Talk:Today (The Smashing Pumpkins song)
Today (The Smashing Pumpkins song) is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||
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On 19 March 2023, it was proposed that this article be Today (Smashing Pumpkins song). The result of the discussion was not moved. |
old discussion
The previous format of the chart positions was consistant with other articles on Wikipedia of the same type. If nobody justifies why it was changed, I am changing it back. -- LGagnon 03:36, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)
- Hi LGagnon, I hope I didn't offend. I changed it because 1) I don't see why it should be presented in typewriter font, and 2) I don't see why the song name should be repeated on every line. But it's not a big deal to me. --Dbenbenn 22:45, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I wasn't offended; I just wanted to keep the article consistant with the current style model. If you still think it would be better a different way, you can talk with the guys who run the music Wikiproject; they decide the standard for how the articles for albums and singles are done. But if you'd rather not, that's fine. -- LGagnon 00:12, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
- I didn't find anything at Wikiproject Albums addressing chart positions. I'll bring up the issue there. By the way, Pieces of Me is an example of a single that does it differently. Though I agree the fixed-width format is most common. --Dbenbenn00:39, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking up the task. The more concensus we get on such things, the sooner we improve Wikipedia's consistency. -- LGagnon 01:31, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
- I didn't find anything at
- It seems like the table format has become the preferred one lately, and I was told during a FAC nomination for another article that I should change the format to the table. I do think the tables look nicer. Everyking 00:45, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I don't really have anything against the table format. My only concern is with the uniformity of the articles; after all, Wikipedia looks more professional when there is a consistent style to it. -- LGagnon 01:31, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
- The non-tabled version is what we've been using, I guess out of tradition and because nobody wanted to do the work of making something pretty. I think DCEdwards has been the prime force in switching to the tabled version. Tuf-Kat 08:21, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
I feel that this song isn't necessarily ironic or sarcastic, although you could interpret it that way. I always found the lyric "Today is the greatest day of them all" sincere since the singer is uplifted knowing today he will commit suicide. So I changed the article a little so there isn't the claim the songs lyrics are sarcastic, but if you think my view is bogus let's talk about it. Rab V 08:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- I think it's sarcastic... just with the happy little guitar in the begining completely contradicting what's expect from a song about suicide... I'd just change the first sentence back to saying it's ironically upbeat. Underwater 01:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, but if you think that the singer might also be honetly happy thinking today he is going to end his life, or at least see this could be a valid interpretation I don't think we should lay down one way of understanding the song like it is absolute. Rab V 02:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
GA review
This article is well written, it has a good
- Ok, thank you for the review! --Brandt Luke Zorn 03:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)]
Live versions?
Hey, I'm a big fan of SP and like the articles on Wikipedia. Some of the singles articles discuss live versions and I think Today should also have this as it is perhaps their best known song. For example the early incarnations of the song stuck to the Siamese Dream sound, wherease during the Adore era it was acousticified if played at all. Finally, it's now taken on a short solo at the end as new live versions have shown.
Just a suggestion... DrBobert 19:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the suggestion. I have been meaning to get around to expanding on how the song was performed live (Brandt Luke Zorn 22:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)]
- I don't think the song is performed differently enough to warrant a mention. The way it's played hasn't really changed in any significant way at all, but that's just my opinion. MrHate 00:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)]
- I don't think the song is performed differently enough to warrant a mention. The way it's played hasn't really changed in any significant way at all, but that's just my opinion.
Grunge
This sounds like grunge? Anyone agree?
- It may sound like grunge, but the Smashing Pumpkins are typically associated with the wider genre alternative rock rather than the more narrow grunge category. --Brandt Luke Zorn 13:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)]
- The thing is though, alternative rock is such a wide genre that it does not give a good definition of their sound, don't you think. Alternative rock covers Thundermaster367 08:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)]
- The thing is though, alternative rock is such a wide genre that it does not give a good definition of their sound, don't you think. Alternative rock covers
- The Smashing Pumpkins explored a wide variety of genres (from the band's page we have gothic rock, heavy metal, dream pop, psychedelic rock, and progressive rock listed) but they usually aren't classified into a more specific alternative rock subgenre. Plus, if the "Composition and lyrics" isn't specific enough in describing the Pumpkins' sound, I don't think that a change as minor as a different genre tag would help a reader. --Brandt Luke Zorn 14:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)]
- The Smashing Pumpkins explored a wide variety of genres (from the band's page we have gothic rock, heavy metal, dream pop, psychedelic rock, and progressive rock listed) but they usually aren't classified into a more specific alternative rock subgenre. Plus, if the "Composition and lyrics" isn't specific enough in describing the Pumpkins' sound, I don't think that a change as minor as a different genre tag would help a reader. --
- Alt-rock is fine. Also note that in the "Composition" section the sound of the song is directly compared to that of The Cure and My Bloody Valentine, goth and shoegaze bands respectively. WesleyDodds 01:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- The band's main genre is alternative rock, but can't a single song be another genre (like Cherub Rock and Bullet with Butterfly Wings)? As much as I agree grunge was very influenced by alt-rock, the main influences were punk rock and heavy metal. --Marcos FTO (talk) 19:14, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:TodayIntro.JPG
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Fair use rationale for Image:Todaypromo.jpg
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Irrelevant?
