Talk:Prince (Prince of Persia)/GA1

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Reviewer: Shooterwalker (talk · contribs) 16:43, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I will try to get to this one in the next week. If it slips my mind, you have permission to give me a ping. Shooterwalker (talk) 16:43, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Shooterwalker: this is your requested ping. A little late. --ProtoDrake (talk) 13:49, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And here's my even more late reply. Finally have time to jump back in, and will have some comments for you within the day. Shooterwalker (talk) 13:47, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Appearances

• I find it's good to state the
  WP:OBVIOUS
  . "The Prince is the main protagonist from the Prince of Persia series of games."
• "In Prince of Persia 3D (1999), the Prince must again rescue the Princess this time from Rugnor, son of the Sultan's brother and the Princess's former betrothed." -> "In Prince of Persia 3D (1999), the Prince once again rescues the Princess, this time from Rugnor, son of the Sultan's brother and the Princess's former betrothed." or even "In Prince of Persia 3D (1999), the Prince once again rescues the Princess, this time from her former betrothed."
• "The Sands of Time sequence covers the Prince, as the son of Persian king Sharaman, from his early years through events which shape him into a leader" -> "The Sands of Time sequence covers the Prince's transformation into a leader, as the heir to Persian king Sharaman."
• "artefact" -> "artifact"
• "In Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time (2003), he accidentally releases the Sands of Time after they are looted from an Indian city with an artefact called the Dagger of Time, and must work with the city's princess Farah to contain the Sands before they spread through the world, while the treacherous Vizier seeks to use them to achieve immortality." -> this will probably read better as two sentences, instead of several phrases joined by and/while/punctuation.
• "warn Farah, killing the Vizier and returning the Dagger to Farah" -> "warn Farah, before killing the Vizier and returning the Dagger to Farah"
• "... the Prince has become determined to undo the making of the Sands by confronting their creator the Empress of Time. He ends up meeting the Empress, Kaileena, and bonding with her before he knows her identity." -> "... the Prince has become determined to undo the making of the Sands. He confronts the creator of the Sands, Kaileena the Empress of Time, and bonds with her as he learns her identity."
• "The Prince is also infected, manifesting an alternate personality dubbed the Dark Prince. The Prince is also infected by the Sands, which turns him into a Sand Monster hybrid and helps manifests an alternate Dark Prince personality." -> these two sentences seem to cover the same ground. You could probably cut one. (Though two can be good for organization.)
• "During his adventure, he reunites with Farah, accepts responsibility for his people after finding Sharaman's body, and eventually kills the Vizier and defeats the Dark Prince, with Kaileena's spirit taking the Sands and Dagger from the world." -> This one starts to run on a bit, and might also be good as two separate sentences.
• "The Prince becomes embroiled in a quest by the priestess Elika to reseal the dark god Ahriman. They ultimately fail, but make every effort to lock Ahriman back into the tree. They succeed at this, but Elika dies as the price of the ritual. " -> This is confusing -- they ultimately fail, but they also succeed.
• "the Prince travels to in search of a means of containing Ahriman's influence, fighting against a powerful corrupted king with help from the king's disembodied light side and a spirit dubbed the Ancestor." -> "the Prince searches for a way to contain Ahriman's influence, fighting a corrupted king with help from the king's disembodied light side and a spirit dubbed the Ancestor."
• "A street urchin adopted by the Persian king Sharaman, when an adult Dastan is sent with his brothers to attack the city of Alamut on the word of Sharaman's brother Nizam, claiming the Dagger of Time which Alamut's princess Tamina keeps safe." -> this is another sentence that would probably read better as two separate sentences
• "Nizam then kills Sharaman while framing Dastan for the crime, having sought the Dagger of Time to unlock the Sands and use their power to alter history and make himself king." -> this might work by inverting the phrases -- explain their goal first, and what that leads them to do. This will probably flow into the next sentence too.

• Recurring characteristics

• I think you can improve the first sentence to frame this section, and with a better source too. The Ben Mattes quote (and the wider article) covers some of this. "There are many versions of the Prince with several commonalities, usually their acrobatic movement and a desire for adventure."
• I'm not sure that portrayal fits under the heading of recurring characteristics? I might encourage renaming the section or subsection, but not sure what's best.
• I know the 2D Prince doesn't have a voice actor, but wasn't this a rotoscoped character based on a physical actor?
• "as he needed to remain true to and improve on his original portrayal." -> "as he needed to improve his performance while staying true to his original portrayal."
• This section is really clearly written. Great job!

