Talk:Revolution of Dignity

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In the newsNews items involving this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on February 19, 2014, and February 23, 2014.
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Should the united states be included in the foreign involvement section?

Politicians voicing support for protests is incredibly weak compared to Russia sending saboteurs and using economic pressure on Ukraine, The United States even urged Ukrainian protesters to negotiate with Viktor Yanukovych. https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/01/23/readout-vice-president-bidens-call-ukrainian-president-viktor-yanukovych https://www.refworld.org/docid/55c0b14c4.html https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/mar/19/facebook-posts/united-states-spent-5-billion-ukraine-anti-governm/ Monochromemelo1 (talk) 22:03, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

yeah equating teh us and russia's involvement is
wp:undue, taht said a 'foreign reactions section' would be worth while—blindlynx 22:48, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/cia-ukraine-intelligence-russia-war.html?smid=url-share
Doesn’t this change things? 2601:648:8300:9A60:D95D:2B05:B141:B2E0 (talk) 01:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, the source is about the current war, i.e. 10 years after the Revolution of Dignity. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Le Revolution of Dignity"

Editors have been told how to initiate a new move request if there are compelling reasons to move the article that were not addressed in the many prior requests, or if the situation has changed since those discussions. Please do not start new move requests just to challenge old ones, and mind that you are not starting a request just to
settle political scores. Any such requests should be speedy closed or removed from the page. This thread has devolved into political mudslinging and personal attacks, so I am closing it. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:29, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

When did this fake name get invented for the Maidan Revolution? I've been following the news on this for coming up on 10 years now and I've never heard this term before. It seems like some insane level of spin. Is there any real justification for this article title? 100.37.244.118 (talk) 16:12, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion which led to the selection of the current title is
disruptive. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:33, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
It looks like the move to "Revolution of Dignity" was initiated and pushed through by a sockpuppet account called "Somerby" who was a sock of "Dolyn" and was locked and permanently banned by the Wiki community. That seems to me to count as "new" information that would not have been brought up when "Somerby" was active in making the change. What do you think? 100.37.244.118 (talk) 16:47, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't have anything to do with the title of this page—blindlynx 19:21, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This so called "Revolution of Dignity" name was coined by the Ukrainian regime that removed Yanukovich and the name has been subsequently adopted by the Western media as well as Wikipedia. But a revolution by definition must have wide popular support and involve the removal of a monarch or dictator. The fact Yanukovich was legally elected and removed without due process does not support this. Neither does the fact that eastern and southeastern Ukraine, who mainly voted for Yanukovich, were not politically involved in his removal. 2604:3D08:8E80:580:C437:9632:90E1:844B (talk) 03:21, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
there wasn't a 'rebellion' in 2014 it was an armed invasion of Ukraine's Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts by Russian soldiers and their proxy forces which Russia openly admits to arming. In Ukraine the ousting started as protests movement to his withdrawal from negotiations with the EU which was widely popular in Ukraine.Yaunkovich then started killing protesters and banned protesting. The ousting in Yaunonkovich is called the Revolution of dignity in Ukraine. Monochromemelo1 (talk) 13:54, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I came to the talk page to say the same thing, I have never once heard it freferred to as the Revolution of Dignity, which sounds like an A-Team episode. It's always referred to as Euromaidan or the Maidan revolution in British media. Using this name doesn't seem like it fits the Neutral Point of View — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:B414:2401:4C17:513F:1B80:DDBD (talk) 23:45, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Euromaidan is a separate article and as of the RM last march 'Revolution of Dignity' is the term most used in scholarship—blindlynx 15:13, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but in everyday usage it is overwhelmingly known as Maidan or Euromaidan. 124.149.240.157 (talk) 10:57, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Take a look at the old request moves---especially the nov 2021 one---those discussions will explain what's going on—blindlynx 16:06, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure it's the most used term in scholarship. I can replicate the results from the previous discussion:
but this excluded the most common term, "Euromaidan".
With several results on that page using "Euromaidan" as shorthand for the entire protest movement and change in government, saying "before and after Euromaidan"[1][2], or just "Euromaidan revolution"[3][4]. The most cited paper on the first page of results (245 citations) makes no distinction.[5]
It's really not clear that the most common term for the protest movement is different from the most common term for the armed conflict, or even the second or third-most common terms. Searching for "Revolution of Dignity" on Google Scholar, the most cited work on the first page (63 citations) says the "Revolution of Dignity" took place between 2013-2014,[6] presumably including the protests.
So this confusion about what to call this article is tightly linked to how to structure all these events in article space. The Orange Revolution article covers both the protests and the upheaval, so I'm not sure why there's a split in this case. Wizmut (talk) 11:39, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about a specific set of notable events that happened during the wider Maidan protests. It's not really comparable to the orange revolution because there was just a lot more of note going on during Maidan.
What do you suggest we name these if not the current titles? —blindlynx 15:31, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If article size wasn't an issue then I'd say put it all in one article. But that's not workable, so I don't think there's an easy answer. "Euromaidan protests" and "Euromaidan revolution" seem to cover the chosen split, somewhat imperfectly.
Would be weird to have no article called "Euromaidan", but this term seems to cover a slightly different set of events for each author. Maybe the long term solution in 10 years will be to have a super-article briefly covering everything and then two more specific articles, one more towards 2013 and one more towards 2014. Will have to wait and see what scholars settle on. Wizmut (talk) 15:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
wont that just muddy things? ....'Revolution of dignity' is more common and clearer that 'Euromaidan revolution'
idk i don't really see a compelling reason to move anything—blindlynx 22:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We should compare "revolution of dignity" (7500 hits in Scholar) with Euromaidan (twice as much) ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:55, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For which? the whole thing or the clashes to ousting bit? —blindlynx 16:09, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"This article is about a specific set of notable events that happened during the wider Maidan protests" - sources call those protests Euromaidan, or the Revolution of dignity. I don't see sources giving any specific name for "a specific set of notable events that happened during" what period? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 18:55, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right sorry, i guess the problem is that both the specific set of events and the whole set of protest are called both Euromaidan or the Revolution of dignity...hence the two articles. I guess we could point Revolution of dignity to
WP:NDESC like End of the Revolution of Dignity/Evromaidan'—blindlynx 22:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Yes. I checked the sources and they say Euromaidan and the Revolution of dignity are synonyms, literally "Euromaidan, or the Revolution of dignity" - Why Women Protest: Insights from Ukraine's EuroMaidan | Slavic Review | Cambridge Core , Ukraine and Russian Neo-Imperialism - Google Books .
After that we need to note that events of Feb 18 - Feb 22 (dates are not precise) are given much attention in sources, and so a separated article could be made off Euromaidan dedicated to these, for the reasons of article length, and named appropriately.
And this is what we have here, we just need to decide on article name. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:42, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the current situation is a natural dab but it's also a weird wiki specific distinction. I feel like it's hard to make up my mind every time this comes up.
Do you have any ideas for the title of this article? —blindlynx 15:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A wider discussion should be opened so more editors would engage and find the correct title. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:46, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
agreed —blindlynx 17:01, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Several overtly political comments removed Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:29, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The major labour unions should be included in pro-Maidan, anti-Yanukovych section

