User talk:Andy Dingley/Archive 4

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Hi, a, I had just took an interest, read that article and have now nominated it for a

Thanks for that - I wasn't aware of

Eyston articles too? Andy Dingley (talk

) 16:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry that it took a while to reply, but I have. Willirennen (talk) 17:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

On 8 April, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article White Triplex, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page .

--Daniel Case (talk) 04:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello. Sorry to bother you, but your in-progress article on

I think I'll leave that for someone else to worry about. I've only got just about enough material for one reasonable page on the series of them, not for competent pages on each (I've almost nothing on III). If someone wants to come along later and split it, that's fine by me, but as an interim stage I'd intended to just complete one decent article first. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Andy. I found your name at Category:Wikipedians who understand ParserFunctions. In WikiProject California template, if imageneeded=yes and in=Los Angeles county, California, then the page will be categorized in Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in Los Angeles county, California. However, if imageneeded=yes and in=, in2=, and in3= are not specified, then the page should be categorized in Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in California. How do I revise the following code from Template:WikiProject California to make this happen?:

|-
{{#if:{{{imageneeded|}}} 
  | {{#ifeq:{{lc:{{{imageneeded|}}}}}|yes
    |{{!}} valign="top" {{!}} [[Image:Camera-photo.svg | {{#ifeq:{{{small|}}}|yes|30|40 }}px | center]]
    {{!}} It is requested that a '''photograph''' or '''photographs''' be [[Wikipedia:Uploading images|included]] 
    in this article to [[Wikipedia:Article development|improve its quality]]. 

  {{#ifeq:{{lc:{{{small|}}}}}|yes|
    {{#if:{{{Imagedetails|}}}
      |:{{{imagedetails|}}}}} 
      |{{#if:{{{imagedetails|}}}
        | An editor suggests the following:<br> :'''{{{imagedetails|}}}''' 
      }} 
    }} 

<includeonly>
}} {{#if:{{{#default}}}|
  [[Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in California | {{PAGENAME}}]]
}} {{#if:{{{in|}}}|
  [[Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in {{{in}}} | {{PAGENAME}} ]]
}} 
{{#if:{{{in2|}}}
  |[[Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in {{{in2}}} | {{PAGENAME}}]]
}} 
{{#if:{{{in3|}}}
  |[[Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in {{{in3}}} | {{PAGENAME}}]]
</includeonly>
}}
}}

-- GregManninLB (talk) 16:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, haven't got time to look at that right now. As a guess (without testing), you're looking for the not(or(in,in2,in3)) operation. Easiest way to get that is to use the way that {{#if: evaluates the expression - basically as either an empty or non-empty string. So try some variant of this:

{{#if:{{{in|}}}{{{in2|}}}{{{in3|}}}| 

  {{#if:{{{in|}}}|
    [[Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in {{{in}}} | {{PAGENAME}} ]]
  }} 
  {{#if:{{{in2|}}}|
    [[Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in {{{in2}}} | {{PAGENAME}}]]
  }} 
  {{#if:{{{in3|}}}|
    [[Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in {{{in3}}} | {{PAGENAME}}]]
  }}

  |

  [[Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in California | {{PAGENAME}}]]
}} 

Hope that helps. If I've misunderstood your needs, or if it doesn't, then please comment. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Works like a charm. Thanks for the code. Is there a page I can read up on how to write such code myself? GregManninLB (talk) 14:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I wish there was some good documentation on this! I use my own list of several scabby little links to MediaWiki etc. Even then I'm always jumping between tabs to try and remember just which page something was on. Much of the problem is in remembering whether something is a "magic word", or a parser function, or just a template - what's one little # or a : between friends?. Then there's the problem of extensions and whether your particular wiki has that extension installed.

• http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words
• http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Parser_functions
• http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ParserFunctions
• http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix
• http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DynamicPageList

I don't really use (as an editor) Wikipedia much, mostly I do work on an intranet-hosted MediaWiki (2,500 article, 8,000 total page) with LOTS of dynamic stuff based on complex categorization and automatic creation of overview or reporting pages. I couldn't do it without DPL, but that's one right evil pig of a thing to wrangle. As it happens, I'm writing a book on this stuff - deploying wikis inside businesses.
Andy Dingley (talk) 18:38, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I'm looking at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide/Technical notes right now, trying to understand the code. I got to "{| class="messagebox" and my first question is why the "{" and then why is "|" needed. If you can point me to documentation on the "class=" item, that would be most appreciated. There should be an understanding banner code for dummmies page. I'll take a look through the links you provided. Thanks again. GregManninLB (talk) 14:24, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

{| class="messagebox 

is a combination of two things, neither of them specifically Parser Functions.

