Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive281

Just an observation re: ANI. It seems to me that quite often the correct response to a thread there is to let it play itself out, the participants come up with their own solution or they tire themselves out and move on to something more constructive. The reports that need to be actioned quickly often are. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 22:35, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you, that is often a good strategy that can lead to a solution, in which case everything is fine. It can also lead to things completely spiralling out of control, which unfortunately also happens. I do not object to a strategy of supervising without stepping in, but no supervision at all is not a good response. My comment today arose from seeing a number of (in my view) very obvious cases being ignored. I myself commented on a POV-pushing nationalist actively using an IP-sock. The comment after mine is on a clear vandal, and after that an even clearer case of very disruptive IP. In my reading, all of these are clear cases where admins could and should step in quickly to close, as the policy violations are obvious. Instead, I found all of them completely ignored many hours after they were filed. Do note that I don't think my own report to be particularly urgent and I did not start this tread to get a close for that report. It's rather a feeling I've had for some time when looking at ANI, but also at AIV and RFPP at times. Jeppiz (talk) 22:52, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

• Half the issues that come to ANI do not need admin attention. Often they need mediation, discussing or as Ivanvector points out, just to play out. Some of the best mediators around aren't admin. The places we do have serious backlogs are places that admin don't like to do, no matter how many we have. Sometimes a thread stays open without admin intervention because it revolves around a topic that no available admin is familiar enough to dive into. More numbers don't guarantee quicker responses because most admin don't patrol ANI anyway, particularly new ones. Finally, more than once I've just gone and addressed a problem I saw on ANI and didn't post about it for various reasons. And we don't "supervise" as much as mop up or use the tools on behalf of the community once a consensus is obvious. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:58, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

• Other times, the various users of said threads contrive ways for themselves to get blocked, which is certainly another way to sort out the matter. Blackmane (talk) 02:38, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

First ten callers get to become admins. And if you're the 12th caller, you'll win two tickets to the monster truck extravaganza being held tonight at the Carson Fairgrounds. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 12:44, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Admin? I'm just here for the tickets, man.

TimothyJosephWood

12:51, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Yeah! A-N

^{Imperatrix Mundi}

12:57, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I'll just take the Renovator Extra set of hands, please Blackmane (talk) 02:45, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

• If anyone is wishing to become an administrator, they are welcome to apply at
  WP:RFA. The community would not reject qualified candidates. If a potential candidate wishes an objective review before submitting an RFA, there are a number of experienced admins willing to review a candidate's activity on the project prior to their application at RFA. Nakon
  04:03, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Whiiiich, the OP having already suggested the RfA MO is lacking fitness for purpose to a certain extent, singularly fails to address his stated concerns :)

^{Imperatrix Mundi}

04:57, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Also, largely because RFA is probably only second in nastiness to ANI. One basically has to have a squeaky clean record as well as no grudge bearers, but then the argument swings to the other side by saying that if an editor hasn't experienced or gotten involved in the dirty side of WP, where one would generally collect grudge bearer, then how would they be able to handle being an admin? Catch 22 much? Blackmane (talk) 08:15, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

^{Imperatrix Mundi}

09:04, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

• RFA is still better than it was a few years ago. Mine sucked but I got over it. In some ways, the RFA does the vetting itself. If you can't handle hell week at RFA, you probably can't handle being thrown in the middle of a heated dispute in an Arb restricted area. Sometimes, you don't choose what you thrown in, it simply gets dropped on your lap. Perfection isn't the goal at RFA, we've selected admin with blocks on the books before, and they passed unopposed. It is all about judgement and reaction under pressure. Yes, we could use more admin and you don't have to be a genius or perfect to be one (take me, for example), so if you want to run for it, just run. Or go search out candidates, vet them and nominate them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:19, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

"we've selected admin with blocks on the books before, and they passed unopposed" - Can you provide two or three examples of such RfAs, please? Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 07:13, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Berean Hunter passed unopposed with a block in his history. Secret wasn't unopposed but I'm fairly sure he had blocks from his previous account. There are others, those are just off the top of my head. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:34, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Well in that case Admins have been promoted despite being sanctioned under their previous accounts ;) It didnt work out well in the end. Personally I favour de-bundling over 'more admins'. Most people willing to do 'admin rights needed' work only want to work in a specific area. RFA basically gurantees they will get oppose votes based on 'has no experience in this area' which can scupper an otherwise worthwhile candidate. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:46, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Hunter had one block from about 8/9 years ago, and the other had to use another account for a "clean start". So unless you're squeaky clean or a sock, you've got pretty much no chance of getting through. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 12:17, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

my limited experience with ANI suggests it is a total zoo over there..I've done some things to try to look into this recently (proposed some things on TALK page there etc)...I do think a big problem is there are simply not enough admins out there to deal with things (ie theoretically competent editors)..if Wikipedia has less admins today than it had in the past than it could be in for a death spiral...with more and more articles to be maintained etc etc....68.48.241.158 (talk) 14:14, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

there are 546 total active admins?? you have GOT TO BE kidding me..this is an existential threat to Wikipedia..68.48.241.158 (talk) 15:12, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

A good 10% of them are pure chocolate fireguards who a) don't do any admin tasks or b) wouldn't know what to do if they were called upon. Someone who got made 10 years+ ago, sits on their elbows all day and doesn't get "stuck in" isn't helpful. Plus RFA is a clusterfuck that would put off the vast majority of people who may be interested in stepping up to help. I'm looking forward to when it all goes tits up myself.

