Talk:Russo-Georgian War/Archive 9

Best regards, --CopperKettle (talk) 20:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I thought there used to be something in the article about Georgia's military budget and... as I think about it... I might have been the one who deleted it. Heh! (It was in a very strange place in the article and didn't seem relevant at the time.) Where do you think information about the budget would fit within an article about the war? I'm guessing you're inviting the reader to draw an inference that Georgia was planning this for some time? (That might open up a can of worms about

speculation and POV.) croll (talk

) 21:40, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

If this material is going to be included, equivalent material about the budgets of Russia and the "non-recognized republics" should be included as well. Would antiwar.com have those numbers like it does for Georgia?Bdell555 (talk) 23:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Why? Russia's military budget hasn't increased prior to the war, because it's not the aggressor. On the other hand, numbers from the unrecognized republics would be beneficial. --Mrcatzilla (talk) 23:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no consensus that Russia is "not the aggressor." Since you are using that very contentious premise as a starting point ("because") for your argument as to what is relevant and should thus be included, this conclusion of yours is necessarily very contentious as well. We can't put it in any more than we can say "Russia is not the aggressor", in other words.Bdell555 (talk) 00:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

All right then, I guess we can look at the numbers and from those safely conclude that Russia is not the aggressor, publish this information elsewhere and use it here as a resource due to "no original research" policy. --Mrcatzilla (talk) 01:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

These are just the facts, why not post them in the article. As to whether Georgia is agressor, everybody is entitled hto his own view. The facts might help balancing that view. --CopperKettle (talk) 01:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Some time has passed, and there are no substantial counteragruments; will look for the place to add the statistics. --CopperKettle (talk) 03:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Added here. --CopperKettle (talk) 03:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I went and checked the CIA reference cited for the GDP %, and it says 0.59%! You evidently don't have a cite for either 4.5% or 9%, and calculated it yourself. Please see

Please don't make personal attacks. The CIA WB figure is of 2005 and then it was indeed just 0.59%. Alæxis_¿question? 05:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's the source according to which Georgia's proposed military spending in 2008 account for 5.6 of GDP. Alæxis_¿question? 05:47, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's another article published a yyear ago:

Alæxis_¿question? 05:52, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, that solves the problem in that I have no objections at all to that material being added to the

Military of Georgia article and I would encourage you to add it. But that still doesn't solve the problem of relevance. It is not neutral to not have a description of the growth of Russian and South Ossetian military spending as well, assuming that any of that stuff is relevant.Bdell555 (talk

) 06:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

See the extraordinary sessions of Georgian parliament: 1 2 --CopperKettle (talk) 05:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• Priorities of Additional Defense Spending - Friday, 27 June 2008 03:50 - "A draft amendment to the 2008 state budget will bring total funding of the Ministry of Defense to GEL 1.395 billion – up by GEL 295 million."
• MPs Discuss Budgetary Amendments - Saturday, 05 July 2008 03:17

  As a result of the budgetary amendment, the funding of the Ministry of Defense (MoD) will increase by GEL 295 million to GEL 1.395 billion. The Ministry of Internal Affairs (MIA) will also benefit from the planned budgetary amendment as an additional GEL 40 million is earmarked for it. If approved, the amendment will bring the MIA’s total funding for 2008 to GEL 640 million, compared to GEL 467.4 million in 2007. At the same time the amendment envisages spending cuts for a number of ministries.

That's were the recent news, just prior to the war. --CopperKettle (talk) 06:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• Defense Spending, Number of Troops Increased - 15th July. "..Parliament approved on July 15 a proposal to increase the personnel cap on the Georgian armed forces from the current 32,000 to 37,000 and also supported to increase defense spending by additional GEL 295 million..." --CopperKettle (talk) 06:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The facts are of direct relevance to the conflict, as they show that the attack on Tskhinvali had some serious preparation behind it. The Russian Army is much more in size and variations in its budget, if there are any, might be explained by the vastly expanding oil revenues in the recent years. --CopperKettle (talk) 06:19, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

No doubt it did have "serious preparation behind it". However, there is a great deal of evidence to support the argument that the Russian response had "serious preparation behind it". One could add all sorts of material about rising nationalism and [revanchism]] in Russia. How about a comparison of Russia's military budget to Georgia's, so readers can judge which power should more reasonably be afraid of aggression by the other?Bdell555 (talk) 06:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Comparison? Why not, fine; and the reports of border concentrations of the troops, if there were any, could be added. --CopperKettle (talk) 06:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

My point is that after this has all been done such that we don't have an undue weight problem, we'll have a big chunk of material that rightfully belongs in the

2008 Georgia-Russia crisis article. The article would just be too big.Bdell555 (talk

) 06:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Alexis' material gets right to the point, and is accordingly much preferable to this mess of data of yours. The problem in any case remains, what, if anything, does it say about "Georgia's interests"? If it says that Georgia is aggressive and Russia is "non aggressive", as has been contended in this section, then Wiki ought to be also include material that may suggest Russia is being aggressive, in order to avoid

WP:UNDUE. In other words, the comments of Sweden's Carl Bildt should be added with respect to "Russia's interests" in order to show that the relevance of the passport status of South Ossetians is controversial. I don't see anything in the "Russia's interests" section that suggests that Russia's interests are not anything but admirable and reasonable.Bdell555 (talk

) 06:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• Leave it, and probably add the info on Russian military manoeuvres (on the borders?) and spendings prior to the conflict. --CopperKettle (talk) 06:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

If you are going to compare Georgia's military spending from year to year, then we should be comparing the size of Georgia's military budget to Russia's. You could take the 2008 number and compare it to another year, and say that's evidence of aggressive intent, and someone else could take the same number, and compare it Russia's, and say that that's evidence not of aggression but of a recognition of a need for defence. What's absurd about this is your argument that Georgia was creating an arms race. You can't have a race when the other guy is already a mile ahead of you. Why does Russia have such a huge military budget compared to Estonia? Is Estonia going to take it over? These are all relevant comparisons if any budget comparisons are in order. I think it would expand the section too much. As it is, this "interests" section just serves to have Wikipedia lay out Russia's various arguments for invasion, without any acknowledgment of what's wrong with those arguments. It's POV enough already.Bdell555 (talk) 06:44, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

If the numbers placed in that section evoke false connotations, maybe we should just move this paragraph out from the "interests" caption? --CopperKettle (talk) 06:52, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Now we are getting somewhere. Use Alexis' material (so it is not OR) and then put it into the

2008 Georgia-Russia crisis article where it belongs.Bdell555 (talk

) 06:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

If you really insist on getting your concern's about Georgia objectives into the article, start by using Alexis' non-OR numbers, above, and then create a stub "western interests" section. In that "western interests" section, it could be explained to readers why western powers think that, for example, the arguments expressed in the "Russian interests" section make for very problematic precedents.Bdell555 (talk) 06:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

This info is relevant for this article imho. SO expressed its worries about the increase of Georgia's military spending (see the article I've already quoted, that also say about some 'independent experts' worrying 'that it could undermine the peace processes with the breakaway territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia'). Since their worries materialised the info about the growth of Georgia's military spending over the last few years should be in the article. Alæxis_¿question? 07:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have no idea why the increase in the military budget of Georgia should be included in the Georgia interests section. I read the entry and it states the official reasons being attributed to it's wish to join NATO. I have read nothing that has stated that in order for Georgia to join NATO, it first had to regain control of it's breakaway provinces. So in what context are you inferring that it has anything to do with the current war? The reference also specifically says that the increase was not for dealing with the breakaway provinces. Do you have another reliable source that states in fact that another provision of the increase was budgeted to deal with current and ongoing problems with these provinces? Otherwise I cannot see the relevence. --

talk

) 08:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

So basically you say that the fact that one side of the conflict 'had the highest average growth rate of military spending in the world' is not relevant for an article about this conflict?