{| is wikitable markup for the beginning of a table.

class="messagebox ... " is HTML markup, passed straight through the wiki and onto the webpage. It's used to attach a CSS rule, by means of a selector in the skinning.css that will have .messagebox in the selector (any CSS ref. should explain this). Note the leading "."

Couple of other things to note:

{| is wikitable markup, but it can't be used in combination with Parser Functions, as the PF parser sees the "|" character as being related to the PFs and will swallow it up before it gets to generate a table. If you want to generate table from within PFs (not obvious, so ask for advice - a good article on this would be worth writing) then you need to replace "|" with "{{!}}". This is a simple template call, to a template called {{!}}. Most wikis will have this installed, a template that simply returns a "|". Equally {{!!}} that returns "||". These templates are also useful for passing table markup into template parameters. See my new commons:Image:Locomotive boiler sectioned.jpg for an example.

class="messagebox" is a simple example, with one class name in the class attribute. HTML / CSS also allows multiple classes to be specified together, with class="messagebox woof bark donkey" This HTML element will have the CSS rules for any of the classes "messagebox", "woof", "bark" 'or "donkey" applied to it.

Andy Dingley (talk) 22:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I've got lots to learn. It appears that class="messagebox" calls the .messagebox in template:MediaWiki:Common.css to give specific/common characteristics to Messagebox templates. There is a table of classes here. I do remember reading about the pipe "|" and the need to use an exclaimation point "!" for the pipe in some cases. I need to start with the basics of HTML markup and wikitable markup and work my way up from there. Thanks. : ) GregManninLB (talk) 02:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I'm delighted to see you support keeping this article I have just created. It is intended as the first of individual entries on all 400+ known Roman auxiliary regiments to link to the main article, List of Roman auxiliary regiments. To be honest, as someone unfamiliar with the editing norms of Wiki, I cannot understand why this can even remotely be regarded as unsuitable for inclusion. The unit in question is discussed in a number of reputable academic publications, so why is it "non-notable"? Perhaps you can explain this term more clearly for me? Regards EraNavigator (talk) 21:51, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid I cannot explain this term any more clearly...

...at least not in a way that isn't going to get me thrown into the editorial sin-bin along with User:Sarah777 and a bunch of other editors who value adding new content over measuring reaction times to nit-pick about topics they have no other interest in or connection with. But take a look at Notching. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I've restored the article, removed the commercial link and the speedy template. The commercial link was not at all useful in describing notching. It offered commercial services related to notching. Beyond a glossary, there didn't seem any reason to link to it.

Perhaps I made a mistake in agreeing with the Speedy tag (although I decline to say mea culpa.) However, if the text isn't clarified and better focused, I expect it may be nominated again, either for SD or AfD. I did read the article before deleting it and found it almost incomprehensible from a layman's perspective. It uses jargon and words defined specifically from the perspective of metal/materials processing. In other words, what seem to be perfectly clear words are only understandable if one is familiar with the fabrication and metalworking usage of the terms. I suspect this is what the SD nom meant by "lacking context".

I'm putting the article on my watchlist and I'll try to keep an eye on it. Cheers, Pigman☿ 23:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Ignoring NPA issues, Andy, I will instead attempt to explain that this seemed to me to be an example of

For NPA, then I'm sorry and I must assume that you act in Good Faith, but I don't have to believe that you exercise good judgement. There are two editors involved in attacking this article (and its newbie creator, who we're all equally required to assume acted in equal good faith) - both of you have a talk page filled with queries and complaints noting pages where you appear to have acted over-hastily to delete pages. We're supposed to be building things here, not seeing who's fastest to demolish them. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Your points are good, and I'm more than willing to AGF on your part as well. I don't believe I'm "attacking" anybody or anything; I prefer to think of it as quality control. I am convinced the article will still end up deleted under an AfD. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

That's a prejudicial assumption of future AfD, in a subject area that I don't believe you're familiar with. Have you read it today? I'm not familiar enough with the subject myself to write more than a terse intro, unprepared, unreferenced and at dead of night (Just what is the urgency here anyway?) but I hope that it's starting to give at least the hint of context.

