Template talk:Article for deletion

Page contents not supported in other languages.
Source: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

RFC: Add Instruction Not to Move

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Proposal, as written, has failed. A blanket ban on mid-AfD moves is not going to happen. It was found that moving a page within mainspace is a perfectly possible way to improve an article while it is being nominated for deletion, with multiple examples of the usefulness of such intra-mainspace mid-AfD moves cited. On the other hand, both supporters and opponents have stated that forced mid-AfD moves to Draft or User namespaces may be too disruptive to the deletion process, but are divided on whether to prohibit pre-emptively or just revert them as they happen. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 20:17, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On the template that states that an article has been nominated for deletion, should the words "or move the article" be added after "do not remove this notice"? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:03, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

AFD states:

Feel free to improve the article, but do not remove this notice before the discussion is closed and do not blank

the page.

Should the words "or move the article" be added after "do not remove this notice"?

Answer Yes or No with a brief statement in the Survey. Discuss in the Discussion section.

Survey

You would have most of these words removed? I don't think you mean that, but if you do, it is quite silly. Blanking of the article listed at AfD is a common instinct for new editors wanting to delete the page, and the blank page is very confusing for newcomers.
"There's no reason the template needs to include information about moving the page"? You are not denying the reason, but asserting the reason does not exist. The reason is past experience that newcomers (or pretend newcomers with a COI) go to the page, click the move tab, and move the page, disruptively. They then can't be fairly sanctioned for this disruption, because nothing told them not to, and there is a tab inviting them to do it.
I think something I am learning is that RfCs invite contrarianism. The VPP discussion already provided ample justification for the simple edit required.
--SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:25, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would remove "and do not blank the page" as well, per
WP:CREEP, but that's outside the scope of this RFC. :-) Levivich 23:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
I would oppose that removal, as the note is concise and important, and is in the place where it belongs (not buried in a policy page fine text), and as a note in a template, it is a very soft rule that doesn't stop experienced editor from IAR actions, but does stop inexperience people to trying to do something that usually makes things worse. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:07, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:CREEP, note that page's title is "Wikipedia:Avoid instruction creep". Instruction creep, not rule creep. "CREEP" is not a concise version of "Avoid instruction creep", but is jargon.
Allowing moves except for namespace moves necessitates serious instruction creep.
"do not move" is far better than "do not draftify", or "do not move to another namespace", because "draftify" and "namespace" are deep jargon for a new editor.
"Move" is quite a reasonable word considering that at the top of the page is the tab labelled "move". So, if you value WP:CREEP, and oppose unilateral draftification during an AfD, the answer is it go with the simple "do not move". SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:36, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Moving the article to a different namespace should be prohibited, but something like capitalisation does not need to wait, AfC scripts be damned. AfD provides no guarantee that a particular script will support its closure. We have manual close instructions there to be used when needed. A guarantee we should have is that MOS errors can be fixed on any mainspace article at any time, that an article can be nominated for deletion while a move discussion is in place (so the move discussion may be closed mid-AfD) etc. There are edge cases where a good move may allow an editor to make
    massive quality improvement during the discussion, but could also be scrutinised as attempting to bypass AfD discussion over intended article scope. But in general, I see no reason to allow namespace moves (IAR works for genuinely rare exceptions) and some reasons to allow moves within mainspace. — Bilorv (talk) 22:46, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    I had not thought of closing script errors, just deletion sorting, and the several AfD tables. If the title fix is important enough to not wait, then it is important enough that links to the AfD are correct. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:10, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Can you show me what breaks, SmokeyJoe? As I see it, if you infer the article title based on the AFD subtitle then you'll get a redirect which is good enough; but if you infer the AFD page from the article title then you might get a redlink. But in any case, these technical questions should be secondary to the matter of proper flow of editor actions, which is what my comment is about. — Bilorv (talk) 23:54, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi User:Bilorv. This is a difficult thing to "show", as it is discussion of hypothetical problems that derive from a hypothetical good reason to move a page despite an ongoing AfD. A double hypothetical.