Anyway, this connexion has been made for example in this article by Foreign Policy In Focus and by a Russian delegate at the Conference on Disarmament ([36]). Alæxis_¿question? 09:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

There was a tripartite peacekepeer force stationed in the territories; and how could you bring back a nearly monoethnic province that gained de-facto independence 15 years ago? The only way is talks and attempts to heal the wounds (Georgia attackes S.O. in 1992, that time there was no Russian help, and Ossetians pushed the attackers back). --CopperKettle (talk) 11:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

So was Russia, 400,000 conscripted men, 32 billion to 40 billion defense spending- armor division prepared and massed along the Georgian- Russian border.

Sometimes it seems, sources contradicts the article. For example, there was a statement that "on August 13 russians occupied Senaki" with links to New York Times and Anniston Star, none of the articles even mention that city.Garret Beaumain (talk) 00:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

One can use {{

Talk

08:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I found this in the "censorship"

"Fox News cut off an American-Ossetia girl, Amanda Kokoeva, after she stated that she was attacked by Georgian Forces and saved by the Russian Troops."

1. If you watch the link, you will find out that not only did she complete what she said- but it rolled for another couple of minuets afterwords.

2. The commercial break was nothing special- it actually seemed to have lasted longer then most small interviews FNC dose- i will guarantee you that whoever posted this doesn't watch FNC, nothing was out of place.

3. This is speculation on my part, but how dose a 12 year old girl tell the difference between two sides who wear the same uniform, who has been in Russia right after they fled- what proof do we have that they aren't being told what happened by the Russian state-run media? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat (talk • contribs) 02:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

It was discussed higher on this talk page. Seems to me she was not cut off intentionally. --CopperKettle (talk) 02:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Just for your consideration. Georgian troops were in american-style uniform. 3D camouflage, AFAIK, which much different from russian. Vadimkaa (talk) 10:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

under what section? I must have missed it.

Jade Rat (talk) 02:47, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat

Talk:2008_South_Ossetia_war#Fox_News_video_with_12-year_old_girl_and_her_aunt_that_arived_from_the_conflict_zone - here. --CopperKettle (talk

) 02:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, ok i missed that —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat (talk • contribs) 02:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Reworded it a little to move it from this hypie style:

There were allegations in the internet that the Fox News channel cut off an American-Ossetian girl, Amanda Kokoeva, after she stated that she was attacked by Georgian Forces and saved by the Russian Troops, while the people accustomed to Fox programmes said that such commercial cut-offs of are not out of order there. This video also allegedly experienced multiple problems with the counters available on YouTube. The video rating and view count are not being updated and new comments are being deleted.[187]

How are Youtube counters at all relevant to this war?Bdell555 (talk) 03:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

They might be relevant in the propaganda war, which is a no small part of this conflict. But probably this all is just an inflamed imagination; I saw more that 8000 comments there and the viewcounts may be just lagging; so this statement could be deleted if there are no definitive corroboration like some wayback internet machine. --CopperKettle (talk) 03:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that sounds a lot better- its a lot more neutral i think. Jade Rat (talk) 10:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat

The time line skips from August 9 to August 11. Important stuff happened on the 10th. Jason3777 (talk) 03:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Bdell, I don't understand two things: why you're deleting so much material on the the grounds of original research when the sources are listed, and why you're so passionate about the material being deleted. It doesn't seem very important or contentious to me. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 06:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Please read the original research policy. It doesn't matter if all the sources are reliable. You can't synthesize material like that in Wikipedia. Note my request to use Alexis' numbers instead as a minimum. They quote articles that DIRECTLY say blahblah GDP %. It is the procedural or form issue that is the greatest problem here, as opposed to the content. Notice that the GDP number Alexis found is different from the one calculated by original research, as well.Bdell555 (talk) 07:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

To be specific, it's secondary research, which is still banned by wiki's original research policy. I deleted what I could confirm to be secondary research. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 07:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Scratch that, it is original research. My memory of the exact wording of the policy was fuzzy. We need to find someone else saying it before we can say it, even if it is true. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 07:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I've rewritten this passage so now it's fully sourced and no

WP:SYN accusations can be raised. I'll now try to find some info on SO and Abkhazia's military spending. Alæxis_¿question?

07:44, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Looks good. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 08:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

and Russia's military budget in comparable currency. It is highly misleading to present Georgia's military budget and then imply that Georgia's military is unreasonably and aggressively oversized given the size of the military of a country that could and has invaded it.Bdell555 (talk) 14:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

again, however, there is another, sub-article that is appropriate for background material. This article is about the war itself.Bdell555 (talk) 14:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Sergei Bagapsh claimed the republic spent 25% of its 2006 income on defence. The whole income was 1.1 bln roubles ($ 40 mln approximately) so Abkhazian military expenditures were about $10 mln then.. Alæxis_¿question? 08:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Why are there two sections in talk concerning the Georgian budget? Aren't there enough sections to read through that we don't need to start making duplicates and triplicates? If we add a comment in one do we need to copy/paste in the others as well?? --

talk

) 08:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

That's my bad, I added a new section to the talk page without reading the previous section. Though to be fair, we did reach a solution faster than if I had taken the time to read the entire dispute. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 08:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Did you happen to read the comment I left in the previous section? I didn't realize it was being discussed further down the page and definately didn't know that a solution was reached so fast. Did this solution take in to account my questions concerning the addition? That is why I feel having multiple sections on the same topic is counterproductive, because it bypasses the full need for consensus. --

talk

) 09:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Answered above. Alæxis_¿question? 10:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not trying to say that Russian media are unbiased, but look at this brilliant piece of journalism from Fox News: Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia. --Eraser (talk) 07:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Military_of_Georgia&diff=prev&oldid=232276293 --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 08:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Myself, and about 12 other have already disputed this. We watch FNC, cutting people off to go to a commercial break is extremaly common- nothing is out of place. This also happened at the end of Studio B they had no choice but to go to a commercial.

Jade Rat (talk) 09:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat

Some has better start cracking the whip when this talk page is being used rapidly. How does this section contribute to discussion on helping the wikipedia ARTICLE?

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 9. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 9 at the Reference desk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_original_thought Lihaas (talk) 10:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I visit and see LOTS of discussion lately is about Fox fucking News. Can't you people discuss any reliable sources, instead? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 08:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

FNC is one of the most reliable, and the most watched cable news in America- i don't know where you are getting that it's "unreliable" unless your into the conspiracy that its the "Vast right wing propaganda station".

Jade Rat (talk) 09:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat

Those who watch it don't know if Europe has states like the US does? so I'm not surprised by their choice--

Ч

) 12:11, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

" * Russian Air Force- retired during the 1990s."

Obviously false, as at laeast one was shot down by Georgians in 2008. In 2007, RIAN also had a story "Russia conducts Tu-22 strategic bomber drills in the south".

Maybe retired and then brought back, as no replacements came?

"Operational history" section should be too updated. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, it's Tupolev Tu-22M. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgians brought down

Tu-22 (and the RIAN article is also about Tu-22M). Alæxis_¿question?

10:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

But they said "Tu-22" and this is what everyone repeated. (The RIAN article title also said "Tu-22" in the title.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

1. UN refugee agency - 88,000 Georgians Displaced

2. No Signs of Russian Withdrawal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.177.151.101 (talk) 10:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Do not clear it, please, be objective. If it is possible - add it to the page.

