Talk:Sweden Democrats

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Left wing smear straw man terminology "nationalist"

Why not objective and name them "patriotic-conservative"??

Why do we allow left-wingers to frame parties in a negative way they dont like?? 93.206.57.177 (talk) 02:11, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

By "left-wingers," I assume you mean people who write about politics for academic publishers and mainstream news sources. We use their writings as sources rather than writings by far right extremists because the publications they write for are considered reliable. If you object to this policy, you need to get it changed rather than arguing here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Four Deuces (talk • contribs) 03:38, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The mainstream news sources have a massive left-wing bias and are for example in the USA rejected by the majority of voters.
CNN, Washington Post, MSNBC, CBS, PBS, NBC, ABC have a left-wing tilt and are considered biased and left-wing propaganda by nearly all Republicans.
According to the latest Gallup poll only a third of american voters trust mainstream news.
That`s your key problem: Your alleged "mainstream news sources" and "academic publishers" are NOT credible. Just listen to Jordan Peterson talking about the left-wing echo chambers he considers to be universities. 93.206.54.48 (talk) 00:56, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So we should listen to Jordan Peterson and Republicans on Facebook instead, those are the true reliable sources? TylerBurden (talk) 01:21, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If you think nationalism is something negative then that seems to more be a personal issue, because nationalism is an ideology. TylerBurden (talk) 21:14, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You do not call the left-wingers in swedish politics "far-left", "socialist" or "communist". Why do you have to frame parties you dont like in a negative way? SD would not consider themselves "nationalist", rather patriotic and conservative. 93.206.54.48 (talk) 00:59, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you making it personal? I do not personally think that SD is "far-right" either, but what I think and you think doesn't matter when it comes to the article content because it is based on what reliable sources say. You need to read
WP:NOTFORUM while you're at it because this kind of rhetoric isn't going to do anything to improve the article at all. TylerBurden (talk) 01:19, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
See their website: The Young Swedes "is a democratic socially conservative youth association with a nationalist outlook."[1] How is it a smear to call them what they call themselves? TFD (talk) 02:57, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They use the term themselves in their party statutes from 2021, in the first sentence (translated by me): “Sweden Democrats is a socially conservative party with a nationalist ethos”.[1] Using it in the article is in no way employing “left wing smear straw man terminology”, and definitely has a place in the article. Hale-Borz (talk) 10:02, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://sd.se/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/partistadgar-2021.pdf

Far right claim could be used by russian disinformation

I think the claim that the sweden democrats are a far right party could be appropriated by russian media to claim sweden which is about to join nato has a far right and nazi goverment 86.115.121.186 (talk) 13:11, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We cannot falsify facts just because they can be misused. TFD (talk) 15:52, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Russian disinformation campaigns have already been targeting Sweden since the intention to join NATO was made public, no sensible person takes them seriously. The article also doesn't objectively describe the party as far-right, but mentions that some sources have called them so. TylerBurden (talk) 03:29, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Difference between the English and Swedish Wikipedia page

I was just wondering on why the English Wikipedia page is different to the Swedish Wikipedia page regarding this party.

I’m mainly referring to the info-box. The Swedish page has the political position split into 2 sections, “socio-economic: center to the right” and “sociocultural: authoritarian right”. While the English one isn’t split at all.

The other confusing part I found is that the English page already expresses this in 3rd paragraph with this sentence “The Sweden Democrats support a mixed market economy combining ideas from the centre-left and centre-right”. So shouldn’t the info-box be almost the exact same as the Swedish page? Something like:

Socio-economic:

Big tent

Sociocultural:

Right-wing

Or perhaps something similar.

