconstructed rationale anymore here again. Thank you ) Youtuber Serpentza (talk) 13:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC) sock strike – robertsky (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we have just a small bit of a language barrier here? I don't know, but your questions have been answered repeatedly. Never said that the rationale itself was evidence. The evidence is in the sources that are given in the rationale. The sources favor "Mount Lu" over "Lu Mountain", which is the main subject of this move request. The sources also favor "Mount Lu" over the Romanized "Lushan", but not by a lot of favor. "Lushan" is still a bit liked by the sources, and that is why it redirects to this article instead of to the disambiguation page. "Lushan" is an ambiguous name, and yet it redirects to "Mount Lu". So when readers type "Lushan" in the search field, they will come directly to this page. They will not go to the disambiguation page and have to click twice to get to this article, they will come directly to this article. That will have to suffice. If not, then please forgive my inability to make myself understood.
ed. put'er there 14:12, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Wikipedia has very strict rules about this.
WP:NCCHINA says For places without a well-established English name and have competing names from transliterations of pinyin vs. ethnic minority languages, which is often the case in Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, and Tibet, use the name preferred by Xinhua
or similarly authoritative organs.
Government organs prefersLushan. www.lsbg.cn
Because Lushan is the name used by the Chinese government, Lushan is the only name that complies with Wikipedia. Youtuber Serpentza (talk) 07:22, 19 March 2023 (UTC) sock strike – robertsky (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The relevant part here is transliterations of pinyin "vs. ethnic minority languages". That's not the case here. We aren't dealing with minority languages, we're dealing with English usage. – Scyrme (talk) 14:03, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am just curious that what makes you think you have more authority to name a Chinese mountain than Chinese authorities?
Lushan is the official name used by Chinese government, whatelse do you want to say? Youtuber Serpentza (talk) 14:22, 19 March 2023 (UTC) sock strike – robertsky (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not naming the mountain, I'm following English-language sources. What I have said is consistent with
WP:NCCHINA which states: "Naming "X Mountain", "Mount X", "X Shan" depends on English usage." This has already been quoted to you several times. – Scyrme (talk) 14:28, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
What proof shows Mount Lu is more used in English usage than Lushan? Youtuber Serpentza (talk) 14:35, 19 March 2023 (UTC) sock strike – robertsky (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Who said Mount Lu is more used in English usage? Proof? Youtuber Serpentza (talk) 14:33, 19 March 2023 (UTC) sock strike – robertsky (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're the one who wants to move the article, it's up to you to prove that your preferred name is used more often. What I have argued is that there is no clear statistical case for moving because "Lushan" is ambiguous.
I don't know why you feel so strongly about this. Neither name is wrong and both will take the reader to this article if they search it. Why is that not good enough? – Scyrme (talk) 15:14, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have to show this evidence, because Lushan is Wikipedia's default name for the mountain.
WP:NCCHINA says: Use pinyin for place names in China unless another form is more well-established in current English usage. sock strike – robertsky (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
So if you dont have proof, the name needs to go back to Wikipedia's default name.
In this case, the pinyin for the mountain is Lushan. Youtuber Serpentza (talk) 08:35, 20 March 2023 (UTC) sock strike – robertsky (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Asserting something without evidence gets us nowhere. Building consensus on Wikipedia is far more than just assertion. All you've done is to continue, over and over, to assert that "Lushan" should be the title of this article. Your quote from the guideline (note that it's not a policy, which is a stronger community consensus than a guideline and harder to
ed. put'er there 10:54, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
  • CommentJust want to point out that Huangshan is a very similar situation, there is a Huangshan city, and there is a Huangshan mountain, and it seems all Lushan related Wikipedia pages use Lushan. For example, Lushan airport, Lushan conference, Lushan west sea, etc... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.201.87.62 (talk) 11:11, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I just wanted to note one thing: since Chinese has no grammatical plural, "shan" is ambiguous and can mean either "mountain" or "mountain range". -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:42, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose All signs point to the English name being Mount Lu. There is no compelling reason to change. TheSavageNorwegian 02:56, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Not all signs show that. Encyclopedia britannica use Lu Mountains, Google use Lushan Mountain and most of the papers used Lushan. It is worth considering changing the current name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.220.217.162 (talk) 03:40, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I don't support name Lu Mountain, I support to use name Lushan. Wikipedia has strict rule about how to name places in China.
    WP:NCCHINA
    says For places without a well-established English name and have competing names from transliterations of pinyin vs. ethnic minority languages, which is often the case in Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, and Tibet, use the name preferred by Xinhua or similarly authoritative organs.