The new Internet site Russia-vs-Georgia have been created recently. The main goal of this site is to give all visitors do voting one of the side and comment it . The authors asserts that «Project doesn't support any of the sides. Our aim – together with visitors investigate real situation.»^[1]. The abbreviation vs is striked, obviously it is the hint to understanding that «Russia is not versus Georgia». --Korolev Alexandr (talk) 11:16, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

We only use real sites, not a vote system.--Jakezing (talk) 13:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

That about placeing this information to the page

International reaction to the 2008 South Ossetia war as a one of reactions ? --Korolev Alexandr (talk

) 13:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The lead section no longer accurately serves as an introduction to the entire article. It seems rather to merely describe the initial days of the conflict. I think it needs to be rewritten so have tagged the article. Perhaps we could discuss on this Talk page and get some consensus first as to what elements ought to be in the lead section. N2e (talk) 16:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

http://www.antiwar.com/regions/regions.php?c=Georgia has good list of article links going way back which is a good chronological overview and has some good reliable sources. Carol Moore 17:05, 16 August 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

New report by Human Rights Watch. [37] --93.177.151.101 (talk) 07:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

"This is the first known use of cluster munitions since 2006, during Israel’s war with Hezbollah in Lebanon." This should also be mentioned in the

Do it. (Asking/noticing people usually brings nothing on Wikipedia.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 07:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Btw: bombing of Gori notbale enough, now? (Plus killing of journalists including the Dutch and injuring of the Israeli one and a lot of attention/reports in the media.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 08:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

That's all so strange. I'm absolutely sure, that the first time i've heard of cluster bombs, was report in russian media, accusing Georgians of their usage. There was video footage, showing unexploded allegedly western-made bomb found in Tskhinvali right after Russians took it. Wasn't that shown on some western media channel? And i didn't get it from the HRW report, but whether they've seen any evidence to russian cluster bombing, except photos and georgian doctors' statements? Cus, usage of cluster bombs for the purpose of destroying "warplanes producing factory" seems laughable to me - they're designed to take out uncovered people, not factory equipment safely hidden inside buildings. ETST (talk) 12:56, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

It was standard practice in WWII to attack targets with a combination of high explosives, to destroy buildings, and

cluster bombs, to kill first responders and make it harder for them to be rebuilt. I see no reason to rule out that the Russian Air Force used cluster bombs on the factory, particularly if the likes of Human Rights Watch says they did. It would make good strategic (though bad moral) sense; and Russia doesn't have the best record when it comes to inhumane armaments -- they used a lot of thermobaric weapons

in Afghanistan and Chechnya. (And the US and UK use thermobaric weapons!? Ugh -- I had liked to imagine they were better than that...)

However, if you can find a reliable cite that the Georgians used cluster bombs in Tskhinvali, it wouldn't hurt to add that. That means a neutral cite, from a third party with a reputation for neutrality and no stake in the conflict -- Human Rights Watch, the Red Cross, Reuters. Other news services not affiliated with governments -- the BBC, the AP, etc. -- can probably be relied on, too; but the Russian media have been producing an awful lot of maskirovka in this war... ExOttoyuhr (talk) 01:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, such strategy is quite understandable - when we're talking about expected-to-be-prolonged wars that is. But in the context of a conflict, which i doubt anyone expects to last for more, than a month, be it in Russians' intent to leave Georgia, or conquer it(which i doubt, cus frankly speaking, be it that way, we would have seen it already; forgive me for my nationalism, that's certainly not the variant i want to see realized), such multi-layered destruction with its unnecesary long term disruption of factory work, while risking civilian lives, may be termed overkill, too gross, in my opinion, for actually taking place. Besides, i was mistaken(please forgive me, i sometimes get confused over "what media and when said who did what"; there are so much news on the topic, and wikipedia editing and news watching is not my main dedication at the time), in Gori, it was not a factory, it was said to be a military storage(i think. gotta verify me if you wanna make sure. i just keep on losing the links). I think, there will be nothing to restore, even after conventional bombing - poor building is likely to be torn apart by stored military explosives and munitions, the latter being damaged beyond usage, no matter what. Cluster bomb is useless against building, be it alone or following conventional one. OK, enough of my POV. What can i say, i was unable to find any links with evidence on western-made unexploded cluster bomb in Tskhinvali, but the people i've asked, seem to remember the mention of it in one of early reports, so i gathered this: statement on discovering the bomb after Georgian shelling was issued by S.Ossetia gvt on 9th of August, and could have been ref-ed at OS-inform(S.O. news agency)website, but yesterday it was cyberattacked, and the article in question was lost(though there are hopes, it will eventually reappear, as those people told me, based on their previous similar experience). So, if it have survived the attack, i might present it here, the only thing, troubling me, being you won't consider it a reliable source. ETST (talk) 18:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's an interesting video from FOX News: http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=3029011&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://search2.foxnews.com/search?access=p&getfields=*&sort=date%3AD%3AS%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&client=my_frontend&filter=0&site=video&proxystylesheet=my_frontend&q=Harrigan Jason3777 (talk) 01:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

à la guerre comme à la guerre; interesting news. --CopperKettle (talk) 02:19, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

This is surely off topic, but I'd note that if these are, in fact, "Georgian irregulars", it is exceedingly strange. There are so many oddities, in fact, I decided to note them all in a blogpostBdell555 (talk) 06:18, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The Fox journalist says in the video that he was sitting with Russian forces before the attack came. It would be unusual for Ossetian irregulars to attack Russians. Esn (talk) 07:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

and the AP story says that "journalists gathered near the Russians tanks, taping and photographing them up close and attempting to talk to the soldiers" as well when "the situation turned ugly. South Ossetian militiamen, who are allied with the more disciplined Russian troops, appeared". Do you seriously think that "Georgian forces" would show up at the Russian checkpoint and "attack Russians"? With pistols and no armour? This after running from Russian armour for days? and that such a Georgian attack on Russians wouldn't be newsworthy to all the other media there?Bdell555 (talk) 15:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what happened, but I'd just like to add one more thing. The infobox currently mentions that there are Georgian volunteers (aka. "irregulars") as well, some from Azerbaijan. Esn (talk) 22:13, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

It certainly is suspicious, without the rest of the video showing what they saw- when Georgian il-regulars literally aimed at civilians or they where just caught in the cross fire of a raid. Just speculating- but since Gori is undisputed Georgian territory why would Georgians fire on its own people- even if it was under occupation? To my understanding the ethnic tensions are between three+ groups the groups would not fired on its own civilians, so i think this is awfully suspicious.

Jade Rat (talk) 12:35, 17 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat

• Why the United Nations have not made of any decision in the first days of conflict? About it in article it is not told...--Shift register (talk) 12:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Because we don't know either?--Jakezing (talk) 13:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, what matters is the United Nations Security Council which will not make any relevant resolution since both Russia and the USA have veto power.

So don't expect a major decision or a resolution from the UN.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 15:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there no self-policing?

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 9. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 9 at the Reference desk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_original_thought Lihaas (talk) 15:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

You are overreacting or misreading.

An editor complained to the fact that we don't have a decision from the UN yet, I explained that it is futile to expect one.

Maybe we should mention the fact the UN in this conflict is being paralyzed by the United Nations Security Council.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 15:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Is that something new? Seriously, is it a new thing that the UN can't get anything done because of russia's veto? --Jakezing (talk) 16:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

With citations, by all means do so. But the other comments certainly don't pertain to improving the article. Lihaas (talk) 22:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The article at present is 114 KB long. Please keep in mind the average standard article size. While it is generally 32 KB, some featured article in wikipedia are 70 KB long. But more than 100 KB articles should be divided. If necessary, split information from this article to new articles. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 15:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I feel that the article is bloated.

Some of the information is highly detailed and unecessary, we are listing the items present on Belarus' aid to South Ossetia!

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 15:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

One could start by spinning out the "statements" section.Bdell555 (talk) 18:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

AGREE This was discussed previously and appeared to have a consensus, but was reverted. Why do we need a "statements" section instead of incorporating them into the article? If the statement can not be addressed in other sections, already within the article itself, then all it is doing is making an already HUGE article into a monstrosity.--

talk

) 20:09, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Only the August 12 one (which killed less people, even if a Dutch reporter among them).