Also, maybe taking some (Swedish) sources from that Wikipedia page could be a good as well for this page. ZlatanSweden10 (talk) 23:40, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We should remove the "political position" field. Although in this case, the party is far right, in most cases where any party belongs in the political spectrum is subjective. There is no contradiction btw for right-wing parties to hold positions typically favored by the center or left and vice versa. Successful parties consider both their ideology and the circumstances when choosing policy. `TFD (talk) 10:32, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I understand. Then I think then it would be suitable to have 2 sections that I've seen with other political party Wikipedia pages. Such as with the Nationalist Party in the Philippines. One section with "Claimed" and the other with "Traditional spectrum". Both with tagged with sources/references to support both claims. I just think that would overall be better in fulfilling both claims of the party being this or that. As I'm not trying to push my opinion onto this page. I would just like both opinions to be expressed into the info box, which is where most people glance upon when viewing this page (especially after the victory the party has had after the 2022 election). ZlatanSweden10 (talk) 11:04, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, we should not have the field, precisely in order to avoid disputes like this one. Far right for example has two definitions: to the right of established right-wing parties and on the farthest right of the left-right spectrum. Right-wing populist parties for example usually meet only the first definition. TFD (talk) 12:02, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Got it. Either remove the field completely like you said. Or perhaps add a content note, like what Alternative for Germany has on its political position info box to avoid confusion with other Far-right parties who oppose democracy and etc. ZlatanSweden10 (talk) 13:21, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Because the far-right label is disputed, even among reliable sources, I would agree with removing the infobox entry. Infoboxes are great for straightforward facts, not disputed definitions. TylerBurden (talk) 18:09, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I 100% agree. I believe the Alternative for Germany Wikipedia page had this same issue a while back, and I think the way they handled it at the end was well done. Just keeping it simple with "Right-wing populism" as the ideology (they used to have 8+ ideologies which were all disputed). And just having "Far-right" (with a detailed and straight forward content note), rather than "centre-right to right-wing" one month, then changing it to "right-wing to far-right" the next, then changing it again to "right-wing", then reverting it again.
The Finns Party (who are part of the Right-wing "Nordic Freedom" affiliation the Sweden Democrats are in), also have a fairly simple info-box like how Alternative of Germany have it, with just 2 ideologies and "Right-wing" in their info-box. ZlatanSweden10 (talk) 19:42, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If you insist on putting something in the info-box, most editors will want to see far right. I wouldn't look to other articles for a precedent, because they can be changed. TFD (talk) 21:50, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
True. Though the Finns Party info-box (ideology and position) hasn't changed for almost a year. ZlatanSweden10 (talk) 22:03, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Many right-populist parties, and indeed fascism itself, was pragmatic on economics, so a party being economic interventionist doesn't make it any less far-right, especially when it supports the welfare state only as welfare chauvinism rather than universalistic like social democrats; as we write at Conservatism, "some conservatives advocate for greater economic intervention, while others advocate for a more laissez faire free-market economic system." Right-wing populists are still described as radical-right or far-right because that's their positions, per TFD. "Europe's nationalists rebrand, and win" could be useful. Davide King (talk) 12:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I understand. Now that I look at it again, the fact that "fiscal conservatism", "laissez-faire" or "economical liberalism" isn't in the ideology section should directly answer the party's (SD's) fiscal/economic ideology, and makes my edit idea/request pretty much redundant.
Perhaps adding welfare chauvinism into the ideology section would be a good idea? Similarly to how some parties within the welfare chauvinism have it within their ideology info-box (Freedom Party of Austria and Party for Freedom). ZlatanSweden10 (talk) 22:10, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think with all those parties, we should list 'Right-wing populism' in the infobox, as that's their main ideology and is how they're commonly classified by academics. Anything else, from anti-immigration to anti-Islam, Eurospecticism to welfare chauvinism, and the like, which are better seen as political positions than proper ideologies (despite the -ism), should simply be moved with the sources to the lead where they can be listed without bloating the infobx, and in the body, where they can be further discussed and contextualized. Davide King (talk) 17:00, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ideology parametre

I believe that the number of ideologies should reduced to a couple or few. I think the following should be in the parametre:

  • Swedish nationalism
  • Right-wing populism

ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 12:14, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The ideology list for the Sweden Democrats page should be reduced to a similar amount like other Nordic right-wing/far-right parties. Like the:
- Danish People's Party*
- Finns Party*
- Denmark Democrats
- New Right (Denmark)
(*) Part of the Nordic affiliation of Nordic Freedom which the Sweden Democrats are a part of
Also somewhat recently, every other party in Swedish Parliament got a reduction in ideologies. Such as the Moderate Party which used to have ideologies such as Green Conservatism, Left Party used to have Republicanism, and so on. Not sure why the Sweden Democrats didn't got this treatment as well. ZlatanSweden10 (talk) 12:38, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ideologies need reliable sources. Doug Weller talk 13:50, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not denying that. Was just mentioning how other Swedish political parties got a reduction in ideologies in their info-boxes to make them more of condensed and easier to read. ZlatanSweden10 (talk) 14:59, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In all honesty, I'm more in favour of the references being in the "Ideology" section of a page. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 13:53, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. ZlatanSweden10 (talk) 22:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's an improvement. I would prefer each party be given one ideology unless it is has factions with distinct ideologies, although I cannot think of any, except briefly following mergers. TFD (talk) 22:48, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think two or three ideologies is okay. After that, I'm against. Maybe in place of these ideologies, they should be the ones with the most references? ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 10:29, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why have multiple ideologies and if you do, why stop at 2 or 3? TFD (talk) 13:46, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Simple reason is bloat. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 13:47, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See what
ultranationalist', 'right-libertarian
' and so on"."
Essentially, using several terms that mean the same thing is already bloat. TFD (talk) 13:49, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That may be the case, but we are only talking about having two ideologies. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 13:53, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Do the Sweden Democrats have two different ideologies? If so, can you name one leader who is Swedish nationalist but not a rw populist and one who is the opposite? TFD (talk) 14:00, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you mentioning leaders? I'm simply refining down from the current ideologies listed, which have references. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 14:02, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd agree with this change, though SD seems to be mainly associated with right-wing populism (see 206 scholarly sources). I'd exclude nationalism considering this sentence that can be found here: "Nationalism can be combined with diverse political goals and ideologies such as conservatism (national conservatism and right-wing populism) or socialism (left-wing nationalism)." Vacant0 (talk) 19:00, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point. Shall we all agree that only "Right-wing populism" shall be in the parametre then? ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 19:08, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would prefer national conservatism & right-wing populism Braganza (talk) 20:37, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That may be, but not many sources use "national conservatism", if at all. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 20:41, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since the Sweden democrats abide by multiple ideologies it would be unwise to remove them only because you don’t like how the page looks. It would be wise if you try and stick to distributing information to the public rather than suggesting removing information because of your personal dissent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Furgesson (talk • contribs) 08:58, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This comment doesn't seem to align very well with
WP:AGF, people are free to post suggestions whether or not you agree with them. TylerBurden (talk) 00:48, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

Presently the party's ideology just says "right-wing populist" without a citation. While I agree the SD contains right-wing populist ideas, I believe it should be expanded (but not too bloated) to include the fact the party self-identifies ideologically as nationalist and social conservative, and this is backed up by academics, political scientists and commentators who refer to the SD as such. Previously the ideology was expanded with citations but these were removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:4080:1316:85D0:E52D:96C:A6BD:33E4 (talk) 18:42, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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