WP:FORMER is worth a good look. Nearly the first of the month, so queue another half-dozen or so dormant users to get removed from the current list. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead}

18:11, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Maybe something we could consider would be some sort of "draft" process for admins? I myself get the feeling that in at least some cases some newer editors might not run for adminship because they either don't think that they would get much support in the RfA, or don't think that they would necessarily be able to do that good a job at admin functions. Specifically for cases like that, having some existing admins maybe talking somewhere about individuals they think could do the work and indicating which they would think maybe the most qualified might help encourage some newer editors to seek adminship. Maybe. John Carter (talk) 15:21, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I just looked through the history of active admins..there were closer to 1000 in 2010...have been falling off steadily since...not good68.48.241.158 (talk) 15:23, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

The active admin count is misleading for a couple of reasons, 1.A lot of 'active' admins didnt use the tools that much. 2.A huge amount of work previously done by admins is now done by bots. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:37, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

with more than 5 million articles to be maintained and all the other existing spaces involved in this maintenance..this can't possibly be enough admins..and Wikipedia can't be operating anywhere near to optimally because of this, which can lead to a death spiral of editors/admins (which is probably occurring)...I would think at least 5x more admins are needed...I mean wow..68.48.241.158 (talk) 17:05, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I think that there may be some questions about what the IP editor thinks admins can and should do, and what activities can be done by others. There are a lot of things that we do need admins to do, like blocking editors, protecting pages, etc., and it might be that there might be more help needed in those fields. But, in a lot of other areas of activity, most of what is needed to be done doesn't necessarily require the individual be an admin, although I note that there have been and still are several editors, including long-term editors, who want to make some of those activities admin-only. Also, I suppose, although I haven't checked, that there are a large number of individuals who have some "extra rights," like maybe being a template editor, which some might think are admin-only functions but aren't. If we added all those individuals to the number of active administrators, I wonder how high the total number might be. John Carter (talk) 17:12, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I see the solution as around one-half new admin recruitment and one-half aggressive expansion of the role of non-admins. I'm sure if you asked an admin from 2-3 years ago to look through my contributions, I'd be called a disruptive editor. The non-admin delete closes at TfD would be enough to draw just about any admin's ire from that period (allowed as per an RfC from around a year ago), and the closure of difficult discussions listed at ANRFC wouldn't sit well either. Non-admins can do a lot more than we tend to think we can. ~ Rob^Talk 17:43, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

This is just my impression but when I look over ANI, some disputes are very complicated and require a lot of time, going through diffs, page histories, looking at the contribution history of all of the editors and their exchanges on article, noticeboard and user talk pages and I just don't have the hours to parse through the accumulated animosity. What can also happen is that two feuding editors get in a tit-for-tat argument, counter argument on ANI that runs on for days when if they would just restrain themselves, other editors and admins could get involved and offer their assessment. But it is hard to find space when the editors are furious and exasperated with each other and can't help but argue with each other as if there is no one else in the [virtual] room.

Unless an admin who wanders by is feeling particularly energetic and bold, these disputes often get archived because whether there is misconduct or who is responsible for the misconduct is murky, at best (or both editors are responsible). I agree with Dennis that many of the complaints that editors bring to ANI are more situations for dispute resolution than admin action but the filing editor is seeking a block or topic ban, not reconciliation and compromise. It also seems like some editors file ANI complaints regularly for what are minor disputes and the more frequently I see some editors at ANI complaining about other editors, the less serious I take their complaint. But that's me. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:50, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

bottom line though: more admins paying attention would be a big improvement, right? and this would likely require simply more admins in general..68.48.241.158 (talk) 19:32, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Moved from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents § Someone is proposing a community ban

Discussion here with examples provided: [1]. Long story short, User:LightandDark2000 appears to be well versed in Wikipedia rules enough to defend himself lawyer style by insisting he acts in good faith and shouldn't be harassed or punitively blocked, but still refuses to engage users' criticism of his editing style. Criticisms include stretching ambiguous sources to support his edits, reverting sourced edits then not undoing that when corrected despite the restriction posed on us by the 1RR, and only engaging in minimal discussion whenever we try to bring up the topic. As I said in the discussion, this dispute dates back to at least June: [2].