[38][39] Some of the most iconic images of the conflict. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 16:34, 16 August 2008 (UTC))

What's your point? what does it have to do with the articlE? Lihaas (talk) 22:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=AGfCkPU1-TA

What do you think about this? Are those Russians?

Jade Rat (talk) 18:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MCmfj0uQXs&feature=related

I'm not sure what they are saying, but could someone please translate and confirm what i think this sounds. looks like? I know those are Russians, but what question dose the journalist ask that causes such defensible outrage from the Russian men? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat (talk • contribs) 19:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Please FOCUS. what does this have to do with improving this ARTICLE?? Lihaas (talk) 22:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

An issue relevant to the article is whether Russians themselves are involved in looting, of just allied militias, but this video is said to describe Russian regulars and Russian operated vehicles. I don't know Russian, so can't comment on what is being said here.Bdell555 (talk) 23:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The second video you give is mainly expletives. Some more clear expressions: "They had everything... everything!" "And still they lost!" [OK, an expletive to the sense of "lost" is used] 132.68.248.44 (talk) 00:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

In the second video - they look like regulars, but may be Ossetians (white ribbon, supposedly one of them has a Georgian uniform). Who knows. The initial dialogue is: "What fork is that?" "Go away, OK?" "And the fork, where from?" "And what difference does it make to you? Go away, I am telling you!" "But I find it interesting - where does the fork come from?" (2nd soldier:) "We are turning back" "A golden fork, where from?" (3rd soldier:) "To the first - to the first car. TO THE FIRST CAR!" "Golden fork, where does he have it from?" [cut]

The second part is harder to make out because of the argument, but it starts with: "And you - why do you have a Georgian uniform?" "Because this is not a Georgian uniform". 132.68.248.44 (talk) 00:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

It has a lot to do with the accusations made against South Ossetia, and Russia- Georgia claimed they had been looting in Gori, but Russia denied it and i thought the videos could be investigated into seeing if they where authentic and what side was responsible, weather they are Russians, rebels, or Georgians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat (talk • contribs) 12:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I call for the reversal of this edit which removed information ont he effect of the war on the Greek diaspora living in Georgia, as I cannot see any reason why this information cannot be in the article. I perceive the information as enhancing our encyclopedia. NerdyNSK (talk) 19:03, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but this article is already way too big. If we include every nationality affected by this conflict and their respective governments actions to secure their safety it would be even worse in size. I can empathize with all peoples involved and displaced in the conflict but can't see where it adds any substantive improvement to the article itself. Peace. --

talk

) 20:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The Borjomi Gorge, which is important for Georgia's economy, is deliberately set ablaze by Russians according to Georgia.[40]

If there are "massive fires", independent sources will report them. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 19:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

[41]

They are several reports about forced labour being made by Russian forces on Georgian population. Is this a violation of international law regarding treatment of civilians by military ? --Molobo (talk) 19:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

"They are cleaning up after themselves," said Mikhail Mindzayev, South Ossetia's interior minister. (...) "Labor even turns monkeys into humans," the Russian officer said. And this is what I call confirmation (by now "only" be media, though). They seem to be pretty open about this (Comrade Mindzayev in particular) - maybe they'll even isse an official statement. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 19:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Convention concerning Forced or Compulsory Labour Of course South Ossetia is not a reckognised country, which is convient as it can claim it has no obligation to the likely unsigned convention. However this won't be an escape-since Russian forces control the region all responsibilty falls on them. Then again-it is a threat to control SO politicians with and keep in line. Usefull and quite well thought over.--Molobo (talk) 19:44, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Good find Molobo, I added a sentence about it to the Humanitarian section. Hobartimus (talk) 19:47, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Another Russian official admission of war crimes

"Now Ossetians are running around and killing poor Georgians in their enclaves," said Major General Vyacheslav Borisov, the commander in charge of the city of Gori, which is occupied by the Russians.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/15/europe/ethnic.php --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 23:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

And therefore Russia needs to stay in Georgia to protect Georgians from those Ossetians. Nothing surprising here.--Molobo (talk) 00:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Who let the "Dogs of Wars" free is responsible for all their criminal activities! If Borisov has bad luck he will be in Den Haag sooner or later. In the mean-time regular Russian soldiers can be watched on TV looting villages in central Georgia. Elysander (talk) 00:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

It's really, really poor. Don't delete it, though. If noone does, I'll rewrite it eventually. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 20:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't we need to create a new section about attacks on Press? Above there is a discussion about turkish reporters. Israeli journalist Tzadok Yehezkeli was shot in Gori. It was reported that dutch cameramen was killed (and so it was seen o TV). I have no dutch sources but here are some israelis:

• http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=SimpleSite/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1218446183878
• http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=16895
• http://www.infolive.tv/en/infolive.tv-27361-israelnews-israeli-journalist-injured-georgia-flown-home

and here are Youtube sources also about Dutch cameramen:

• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrHHMwtIE6Y&feature=user
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6EQlfTThkI&feature=related

Shmuliko (talk) 21:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The Dutch journalist was Stan Storimans of RTL, killed by cluster bomb at a media center in Gori already after Georgian army abandoned the city. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Storimans (I'll made Stan Storimans) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:35, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm Dutch and it was said on the news he was possibly killed by cluster bombing. Wife of Mikhail Sakaashvili Sandra Roelofs, herself Dutch, will attend his funeral (he was a famous cameraman). 62.163.232.175 (talk) 21:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I made a stub of an article, expand if you want. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:47, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. The link to this stub will help. :) Shmuliko (talk) 22:03, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm cleaning up the humanitarian impact section right now, and there was this:

• British journalist Andrew Wilson of The Times reported that he was assaulted and almost killed by Ossetian fighters.^[2]

Moved here. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 23:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Whoever might be collecting it (and there are MANY attacks on and robberies of the press), "Earlier, a Sky News team was robbed at gunpoint on the outskirts of Gori by men thought to be South Ossetian separatist militia."^[3] --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think wikipedia slowly biasing to Pro-Russian side about conflict as alternative media because they're no mention "or ceased" in article about attacks to reporters and journalists. (And of course there are no info about Russian tanks and solidiers robbery to Turkish Truck Drivers). http://www.taraf.com.tr/haber.asp?id=14681 this Turkish newspaper report robbery against Turkish TIR (Ttuck) drivers Also August 13 and 14 News Bullettins "Channel D-Kanal D", "NTV" and "CNN Turk" Truck Drivers Mentioned They're robbed or wanted bribe by russian soldiers. Ozan, Turkey, 18:20 17 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.213.176.221 (talk)

It seems that someone insists on deleting material that might suggest that the piece by Paul Reynolds of the BBC concerning western media bias against Russia is questionable. Although you can click here for a full account of all the problems I see in this BBC story, that's not what I'm adding. Rather, I'm adding "Other western media editors disagreed with this view... with the Washington Post arguing that Moscow was engaging in 'mythmaking'" cited to here. Perhaps the deleter can explain why the BBC's views should be featured in this section and not the view of the Washington Post.Bdell555 (talk) 21:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's the link , 44 captured georgian tanks , the russian army will keep them

http://www.rian.ru/osetia/20080816/150423062.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by FiReFTW (talk • contribs) 22:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Funny, because just yesterday they said 65 tanks.[42] Will it be 22 tommorow? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 22:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

You may want to actually read the first article... first. --Illythr (talk) 22:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, 65 found, 44 of those kept, 21 destroyed(irreparable?). 68.151.34.161 (talk) 08:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Should it be incorporated it into the article? Lihaas (talk) 10:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm concerned about the extent of this edit by "Captain Obvious". There appear to be several sourced comments that were removed here, without any discussion as far as I'm aware. If Captain Obvious feels these sources are unreliable, I'd like to hear more details. Richwales (talk) 00:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Compressed:

On August 13-14, already after the official ceasefire, Chicago Tribune,[133] Los Angeles Times,[134] Novye Izvestiya,[135] The Guardian,[136][98] The Independent,[137] The Washington Post,[138] and Sky News,[139] among others, reported Georgian government and refugee stories that Ossetian and sometimes also other pro-Russian irregulars (including reports of Cossack and Chechen paramilitaries) and even some Russian regular soldiers were looting and burning Georgian villages in South Ossetia and near Gori. These reports sometimes also including stories of the other, crimes like kidnapping, rape and indiscriminate murder, and could not be independly confirmed; as BBC News reported on August 14, "The testimonies of those who have fled villages around South Ossetia are consistent, but with all roads blocked and the Russian military now in charge of the area, the scale of alleged reprisal killings and lootings is difficult to verify."[140]

No need for citations or details of the refugee stories.--Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:50, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Phew.