    Suppose, after the AfD is listed, someone moves a page from a BLP-violating title to a BLP compliant title. But they don't fix the AfD page title. On arriving at the the AfD page, it's big title remains in BLP-violation, and from then on, the discussion is poisoned. At the AfD page, eg Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2022 June 1, there is a Contents tale that lists *only* the original AfD title. Many of use look at that Contents title to choose what to engage in, and a BLP-violating item will draw attention, creating biased participation, and astonishment when navigating to the article to find it doesn't have the BLP-violating title that attracted the participation. In term of scripts, I was thinking of tables such as User:Cyberbot I/Current AfD's. There especially editors navigate to discussions based only on the title. I don't how the script/bot works, but I fear that it will fail to notice that the BLP-violating article title has been changed, thus continuing the BLP-violation, and astonishing editors who navigate to the AfD based on the old title, and likely producing biased participation in the discussion.
    If the template tells people to not move the page, and if admins and pagemovers are expected to know the extended rule (if the page must be moved promptly, then fix the AfD to match), then the few hypothetical cases won't spawn further hypothetical problem.
    My concern is not driven by scripts not being updated to account for problems, but with AfD participants having been misled about the title of the page, because AfD links are not updated by the page move.
    Also, if the deletion reason cited the BLP-violation that was present in the title, and that was fixed by a rename, the surely the nomination needs rewriting, and likely the original nominator failed WP:BEFORE.
    I think it is fair to challenge to proponents of the first hypothetical. Can someone point to an AfD that experienced a bold page move during the AfD, where the page move was justified to happen promptly, and was non-contentious, and it was a good AfD after the page move? SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:25, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the explanation, SmokeyJoe. I think I see the point. Your challenge is asking for quite a specific case of move during an AfD, but I give a couple of other cases: MOS issues and move discussions that predate the AfD. Does it need to be that the move must happen immediately for it to be justified? If you notice a problem, you should be able to fix it, rather than having to keep track that you can only fix it in 6 days' time (and then 13 days and 20 days when it gets relisted twice).
    In cases where the move is so major as to cause the AFD to be misleading, I can think of a couple of possibilities. Maybe this is an attempt at a supervote and should be looked upon the same way you would see the redirection of an article while an AFD is in progress. Or maybe it's a case like a BLP violation that must be fixed immediately, and the AFD could close with "procedural keep" and participants could be pinged to a new AFD to restate or revise their comments accordingly. — Bilorv (talk) 19:14, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. There could be multiple ways to fix the wrong-titled AfD, but my guess is that to close it, renominate, and ping the prior participants is a very good way. Alternatively, the admin-qualified closer might judge that the deletion reason no longer applies, a subjective case-by-case decision, not suitable for an INVOLVED editor. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:02, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Also logs. It is very frustrating when the deletion log mismatches the AfD title. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:12, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Support
    WP:SOCKSTRIKE 192.76.8.78 (talk) 19:18, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Oppose. There are occasions when it makes sense, and I would rather there not be a rule outright prohibiting it. Compassionate727 (T·C) 12:56, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support.
    WP:SOCKSTRIKE 192.76.8.78 (talk) 19:18, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Oppose. I will not comment about moving to draft space, as my opinion is that draft space is a novel invention by busybodies that we should simply do away with rather than create more and more rules about. I also think that supporting this idea because of closing scripts is completely arse-about-face. Scripts should support policy, rather than vice versa. The case that I see most often is of an obvious mistake, such as an uncapitalised proper name. It would be nice if deletion nominators would perform such moves first, before starting deletion discussions, but they often don't, and why should someone who has no intention of following a discussion be forced to wait until it is closed before performing an obvious, uncontroversial, action that gets rid of an eyesore?
    Phil Bridger (talk) 15:44, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    I just re-read that and see that it could be interpreted as my calling for the elimination of busybodies. I make no comment about whether that is actually my opinion, because it is irrelevant here, but I was actually saying that draft space should be done away with. It is far more trouble that its occasional worth.
    Phil Bridger (talk) 08:50, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Support: Only for pages discuted for deletion. Krantler (talk) 17:38, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose because there is no other instance where improvements to an article under AfD are forbidden, and because, occasionally, there might even be
