Template:Did you know nominations/Thomas Charles Sorby

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 12:38, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Thomas Charles Sorby, Grove Road Cemetery, Harrogate, Robert Ackrill, Fridel Meyer, George Dawson (1821-1889), Richard Ellis (mayor), David Simpson (mayor), John Smith (banker), John Turner (miser), Daniel Schwarz (bandleader)

Former chapels, Grove Road Cemetery

• ... that
  Dawson, Ellis and Simpson, banker Smith, bandleader Schwarz, newspaperman Ackrill, kayaker Meyer and miser Turner
  ? (149 characters excluding (pictured) and the last 9 bolded names)

• ALT1 .. that
  G. Dawson, R. Ellis and D. Simpson, banker J. Smith, bandleader D. Schwarz, newspaperman R. Ackrill, kayaker F. Meyer and miser J. Turner
  ? (149 characters as above)
• ALT2 ... that
  George Dawson, Richard Ellis and David Simpson, banker John Smith, bandleader Daniel Schwarz, newspaperman Robert Ackrill, kayaker Fridel Meyer and miser John Turner
  ? (149 characters as above)

• • Reviewed: Muhammad al-Jawad, Mohamed El-Amin Ahmed El-Tom, Mandera Prison, Killing of Richard Ward, Frank Gadsby, 2023 Huwara rampage, Mycobacterium, Killing of Nathan Heidelberg, AFL Women's season seven, Margaret Cote
  • Comment: All articles were moved to mainspace on 13 March 2023, except Thomas Charles Sorby, which was 5 x expanded on the same date. Please credit Edwardx the creator of Thomas Charles Sorby for DYK too. Thank you.

5x expanded by Storye book (talk). Self-nominated at 16:18, 15 March 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Thomas Charles Sorby; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Reviewing: I will review this nomination. -
  WP:WAWARD
  ) 02:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• Thank you TonyTheTiger for saying that you will review this. If I understand correctly, you are not expected to review more than one article plus its citation for the hook - unless you want to review more than one. @BlueMoonset:, could you please confirm whether I am right? I don't want this nom to be putting an unnecessary pressure of work onto one reviewer. Storye book (talk) 10:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• Storye book, TonyTheTiger has reviewed many multi-article DYK nominations, typically all of the articles, and I'm sure knows that one or some rather than all could be reviewed, but I imagine would prefer to do them all for QPQ purposes based on past experience. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:14, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• WP:WAWARD
  ) 20:14, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• I have two questions that any DYK admin could advise on:
  1. You have proposed a 218 character hook for 10 articles. This is a long hook, but I feel the article names are oddly truncated mononymously. None of these are biographical subject that are actually known mononymously. Would a 300-character hook in which names are fully expressed be acceptable?