I must say: you guys write really badly.

Now, next: "Statements by involved parties" section SHOULD BE INTEGRATED INTO THE ARTICLE (some - the important stuff) OR DELETED (the rest). Do it yourselves. I'm not alone here. (Even if sometimes I think I'm the only one serious. Like right now.)

And, god damn it, put the titles, sources and dates in your sources! --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey!! Cool down

Shakespere, DumZiBoT

is here to take care of that tedious work.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 04:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The ending of this sentence in the curren version of the lead:

The war began after a ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia broke down (each side accused the other of breaking the ceasefire), and Georgia entered South Ossetia with a large military force leaving the the capital Tskhinvali largely destroyed.

seems POV in that it calls the city "largely destroyed" while the significant destruction is in the form of "patches", mainly focused on the Ossetian government area. Maybe something like: "... Georgia entered South Ossetia with a large military force, causing significant destruction to parts of the capital, Tskhinvali." could be a compromise. 132.68.248.44 (talk) 01:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

More POV: There's 3 images of destoyed buildings in tskinvali now, and only one of gori. One picture of tskinvali should suffice (per

Done. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 01:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

According to Saakashvili? You're joking. No, the description shall stay as it is. --CopperKettle (talk) 10:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, apart from damages of Tskhinvali, introduction does not mention destruction caused by Russian military attacks of Gori and Poti. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 02:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree with Alsandro, Gori was completely devastated by Russiam bombardment. Iberieli (talk) 02:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Again and again - the official Russian POV is pushed into the intro. The same paragraph has been made much worse than it was before. Bolded are the most obvious violations of WP:NPOV:

The war involves the country of Georgia, the Russian Federation and the breakaway republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Irrespective of who was responsible for the break down of ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia, the war began after Georgia unilaterally launched a major military offensive[17] against th republic of South Ossetia with a disproportionately large military force and killed atleast 2000[18] out of the 70,000 South ossetian civilians. In the following battle, the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, was heavily damaged. About 24,000 to 30,000 South Ossetians fled into North Ossetia (in Russia)[19] 11,190 of those went back after russian intervention in the war [20]

• Ever heard about bilateral offensives?
• Disproportionately large? In proportion to what? To Russia's forces? To the intended (and not reached!) objectives?
• Do we still have to take the initial Russian propaganda about 2000 dead, dropped even by the Russian media?
• Why is Georgia suddenly "the country of Georgia"? Is there any doubt that it might be the U.S. state of Georgia that is involved?
• What happened to the spelling: "atleast", "ossetian", "russian", no full stop at the end...

132.68.72.110 (talk) 14:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I attempted to edit the Introduction to make it less dubious (as it was marked with that tag). While I edited it, another user also edited it. Those changes are on the front page: "...attack by Georgia into one of two provinces, South Ossetia, which had undertaken two polls in 1992 showing a popular will for independence,[17] The other one, Abkhazia, had declared independence sixteen years ago in 1992.[18] Neither province had found international acceptance." 1. I think this is too much information for the intro to the article. 2. If I understand correctly, Georgia only entered South Ossetia. Does the bit about Abkhazia really belong here? 3. Would it be better to simply state that South Ossetia unsuccesfully declared independence in the early 1990s, rather than having the (in my opinion) slightly unnecessary bit about the 1992 polls? Ridan (talk) 15:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Souhtossetia1.jpg
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bombed_civil_building_in_Tskhinvali_2008.jpg
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tskhinval_(South_Ossetia)_after_Georgian_bombardment_on_August_8,_2008.jpg

Author Unknown;
Permission (Reusing this image) Non-commercial use with required attribution; commercial use only with written permission of the author

what

Could anyone screen them on the copyright issues? My spider sense says "speedy deletion". --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 01:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to using the photos per se (assuming no legal issues - are they used on another language Wiki?) but the source seems to be HIGHLY partisan. A partisan source is not necessarily unreliable of course, and "a photo doesn't lie" per se, but the description of that photo might. I think it is important to state that the photo is from a Russian source, and state that in the caption. Yes, that's unusual, but look at the claims on the osinform.ru website: "Georgian fascists’ atrocities ... outshone those of World War II Nazis". That's pretty strong language!Bdell555 (talk) 01:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Souhtossetia1.jpg was stolen AND miscaptioned (it's AP photo from Gori).[43]

This media file may meet the criteria for speedy deletion.

The given reason is: This image was stolen from http://www.daylife.com/photo/08d3553gUx8AL/Gori and was taken by Bela Szandelszky, clearly the uploader lied about the source which claims "Osinform." This image was stolen from AP Photo and GettyImages which is under strict copyright laws, see link above, also the description section was falsified, the image description from which this image was stolen, states: "A Georgian man walks by his destroyed apartment building in the city of Gori, Georgia, Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2008. Russia ordered a halt to military action in Georgia on Tuesday, after five days of air and land attacks sent Georgia's army into headlong retreat and left towns and military bases destroyed. More than 2,000 people were reported killed."

Can we have a ban for Mr. LokiiT for stealing and lying? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 03:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Second image seems to be ok. Photogrpahs - [44]. The permission - http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=610#610. --Anton Gutsunaev (talk) 03:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia ‘seizes US weapons’

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=66770&sectionid=351020602 —Preceding unsigned comment added by FiReFTW (talk • contribs) 02:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Should it be incorporated it into the article? Lihaas (talk) 10:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

That is far from being honest and fair- it implies that the cargo planes where filled with weapons, not humanitarian aid. In reality we had supplied Georgia with countless arm deals over the years (as well as many other countries), and in all likeliness supplied them with out more effective rifles for Iraqi deployed Georgian units.

We have supplied all NATO members with the M-16 rifle, and i don't think it should come as a surprise that Georgia received shipments. That being said, it is well known that Georgia had m-16s before the conflict began, as well as Israeli weapons, and Russian weapons.

Speculation: Why would we make the situation worse by supplying rifles that would make no real impact on the outcome? Against the overwhelming odds what good would a few rifles do?