    WP:NOTBURO RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:42, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Oppose. There can be good reasons to move an article during an AfD, for instance if there's an obvious typo. XFDCloser is generally capable of handling these cases without incident: it gives a message saying "Actions will be applied to this redirect's target page. To use the nominated page instead, undo the redirection before continuing." There's thus no real reason to prohibit uncontroversial moves during AfD. Draftifications during AfD are more problematic, but the correct response is simply to move the page back to mainspace, which anyone can do per
    WP:DRAFTOBJECT. Adding additional verbiage to the template seems unlikely to be helpful: newer editors are unlikely to see/understand it (due to banner blindness or other reasons), and more experienced users likely don't need the reminder in the first place. This does seem like a solution in search of a problem, and even if there is a problem this solution is unlikely to solve it. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 23:34, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Oppose per WP:CREEP. Bad faith moves will be reverted. Good faith moves are generally fine. Good faith but clueless moves can also be reverted. I do agree that draftification as a backdoor to deletion is problematic (especially if the discussion is trending keep), but that's not what this proposal is addressing. SnowFire (talk) 00:19, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Seems to be a rational move. There is no good reason to move an article during AfD, particularly since at most lasts two or three in long discussion, perhaps longer occasional, but I dont see why it would during the Afd. scope_creepTalk 09:56, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Scope creep: Suppose there's a fresh article on a breaking news event. An editor nominates the article for AFD quickly, citing NOTNEWS. During the burst of interest in the first few days - when viewership is at its highest- it turns out that the initial title picked is misleading / inaccurate / inconsistent / already outdated / whatever. Additionally, the discussion is trending toward "keep." Would this not qualify as a "good reason to move an article during an AFD"? SnowFire (talk) 16:50, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      If yes, then it is just as important to fix the AfD with the “misleading / inaccurate / inconsistent / already outdated / whatever” title. If the AfD is tending “keep”, under a misleading / inaccurate / inconsistent / already outdated / whatever title, then there is a huge reason to stop the misleading / inaccurate / inconsistent / already outdated / whatever AfD.
      As this is a big thing, to be done boldly and unilaterally, it should be strictly UNIVOLVED. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:57, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The current guidance—from
    WP:CREEP. For what it's worth, the AfD template used to include the message For more information, particularly on merging or moving the article during the discussion, read the guide to deletion, but the wording about moving the article was removed in March 2021, see [2]. I would not be opposed to reinstating that longstanding text to the template (which was removed boldly). Mz7 (talk) 01:09, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Good find, thank you. Strong support for reverting User:Kusma's edit, to reinstate that longstanding text to the template. It removed something needed, and the fine text at Wikipedia:Guide to deletion#You may edit the article during the discussion can be edited to mention draftification, and INVOLVED. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:49, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Like most templates and guidelines, the instructions are so long that nobody reads them. I would rather suggest to simplify further in the hope that people might read shorter instructions. —Kusma (talk) 08:23, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Instructions that are too long are skipped by too many, yes, but does this apply specifically to the template? SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:00, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I think I removed the text because I didn't find the instructions at the target page particularly helpful. If it gets re-added, I won't complain much, but I would suggest to try to update and simplify the wording at Wikipedia:Guide to deletion. Another idea would be to see whether we could have a conditional warning at MediaWiki:Movepagetext in case the article is at AfD to give specific instructions to movers. —Kusma (talk) 09:34, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    If adding specific instructions to interface's move message is possible as you've proposed, I'm certainly on board with your idea. CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {CX}) 08:52, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, the article should be moved if that is necessary. It is not super common, but BLP or NPOV issues are more important than AfD guidelines. —Kusma (talk) 08:23, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Kusma, but if the page move is necessary for BLP of NPOV reasons, why are you supporting the continuation of an AfD under the old AfD title with the BLP or NPOV issues? SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:58, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @SmokeyJoe: Am I? If the AfD title has serious BLP issues (like, "Kusma is a pedo"), this should be amended by moving the AfD page and updating all the links, not by closing it and leaving the BLP issue title in the logs. —Kusma (talk) 09:26, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    That’s the point. “Don’t move without closing the AfD” solves this, necessarily, and concisely. I guess you’d generalise to “Don’t move without fixing the same problem with the AfD”. But this is headed down the path of CREEP. I’m yet to see a page that MUST be moved in the week of the AfD. I would SLAP the nominator for not doing the necessary move and instead make it worse by advertising it through the AfD processes, which place notifications, including the violating title phrase in edit histories. Kusmo is a pedo should be emailed to oversighters. I maintain that moving during the AfD is always disruptive enough to unjustify the bold page move. An experienced editor should shut down the mess, and that editor is already limited by WP:UNINVOLVED, it doesn’t need repeating. Very concise.