I should have spent last night Having A Life. If I'm to spend it on WikiLife instead, I had a couple of far more useful articles that I could have been working on. This business of chasing administrivia in circles as if it's time-critical is wasteful to everyone. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I undid an

It's not a question of good faith, it's a question being right. .303 isn't a dimension, it's a calibre - these things are never really convertable between dimensions like this, no matter how many wikibots try to do it automatically,. Besides which, I don't know of any reference (Wikipedia or citeable) that describes .303 British as 7.7mm, or as equivalent to Japanese 7.7mm, and even the Wikipedia claim that Japanese Naval 7.7mm is derived from .303 British is stretching things a bit. For that matter, most of the WW2 RAF aircraft pages claim that they were fitted with M1919 Brownings, which is way off the beam. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

On 27 April, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article High Speed Flight RAF, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page .

--Gatoclass (talk) 11:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi again Andy. If an article class is assigned FA, GA, B, Start, Stub, or no assessment, I want the WikiProject California template sending the article to Category:WikiProject California articles. If an article class is Category, template, or some other non-article, then I do not want WikiProject California template sending the article to Category:WikiProject California articles. Will the following code do this:

<includeonly>
{{#if: {{{FA|Fa|fa|}}} {{{FL|Fl|fl|}}}{{{A|a|}}} {{{GA|Ga|ga|}}} {{{B|b|}}} 
  {{{Start|start|}}} {{{Stub|stub|}}} {{{List|list|}}} {{{|}}} 
|
[[Category:WikiProject California articles|{{PAGENAME}}]]
}}
</includeonly>

GregManninLB (talk) 21:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

No. Use the {{#switch: form that's in the template at the moment.

Wiki syntax is difficult. In particular because the "|" character is re-used for different purposes. Unless your example is doing something subtle I've no experience of, it's just not valid syntax, or anything close to it. The FA|Fa|fa construct inside a switch (fall-through of matches) doesn't have any real connection to the "default value for parameters" structure you seem to be confusing it with here. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I changed the syntax to

<includeonly>{{#if:{{{FA|}}}{{{Fa|}}}{{{fa|}}}{{{FL|}}}{{{Fl|}}}{{{fl|}}}{{{A|}}}{{{a|}}
{{{GA|}}}{{{Ga|}}}{{{ga|}}}{{{B|}}}{{{b|}}}{{{Start|}}}{{{start|}}}{{{Stub|}}}{{{stub|}}}{{{List|}}}
{{{list|}}}{{{|}}}|[[Category:WikiProject California articles|{{PAGENAME}}]]}}</includeonly>

. This was based on the above comment. Will this work? Thanks. GregManninLB (talk) 02:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Use the {{#switch: You need to test values of a single parameter here, not multiple parameters.

I'd also lose the duplicated multi-case stuff. It's easier to force the input to a known case with {{lc:, then just test once. Try this:

{{#if: {{{class|}}} |
  {{#switch: {{lc: {{{class|}}} }}

    |foo= [[category:Foo!]]

    |fa
    |ga      <!-- fall-throughs Note the lack of "=" -->
    |b  
    |start 
    |stub = [[category:stubby stuff]]

    |#default= <!-- Don't do anything -->
  }}
| 
<!-- No value given at all --> [[category:stubby stuff]] 
}}

{{#switch: syntax is over here http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ParserFunctions#.23switch:
Andy Dingley (talk) 15:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again Andy. I'm trying to create a California WikiProject template. If you have the time, would you please look over the template and make it more efficent. My test page for the template is here. Thanks so much! GregManninLB (talk) 19:56, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I was actually thinking about this over lunch instead of reading my new

Given that I disagree with the assumption that all new editors read all of the "terms and conditions" before they make a keystroke in terms of editing, it would be more pragmatic to make comments on article discussion or user talk pages to explain how an article can be improved, and the potential consequences of leaving the article to stagnate. After all we all signed up to Wikipedia to be part of an editing community, not to read noticeboards. ColourSarge (talk) 19:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Glad to have a second voice. Been banging my head on a brick wall. Very frustrating.--Cube lurker (talk) 23:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Logs are just hard to read. The number of times I've been caught myself, when I've reacted to a single last change and not read the whole story from over a few changes back. We just all need to be very careful before throwing accusations around, to see that they're really deserved. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

BTW I never thanked you for your intervention(s) recently; (and just now! ). I was having a bad week! So thank you, twice! Xyl 54 (talk) 14:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

That's classy...but not a lost cause. You only need about 5 million other spare parts off eBay and voila, your own Cold War bomber.