The following image which was removed [45] and falsly stated that the destroyed appartment buildng was in Tskhinvali, in fact it was in Gori. This image was stolen from [46] and was taken by Bela Szandelszky, clearly the uploader lied about the source which claims "Osinform." This image was stolen from AP Photo and GettyImages which is under strict copyright laws, see link above, also the description section was falsified, the image description from which this image was stolen, states: "A Georgian man walks by his destroyed apartment building in the city of Gori, Georgia, Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2008. Russia ordered a halt to military action in Georgia on Tuesday, after five days of air and land attacks sent Georgia's army into headlong retreat and left towns and military bases destroyed. More than 2,000 people were reported killed". I want to ask all neutral contributors to PLEASE monitors such gross violation of copyright laws, falsification of the mage description (to make one side more victim while vilifying the other). This is yet another example of how propaganda and falsification of data is carried out by some users on this article due to latest crisis. Please help us to prevent such falsification, lie and provocations on Wiki. Iberieli (talk) 02:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think we should assume good faith and keep in mind the possibility that it was rather osinform.ru that lied.Bdell555 (talk) 03:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

disinfrom.ru. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 03:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Well I did not locate that image of Gori on separatist web site "Osinform" Hence the good faith. Iberieli (talk) 03:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

"Good faith" regarding whom - the uploader? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 03:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I found that image on a messageboard, the person who posted it said it was from the website I cited. I, not being able to read Russian, couldn't double check. Please calm down and stop making personal attacks and accusations of bad faith.LokiiT (talk) 03:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

You could have double-checked by running the source page through Babel Fish or Google Translate instead of trusting some random messageboard poster as a reliable source. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 04:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think there should be a separate article on Aid after the 2008 South Ossetia war. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 03:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think there should be a criteria filtering which aids are worth mentioning. Right now even Lithuania's modest aid of 86,000 euros is being mentioned.

Are we really trying to keep track of every single aid sent to Georgia?

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 04:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Proposed revision and restructuring of timeline. Because the timeline now has a main article link, this one should be highlights of events. There is room for cuts, but my proposed changes emphasize style here. My intention is to keep information the same and only to improve the section’s writing.

Please assume good faith.

There have been changes in this timeline since I began reworking it, so I have not intentionally left out later changes. Feel free to update this proposed revision. I offer them on the discussion page in the spirit of collaboration.

A timeline should be written in the present tense, but I am not personally invested in the tense. A timeline should be written in a clipped style, different from the body of the article. Thus my rewrites usually place the subject and action first. I may have unintentionally changed the meaning and even the dates in an attempt to clarify. For example, “By morning, Georgia announced that it had surrounded the city” – so this would now be the next day, after the start of hostilities, August 8th, right? The UN meeting occurs during the night of the seventh, but after midnight, thus on the 8th. Are we going to use New York or Georgia time? 1:15 a.m. in NYC is (I believe) 10:15 in the morning in Georgia. And another issue for fact checkers, please check that the footnotes remain correct – some started out wrong. There are still contradictions and repetition that needs to be changed. There are important military issues that are left out and others that don’t need to be here.

I have placed my comments in parentheses.

(The first paragraph does not belong here. It belongs in a general introduction to the subject. I suggest removing.)

South Ossetia and Abkhazia are territories within Georgia that individually declared independence from Georgia and have each been acting in de facto independent capacities since the early 1990s. Neither state has been diplomatically recognised by any member of the United Nations. Georgia has offered limited autonomy to South Ossetia and Abkhazia, but both have declined.

August 1, 2008: intermittent low level conflict between Georgia and South Ossetia escalates. Georgia and South Ossetia trade accusations on ceasefire violations.[49][14]

August 3: South Ossetians (civilians ?) evacuate into Russia. (SOURCE?)

August 5: Russian ambassador Yuri Popov warns that Russia will intervene if conflict erupts.[50][51]

August 7: Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili orders a Georgian ceasefire,[52][53] but fighting intensifies.[54][55] President Saakashvili vows to restore Georgian control over the "criminal regime" in South Ossetia and the breakaway territory of Abkhazia.[55] Georgia launches a night offensive against the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.[56] Heavy shelling leaves the city in ruins; Russia characterizes the resulting humanitarian crisis "a genocide by Georgian forces." Russian media extensively covers Georgian shelling.[57][14] Citing reports of up to 2,000 dead in Tskhinvali, Russia military intervenes, maintaining its mission is to defend South Ossetians.[58]

Subsequent reports dispute reported civilian casualties.[59]

(The preceding sentence does not belong here in this timeline, because it refers to later discoveries. I leave it to collective editors to politely exchange commentary over the proper place for the phrase.)

August 8: Georgia announces in the morning that it has surrounded the capital and captured eight South Ossetian villages.[60] An independent Georgian TV station announces that the Georgian military controls the city.[61]

8 a.m. (Georgian time, 11pm U.S. EST) Russia requests a United Nations Security Council meeting; 10:15 (Georgian time, 1:15am US EST), meeting opens, with Georgia attending. Council members cannot reach consensus on a statement calling for an end to hostilities. [62]

(ADD DATE/TIME) Russia troops cross Georgian border, into South Ossetia.

(This section needs specific dates. The previous version – “in five days of fighting” – does not fit with the rest of the day to day timeline, though it may work later in a shorter summary.)

(ADD DATE?) Russian forces capture the regional capital Tskhinvali.

(ADD DATE?) Russian military pushes Georgian troops out of South Ossetia. OR Georgia retreats from its offensive in South Ossetia.[64]

(ADD STARTING DATE?) Russia carries out airstrikes against Georgia’s military infrastructure far beyond disputed territories.[63]

August 9: Russian Navy in the Black Sea sinks Georgian missile boat following a reported attack. Georgian ships retreat. Abkhazian forces open a second front in the Kodori Valley, the only Abkhazian region remaining under Georgian control. [66]

August 10: BIGFOOT FOUND IN CAUCACIAN MOUNTAINS!!! WAR STOPS FOR A DAY!!! NOTHING HAPPENS!!

(Can we fill in this date?)

August 11, Russian paratroopers in Abkhaz attack Georgian military bases, cutting off Georgian troops in South Ossetia from reinforcements. The Russian military maintains they are not part of the Abkhaz assault on the Georgian forces. Russian forces destroy a military base outside Abkhazia near the town of Senaki.[67] The Georgian government reports Russian military action in port of Poti and the town of Gori. Russians shell Gori; deaths include Stan Storimans, a Dutch reporter from the RTL channel. [68]

(The following sentence does not belong here unless it comes from a source.)

Since Gori is along Georgia's main highway, its occupation by Russian forces would cut Georgia's lines of communication and logistics in two.

Most international observers call for a peaceful solution to the conflict.[70] The European Union and the United States propose a joint delegation to negotiate a cease-fire.[71] Russia rules out peace talks with Georgia until the latter withdraws from South Ossetia and signs a legally binding pact renouncing the use of force against South Ossetia and Abkhazia.[72]

August 12: Russian President Medvedev reports ordering military operations in Georgia to end.[73] Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze maintains that Russian jets continue to target civilians.[74] The British Daily Telegraph journalists report seeing no Russian troops in Gori. [69] Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says “The status quo in South Ossetia and Abkhazia is no longer possible.” [63] Russian president Medvedev approves a six-point peace plan brokered in Moscow by President of the Council of the European Union, Nicolas Sarkozy.[75] Russian troops surround Georgian port of Poti.[76]

August 13: Russian tanks reported at Gori. Russian troops reported camped on road one hour north of Tbilisi. Georgian troops reported to occupy same road six miles (about 10 km) closer to Tbilisi.[77] All remaining Georgian forces, including at least 1500 civilians from the Kodori Valley, retreat to Georgia proper. [65]

August 14: Russian occupation of Poti reported; Russia denies occupation; New York Times claimed that some Russian statements depend on the "technicalities of the definition of occupation." Russian troops fail in attempt to return Gori Georgian authorities. Attempt to institute joint Georgian and Russian police patrols in Gori breakdown, apparently due to discord among personnel.[78][79]

August 15: President Saakashvili signs the 6-point peace plan in presence of United States Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.[80][81] Reuters reports that Russian forces advance within 34 miles (55 km) of Tbilisi, the closest yet during the war; they stop in Igoeti. The advancing

Russian convoy includes 17 APCs, 200 soldiers, including snipers, a military ambulance, and initially, three helicopters.[citation needed]

August 16: Guardian and the BBC confirm that the Russians had occupied Poti, as well as military bases in Gori and Senaki, destroying at least six Georgian ships and seizing large amounts of United States-made Georgian weaponry. The general staff in Moscow states, "There is a presence of our armed forces near Gori and Senaki. We make no secret of it." "They are there to defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever."[82][83]

U.S officials report Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov’s pledge to "faithfully" implement the ceasefire agreement. According to a U.S state department official, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice phoned the minister after convincing Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili to sign the EU-brokered ceasefire. An official reports that the Russian government had required President Saakashvili sign the agreement first.[84]

(Note: as with other sources, this one does not quite match the text. The widely reported pledge to “faithfully” implement the ceasefire does not appear in this BBC report. I leave it for others to correct, even as I revise the prose.)