    I don’t think any BLP or NPOV title violating article that gets sent to AfD doesn’t need deleting. I think that an inexperienced nonadmin attempting to rush fix by pagemove will always make things worse. There’s no downside to the instruction “don’t move without closing the AfD”, because it only limits inexperienced and INVOLVED editors. SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:09, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The standard thing is a page titled "Jane doe" or "About jane doe" or "Jane doe biography", Ideally, these should be moved to "Jane Doe" before the AFD, but the page title should always be fixed as soon as possible, even if that is during the AFD. Thanks to redirects, the disruption caused by such a move is minimal. We don't wait for a week to fix a typo out of bureaucracy. —Kusma (talk) 10:16, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Comparatively, the disruption caused by closing and reopening an AfD is larger (when should the new AfD be closed?), and you either need to copy over the old comments or get people to comment again, while AfD generally has not enough participation already. —Kusma (talk) 10:18, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Generally moving pages tagged for AfD is bad form as it causes confusion, but I don't believe there should be a policy against doing so. Articles under a deletion discussion can be improved to the point where the reason for deletion is no longer valid (i.e. the concerns have been addressed), and page moves can help with improving the article. AfD'd articles rticles can find their place with renames, just like any other article. So I don't believe adding a clause to prevent renaming pages during AfDs is justified. SWinxy (talk) 15:57, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • . Oppose it shouldn't be done just to fix trivial errors, but if the articles is misleadingly or obscurely titled, it can be so much improved by a move as to affect the decision. AfD is supposed to improve articles when possible. DGG ( talk ) 20:01, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Mostly just per
    WP:CREEP and the lack of a strong case to implement a change. FOARP (talk) 11:16, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Oppose - I don't think that moving articles during deletion debates is a big problem. I don't see how another rule that might plausibly stop a beneficial move from being made is the right way to proceed. Carrite (talk) 06:45, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose instruction creep. If it's a non-controversial move (clearly the wrong title, whatever), then move it. If it's a controversial move, then it should be discussed first anyway. The fact that an AFD exists changes nothing. I don't see it as gaming the system - it's not like the page is going to go missing. --B (talk) 15:49, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - moving an article proposed for deletion can cause a lot of confusion as people would think the original article was a redirect. weeklyd3 (message me | my contributions) 03:27, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - IAR. Schierbecker (talk) 08:52, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, yes, moves are generally a bad idea, but the rule is too prescriptive. It's better to let humans decide, case-by-case. Even draftification by the creator can be perfectly reasonable (for example where an inexperienced editor has unilaterally moved a draft that they didn't write into main-space and its creator knows it is only half-written and not up to scratch). Yes, it's confusing if things move around, but if people can't be bothered to track where an article's gone, I don't feel their input at AfC is particularly likely to be well-informed and well-researched. In good AfC's, major changes to the target, including moves, will be documented by those in the discussion. If people mess around at AfC and game the system, we have a variety of remedies ranging from a trouts of various sizes through to ANI. Elemimele (talk) 14:46, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per those who pointed out that sometimes a page move is an obvious improvement, and could lead to the addition of better sources. At the same time, I believe that bad page moves should never be allowed, whether it happens during the AfD discussion or even right before it. And by a bad page move, I mean even one that no longer adequately describes the article content, as happened at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shipping to Israel. In that case, even though the article admittedly would never have been kept as it was, still the point is that in my opinion, the late title change by the nom skewed the responses to lead to an easy 'delete', when the previous title had a much better chance of winding up as a merge or redirect. Therefore, since I see this proposal as having more to do with timing and less to do with substance, I cannot lend my support to it. Havradim leaf a message 20:10, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Discussion