Note this module is subject to

Community ban discussions belong at AN, not on an article talk page. It certainly does seem that this editor is tendentious. The block log is longer than my arm. Katie^talk 16:39, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

"The block log is longer than my arm" - That kind of jaded hyperbole is completely unnecessary, and in this case quite disingenuous. Just sayin'... -

^theWOLFchild

21:26, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Wouldn't CB discussions be at

WP:AN is mostly more esoteric admin notices, and isn't what "the community" rather, the subset of the community with any stomach for these discussions) pays much attention to.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

 ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:38, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

While AN is the better place for these things, it usually gets decided on ANI anyway. Everything happens on ANI. -- The Voidwalker ^Discuss 23:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Regardless as to whether or not ANI is the proper venue for discussing community bans, I have placed a hat on the discussion on the talk page, redirecting users to this thread. -- The Voidwalker ^Discuss 23:46, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

I recently requested to get a topic ban lifted on WP:ANI only to be told toward the end when it was clear it would not be lifted that I should have made the request at WP:AN. While it is clear the article talk page is not the correct place for discussion of bans, we need clearer instructions for editors on where is the correct place. DrChrissy ^(talk) 23:54, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

The problem is deeper and more persistent than the above seems to indicate. User:LightandDark2000 is a POV pusher who has been a very disruptive editor for a long time on the Syria module. His bad faith, bad source edits that broke long established consensus has turned all editors against him. You can read entire sections of complaints about him on the talk pages:

He has a habit of deleting complaint messages from his own talk page so that it would not reveal who he really is. Take a look at the history of edits of his talk page and you will discover dozens and dozens of deleted complaint messages from just the last year. Let me illustrate his general attitude by giving as an example, his latest "deletion". A user in good faith writes to him: "Your source: http://en.ypgnews.tk/2016/03/15/anti-is-forces-close-in-on-groups-raqqa-hq.html is a dead link. Please provide another source." You can verify that the link is indeed a dead link since it just leads you to the "main page" of the website (en.ypgnews.com). User:LightandDark2000 deletes the message with the edit summary: "It is not a dead link. Fix your computer." You can even see that in this same edit, he increments his "vandalism counter" ({{User:UBX/vandalized|47}}) by 1, implying that the user's message on his talk page, was vandalism!

Also there was a report about him at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive904#User:LightandDark2000 intentionally misinterpret sources for editing Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War and similar pages where he was blocked for one month. The mess he creates regularly takes time to be cleaned. He injects in the map his POV pushing and total disregard for other editors’ opinions, sources and established consensus & rules. He has done nothing but make the map wrong with his POV pushing & unresponsive behavior towards other editors. I am asking for him to be permanently banned from Module:Syrian Civil War detailed map. Tradedia^talk 17:33, 19 March 2016 (UTC) @bot: do not archive yet. 18:58, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I have noticed that almost every single feed in the links provided are run/dominated by users that hate me. I see this, as well as this entire proposal, as unfairly biased. You cannot proposal a ban, or a block, just because someone has made a number of mistakes (in

good faith. I have also noticed that the vast majority of users who commented in the recent ban proposal (including the original proposal on the Syria module talk) are the users who are biased against me, so please note this carefully. And pertaining to the Syria module talk, a user there said, "I wouldn't go so far as to ban him..." and another said that "I think that not need a ban for editor user:LightandDark2000 he sometimes made mistakes but he said that he will no longer break the rules so I think do not need to judge him so severely. Each of us can make a mistake but it is always necessary to give a chance to mend..." If we were to ban or block a user every time they made a mistake on these "hot/contested topic" areas, we would hardly have any editors left to edit articles in any of those errors. Therefore, in light of the circumstances and the people involved in this proposal, I believe that this ban proposal should be declined. LightandDark2000 (talk

) 07:38, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

I will respond to the main points of your defense paragraph:

• You say: “almost every single feed in the links provided are run/dominated by users that hate me.” I have counted a total of 16 different users on these feeds. So that’s a lot of “haters”! The relevant question is why a lot of these users “hate” you? Did it occur to you that this is because of your edits and attitude?
• You mention the important notion of assuming “good faith”. However after a while, the assumption of good faith can be completely obliterated by months and months of watching you make dishonest edit after dishonest edit.
• You invoke
  WP:PUNITIVE
  . However, you have to realize that the ban is not being requested to punish you, but rather to protect the map from your damaging edits that make it wrong and ruin its reputation, therefore spoiling the hard work of many honest editors.
• You claim that you have been “harassed” and “attacked”. However, users criticizing your edits should not be viewed as harassment or personal attacks. These users have nothing against you as a person. They have a problem with your edits. Instead of feeling like you have been victimized, you should instead ask yourself the question of why there is so much negativity around you. Opening a section discussing your bad edits and attitude is legitimate because they harm the encyclopedia, even if the venue should have been ANI instead of the module’s talk page.
• You mention that “there are a number of users (including some of those pushing for this ban) who have committed much more POV edits” than you. Other users behaving badly is not a valid excuse. If someone is breaking Wikipedia policy, then you should report them, as I have done myself this week, and this has resulted in blocks.
• Your bringing up accusations of sockpuppetry is really beside the point. Whether the IP is a sockpuppet or not is a matter to be determined at SPI. What is in focus here is your behavior and your general attitude in responding to valid questions. As your history of edits shows, you also respond the same way to users you do not accuse of sockpuppetry.
• You mention that “a user said, "I wouldn't go so far as to ban him..." However, this is the same user who subsequently opened this section here at ANI. So he must have changed his mind given your continued unresponsiveness… I think that your reaction to the latest section about you on the module’s talk page has been very disappointing to many users who feel that this is now a hopeless case. Tradedia^talk 11:50, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

