Talk:Raye

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus – While supporters claim the singer is a clear PT, they fail to provide compelling supporting evidence. Opponents argue that the singer is not so well-known compared to other meanings, and in particular to the existing redirect to an anime character, but that's also a judgment call with little evidence. Hence no consensus can be found either for or against the move. Status quo prevails; no prejudice against a renewed RM to place the newly-created dab page at this title. — JFG ^talk 05:22, 24 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Raye (singer) → Raye

• Oppose this is not a well known singer. This is a featured/back up singer who appears to have never charted. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:37, 8 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Would be better to move Raye (disambiguation) over the redirect to Sailor Mars. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:58, 8 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Would be even better to present an argument based in policy, guidelines or even undocumented conventions. I, for one, fail to see how these remarks, "not a well known singer" and "featured/backup singer who appears to have never charted" are even relevant to this proposal. --В²C ☎ 00:58, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well they are relevant because this Raye is not a well known singer but a featured/backup singer who appears to have never charted solo. And because we're supposed to be building an encyclopedia here. "Raye is" and "Raye was" tests don't suggest that this person is the more notable than all other uses of "Raye" in mankind's history combined - if anything it is "Raye" meaning Martha Raye which comes up most. Which means that the backing singer is yet not a natural long term encyclopedic absolute topic, like Ella Fitzgerald or Julius Caesar, but just another Raye, with less print than the young lawyer Raye in one of Thomas Hardy's stories. Give the girl a chance to get in the charts. We can always remove (singer) later if she becomes the universal meaning of Raye. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:17, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

But we're not disambiguating the universe. We're only disambiguating article titles on WP. No one is typing "Raye" in the search box expecting an article about Martha Raye, and almost no one is expecting Sailor Mars. When the universe puts forward another Raye who readers are looking for, we can easily move this article back. Station1 (talk) 19:08, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Some of Wikipedia's readers actually live in the universe. When they enter the alternative reality of en.wp they may not be aware that they have to leave the real world behind. The universe, real books, have already provided multiple meanings of Raye, of which none stands out. But then the backing singer stands out even less. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:40, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What you don't seem to recognize or respect,

WP:NOTABLE topics - those with articles on WP. --В²C ☎ 00:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

• Support per nom. There is no other article on WP using this title. Station1 (talk) 04:06, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We do have a substantial article on

Raye (character) from Sailor Moon. It's just titled by her other name. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:48, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

As I said, there is no other article using this title. The other article (which get fewer than half the views of this one anyway) is at Sailor Mars (its best title), so there is no conflict whatsoever between titles. Incidentally, less than 2% of Sailor Mars's views last year came through the Raye redirect, so it's not needed for that purpose. Station1 (talk) 03:31, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Difficult to see from

Hurricane. What we need is an argument from WP:RS that in all of mankind's history the overwhelming use of "Raye" is for a 19 year old singer who hasn't charted. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:52, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

It's relevant because our

article titling policy says article titles should be concise, natural and no more precise than necessary. Disambiguation, when it's necessary, can be done in several ways, the most extreme of which is creating an artificial article title. Sometimes that is necessary, but when two article titles are not in direct conflict, a less intrusive way of getting readers to the right place is a hatnote. Station1 (talk) 08:12, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

Don't

cherrypick information, the singer has two extremely successful singles, both alongside notable artists. The singles have charted very well internationally. As well as this, there are also notable songwriting contributions. TheKaphox T 23:55, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

For the record, IIO just created the Raye (character) redirect. --В²C ☎ 00:58, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom as clear
  WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. --В²C ☎ 00:58, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Oppose per In ictu oculi. This is a common surname and given name and the singer should not have primacy over the newly created dab page that's actually a name list article with some partial title matches, but that can be sorted out afterwards. —Xezbeth (talk) 06:06, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• You do know that her name is spelt entirely in capitals as it's shown the video names. It's like this, RAYE. So really the page should just be called that. 7:42, 12 March 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajitunes14 (talk • contribs)

  We don't normally use all caps for article titles, except for acronyms, even if that's how the subject chooses to style themselves. It's just a matter of house style. But a redirect from

  RAYE can be created if you like. Station1 (talk) 19:08, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Support per
  WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Of the two existing uses, the singer is the clear primary topic over one of the dubbed spellings of one of the names of one of the friends of Sailor Moon. As stated above, Sailor Mars barely mentions the name "Raye"; the character appears to be better known as Rei (or, you know, "Sailor Mars").--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:51, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Support. Per nom. Unreal7 (talk) 14:45, 18 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. The most common search term is presently as Raye (disambiguation). That is the page that should be moved to Raye. --Richhoncho (talk) 13:53, 23 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move. The proposer presented clear evidence for primary topic here, and opposers presented mostly only JDLI arguments in response. Arguments based on declarations of "Of course not" without any basis whatsoever were dismissed. Also, noting the proposed title is a name isn't an argument opposing a move to that title (names can be primary topics). So that was also dismissed. That left one arguably reasonable opposition implying a mitigating RECENTISM issue here, but there's no support for that, and in the super-unlikely event that the other uses become relatively more significant, sufficient to topple this primary topic, that can be rectified then. But odds are this article will be stable at this title for the foreseeable future, at least. --В²C ☎ 04:31, 25 March 2023 (UTC) В²C ☎ 04:31, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Raye (singer) → Raye
• Raye → Raye (disambiguation)