• @TonyTheTiger: These are historical articles about the 19th century or early 20th. In that era, friends and superiors would call men and boys by their last names, at school and at work. In formal situations such as newspaper reports (newspapers were mostly formal, then), men were called Mr or their initials were used, e.g. Mr Smith or J. Smith - except in obituaries where their full name would be given once, usually in the title, thereafter it would be Mr Smith. I don't suppose any of them was ever called by their first name during their lifetime (apart from close family), unless in a law court or similar. Subject to theleekycauldron's response to my question below, I think that adding their initials wold be the most appropriate thing do do here. In a formal setting, the woman Fridel Meyer would be Miss Meyer or Mrs Dalling-Hay during her lifetime; we can't use that here, so she would have to fit in with the men on this occasion, and be F. Meyer. I hope that is acceptable? Storye book (talk) 12:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• I have now added an ALT1 above, the only change being that I have added initials to all the names, in line with my reasons mentioned above. It is 220 characters, so is possibly subject to theleekycauldron's limit of 200 characters, as she had mentioned below.Storye book (talk) 12:30, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• I am not sure if that is the correct way to go or not. I have never addressed such a long hook before.
  WP:WAWARD
  ) 17:58, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• ALT2 is certainly short enough. Per
  WP:DYKSG#C3, A hook introducing more than one article is an exception to the hook length rule: subtract from the overall count the bolded characters for each additional new article beyond the first. If the result is 200 or less, the hook length is probably acceptable. Without all the bold links beyond the first and "(pictured)" the hook has only 154 prose characters. BlueMoonset (talk
  ) 23:08, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• Done. I have not asked an administrator to check it yet. Will do. I have now asked an admin to check for any remaining redirects (though I believe I've done most of them) Storye book (talk) 12:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• Update. The two page moves have now been checked by an admin (Keith D) and all is now complete. Storye book (talk) 16:50, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• Thank you, BlueMoonset and TonyTheTiger, for your answers. That is a great help. I had been worried that someone might do all that work and only get one QPQ. So thank you for your kind patience with my questions, and for your help, both of you. Yes, I would be happy to offer an new, longer hook, and to disambiguate those two articles as mayor - I'll do it shortly. I have also realised that I had forgotten to credit (for DYK recognition) the original creator of the Sorby article that I have expanded, so I'll do that shortly, too. Please let me know if there is anything more that I can do. Storye book (talk) 20:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
• Update. I have moved Richard Ellis (Mayor of Harrogate) to Richard Ellis (mayor), but updating all the links afterwards took a long time, and it's late where I am. I shall complete the above tasks tomorrow. Apologies for the delay. Storye book (talk) 21:33, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• Have an admin make sure that you did the proper moves for all the necessary pages and templates. (unsigned)

• Done (no reply from them yet) and admin-checked. Storye book (talk) 12:34, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• I am concerned about all the copyvio tests for two pages: Grove Road Cemetery, Harrogate registers at 66.2% for the most problematic citation, while Fridel Meyer is at 43.8%. Other pages are not as bad, but even Thomas Charles Sorby at 24.2% could probably use some rephrasing. When you have a chance review these pages using the copyvio link and see where the worst violations are.-
  WP:WAWARD
  ) 21:56, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• @TonyTheTiger: I have completed all your other requests; the above request re copyvio is the only one not completed, as of now. I am surprised at your comment, as I always use quote marks or blockquote fully, and give full citations for quotes. However I shall try to look at it as soon as I can, bearing in mind that it is Mother's Day today, and my time is not my own. If I can't do it today, I shall complete the task tomorrow. Storye book (talk) 12:49, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• I have now checked Earwig results for Grove Road Cemetery. There is no copyvio there at all. Earwig only finds properly-marked and cited quotations, and proper names which cannot be rephrased. The long quotation - which I guess must be the bit that worries you - is from an 1885 newspaper article, which happens to have been copied online. Being copied online does not make it copyvio, if its source is cited. The original is dated 1885, and the quotation in the Grove Road Cemetery article is already cited to say that. Additionally, I have clarified the citation. I shall check the other 9 articles in Earwig later., but I suspect that the result will be the same. Earwig does not differentiate 19th-century texts from modern ones, and does not differentiate our cited 19th-century texts in quotes from real copyvio. Please note that quotations, long and short, in historical articles, give a valuable glimpse of how people saw their own events in their own time. That assists us to understand those events in context, and helps to prevent us from wrongly perceiving ancient events according to our own social attitudes. That is why I include quotations where appropriate. We are not allowed to interpret texts here, so showing a 19th-century quote allows the reader to do that, instead. Storye book (talk) 13:26, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oops. I just looked at the copyvio check result. I never doubled back to check whether it was properly cited.-
  WP:WAWARD
  ) 17:51, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• No worries, we've all done that. Nevertheless, I shall still check all of the other 9 articles with Earwig, in case I accidentally missed out a single quote mark or whatever. You never know. There ought to be bots to find single quote marks? Pathetic, aren't I - I have been using computers since 1982, and I have still never run a bot.Storye book (talk) 09:38, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• The hook is not a head-turner, but if we are going to shoehorn 10 articles into a hook spicing up the list with a variety of occupations adds some interest.-
  WP:WAWARD
  ) 22:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• Please see theleekycauldron's comment below, about the length of the hook. Depending on her answer to my questions, I may be permitted to give you the ALT that you are asking for, or I may not. Please see the comment on hook length by BlueMoonset above: it appears that I may be able to attempt to give you a hook with occupations after all. However I'll have to think about it: Turner is more interesting as a miser than as a moneylender, and Meyer's real occupation was flogging second-hand cars and prams, then being a mum; kayaking is more hooky. Meanwhile, although on its own hook ALT0 is "not a head-turner", the picture absolutely is. They were beautiful fairy-tale type spires, whose demolition was a great loss to Harrogate. So in my view, it's the combo between the hook and the picture which is hooky. Storye book (talk) 12:49, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Review table