I did not know that he was banned before for the same issue, which is why I did not support a ban. I still don't, I'd rather a moderator gives him a clear warning that if his behaviour persists, he'd see a topic ban or block. To be fair I was gonna bring up the vandalism counter myself, but after reading this discussion[3] of the sockpuppetry investigation I realized it had a good explanation. The rest of the deletions do not, however. I brought this to ANI because I wasn't aware of what the protocol is for someone proposing a ban in a talk page, but it was clear there was a dispute and I figured an admin would be listened to by the user, since he doesn't listen to anyone else.

User:LightandDark2000 I keep repeating this every time, the biggest issue is your unresponsiveness to discussion. All of us regular contributors regularly engage each other in thorough discussion whenever a controversy emerges, you don't. I don't want to project onto your intentions, but your extensive use of Wikipedia policy links to defend yourself shows me that you are completely aware of what type of community Wikipedia is supposed to be, and this makes the assumption of good faith really hard to maintain. It's true users lose patience and regrettably resort to frustrated outbursts, but that does not erase the original criticism that you seek to ignore.

It is very hard to defend you considering this has been ongoing for a year. If you wish to avoid being blocked, as there appear to be growing calls for that, this is the right moment to show you understand what's wrong and pledge to right it.

talk

) 13:21, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

And I must add, your claim that people are only criticizing you because they hate you personally is a sign of

talk

) 13:37, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

• Enough, I suggest that (although I will probably insert random horrible thing here just for being the one to suggest it) User:LightandDark2000 receive a indefinite ban from Module:Syrian Civil War detailed map, due to repeated irresponsible editing as described above. Happy_Attack_Dog (Throw Me a Bone) 16:32, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• Indefinite ban, for sure. BTW, he continues to misinterpret sources even today, like here, when he uses sentence "With all hilltops around the city captured" to justify changing village (not hill!), as far as 17 km from the city edge, to gov-controlled. If this isn't playing stupid (I don't know politically correct way to say this), I really don't know what is. Please stop this guy, he is really taking everyone's time and he should be dealt with like any other vandal. --Hogg 22 (talk) 12:24, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Please stop with the

good faith edits made in error. LightandDark2000 (talk

) 08:55, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

How many times a person can ignore what he is told and do it his way before it's obvious he is playing stupid? 5 times? 10? 20? I think You passed all that limits. Assuming good faith doesn't mean letting one person making idiots of 10 others indefinitely. --Hogg 22 (talk) 09:05, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately despite all appeals[4][5][6]

talk

) 23:12, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for not addressing this earlier, but I'm quite busy as a person. This is the reason for my lack of participation in many discussions (some of which I regret). I probably could have done better, and I am sorry about by lack of input in many past discussion, but I do try my best to respond to discussions involving crucial issues. I will make more of an effort to engage in future discussions, where or when my attention is required. LightandDark2000 (talk) 02:10, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

So you are too "busy as a person" to "participate in discussions", yet you find the time to make 500 edits in the last 40 days? Tradedia^talk 09:42, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

How busy does one have to be to be too busy to make less than thirteen edits a day I wonder...?

^{Imperatrix Mundi}

16:46, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

@

Talk:Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War/Archive 60#Bad Edit: Raqqa Frontline, Module talk:Iraqi insurgency detailed map/Archive 4#User:LightandDark2000 and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive904#User:LightandDark2000 intentionally misinterpret sources for editing Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War and similar pages. And this is not even mentioning all the messages on his talk page that he keeps deleting dismissively... Tradedia^talk

09:13, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Is the ban being proposed a ban from the site, or a topic ban? --

HALP!: I dropped the bass?

) 18:51, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

@

Rubbish computer: What is being proposed is a ban from Module:Syrian Civil War detailed map. Tradedia^talk

03:43, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

• It has been almost a month since anyone has taken any interest in this. I highly doubt that any action will be taken, so it's probably
  time to let this die off. -- The Voidwalker ^Discuss
  00:04, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

• Templestaykorea (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Jeondeungsa (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

I have been editing a bit in the "Korean Buddhist temples" area lately, and just noticed the piping hot mess at Jeondeungsa, but of more concern at the moment is the fact that its creator was blocked based on their username and their appeal was rejected even after they said they would change their username. They appealed and said they would change their username, several days later the blocking admin posted a list of further "questions", and then several days later still the unblock request was rejected based on the questions not having been answered. The only part of the original block rationale that was not addressed in the appeal was the (dubious) claim that the account "has been used only for advertising or promotion".