Dunno if you'll fit it in your back garden though ;)

Compromise on last / only / current - how about "single" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.66.54.83 (talk) 14:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

4 million, nine-hundred and ninety-nine thousand and a few hundred 8-) Andy Dingley (talk) 16:05, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Andy, Thanks... I made sure I was there for the testing of the Napier-Railton. Every time I've visited the museum before it's been tucked away in the Campbell shed. I had to use the opportunity to get some pics! —Preceding

Personally I'm convinced (they're a known name amongst Welsh ceramicists) and the Aber bio is a good independent source to support this. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Dingley:

I am new to editing Wikipedia and I thought I put the correct edit for the above book, I realize that I forgot the

scinamonScinamon (talk) 21:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

No problem. Yes, he sure was busy. A three day block is enough though. The majority of ip's are not static, and we don't want to block non-vandalism ip edits. If he starts again on the same ip he will get longer blocks. Garion96 (talk) 19:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no need to introduce templates for citations and references when the sources are properly cited. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 20:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC).

That's because your understanding of the benefits of templates is clearly lacking. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

From

Wikipedia:Cite_your_sources#Citation_templates "The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Templates may be used or removed at the discretion of individual editors, subject to agreement with other editors on the article. Because templates can be contentious, editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus." Both the original citation style and the cite|book template are permissable ways of citing references. Please take this to the talk page and try to establish consensus before edit warring - and please stay Civil.Nigel Ish (talk

) 21:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

As an editor he is of course free to edit pages however he sees fit. Posting patronising messages to other's talk pages, claiming that the use of templates was a recent edit (any change there was over a month ago - the only "recent" edit was to fix a broken cat name), or alleging that the templates had been used incorrectly is quite another thing. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks SGGH ^speak! 06:33, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd just like to thank you for answering a long-burning question of mine as to why it was called "K7" (where's K5 and 6? I used to think) and what the "infinity" symbol on the badge stands for. Keep up the good work! Emoscopes ^Talk 13:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that was pretty much my reaction when I came across the relevant page in "The Bluebird Years". Andy Dingley (talk) 18:46, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the help with

Holiday last week, including a delightful walk through the estate. I'll probably upload some photos soon. Do you know the story of when the house itself was demolished? I'm assuming that it was one of those houses blown up to avoid post-1948 death duties, but I'm just guessing here. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

To such a (previously) grand place you went. I hope to make a visit soon in search of family history. I added Llanfihangel y Creuddyn which contains a great deal of information about area and estate. Several of my family were baptised at St. Michael (Hafod), Eglwys Newydd located on the estate. The FAQ Web page for the estate lists the following:

By the 1940s the house was in a poor state of repair. It was owned by a succession of timber merchants before coming into the hands of an asset-striping company. At an auction in 1949 all fixtures and fittings were sold off, including windows, stairs, and floors. Not surprisingly, when the Forestry Commission took over in 1950, they could not find a use or a buyer for the surviving wreck. Piecemeal demolition of the Victorian wing began, and eventually the remainder was dynamited in 1958. The 1882 stables were retained.

Do you have any pictures of St. Michael church? I have been searching for such an image. Thanks for uploading the image to the page, and hope to see more!

(T)/_(C)

05:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Sadly I didn't photograph the church. It's alongside the road into the estate and it appeared to be a well-preserved, albeit locally unremarkable, church with a large and well-maintained churchyard around it.

You might also like to look at

• http://quercus.livejournal.com/215955.html
• http://codesmiths.com/dingbat/lj/200806_Wales/

I've some other photos too, but they're on two other cameras and my card reader is playing up. These so far are just off my backup phone.