Title	Article					Hook		Image			QPQ	Overall	Sign
	Newness	Length	Sourcing	Neutrality	Copyright	Citation	Interestingness	Copyright	Used	100px
Grove Road Cemetery, Harrogate													WP:WAWARD ) 17:20, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Thomas Charles Sorby								—		—			WP:WAWARD ) 17:27, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
George Dawson (1821-1889)								—	—	—			WP:WAWARD ) 18:40, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Richard Ellis (mayor)								—	—	—			WP:WAWARD ) 18:42, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
David Simpson (mayor)								—	—	—			WP:WAWARD ) 20:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
John Smith (banker)								—	—	—			WP:WAWARD ) 20:06, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Daniel Schwarz (bandleader)								—	—	—			WP:WAWARD ) 20:08, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Robert Ackrill								—	—	—			WP:WAWARD ) 20:18, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Fridel Meyer								—	—	—			WP:WAWARD ) 20:25, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
John Turner (miser)								—	—	—			WP:WAWARD ) 20:26, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• To answer your question about article length, TonyTheTiger, every bolded article after the first is exempted from the 200-character limit – but 200 it remains. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 10:54, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
  • WP:WAWARD
    ) 17:36, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
• Storye book, I'm not inclined to extend a credit to Edwardx unless they helped you with the fivefold expansion of the article – is that the case? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 10:56, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
  • @Theleekycauldron: Thank you for creating the table. I have checked the hook length in the Simple Word Counter linked above. Including the ellipsis and excluding "Thomas Charles Sorby" and "(pictured)", it's 191 characters. That is just luck, really. Although I did make an effort to keep it short, I had understood that a multiple hook was subject to more flexibility as to length than a single nom. Indeed, we have had multiple noms in the past which had up to 20 bolded links, which cannot have been under 200 characters. I was involved as one of the reviewers in one of them - about Indian politics or technology or something similar - and that only failed because a lot of the articles were not good enough; the hook length was not challenged. Can you give me an example of another 10-article hook which was within 200 characters?
  • I have requested credits to article creators before, and they have received due credit. Is there a rule that says creators cannot receive credit at DYK?
    • I concur that regarding giving creators DYK credits. I recently made such a request at
      WP:WAWARD
      ) 20:52, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
      • @Storye book and TonyTheTiger: In general, creators don't get credit if they're not involved in the expansion that makes the article eligible. Creators get credit for an article if it is brought to DYK due to its creation, of course; however, if the article is fivefold expanded or brought to GA status, however, receiving credit requires contribution to that improvement. Tony, do see Wikipedia:Did you know/Hall of Fame for hooks that'll blow your mind re: multi-hook length. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 23:06, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
        • WP:WAWARD
          ) 14:47, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• @TonyTheTiger: Thank you, I have seen your comments above. I am trying to deal with them in order, so I shall do the David Simplson (mayor) title next, then start the next task. I have limited time today (it's Mother's Day here, and amazingly it's the mothers who have to do all the work, be available etc.) so I shall probably still be dealing with your requests tomorrow. Storye book (talk) 11:22, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• WP:WAWARD
  ) 17:34, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
  • There is not, but I've hopefully structured the table in a way that makes it easy to replicate. I may make a template... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 23:07, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
• Is something wrong with the hook citation for Meyer?-
  WP:WAWARD