At least one of the questions had nothing to do with the initial block rationale, and appears to have been meant for another user, as the exact same questions were posted simultaneously on the talk pages of four unrelated accounts. If the pages the user had created had not met GNG, I would have thought some of them would have been deleted in the intervening six months. But even if these questions were relevant, it doesn't seem fair that a blocking admin an expand on their block rationale close to a week after the block has been appealed, and then another admin can reject the appeal based on its not having addressed the new, expanded rationale.

Both

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:07, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Have you discussed this issue with the two admins before starting this thread? It's better to handle matters like this directly with the relevant admins and only seek broader input if needed. Nick-D (talk) 02:36, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

No... I didn't want them to think this was about them. I doubt they remember this, so their continued "involvement" is questionable, and I only notified them as a formality. I don't want this to sound critical of them, and it's difficult to say "are you sure you made the right call here?" (as well as all the stuff about adding to a block rationale after the block has already been appealed) to their faces without sounding critical. I just think an admin should review the block, and I can't post an unblock request for the user. I get that I might have kind of shot myself in the foot on the "not seeming critical" thing because of how often AN is confused for ANI and so this might look like "these two should be desysopped for abusing admin tools" by virtue of my posting it here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:48, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

As I understand it, the blocking admin remains the primary contact for the block as long as they remain active on Wikipedia. I've been contacted about blocks I implemented years after they came into effect. I'd suggest closing this thread and discussing the matter with Diannaa in the first instance. Given the user name and their edits, this block looks reasonable to me. Nick-D (talk) 02:55, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Concur with Nick-D - good block. The user inserted URLs into these articles with the domain name templestay.com, and I would have blocked them too. The blocking admin is always your first contact if you have a problem, and that goes for protection and deletion as well. Coming here with your concerns first does the exact opposite of what you claim you were trying to avoid, because you brought it here to this big noticeboard with all these eyes instead of quietly posting to the admin's talk page. All you have to say is something like, "I saw this block you made – could you tell me about it? I think it might be excessive." Editors come to me all the time with stuff like that and I promise you we don't get offended or upset with good-faith inquiries. :-) Katie^talk 15:23, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Those are the standard questions we give to accounts that are promotional in nature. This is a not just valid, but common. HighInBC 16:01, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

The user was blocked for a username violation, because there is an organization called "Templestay" with a matching webpage Templestay.com. The user was reported to

Earlier this year, the Ukrainian parliament has passed a law banning toponyms of Communist origin. Several days ago, it approved (and in some cases not approved) lists of localities to be renamed. Because of that, we have many Ukrainian users, some of them being established editors, but others just being random lurkers, renaming a large amount of articles. Some of the moves went smoothly, but some met resistance, for example, I had to fully protect

• All changes should be sourced. If there are doubts as whether a source is reliable, I am willing to provide advise;
• Old names should be kept as historical, not just removed;
• No nationalist cruft should be added and no useful info should be removed (for example, if a Russian name was in an article, it should stay there and not just get removed);
• They should be uncontroversial. If users in good standing object, the discussion should start at the talk page. All moves of Crimean toponyms are likely to be controversial.

I suggest that if a move with subsequent editing does not satisfy the above guideline, the user should be notified at their talk page, and if they are unwilling to correct, their contribution should be reverted.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:19, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Good idea; further, I'd be willing to watchlist some articles (if a list of articles which might be editid is feasible at all); in additon, pending-changes level 1 protection might be appropriate to stop the worst "onslaught" of anonymous or newly-created users. Lectonar (talk) 11:32, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Because the Ukrainian parliament is not English usage, we need to enforce our naming conventions by reverting all moves of this sort unless solid evidence can be shown that English usage has changed. This is why

Kiev. Nyttend (talk

) 12:48, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Nyttend. All new Ukrainian names should be redirects to the old names until standard English usage can be shown ti have started using the new names. Protection may be used as necessary to enforce this, as we do with all other issues. And yes, when we do move the articles to the new Ukrainian names, we should keep the old names as redirects. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:14, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Pinging for safety @

Dnipropetrovsk, and there is a heated discussion at the talk page. However, since the Rada also renamed some localities Ukraine does not control - in Crimea and in the separatist areas of Luhansk and Donetsk Oblasts - I can imagine some issues there as well.--Ymblanter (talk

) 13:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Plenty of detailed

maps of Ukraine have been printed in English-language publications, and those will demonstrate established English usage. Of course, if they disagree with each other, that will demonstrate the absence of establishment. Nyttend (talk

) 14:25, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Ok, so I see no reason to wait for English maps to be printed for Ukraine. If the locality is neither a major city nor a place that is often mentioned in English media, I'd say there is no problem in moving it. Jeppiz (talk) 14:29, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. For many years, lots of atlases have been printed that depict localities in Ukraine; you don't have to wait. Just visit your local library if you don't already own such an atlas. Nyttend (talk) 19:06, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't see what you mean: Oluwa2Chainz's first edit was 12 May 2015, not 12 May 2016 (the day before Wikicology's block). BethNaught (talk) 13:49, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

And has 11,000 edits...