Government organs prefersLushan. www.lsbg.cn
Because Lushan is the name used by the Chinese government, Lushan is the only name that complies with Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Youtuber Serpentza (talk • contribs) 07:28, 19 March 2023 (UTC) sock strike – robertsky (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It appears to be "and have competing names from transliterations of pinyin vs. ethnic minority languages", not "or". I don't believe it is the case that there is a clash between Mandarin and other ethnic minority languages, is there? Also found in
WP:NCCHINA: "Naming "X Mountain", "Mount X", "X Shan" depends on English usage", which brings us back to using the common English name, which, again, appears to be Mount Lu.TheSavageNorwegian 16:14, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The bit quoted also starts with "For places without a well-established English name" so even that guidance reinforces that the proper title "depends on English usage". – Scyrme (talk) 16:29, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
show proof mount Lu is well established. Proof? 120.18.102.16 (talk) 01:00, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is no proof mount Lu is common English usage. 120.18.102.16 (talk) 01:02, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The evidence or proof has been shown in the reliable sources given above in editor Scyrme's oppose argument. Read read read! Those sources point to the fact that "Mount Lu" is by far the
ed. put'er there 01:10, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Can you please copy the evidence and copy it out here? 120.18.102.16 (talk) 01:18, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A random editor's rationale is not evidence. So where is that evidence. Please point it out clearly. Thank you. ) 120.18.102.16 (talk) 01:20, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's my pleasure! The academic sources from a range of disciplines that show that "Mount Lu" is the most commonly used unambiguous name are as follows: [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15]. Hope this helps.
ed. put'er there 01:28, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Thanks for your reply. But this can't prove that mount Lu is more widely used than lushan in English usage. )Because I can give you more examples where lushan are used in papers.
Is there proof that can show mount Lu is definitely more used when compare with lushan.? 120.18.102.16 (talk) 01:36, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think "Lushan" is also a popular name for Lu. But "Lushan" can be applied to many things other than the mountain. So the only way "Lushan" would work as an article title is to disambiguate it, for example, "
ed. put'er there 01:45, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
It has been suggested that the pages of Huangshan and Lushan are very similar, there are Huangshan city and Huangshan mountain, but the name of the Wikipedia Huangshan mountain is Huangshan, Lushan can also the title of Lushan mountain. 120.18.102.16 (talk) 02:34, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, Wikipedia rule is clear,
WP:NCCHINA says: Use pinyin for place names in China
unless another form is more well-established in current English usage.
If the available data cannot determine which name is the most widely used, the name should revert to Pinyin, which is Lushan. 120.18.102.16 (talk) 02:39, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
[16]
[17]
[18]
[19]
[20]
[21]
Just name a few. Those are the examples that Lushan are used in academic papers. 120.18.102.16 (talk) 02:28, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That first article actually pertains to the massif, not the mountain, although the former is named after the latter (much like Lushan Botanical Garden). The rest of those use "Lushan Mountain", which is contrary to the guideline which states that tautologies are to be avoided. Even ignoring that, it has already been demonstrated by the Ngrams data that "Mount Lu" is evidently more prevalent than "Lu Mountain".
I do not understand why you feel so strongly about this that you would rather move to any name that isn't "Mount Lu". I could understand if "Mount Lu" were incorrect, if it were tautological, if it were made up by a random editor, or if the article had only recently been moved to this title, but none of these is the case. "Mount Lu" is a valid translation, it is not a tautology, it is used in English-language sources (and more often than "Lu Mountain", "Lushan Mountain", "Mount Lushan"), and it has been the stable title of the article for over a decade (since 2007, in-fact). – Scyrme (talk) 03:33, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi)
the proposed change was to change the name to Lushan, not Lushan mountain, so there is no duplication.
Since different names are used in the paper, it is not clear which one is the best. According to the rules of Wikipedia, pinyin should be used. And the government is using Lushan. 14.201.87.62 (talk) 03:46, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, Ngrams shows Lushan is more evidently used than Mount Lu. EveGoogle Ngrams. Mount Lu is not the most commonly used title, it is Lushan.
I don't support to use Lu mountain, but since mount lu cannot be proven to be used much more than lushan, I suppprt the return of the mountain name to pinyin's name, and it's Lushan. 14.201.87.62 (talk) 03:56, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ngrams are useless because they do not show whether the authors wrote about the mountain or Lushan City or Lushan County and so on, as shown at
ed. put'er there 04:01, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Since ngram does not show which is the widely used English name, and the names used in the papers are different, there is no universally referenced name, the mountain needs to be named in Pinyin according to the naming method in the wiki. 14.201.87.62 (talk) 09:41, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And wiki'rule has been long violated by the current title. 14.201.87.62 (talk) 09:43, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Scyrme and TheSavageNorwegian. Silikonz💬 20:33, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I don't see there is any proof show mount Lu is a well established English name? If not, shall use Pinyin to name this mountain because it's Wikipedia's requirement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lei's real talk (talk • contribs) 01:11, 22 March 2023 (UTC) sock strike – robertsky (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Per discussions above. The current title violates wiki rule. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.27.47.150 (talk) 10:45, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. WP:NCCHINA says: Use pinyin for place names in China unless another form is more well-established in current English usage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.27.47.150 (talk) 10:51, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
clearly, mount lu cannot be proven to be more widely used than lushan. 203.27.47.150 (talk) 10:58, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rfc on concerns raised on the current title of Mount Lu violates
WP:NCCHINA

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
I have terminated this. One, see section above. Two, see
WP:RFCNOT, last row. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:38, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

Since ngram does not show which is the widely used English name, and the names used in the papers are different, there is no universally referenced name, the mountain needs to be named in Pinyin according to the naming method in the wiki. In this case, Pinyin is Lushan. 203.17.215.26 (talk) 03:12, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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