  ) 18:56, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• The citation for Meyer links to a news article by the Stray Ferret. That is an online news site which is much respected in Harrogate, and certainly authoritative and peer-reviewed. The hook sources only need to say that each person (except Sorby) is buried in Grove Road Cemetery. Thus, (if you are not in UK and can't get access) the Stray Ferret link says: "Grove Road cemetery has Fridel Dalling-Hay, who was an immigrant from Nazi Germany and became the first person in the world to circumnavigate the island of Britain in a canoe". They are wrong about the circumnavigation, but so was the late Malcolm Neesam, the revered local historian who contributed history articles to the Stray Ferret - and I have explained all that in the article. Storye book (talk) 09:38, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• • I just copied the review status as I saw it prior; might've been a goof on one of our parts :) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 23:09, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
• The text makes some point about multiple wifes of
  WP:WAWARD
  ) 19:23, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• I have added the two wives to the infobox, and clarified the para about the wives. After the first wife died, Ackrill married a second wife who had the same surname, Day. I guess they were sisters, but I have no citation for that. I hope it makes sense, now. Storye book (talk) 10:38, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• Many biographies use the spouse parameter with two dates indicating a union date and an end date with an indicator of whether it ended in usually (his death, her death or divorce). I suppose there are some other end possibilities (like maybe MIA, lost at sea, missing person), but the main ones are the three I mentioned).--
  WP:WAWARD
  ) 14:35, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• I have adjusted the spouse section of the infobox as requested. Storye book (talk) 16:23, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• I have added ALT2. The promoter may chose the orginal or ALT1. I don't know what is proper in this case. I am just giving options.-
  WP:WAWARD
  ) 19:33, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
  • As I noted above, ALT2 is well under the proper multi-article hook length since only the first of the bold links is counted toward the 200 max. I would strongly recommend against using initials in a hook, as in ALT1, as they are offputting; using full names is not. (Surnames only is a bit odd; we rarely use them alone in regular hooks.) BlueMoonset (talk) 23:08, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• Thank you, BlueMoonset. I have struck ALT1 following your advice. I have also adjusted ALT2 (Thomas C. Sorby → Thomas Charles Sorby) because until recently the American style of including the initial of the second given name was considered (forgive me) outlandishly American in the UK, and has only become common here this century, so even though Sorby ended up in Canada it still doesn't feel right for him. Storye book (talk) 09:38, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• Update. Just letting you know my catchup status: I believe I have responded to all requests so far, but (as mentioned above) I shall still check out the remaining 9 articles via Earwig, just to be on the safe side. Also, because the page moves/adjustments took time, I still need to check each article history to make sure that no content has been damaged since yesterday. Let me know if there is anything more that I can do, and thank you all for the big effort that you are making on this nom. Storye book (talk) 09:38, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
• I've just added character counts to ALTs 0, 1 and 2, and got 149 for all of them, using A Simple Word Counter (which is linked near top of page). BlueMoonset found 154 characters. So if you disagree with 149, please adjust as appropriate. Storye book (talk) 09:52, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• Update: I have now completed all tasks up to date. Storye book (talk) 11:33, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• WP:WAWARD
  ) 17:22, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• Thank you, TonyTheTiger – I am impressed at your speed and efficiency, in this arduous task, and grateful for all your hard work and patience. I have struck ALT0 because I agree with your choice. (though you are welcome to unstrike it if you wish). Storye book (talk) 18:04, 20 March 2023 (UTC)