^{Imperatrix Mundi}

13:52, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Given how their talk page history isn't filled with complaints I am thinking it is probably someone different. I know that in Kenya every IP I tried to use was blocked on a lot of websites, I don't think they have a lot of IPs. HighInBC 13:55, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Trout duly noted, and I'll grant the IPBE. Thanks and all the best, Miniapolis 14:07, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

OK, this may not be the best place to ask but it's driving me crazy. Another user asked for somebody to create a Commons category titled National Cutting Horse Association Hall of Fame. This user uploads lots of great photos, so I created the page on Commons (which I've done before). However, I forgot to make it a category page.😝 Can somebody please get over there and make the page into a category so some photos can be uploaded to it? I would ask on Commons but they don't have a lot of English speakers in their help page. It won't give me the page move tab there, either. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 19:03, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

@White Arabian Filly:  Done Mdann52 (talk) 19:43, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! I'm sorry I messed it up in the first place. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 21:39, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I just created

Done. See the "move" tab at the top of every page; that's all you need. Basic instructions at

WP:MOVE. Nyttend (talk

) 03:09, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Wow, both instructions on how to fix the problem and the prac-ap of it being done. Thanks, Nyttend! - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:54, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Blocked by

WP:NPA violations. I've also temporarily protected the article, just in case. --Kinu ^t/_c

19:22, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Closed. I don't consider myself involved though I work PERM pretty regularly, and this was clear to me. He can come back in six months. Katie^talk 18:46, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Frustrating, as he's obviously someone here to help and not a driveby MMORPG-er, but equally I can't see what he actually wanted the permission for (and if he's

Iridescent

18:59, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

talk

) 19:29, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Can an uninvolved admin please close Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Planned presidential transition of Mitt Romney? It has been open for three weeks now, has several dozen !votes and twice as many comments, and we're unlikely to see any new arguments that haven't been made. I have !voted myself, so I won't express an opinion here on how it should be closed, just that it should be. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 18:49, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

✓ Done. I don't see how I could have closed it any other way (the topic is obviously considered notable by enough people that it's not a clear-cut deletion, and there's no obvious merge target), but I nonetheless it to be at

Iridescent

19:06, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

seeing the above, I'm supposing it's okay to request this here...will an experienced, uninvolved admin undertake closing the RfC at "area of a disk"...it's been open about a month but discussion has pretty much died over the past couple of weeks...about 30 people contributed with 26 "voting" (16 to 10 favoring "circle") with lots of policy points/discussion on both sides...it's a very long rfc and will take a not insignificant amount of time to close it properly..so you'd have to be willing to spend some time...(I posted this on the closure noticeboard too a while back but it appears that's backed up for months on end etc)....68.48.241.158 (talk) 19:50, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Jim1138 keeps on removing what I write in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:500_Questions when I am trying to discuss something that I do not agree with. 108.162.157.141 (talk) 05:33, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

a bot just removed the template as 30 days has passed..so requesting again..will an experienced, uninvolved admin please undertake closing the RfC at "area of a disk"...it's been open a month but discussion has pretty much died over the past couple of weeks...about 30 people contributed with 26 "voting" (16 to 10 favoring "circle") with lots of policy points/discussion on both sides...it's a very long rfc and will take a not insignificant amount of time to close properly..so you'd have to be willing to spend some time...68.48.241.158 (talk) 14:31, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Will update the directions and edit notice to remind that pings are not sufficient.  Done — xaosflux ^Talk 21:01, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

The instructions are clear about using {{AN-notice}}, {{ANI-notice}}, etc. when there is a discussion about an editor. Would a user ping serve the same purpose? The only small technical difference is that it's received as an "alert" rather than a "message". Either way, the user should be able to get the notice. Both methods can indicate the involved thread. Are the noticeboard notices preferred over pings? — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 16:46, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Not all pings are successful. Sometimes it's a bug, sometimes the editor has done it incorrectly - they may try to fix it by editing an re-saving it but that doesn't work. Also, I get talk page notices automatically emailed to me, but not pings. Doug Weller talk 16:59, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

In addition, editors can opt-out of ping notifications, but not talk page notices. The only sure way to generate a notification is to edit a users talk page. —

Strongjam (talk

) 17:04, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Makes sense. Thanks — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 17:16, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. The templates were created long before Pings existed, and (I think) before alerts generated an email. All we had was the Big Orange Bar of Doom. As it stands now, pings can me shut down and Alerts can be disabled for everything except edits to your Talkpage. I personally prefer pinging, especially considering

WP:DTTR, but unfortunately the template is the only way to be certain they see the notice. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me}