"Federation of Trade Unions of Ukraine" & "Confederation of Free Trade Unions of Ukraine" actively participate in anti-Yanukovych protests and deserve a mention. Russian Wikipedia mentions them already. Jūnenas0 (talk) 12:24, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Russian propaganda

I just restored the use of the term "Russian propaganda" instead of Putin as the proponent of the theory that the revolution was a coup. The coup-narrative is one of the key elements of the Russian justification of anti-Ukrainian aggression and therefore should be explicitly named as an element of Russian propaganda. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:30, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. This article is not a place for broadcasting Putin's words. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:17, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you use a
WP:Synth, depending on how you justify it. SamuelRiv (talk) 17:29, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Greetings! You are edit warring. You are supposed to reach consensus before re-adding your changes first. Please undo your changes and seek consensus. Thanks!
Sources say just what you require. Wilson p. VI : Except that the coup was not in Kiev, as Russian propaganda claimed, but in Crimea a week later. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 18:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added a few citation, the fact russian propaganda calls it a coup is obvious and there a tonnes of sources for it—blindlynx 22:34, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then you should have no trouble rewriting the section with an indirect quotation and a supporting source. (See e.g.
WP:INTEXT
for examples relevant to this.) What we have now is a direct quotation of Putin himself at a specific press conference, which requires specific in-line attribution.
Regarding Wilson and Crimea, that's great, and it's cited. As you will note in my comments here and my thorough edit summaries, I did not delete this, but I instead moved it to the section on Crimea. If you want to say what you want to say, you have to write it in proper encyclopedic prose, and not in this point-counterpoint format (that is inherently argumentative). SamuelRiv (talk) 23:55, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added three sources and there isn't a direct citation anyways.
Regarding the crimea bit it's relevant given according to sources is an actual coup and so we should provide that context right after talking about russian claims of a coup. Either way there isn't consensus for your changes, please self revert—blindlynx 00:16, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please try to understand that a
direct quotation has to be to be found explicitly in the cited reference, otherwise it fails WP:Verifiability. Attributing a public quotation from Putin -- which one source quotes -- to something else -- which a source does not quote -- also fails verification. Verifiability is the minimum standard of inclusion for content on Wikipedia. SamuelRiv (talk) 00:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
I've reworded it slightly to avoid the misapprehension that the coup part is a direct quote—blindlynx 00:58, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We don't need Putin. I provided direct quote above, thanks! You moved it to Crimea section. It can be in that section, but it should also remain in a section where it was before. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks fine to me now. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:04, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Level of support for Yanukovych

The page currently states:

"Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had some support in the east and south, where his native Russian is much more widely spoken". Emphasis mine.

However, the referenced article that was apparently sourced from actually says:

"Yanukovych is widely despised in Ukraine's west, but has strong support in his native Russia-speaking east, as well as south."

Again emphasis mine. The editor changing "strong" to "some" is clearly biased. Article appears locked so I can't correct. 31.52.143.133 (talk) 13:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The source is from 20.2.2014 and is outdated. I replaced the sentence with another from better, actual academic source. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 14:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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