Adjpro (talk) 05:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The factual, but probably not as terse style is better suited for the linked Timeline article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2008_South_Ossetia_war. More narrative style of the timeline in the main article makes it easier to read and matches the rest of the article. I would rather see the section renamed in future to something like August, 2008: Conflict Escalation. Other than that, your proposed changes make some points which should be discussed in the context of the Timeline article. Most of Wikipedia timelines seem to be using UTC.Gleb (talk) 06:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian media http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/17/pullout/

USA media http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSLH49224220080817

British media http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7566199.stm

--195.98.173.10 (talk) 07:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

There are some refutations of this information

Russian media http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/17/nopullout/

--195.98.173.10 (talk) 09:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Supposedly only to start in earnest Monday. Verification needed. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 13:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

We apparently have had serial problems with uploads of non-free images of the war under faked or missing or otherwise dodgy licenses, by multiple accounts.

I'm now instating a zero-tolerance policy for such uploads here. Enough is enough. Please keep in mind that almost every image being taken of this war that turns up on this or that website will be non-free. You can't upload these. Forget it. No matter how badly you want to use them, you just can't.

Any account found uploading Ossetia-related war images with missing or wrong source or licensing information, here or on commons, will be blocked immediately, indef, and without prior warning.

If in doubt about whether an image is okay for upload or not, ask first, upload later.

Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

RIA Novosti allows us to use its materials (including photos) for free in "public free reference, educational and country-research (страноведческих) resources". [47] Why can't we upload them to English Wikipedia (not to WikiCommons)? Alæxis_¿question? 10:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

We'd require a license that allows free re-use for any purpose, including commercial. Failing that, the only avenue would be "fair use", but that is generally only possible for images that are in themselves so famous ("iconic") that we have whole articles, or at least sections, about them as photographic works. Fair use must include a "transformative" use component, i.e. we must be talking about the image as such, not just using it as a vehicle to illustrate something else. War photographs just to illustrate what the war looked like aren't covered; see

WP:NFC, section "unacceptable use". Fut.Perf. ☼

10:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'll try to find some free images of Tskhinvali... Btw I think it'd be POV to have only photos of Gori in this article. Alæxis_¿question? 11:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Go to Tskhinvali and make photos. This is how Wikipedia works. (Unless there are some photos by te US Gvt agency - American law makes them public domain.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I again advise you to mind

WP:NPA. Thank you for your consultation on how this project works. Fyi, I've uploaded 600+ photos to Commons, about half of them made by myself. Many of them are for Abkhazia-related articles. I haven't yet been to SO but when I will I'll certainly make some photos. Alæxis_¿question?

12:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Personal what? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 12:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Never mind... Btw, aren't you User:HanzoHattori? Alæxis_¿question? 13:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

More photos:

http://lenta.ru/photo/2008/08/16/calm/

Most of them are Abkhazians and South Ossetians, but there are Russians and Georgians as well. -- 91.77.88.175 (talk) 10:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

... and please see the section just above. Hands off. These are AFP pictures. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I've just liked this one. Wanted to share etc. After all to be neutral one needs to understand that no matter which side it is, soldiers are people. Most of them fight not because they like to kill or loot or whatever, but because they have somebody to protect. -- 91.77.88.175 (talk) 10:34, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, why not? Maybe not fit for the Commons, but why not place them in the article? --CopperKettle (talk) 10:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

See answer in section above. And recent commercial news agency pictures like those from AFP are a no-no, under any circumstance. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Cityvalyu Edits on Aug. 17

I don't want to get caught in an edit war, but the majority of the edits made to the article today by Cityvalyu have so unbalanced it to a pro-russian point of view and seriously calls into question the further neutrality of it. I reverted one edit he/she made taking Georgia's stated reasons for initiating the attack on S.O. out of the Intro. section, and leaving only the reasons stated from Russia. This type of rampant nationalism/bias/vandalism(?) editing needs to stop to preserve the integrity of this article. --

Ok he reverted my UNDUE and changed it back to his POV citing that it does not carry weight with other statements in the Intro. The Brig Gen Col was the Senior official of the Ministry of Defense in the area and in charge for overseeing peacekeeping operations for the Georgian Ministry of Defense. I'm NOT getting involved in an edit war nor am I going to press my own POV of the matter. It's up to the editors of this article to reach further consensus on the matter--

talk

) 13:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

in respose, let me post the discussion in my talk page below(Cityvalyu (talk) 13:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)):

brigadier statements not equal to president/ prime minister statements

The Brigadier was the Senior goverment offical for Georgia in S.O at the time of the attack, as well as, being the person in-charge of the Georgian peacekeeping forces in S.O.. I believe his statement as the commander in the area holds a LOT of weight.--

one of the numerous brigadiers not equal to president/ primeminister..he is not even the defence minister..revert to combatant statement section..nevertheless if you want to add russian peacekeeper statements and south ossetian peacekeeper statements (&all the staements by russian brigadiers in charge of a particular operation), feel free to add (AFTER ADDING similar RUSSIAN AND REPUBLIC OF SOUTH OSSETIA statements for maintaining NEUTRALITY) that PARTICULAR georgian brigadier's opinion too Cityvalyu (talk) 12:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

nevertheless your reverting it? If you remember your comment about my "owning the english language" made on my user page, now your acclaiming your owning of the

talk

) 12:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

YOUR BAIT IGNORED..should i revisit the old issue of "your miraculous ability to talk using something else"'?!!..i WONT ..

COMING BACK TO THIS ARTICLE, i find that no edit summary to justify your actions..i didnt own as my edits conform to neutrality clauses of wiki.. see above reply "if you want to add russian peacekeeper statements and south ossetian peacekeeper statements (&all the staements by russian brigadiers in charge of a particular operation), feel free to add (AFTER ADDING similar RUSSIAN AND REPUBLIC OF SOUTH OSSETIA statements for maintaining NEUTRALITY) that PARTICULAR georgian brigadier's opinion too "Cityvalyu (talk) 13:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

An attempt to take the matter from this talk page to users talk pages? Regardless, his edits are still POV and biased. See cited references and compare to edits. Highly biased and POV. He even states not to revert one of his edits on controversial subjects without first taking it to the talk page for consensus???? Then perhaps he should follow his own advise. I'm through with it. Other editors beware. Make your edits while he is online with care because if they don't adhere to his POV he will take charge. Have a nice day editing all. --

talk

) 13:42, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

= inserting biased claims with spurious references

Im this edit Cityvalyu introduces claims that Georgia's initial invasion killed 2,000. Apart from also introducing bad POV language, the two external links which are provided to support this are completely spurious in that the first a) is based on a statement by Kokoity, and b) mentions 1,400 at the most (the headline in the reference is false) and the second external link basically doesn't deal with this issue at all. So I made two edits reverting this introduction of very poorly sourced biased material to what I found in an edit several hours ago (which was better still in that it didn't contain the POV term disproportionally). Cityvalyu reverts with the edit summary of "read previous edit summaries to understand why it looks different from 6 hours before..edit summary false?" I do not know what to respond to this as I am unable to see what previous edit summaries Cityvalyu is referring to. __