If you're going to visit, then it sounds like a great excuse to stay in Hawthorn Cottage, or else the Hafod Hotel at Devil's Bridge (built as a hunting lodge for the estate) Andy Dingley (talk) 08:55, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully you will upload more, or a great many of your wonderful photos of Hafod to the Commons. Would make a great addition to the article. I especially like the picture of the trees-great composition. I love the image of the pub. Looks so much like

(T)/_(C)

04:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate the comment you posted concerning the subject in the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Joseph_Cormier. I looked at your beautiful images and I can understand your POV is that of a photographer/artist. I thought The Citizen photographer had a good eye in capturing the moment. The two images were originally posted by an Administrator with the not free/fair use tag I met on a job over two years ago as I was driving three volunteers for an NDP candidate in my van for hire as they planted election signs in Canada's last general election. There are not many occasions when people are interested in hearing about my 3 runs for elective office as an Independent Candidate with no money or volunteers, but these guys were. One of them took it upon himself to research my talk and confirmed it by creating the article. You might imagine how happy and surprised I was discovering it April 19. Seeing it is about me, I have recused myself from editing it, hoping others would take over. Would you enlighten me on what FUR means, please? Perhaps you might improve on the way the article uses it as you suggest. If you read the history, what is in the article now is only about 5% of the original. The editor who wants both images deleted unilaterally removed them instantaneously on seeing them. After about a week's discussion, they were restored to the article, but he has had a change of heart. I don't understand why an editor/admin. would spent so much time obsessed about these images other than not wanting them in the historic image category. DoDaCanaDa (talk) 02:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

• Sometimes I am slow in understanding. Disregard my FUR question. Thanks. Andy, this image is also up for deletion by the same user. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2nd_Police_Warning_4_God%27s_Emissary_1.jpg. It was more interesting before it was re-sized. You could see the lines in the faces. Do you have an opinion on this? While the images do show the individual in the article, it's not about him. It's an event about us. DoDaCanaDa (talk) 14:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

LoL ;) wanted to see what would happen. I just merged it... --

And this is a good thing? 8-( Andy Dingley (talk) 13:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm kidding. The merge was proposed without anyone participating in the discussion, the reason was explained to involved Users at the deletion discussion. At any rate, perhaps now the merge will be discussed. --

Andy

I don’t know where to start with this!

I’m gobsmacked!

It’s probably the outcome I would have sought, but I don’t like the way it’s been done. It needs to be done decently and in order. Any suggestions? Xyl 54 (talk) 16:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

(Addendum) I've posted

here and here about it; who knows? Xyl 54 (talk

) 17:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking of creating a template tag and a __HIDDENCAT__ of "Articles beyond hope of redemption, don't waste your life on them". Articles like this that have been savaged by a self-appointed cabal, or those like Duck typing that are simply too inept, or anything involving Ireland, ever. Then I can just remember to walk away and not let it ruin my day, while I get on with something else. Then I'll go and sit with Sarah777 on the Naughty Chair. This isn't how it was supposed to be, but I admit it's beyond me how to solve it. 8-( Andy Dingley (talk) 18:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, that cabal probably includes me, on this occasion. But I see Direktor has, civilly, done as I requested; so if there is anything to discuss, it can be. Xyl 54 (talk) 11:23, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

PS. And yes, walking away would be good advice, if I could learn to heed it. Xyl 54 (talk) 11:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Revisited in July 2008

Hi Andy. Re: this edit, [1] with all due respect, I did not blank the page. I restored the redirect to Mare Nostrum that had been deleted by an IP address with an agenda. Your change has been undone by another editor. Many thanks for your attention. Best, AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 10:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

By "agenda" I presume you mean "Being able to distinguish gross abuse of process from consensus". That whole "deletion by merge" process stank. Attrition by a persistent cabal isn't the same as reaching consensus. 8-( Andy Dingley (talk) 11:23, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

[[2]] - [[3]] - [[4]] - [[5]] - [[6]] - [[7]] - [[8]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.28.126.85 (talk) 15:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm not getting involved. I don't like what happened here, or to see a potentially good article deleted (because that's what was done, no matter how they paint it), but I'm not quite so stupid as to waste time on a fool's errand in a field I know little of. There's enough partisan deletionism going on around articles where I have something useful to add. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:31, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

No Andy, I do not mean "Being able to distinguish gross abuse of process from consensus". I mean an IP address with an agenda, precisely as I said. The IP address (65.3.224.112) is my old friend User:Brunodam. What you describe casually as a "potentially good article" is a piece of Italian irridentist aggrandisement, seeking to portray something that in reality never existed as a historical fact. Even to the most casual observer the claims made in this article are obvious bunkum, and it is a blatant example of Wikipedia being used as a vehicle to spread propaganda. That's all. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 15:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Never existed as a historical fact? [9] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.28.126.85 (talk) 16:32, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I have a lot of sympathy for the "never existed as a historical fact" argument, but see this as no reason to delete the article. Nor do I believe that this article ever seriously intended to put forward that precise point! Is there a Mussolinist Revisionist Cabal that I wasn't aware of? It was a historical term, however overblown that claim might have been. It was even a historical British joke in-period (I have a copy of the newspaper cartoon) to ridicule past Italian claims once they'd been clearly and absolutely swept away.