– Clear case of

• Support, this probably should have been revisited a long time ago as the views started shooting up very shortly after the previous RM concluded. Certainly not in doubt any more. —Xezbeth (talk) 19:57, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Please don't read only one part of WikiNav near the end that seems the most bombastic. The same page at the top says that there were 1.2k incoming views of Raye, and 1.03k went to the singer, so a relevant ratio to discuss is about 86%. This means there were still about 14% of viewers of Raye who did not go to the singer, which could still be considered moot. Does the long-term significance of the 25yo singer likewise overwhelm that of all the other Raye entries on the list? --Joy (talk) 18:03, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The question is not if the long-term significance of the 25-year-old singer overwhelms all the other other Raye entries but if it overwhelms all the mononymous usages for that term. The only other mononymous usage for Raye on Wikiepdia is as an uncommon nickname for Sailor Mars. If someone looked for let's say Raye Birk, they would not simply search "Raye" and expect to find Raye Birk, they would search for "Raye Birk", the same way that someone wouldn't expect to find Adele Astaire by using the term "Adele". Célestin Denis (talk) 21:00, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I take issue with the claim that people don't look up topics in name lists - both given names and surnames are used to search for people and surnames in particular are often used mononymously in practice. --Joy (talk) 19:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The objective data shows that's rarely the case. Almost no one is clicking on anything on the dab page other than the singer. Station1 (talk) 19:54, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  14% already isn't almost no one, and these percentages may well change over time. I'm not convinced it's wise for the encyclopedia to treat a current trend as gospel. (

  WP:RECENT) --Joy (talk) 10:05, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  It isn't 14%, it's about 1-2%, but even it was 20% (as claimed below), the singer would still be clearly what the very large majority of readers want and expect to find at the title Raye. - Station1 (talk) 18:16, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  It will be 1-2% only if you allow yourself to be misled by the nice graph. It only shows the outgoing traffic ratio with respect to those destinations that have made it into the dataset. Destinations with fewer than 10 hits for the month are omitted. And so are views of the dab page that don't result in a reader clicking on any link. – Uanfala (talk) 19:11, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I estimated only 1-2% "clicking on anything on the dab page other than the singer", so views that don't result in a click are irrelevant to that estimate.

  Raye (singer) itself, so anyone clicking on that hatnote and heading back to the singer's article would not be double counted. Station1 (talk) 04:24, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  To estimate the number of readers clicking on anything on the dab page other than the singer, you need to take into account that links with fewer than 10 monthly clicks don't make it into the dataset, so they could have been clicked between 0 and 9 times. There are 28 such links, so the clicks they received is within the range 1.3%–20%. – Uanfala (talk) 11:17, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree that is the theoretical range, but to get anywhere near the top end of that range we would have to assume that: a) people clicking on the hatlink on

  WP:PRIMARYTOPIC criterion. Station1 (talk) 19:14, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  The ratio is more like 82%, if you take account of the total views of the dab [2]. – Uanfala (talk) 13:35, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom, clear PRIMARY. DankJae 00:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Per
  WP:PTM. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 04:49, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Support. There is no other article on WP titled "Raye". - Station1 (talk) 18:26, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. The singer released her debut studio album on 3 Feb, of course she'll be what most readers are looking for at the moment. But before promoting a primary topic, we'd need some long-term indicators too. And (that should hardly need pointing out), there are other topics with the name (if not necessarily articles whose title is "Raye (foobar)"): the dab page lists two dozen people with the name and a bunch of communes or other places in France. – Uanfala (talk) 20:31, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  But almost no one is clicking on any of those 2 dozen people or communes, because almost no one would expect to find them under the title "Raye". Station1 (talk) 21:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I wouldn't say it's almost no-one. Even now, at a massive spike in the singer's popularity, almost one out of five readers searching for "Raye" are looking for something other than the singer. – Uanfala (talk) 21:13, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  That 1 in 5 is assuming that everyone who clicked on the disambiguation page did so while actively looking for a specific topic and didn't just click the hat-note on the singer's article and left. The 98.66% outgoing page views is staggering and absolutely shows that Raye is the primary topic by usage. Célestin Denis (talk) 00:00, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Raye is a name. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:53, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  So are Selena and Nelly, both of which are common names, yet these don't have any disambiguation. Itsquietuptown ✉️📜 10:16, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Your vote is not based on any policy and is not constructive at all. If you're going to oppose, please find a valid argument next time, I expected better from a veteran editor. Célestin Denis (talk) 23:56, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom. Itsquietuptown ✉️📜 10:08, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Is she more likely to be looked for than everyone else on the list put together? Of course not. Does she have more long-term significance than anyone else on the list? Of course not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:40, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  And you're basing this on what? The statistics I linked are showing that yes, she is more likely to be looked for than everyone else on the list when Raye is searched. The only other mononymous usage of Raye is as an uncommon nickname for an anime character named Sailor Mars which absolutely will not hold as much long-term significance as the singer. Célestin Denis (talk) 23:54, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]