You should have looked further up the talk page under the section "Edit War Prevention." I've already had my battle with him. I'm done. --

talk

) 14:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Recent propaganda edit fight

user:Cityvalyu has recently implemented mass biased changes in the introduction text and he or she seems to have violated Wikipedia's three-reversion limit. The guy should be prevented from polluting the article with pro-Kremlin bias. I would also ask the users who are allowed to edit the article to place the sign that shows that the current text is not neutral and factually accurate.--93.177.151.101 (talk) 13:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

no spurious reference inserted..i have not reverted anything thrice or i have not violated 3rr..please check your claims! all edits well explained to maintain NEUTRALITY..edit summaries can be seen adjacent to the edit time in the history page..please use edit compare option available in the history page..and avoid biased personal abuse USING LIES..Cityvalyu (talk) 14:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

requesting admin to delete this whole section harping on personal hatred attacks on an editor for sake of following wiki policy of neutrality and 'referenced' truth..Cityvalyu (talk) 14:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I have not been around this article all day to be able to verify the assertions by other editors that you are massively involved in propaganda editing (i.e. POV pushing). I have only counted one incident which I have detailed above. However, this incident was grave in my opinion, and your adamant insistance on protecting your (in my view) outrageous edit makes me question whether you should be prevented from editing on this topic altogether. So you go ahead and request that an admin remove this section and I'll start reading up on pertinent guidelines for having a user who abuses his editing privileges barred from editing on this subject. __

talk

) 14:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

editor hatred shall not come in the way of stating neutral referenced facts (which need not be georgian/US pov)..please feel free to cite any error on my part..note that your (meco) edit above contains unproven lies against me!! you can also notice that other than you two, other valid users have accepted my neutral view..see the number of editors who have edited since then..stop personal bashing in an article's talk pageCityvalyu (talk) 15:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

We have a little illegal arms deals scandal brewing. Photos from S Ossetia show Georgian soldiers armed with Heckler & Koch G36 carbines, which have never een allowed fro export. source in Gemrna: here. Might be better in the article about Georgian miliatry, as it only circumstantially pertains to this war in particular. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 13:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, seems that US have been pumping Georgia with arms. --CopperKettle (talk) 15:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The first side to note combatants crossing the border was the North Ossetian volunteers. They said these "volunteers" where going into S. Ossetia. My question is, "Why is this not in the introduction of the article?". These people where armed Russian citizens that lived in Russia. PlanetCeres (talk) 13:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Which border? Georgian troops didn't cross internationally recognised borders at all (there was no invasion of Russia). The border between Georgia proper and South Ossetia was crossed first by Georgians. Alæxis_¿question? 13:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia did not cross the Russian border. The border between internationally recognised Georgia and Russia was crossed by Russians (illegally) prior to Georgia crossing their provincial border with South Ossetia.PlanetCeres (talk) 13:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

There was a peacekeeping process going on. For 15 years. Tripartite peacekeepers. From time to time there were shootings. Then Georgia starts shelling the city blocks out of the blue and moving the tanks, taking no time to warn the Russian peacekeepers stationed in the city and attacking them. This facts is just smoothed over in Western media. --CopperKettle (talk) 15:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Many of my sources are Russian. It just didn't happen that way. I'm sorry.PlanetCeres (talk) 16:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I get it! Russian = liar. I'm ashamed to look in the mirror now.. I'm only 1/4 Jewish, so by 3/4 I'm a liar. And what right do I have to edit Wikipedia at all, being a "Russian source". --CopperKettle (talk) 16:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, on the night of Georgian invasion in Tskhinvali there were no CNN journalists hanging out due to moronic closed media policy created by Putin. So what? No CNN camera = no event? --CopperKettle (talk) 16:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there is an apparently BBC account of the 7.8-8.8 shelling. Also please refrain from sarcastic remarks, this page is already pretty tense. --Illythr (talk) 16:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Could you bring sources confirming this? afaik volunteers from NO began coming to SO in response to a Georgian offensive. Alæxis_¿question? 13:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes! Even though the Russian sources are being deleted. (May have to use cache's and archives.) Not according to dated and timed articles. PlanetCeres (talk) 13:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, then please show them here at the talk at first. Alæxis_¿question? 13:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The source of the "volunteers" entering was South Ossetian. There are numerous sources of them referring to "calling on" and "ready to" of friends and neighbours. Need them? PlanetCeres (talk) 16:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Volunteers arriving in South Ossetia - president's envoy Use the title in quotes in Yahoo/Google search if it has been deleted. PlanetCeres (talk) 13:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC) These troop movements seem to coincide with the evacuation of children. But, that is OR. ;)PlanetCeres (talk) 13:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yes. You're right of course. Alæxis_¿question? 14:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Please don't add this to the lead section - this information belongs to the background, since the conflict is defined within a 7.08-ongoing time scope. Same with other details that can go into their respective sections. Also please avoid long citations in the lead. --Illythr (talk) 15:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

It was an internal fight on 7.08. It was an international war on 8.08 when the Russians invaded in force. Starting off the article with "the war began on August 7" is POV, since it pulls a Georgian action out of the timeline and characterizes it as the action that started the war.Bdell555 (talk) 16:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. Russian peacekeepers were stationed there and stood up for the citizens of Tskhinvali against the first wave of Geogrian invasion. --CopperKettle (talk) 16:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

This incursion has ref from both sides and is relevant.PlanetCeres (talk) 15:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstand - it has a place in the article, just not in the lead section, which deals with critically important events. --Illythr (talk) 15:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I understand. But, both sides considered it important. It has equal weight with breakdown of talks and refugees.PlanetCeres (talk) 15:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

So far the lead has: ceasefire declared, broken, Georgia attacks, shells Tshinvali, Russia counterattacks, pushes Georgia back, enters Georgian (past S.Oss) territory. Casualties estimates, statements by key figures. All of this is indisputably critical. Other things might turn up as instrumental to the conflict (or its outcome), but these will have to be called such by some sort of serious military analyst (or be all over the media which seems to do just as well, sigh).

I think it might be important to mention that both sides began a buildup prior to the outbreak of hostilities, but it all will have to be sourced. --Illythr (talk) 15:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

These things can be sourced. But, to not mention combatants crossing a border seems unfounded.PlanetCeres (talk) 16:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

But, Georgia and Russia deny a "build up" by their militaries. (The SO's didn't. PlanetCeres (talk) 16:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, we don't even know those if guys were combatants. Russian and Georgian sides deny a lot of things. This doesn't mean they didn't happen - only that we'll need a very serious source to contradict them. (Like the HRW for the casualty figures, for example) --Illythr (talk) 16:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The source of the "volunteers" entering was South Ossetian. There are numerous sources of them referring to "calling on" and "ready to" of friends and neighbours. Need them? PlanetCeres (talk) 16:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Combatants, that is, those who have directly taken part in the conflict. --Illythr (talk) 16:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Armed men with weapons and uniforms intent on getting the bad Georgians.PlanetCeres (talk) 16:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Presumed intent and action are two different things. --Illythr (talk) 16:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Intent does not have to be presumed! They say it. Ow..PlanetCeres (talk) 17:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed the "in the event of Georgian aggression" part the first time around. Ok. --Illythr (talk) 17:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

You know I'm reading now an article in Novaya Gazeta and seems things are more complicated that we are both thinking. I'll be translating a bit of it now for the talk page in the "Timeline" article. There were clashes and provocations from 31st of July. --CopperKettle (talk) 17:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Nice analysis, although the outlook is totally off the mark. --Illythr (talk) 17:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

...that in the South Ossetian War article there is a reference to the fact that

Georgia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs website is currently hosted on Estonian server.[180

This is on a server in the US State of Georgia [Atlanta}

It is hosted by a compnay named Tulix {not Tulip...as misreported in some news sources). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.176.214.205 (talk) 14:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it's hosted on the Estonian server, see here