17:20, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

And for transparency. It's easy for a discussion to get bogged down with claims of the user not being notified, someone digging out diffs of an aledged ping, etc, but there's no disputing the notice on the user's talkpage (even if they revert it). Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 17:47, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

• We've actually had this discussion 2 or 3 times since notifications came out, on the talk page here and ANI I think, and each time it was clear that a consensus believed that regular notifications are still required, for the reasons given above. Lugnuts probably points to the biggest issue, which is that others can clearly see you complied with notification by simply looking at the target's talk page history. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:19, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
  1. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive252#What_constitutes_notification.3F. — xaosflux ^Talk 03:47, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm interested in and have been following blocks and unblock requests on Wikipedia recently...can someone explain this one to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:108.162.157.141 ..it appears this user has had difficulty with the 3 revert rule in past...however, it appears to me A. Jim1138 beat him to 3 reverts on the talkpage of the relevant article...and B. the talk page question itself can't automatically be interpreted as forum discussion...I would interpret it as a question looking for knowledge/sources for potential new info to add to the article...so in this particular case it would seem Jim1138 is more out of line...??68.48.241.158 (talk) 14:18, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

You are supposed to notify people on their talk page when you bring them up, especially when making accusations by name, at AN/ANI. So, you should have placed a talk page message on Jim1138 and MusikAnimal's talk pages. You have to make sure you do this going forward. Thanks. Sergecross73 msg me 14:53, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Have you asked the admin @MusikAnimal: about this yet? The first step for clarifications of admin actions should be to the admin. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:58, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I was just trying to understand how things are working here...I wasn't trying to actually get involved...ie like using this as an example to understand how things work in practice...68.48.241.158 (talk) 15:01, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't matter, its still a requirement to notify people you discuss in these public forums. Even conceptually, it makes more sense to consult the person who did it, than to speculate with others who weren't even involved. Sergecross73 msg me 15:04, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Step one is to discuss with the blocking admin. We can't speak for them. HighInBC 15:05, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

okay I'll post on their talkpage about this thread...it's likely I'd like others to weigh-in too though, if they'd care to...68.48.241.158 (talk) 15:09, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

do I have to tell the other two as well? I don't really want them here arguing about it...68.48.241.158 (talk) 15:13, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes, you must notify anyone you bring up for discussion here. It is not acceptable to discuss people on a noticeboard without their knowledge. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 15:16, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

If you just want to ask someone a question, just post to their talk page; it really is that simple. If you reference other people, link their names [[User:username]] if you want them to get notifications. You do not have to contact them personally to have a discussion on someone else's user talk page. If you want to involve the blocked user, you will need to have the discussion on the blocked user's page - as it is the only thing they can edit. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:20, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

When I first reviewed the ANEW report, I sympathized with the anon in that they were questioning actual content and not intending to use the talk page as a forum. However the user is well aware of what constitutes edit warring and what they should do in such a scenario, as evidenced by their history of similar disruption. I would block on the basis of the edit warring on

exempt from the three-revert rule, particularly when it is policy-related. Jim1138, I know you mean no harm, but next time seek administrative assistance or outside help if you are presented with this problem, as technically those reverts are not exempt. Hope this clears things up and that we can all walk away learning something from this — MusikAnimal ^talk

15:30, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

MusikAnimal Yes. Will do. Jim1138 (talk) 09:42, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Based on the explanation of the blocking admin and the prior history of the IP I see nothing wrong with this block. HighInBC 15:38, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Same here. Sergecross73 msg me 15:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

thanks for the response and your reasoning...it seems this user has a hard time with the 3 revert rule in general...but the history also suggests to me that he's found himself in a couple other borderline situations where there was perhaps some other not entirely appropriate behavior on the part of others (like in this case)...but maybe this user's history has to play a part in the result...viewed in isolation, however, in regards to solely the issue with the talkpage I would think Jim1138 stepped more out of bounds...it was far too early to revert the post based on forum..so the initial revert was inappropriate imo...he then beat the IP to 3 reverts as far as I can tell...In any event, like I said, I'm kind of just trying to get a sense of how things work in practice...68.48.241.158 (talk) 15:58, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

As a general matter, you have to edit pretty badly to hit any of the hard boundaries that can get you blocked without a lot of prior back-and-forth. So you seem to be asking "just how badly can I edit without hitting one of those boundaries?". Don't ask that. Instead, try to edit as well as you can. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 02:40, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

• Note I have unblocked this user after they demonstrated an understanding of why they were blocked and made a commitment not to continue such behaviour. I also discussed this with the blocking admin and acted with their agreement. HighInBC 15:18, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

JzG has been admonished three times by ArbCom. Shouldn't he be out?New England Cop (talk) 05:02, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

His conduct on the GMO case was also subpar as discussed on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms/Proposed_decision#JzG but he was not a party, so escaped another admonishment there.Dialectric (talk) 05:32, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Three and a half times, I guess. New England Cop (talk) 05:46, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