We've all got an agenda. Some of us have an agenda to try and improve the average level of wikiquality, some to fight one tiny point to the death. I hope to spend more of my own limited time on the former, which still shouldn't be taken as support for positions in the second that I don't choose to spend too long arguing over. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Wise words indeed. The redirect to Mare Nostrum is not a deletion, it's a redirect, which is quite different. I'd also recommend a quick read of

Wikipedia:Content forking. No, there's no Mussolinist Revisionist Cabal, but a wearying plethora of sockpuppets, three of whom voted 'keep' on the AfD. Lastly, you are very sensible to avoid spending your limited time arguing over Wikipedia articles such as this that hardly anybody reads. See you around. AlasdairGreen27 (talk

) 17:30, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Just to weigh in here, there is no "deletion" involved here. The Italian usage of the term Mare Nostrum is mentioned at Mare Nostrum. The problem with the Italian Mare Nostrum page was that it is a very poor article mostly filled with irrelevance. How is a photo of a "Macchi C.205 Veltro of Regia Aeronautica" relevant to this political concept? How is it relevant that there was an "attack on the British base at Suda Bay, Crete by destroyers Crispi and Sella, both transporting explosive motor boats: HMS York beached and abandoned and one oil tanker sunk"? Do we need to know that "The Italian fleet also took advantage of the situation and moved onto the offensive, blocking or decimating at least three large Allied convoys bound for Malta" in order to understand what the term means? Or that "The Italian Regia Aeronautica entered the war with 3296 airplanes (1332 Bombers and 1160 "Caccia", as were called the Fighters in Italian)"?

What has happened is that the relevant portions of Italian Mare Nostrum (which frankly, there was not much of) have been moved to Mare Nostrum. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 14:29, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

This was posted to J Milburn talk toady with one subsequent post.

Good Day J! I've been accused at times of wearing my emotions on my sleeve and yesterday I showed that by changing this section header as a tangible display. I went to bed happy, pleased that after such a long discussion started by the images being removed, we, personally, had passed a threshold as it were. I still believe that, so you can imagine my surprise and disappointment to wake up and find the images deleted, not by you. When I went to bed the dispute over the image "Second police warning for God's emissary" was ended with a Keep consensus and a different tag noting this. That is gone as well which I don't understand. I had assured you the FUR tag was only a temporary measure. This dispute within Wikipedia required my immediate focus. If the article was in the top 100 list, I am confident there would have been a consensus to keep both images. This was more difficult with such a smaller number of users involved in the discussion. My optimism was restored when Kingturtle listed the article in the RFCbio list. Nothing! I have been pleading for someone to restore the information about the 1981 trip to Whitehorse, Yukon with the verification newspaper references removed from the article. Nothing! I am seriously considering abandoning Wikipedia to the neutral netherworld as not being worth my time and effort. DoDaCanaDa (talk) 03:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

• Re your comment to the editor who edited your talk. You are a courageous man indeed, not just talk. You know what is yours and how to defend it, as I am doing. I commend you with blessings. Peace DoDaCanaDa (talk) 13:07, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

• Good day Andy. I find it curious Daniel who edited your talk, even removed your comment on his talk page. If you can find the time and interest, this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ray_Joseph_Cormier has been on the RFCbio list for quite a while with no editors making any contributions. Is it possible you might take a look and see what can be taken from the history and restored to the article? Seeing it is about me, it's proper I recuse myself from editing it. Thanks. Peace DoDaCanaDa (talk) 23:56, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I wrote an article about such a person, but it got deleted long ago.