• Concept and Design

• "referencing main character Indiana Jones' approach to situations encountered" -> "referencing the approach of the main character, Indiana Jones."
• "Indiana Jones' less impervious portrayal compared to other action heroes also influenced Mechner's portrayal of the Prince" -> "Mechner's prince also borrowed from Indiana Jones as a less impervious portrayal of an action hero." (Phrased better -- might even come up with somethign better than "less impervious".)
• As an outsider, it's easy to lose track of the timeline and history. So maybe slip it in there that Prince of Persia 3D came out in 1999. Maybe even underscore that Sands of Time was something of a reboot.
• "This conversely led to difficulties with other enemy movements." -> this might need elaboration, as it isn't clear how this led to difficulties.
• "a decision was taken by the development team from the outset to make the game's atmosphere darker" -> "the development team decided to make the game's atmosphere darker".
• "The two people most involved with the Prince's redesigned" -> "redesign"
• "During the early stages" -> "Early in development"
• "it was soon decided" -> try to avoid passive voice. It's more wordy and less clear. Who decided?
• "In The Two Thrones, the Prince was portrayed as a mature warrior able to hold his own, with his appearance roughened using scars and his Sands infection being designed to appear like a "living wound" more than a tattoo" -> maybe break this into two sentences. As phrased, it is a little confusing and hard to read.
• "described as the more visually appealing version" -> another passive voice problem. Who described them as more visually appealing?
• "Mattes explained that the inspiration for the character design was to express how he would eventually become a prince through an epic journey." -> "Mattes explained that the goal for the character design was to show his transformation into a prince through his epic journey."
• "The prince wears red and blue cloth as a turban and scarves, a sign of wealth." -> "As a sign of wealth, the prince wears red and blue cloth as a turban and scarves."
• "Mechner he chose" -> "Mechner chose"
• "Despite Mechner's film script being written prior to the making of later games in the Sands of Time continuity, Mechner said that the production team for the film incorporated design elements from later games into the Prince's appearance." -> "Although Mechner's film script was written prior to finishing later games in the Sands of Time continuity, the film incorporated design elements from those games into the Prince's appearance."
• "The Prince's most worn outfit, a loose-fitting spiral coat, was designed by her based on a picture from a piece of ancient Persian embroidery." -> "For the Prince's most worn outfit, she designed a loose-fitting spiral coat based on a picture of ancient Persian embroidery."
• "made nods" -> "paid homage"
• "Mechner was approached about adapting his character First Second Books' editorial director Mark Siegel," -> not sure what you're trying to say here
• "But after meeting Mechner and the editor for the book's publisher First Second Books, he was won over" -> "But Sina agreed to join the project after meeting Mechner and the editor for the book's publisher, First Second Books."
• "He also co-wrote Before the Sandstorm" -> Mechner, or Sina?

• Reception

• "in his various incarnations" -> you can cut this
• The first sentence might read better without the quote. It's wordy and hard to read as is. This is even more true for the second sentence.
• The Guinness Book of Records sentence needs a period.
• "In an article for Retro Gamer concerning the creation of the series, David Crookes noted the Prince's importance as an early example of the acrobatic lead character, comparing him to similar later game leads including Lara Croft." -> In a Retro Gamer article about the game series, David Crookes noted the Prince as an early example of the acrobatic lead character, influencing similar later game leads including Lara Croft.
• "The Prince as he appears in The Sands of Time is generally seen as the most likeable version of the character, with critics and fans praising his portrayal and development" -> "Critics and fans praise the Prince's portrayal in the Sands of Time, and this is generally seen as the most popular version of the character."
• "notoriously" -> this feels like it might be too much editorializing. Dropping it doesn't remove anything factual from the article, and reads as more neutral.
• "who enjoyed the character's portrayal and design" -> this is redundant with the rest of the sentence, which already establishes praise.
• I am not sure Mechner's quote adds anything to his criticism of the character, and you could easily summarize it for more clarity and simplicity.
• You lose the timeline a bit -- when and how did the Prince return to the Sands of Time portrayal?
• "GameSpot's Bob Colayco enjoyed how the game seemed to self-reference the criticism in its portrayal of the character and his struggle with his Dark Prince persona, saying "the internal strife in the schizophrenic prince's mind forms a compelling part of the storyline"" -> GameSpot's Bob Colayco saw the latest portrayal as an interesting self-reference to the criticism, suggesting that "the internal strife in the schizophrenic prince's mind forms a compelling part of the storyline""
• There's a lot of weight on the Gamasutra article about the sexuality of the Prince of Persia, and I might try to focus on the main point. The several points get kind of clouded.
• "as part of general criticism on the leads" -> you can probably drop this without losing anything
• The sentence about Gyllenhall's hair could probably be split in two, as it runs long and becomes difficult to read.
• I'm also not sure the quote from Ghazzal Dabiri really adds much as it is more providing historical context, rather than focused on the reception of the character.
• "The film was similarly accused by several critics of whitewashing the cast" -> "The film was also criticized for whitewashing the cast" this seems like a new criticism, and not at all similar.
• "Brian Ashcraft of Kotaku admitted the criticism, but felt it failed to take into account complexities surrounding the perception of ethnicity in both the film industry and real-life over time, also noting some of the leads having varied ethnic backgrounds while wishing the film's makers had made the effort to cast Iranian actors in the lead roles" -> "Brian Ashcraft of Kotaku felt this criticism didn't account for the complexities surrounding the perception of ethnicity of film characters, noting the varied ethnic backgrounds of the actors while still wishing that Iranian actors were cast in leading roles." (Just long and needs to be tighter and more readable.)