    Explanation by Proposer: Sometimes an editor attempts to interrupt an AFD by moving the article. The most common form is to attempt to move the article unilaterally to draft space. The deletion procedures are largely silent on whether this is permitted. Since only articles are subject to AFD, a move out of article space either (a) turns off the AFD, or (b) is disruptive and should not be permitted. There has been discussion at

    Village Pump
    and the rough consensus is that moving an article while an AFD is in process should not be permitted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Moving_Article_to_Draft_Space_During_AFD Any move of an article while the AFD is in progress, whether to draft space or another title, interferes with the scripts. If a move is appropriate, it can be discussed during the AFD, and the move (whether to draft space or another title) completed by the closer when the AFD is closed. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:03, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Making the text about removing the tag bold

    I am proposing to change the weight of the text inside the template to the following, to make these templates consistent with the speedy deletion templates. Personally I find this text does not stand out to me and I fail to read it, which no doubt also happens to other editors, and the template erroniously removed from articles as a result.

    "Feel free to improve the article, but do not remove this notice before the discussion is closed and do not blank the page. For more information, read the guide to deletion."

    Your thoughts and consensus on this would be appreciated. Osarius 10:57, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    I think that would be a good idea. I certainly don't see why not. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 16:29, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Oppose. To maintain a clear
    reader-centric. Editors should not be making edits to pages with a giant red notice without reading that notice, and if they are anyways, then we should handle it through an editnotice. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 20:17, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
     Note: Closed edit request for now since this is a proposal for a change rather than a request at this time. Terasail[✉️] 22:38, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Wording changes

    There is a discussion at

    WP:VPI#{{Article for deletion}} refinement about the recent changes to the template message. Sojourner in the earth (talk) 15:45, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Template-protected edit request on 1 February 2024

    Please append:

    {{Redirect category shell|
    {{R from template shortcut}}
    }}
    

    to

    QueenofHearts 23:54, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply
    ]

     Completed.
    ed. put'er there 00:13, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Fully protected edit request on 2 February 2024

    A protected redirect, Template:Afd, needs

    redirect category
    (rcat) templates added. Please modify it as follows:

    • from this:
    #REDIRECT [[Template:Article for deletion]]
    
    • to this:
    #REDIRECT [[Template:Article for deletion]]
    
    {{Redirect category shell|
    {{R from move}}
    {{R from template shortcut}}
    }}
    
    • WHEN YOU COPY & PASTE, PLEASE LEAVE THE SKIPPED LINE BLANK FOR READABILITY.

    The {{

    ed. put'er there 00:40, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply
    ]

     Done Additionally, I have reduced the permissions to template editor level. It remained fully protected as the move was done before the template editor group was created and no one went back to lower the protection level when the group was created. – robertsky (talk) 01:38, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you very much, editor
    ed. put'er there 01:49, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply
    ]