An out-of-band communication will shortly cite a public statement by an official Wikimedia Foundation PR person on such things. 8-) Andy Dingley (talk) 14:56, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

:D

talk

) 15:04, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

• Hi Andy I re-wrote the article using everyone's suggestions pretty much. I dont think there's any point in nitpicking the original article because even I think it sucks ATM and I wrote it. :s So the new piece is a new start. And I don't exactly know how to do what you suggested insofaras category syntax goes. Please help if you will. Could I also beg a para from you on Cope in context? Much thanks :o) Nymphetamine labyrinth (talk) 14:35, 20 July 2008 (UTC) Cheers

i note your comments concerning the lack of references, and i agree that it needs some. there are a number of references in books concerning Sartre and Beauvoir, i will try and dig these out, might take some time! also, i will try and find the NY Times obituary for Powell, which was surprisingly lengthy and quite flattering. also, are we permitted to include actual quotes from her works, or this a copyright infringement?

thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.136.78 (talk) 13:52, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

"quotes" from works are permitted (and for a writer's bio are very likely to be useful), where they fall under "fair-use" conditions, i.e.

WP:FAIR#Text. Any quote needs to be referenced, and in some cases that ref might be sufficient, or all that's permissible. Sentences or even short paras are generally permissible, but the problem is whether they're still enough context in isolation. Andy Dingley (talk

) 14:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I even cleaned it up a bit for him first. I do feel, still, that winning the Weston-Super-Mare Brass Band competition doesn't qualify them under

How did I damage the reference? Did I break the link or something? Please let me know what I did wrong so I can try not to repeat the error in future. Jasynnash2 (talk) 08:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

If you edit a ref, to remove the use of a template (why?!), please check that the link still works after you've edited and "fixed" it. The strategy of "break all the ref links in an article, then tag it for deletion as unreferenced" is getting a bit old and tired as a way to game the system. 8-( Andy Dingley (talk) 09:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

"The strategy of ""break all the ref links in an article, then tag it for deletion as unreferenced" is getting a bit old and tired as a way to game the system.""

Please tell me that isn't directed at me but, is a general statement about something you've seen from others. As far as I was aware the link was still there and still functioned. To intentionally break a link would be a case of vandalism and my edit history alone should show that I'm not a vandal and have never engaged in activity to intentionally disrupt the project in anyway. Jasynnash2 (talk) 10:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

You're looking to delete the article, you edit it, and then the link doesn't work. What am I supposed to think? Andy Dingley (talk) 10:55, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I've NEVER tried to get the article deleted. I know for a fact that I'm not the one that sent it to AfD (the history page will verify that). In fact the only thing I ever asked to have deleted was the inappropriate talkpage which didn't have any content on it which pertained to improving the article. Please double check your facts before making accusations. Thank you. Jasynnash2 (talk) 11:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Please accept my apologies for the mistake I made in trying to improve the article in question. I will do my best to pay more attention to detail in the future. Jasynnash2 (talk) 11:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

So are you saying that all reality show contestants are non-notable per se? It seems to me that a person's fitting the

This article wasn't "deleted" (by AfD). It wasn't even "super-deleted" (by speedy). It was actually (AFAIK), "super-super-deleted" by an admin who decided that it was not only so intolerable as to not be allowed to exist, but even if the author appealed against this with a {{hangon}}, they should be over-ruled and this unbearable article made to disappear immediately. Amins have this power. It's described under {{hangon}} and I quoted it, "Note that this request is not binding, and the page may still be deleted if the page unquestionably meets the speedy deletion criteria, or if the given explanation is unacceptable." Now if that's true, then the article was rightly deleted. Either because "the page unquestionably meets the speedy deletion criteria" or because "the given explanation (which I can't read, because it's gone now) is unacceptable." If neither of those are applicable, then it's a bad deletion.

You appear to have misunderstood my point in quoting these. As I can't now read the article, the hangon reason, nor do I know who Kelli Martin otherwise, then I don't have an opinion on whether the article ought to be deleted eventually. But I'm going to be very surprised if there was sufficient reason for it to be deleted in this way, against an author's request to {{hangon}}.
Andy Dingley (talk) 21:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment of what happened at

WP:N. I think that this is problematic for the project. Cheers, DickClarkMises (talk

) 21:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you. It was rapid, but not rapid enough. However I'd hate to see it excluded on the grounds "but the plane didn't explode". I'd rather see it linked as _strongly_relevant_, on the grounds that this is the "exception that proves the rule". Andy Dingley (talk) 22:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Just wondering if you had any justification for re-adding the link to panavista as it isn't really covered by