• Overall

• This is on track to become a GA. It looks well researched and generally well written. There are a bunch of long and difficult-to-read sentences that can be simplified or split, for flow. I'd also encourage you to look out for passive voice (it was decided by the team VS. the team decided), as fixing that will often make the story clearer and in fewer words. We can circle back once you've tried some of these recommendations. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:03, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Shooterwalker: Done my best to address the issues you've raised, and found some other ways to tighten things up and make the whole thing flow more. Some of the things you picked up were stuff left over from this version, which had a lot of influence from SNAAAKE!. Yes, that's the real user name. I also added some extra specific commentary about the 2008 incarnation of the character. --ProtoDrake (talk) 20:10, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is excellent work. There are a few things we missed on the first pass (that's on me too), and I'm confident we can get all the way there with one more set of revisions.
    • Lead
      • "with his athleticism taking inspiration from the opening of Raiders of the Lost Ark. " -> "with his athleticism inspired by the opening of Raiders of the Lost Ark."
      • ""For The Sands of Time, the Prince was redesigned and rewritten, and over the course of its sequels, was developed in various ways to show his growing maturity" -> "The Prince was redesigned and rewritten for The Sands of Time in 2003, with his design maturing with each sequel."
    • Additional Grammar
      • "Kaileena's spirit taking the Sands and Dagger from the world, and in a final mental confrontation the Prince overcomes the Dark Prince's influence." -> something is off here
      • "An element which appeared in both The Shadow and the Flame and The Two Thrones was a being dubbed either Shadowman or the Dark Prince" -> "A doppleganger appeared in both The Shadow and the Flame and The Two Thrones, commonly described as the Dark Prince or Shadowman."
      • "skirting round" -> "skirting around" (or maybe something less colloquial)
      • "According to Lowenthal, his well-received performance put pressure on him in future Prince of Persia games from both fans and staff," -> "According to Lowenthal, his well-received performance put pressure on him in future Prince of Persia games," (shorter and still clear)
      • "This ultimately gave him little creative freedom with the character after The Sands of Time" -> "He felt that this limited his creative freedom with the character after The Sands of Time" (more accurate that this was his interpretation)
      • "that due to development pressures he was growing tired of the character" -> "that he was growing tired of the character due to development pressures."
      • "The two people most involved with the Prince's designed" -> last word needs quick fix
      • "comparing him to similar later game leads including Lara Croft." -> "comparing him to later game leads including Lara Croft." (cut redundant word)
    • Reception
      • There's a few parts here that are lengthy and need work.
      • Empire also included Prince on their list of the 50 greatest video game characters, ranking him as 35th and giving particular reference to his portrayal in The Sands of Time and its sequels, saying that despite his banter being weaker in The Two Thrones, he was "a genuinely likeable guy in baggy trousers wielding a large cutlass and sporting a natty beardlet" -> this one can also be shorter and clearer, without losing too much information. Try "Empire also ranked the Prince as their 35th greatest video game character, particularly praising his portrayal in The Sands of Time."
      • Commenting on Gyllenhaal's performance as the Prince as part of general criticism on the leads, Chicago Sun-Times film critic Roger Ebert felt Gyllenhall "plays Dastan as if harboring Spider-Man's doubts and insecurities", clashing with his physical appearance." -> "Commenting on the Prince's portrayal in the film, Chicago Sun-Times film critic Roger Ebert felt Gyllenhall "plays Dastan as if harboring Spider-Man's doubts and insecurities", clashing with his physical appearance.""
      • The whole quote and reaction of Ghazzal Dabiri doesn't seem to connect to what came before it, and is excessively long. Is the point maybe -- "but this was defended as historically accurate by Ghazzal Dabiri, a lecturer and coordinator of Iranian studies at Columbia University."
      • Something occurred to me. Isn't it true that Prince of Persia effectively evolved into Assassin's Creed? If that's the case, are there sources that say the Prince had an influence on the character design in that game? (You already mention the influence on Lara Croft.)
    • That should get us all the way there, if not very close. Shooterwalker (talk) 04:39, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Shooterwalker: Did my best to address everything mentioned above. As to Assassin's Creed, it's more like "they started with a PoP spin-off, then turned it into its own thing". I've mentioned that a version of the prince was planned then dropped when it became its own thing, but that's more dev info than legacy. As far as I know, there are no connections between the Prince and Altair. --ProtoDrake (talk) 11:02, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for looking into that connection. This is definitely GA quality and I'm happy to give this a pass. I went ahead and tweaked the lead, and the article is a pass with or without these additional changes. Great job overall and thanks for your efforts. Shooterwalker (talk) 14:07, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]