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Definite article in band's name in article title
Shouldn't the title of this article be
FA concerns
This older FA needs some tuning up to get back to
Requested move 14 March 2023
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Procedural close to reopen as a properly formatted RM. — BarrelProof (talk) 21:53, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
Today (The Smashing Pumpkins song) → Today (Smashing Pumpkins song) – I do not believe that there should be a definite article in the page name (same with Rocket (The Smashing Pumpkins song)). As User:Dyspeptic skeptic points out above me, articles like Something (Beatles song) do not feature the definite article in their titles, so why should this be the same? It seems like a no-brainer to me, but I want to allow discussion to happen before a potential move takes place. JeffSpaceman (talk) 13:49, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- This is unfortunately not a properly formatted RM request. Because it was apparently not created using the method described at WP:RM, it did not get the {{Requested move/dated|Foo}} tag that would have included it in the list of active RMs. — BarrelProof (talk) 19:26, 19 March 2023 (UTC)]
- Thanks for letting me know, User:BarrelProof. I was not aware of how to format these, but it seems that taking this to WP:Requested moves helped me (partially) figure it out. JeffSpaceman (talk) 20:59, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
Requested move 19 March 2023
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) {{ping|ClydeFranklin}} (t/c) 18:08, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- Today (The Smashing Pumpkins song) → Today (Smashing Pumpkins song)
- Rocket (The Smashing Pumpkins song) → Rocket (Smashing Pumpkins song)
– "The" does not need to be in the hatnote (see also: various Beatles songs with "Beatles song" without the definite article as the hatnote). JeffSpaceman (talk) 17:01, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- This is a contested WP:RMTR discussion. — BarrelProof (talk) 21:58, 19 March 2023 (UTC)]
- I assume you mean the disamb (part in brackets)? As I couldn't see a hatnote on that page. -Kj cheetham (talk) 18:15, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Whilst I agree with you, I also note Talk:Today_(The_Smashing_Pumpkins_song)#Definite_article_in_band's_name_in_article_title (not sure that counts as discussion though!) -Kj cheetham (talk) 18:16, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- There is also a malformed RM at Talk:Today (The Smashing Pumpkins song)#Requested move 14 March 2023. — BarrelProof (talk) 19:22, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- On the other hand, there's Drown (The Smashing Pumpkins song) and Tonight, Tonight (The Smashing Pumpkins song)... -Kj cheetham (talk) 18:18, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Everything in Category:The Smashing Pumpkins songs uses "The", the main article is The Smashing Pumpkins, and there is definitely precedent for using "The" in similar disambiguation tags (not the Beatles, but see London's Burning (The Clash song), Never Enough (The Cure song)...) 162 etc. (talk) 18:50, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- This is not uncontroversial. My recollection is that the latest discussion of this issue allows either form, while encouraging consistency within each group's body of work. Comment update providing further detail about the historical background: An RfC discussion is recorded at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Music/Archive 8#RfC: using "The" in song/album article titles. There was a consensus declared on 23 August 2019 that the "The" should not be included in such cases, and a lot of articles were moved in the next couple of months to reflect that. The Beatles was one of the highly discussed examples. That consensus was then declared overturned on 11 October 2019. Although the consensus to not include "The" was overturned, there was no decision to say that "The" should be included either – so we ended up with the MoS being neutral on the subject. — BarrelProof (talk) 19:37, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- In which case I oppose this move for the sake of being consistent with the other articles. -Kj cheetham (talk) 19:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
Ping to those who commented in the RMTR discussion: Kj cheetham and 162 etc. — BarrelProof (talk) 21:59, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: Also note Category:The Smashing Pumpkins albums as well as Category:The Smashing Pumpkins songs. The outcome should be consistent for all works by the Smashing Pumpkins. I lean slightly toward support in these cases, but only if the same change is applied consistently to all their songs and albums.— BarrelProof (talk) 22:07, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose: Per Kj cheetham's reasoning above. Moving these article will only introduce inconsistency across the Pumpkins' articles. I recall moving Give Me a Reason (The Corrs song) for similar reasons after someone took out the "The". Furthermore, the band's article is titled "The Smashing Pumpkins", not "Smashing Pumpkins". I refer to this as the "master" article. Unless it's renamed, the "subordinate" articles should stay the way they are. (To compare, note the naming scheme of Black Eyed Peas articles—all without "The".) ResPM (T🔈🎵C) 12:41, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per above. There is no policy-based reason to remove "The", and their other songs are all disambiguated as "The Smashing Pumpkins". See ]