This isn't baseball. HighInBC 05:36, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It was discussed and it was not decided to do that. If you want to go down that route see Wikipedia:Arbitration#Requesting arbitration and open a new case. Nobody but ArbCom has the power to desysop someone and this discussion is completely pointless. --Majora (talk) 05:39, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

If the community can elect him then we can unelect him. The time is ripe for that to happen. Maybe JzG will do the community justice and resign? New England Cop (talk) 05:46, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Desysoping is done(or not done as in this case) by arbcom, not noticeboards. As for them resigning that is something you will have to talk to them about. HighInBC 05:49, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

I have notified JzG that you started this thread about them, which is something you should have done first. HighInBC 05:51, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Finishing the sentence above '... in eight years'. I guess we are by now a couple of innings further. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 06:32, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Wow! Was that one of the quickest closes ever? Surely threads should be allowed to run for at least 24 hrs (except for extreme circumstances) so that editors on the other side of the planet to the US have a chance to comment. DrChrissy ^(talk) 22:21, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

There's no need to keep the discussion going if there's nothing that can be done. Revocation of the admin bit is an ArbCom job, not an admin job. clpo13_(talk) 22:34, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

The OP was rather vague in what they were suggesting. "Shouldn't they be out" has been taken to mean desysop, but it could have meant a site ban (or other sanction) which can be settled here - I don't know. However, there would have been little harm in letting the thread run for a while so that if a proposal was taken to ARBCOM with a formal proposal to desysop, there would be a discussion in place for ARBCOM to decide whether they should take on the case. DrChrissy ^(talk) 22:50, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

• It should be noted that this is hardly a new record. In fact, one editor I'm aware of received five admonishments and a 6-month desysop between 2005 and 2009, and is still an active administrator. That being said, I think enough of the community's time has been wasted regarding the events of four days in April. The damage is done, and now in order to heal we need to forgive and move on. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 23:27, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Getting kinda crowded in there. HalfShadow 05:53, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

We are aware of the backlogs. No need to bring them to our attention. Katie^talk 19:00, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Appealing user

sfarney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 08:25, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

You are prohibited from (i) from editing articles related to Scientology or Scientologists, broadly defined, as well as the respective article talk pages and (ii) from participating in any Wikipedia process relating to those articles, including as examples but not limited to,

administrators' noticeboard and so forth, for a period of one year.[7]

Administrator imposing the sanction

The Wordsmith (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a

diff

of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by sfarney

Prioryman (talk · contribs) filed the May 31 AE request that resulted in the ban. Immediately after filing the AE request, Prioryman selected and canvassed The Wordsmith (talk · contribs) to participate.[8][9]

The Wordsmith is not uninvolved as is required by WP, but has more or less admitted s/he is an ex-member of the cult and boasted about her/his wealth of primary source materials s/he owns. ("I have seen many "confidential" internal Scientology documents, own the Red Volumes, Green Volumes and (Incomplete) Blue Volumes, and have listened to many tapes, including some extremely rare and confidential ones. I also have much of the content of the unpublished OT IX and X levels (fascinating stuff). It is safe to say that I'm probably the most well-versed Wikipedian on the topic of Scientology, moreso than most actual Scientologists. I have listened to the Exteriorization and Rudements tapes, and can confirm that Prioryman's edits accurately reflect their content. I don't have any copies of The Auditor, but I probably know someone who does and could look into it. I recommend no sanction against Prioryman, and at a minimum an admonishment to the filing editor. "Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Prioryman) The text of that statement makes clear that The Wordsmith was not judging the situation on WP policies and agendas, but on a scale of Scientology/anti-Scientology.

The Wordsmith accused me of being a Single Purpose Account, but any dispassionate review of my edit history shows that I cover a wide variety of topics with strong edit histories on each, from technology to culture, science to the Bible, and much in between. I have been an editor here since 2012, and I did not touch a Scientology article until 2015.

The May 31 AE request was quite obviously a retaliation for my ArbComm request on May 25 against Prioryman. The Wordsmith participated in that action too, and immediately requested a Boomerang, without citing to any violations of WP policy. Notably, The Wordsmith had no comment on the violations of WP editorial conduct and policy that I was seeking to correct in that request.

Prioryman also canvassed another administrator,

This smacks of improper canvassing of administrators. Nobody can be uninvolved (as required by WP policy) if they are selected by one party and summoned to the bench. And any administrator who comes when summoned to a particular subject is not uninvolved.

The article

I argued extensively on the talk page against those edits, but I broke no WP rules or policies. Unable to convince the editors to follow policy, I took the matter to DRN. Robert McClenon immediately closed the issue, and suggested the matter was not DRN appropriate and should go to ArbComm.[11]

I believe these facts demonstrate that this issue did not receive a fair and impartial hearing -- and that the admins were strongly predisposed to the decision.

Note that the AE discussion was closed at 15:36, 31 May 2016 (UTC). Damotclese (talk · contribs) added further comment two hours later at 17:47, 31 May 2016 (UTC).

My request: This ban should be lifted and the appropriate policies should applied to the topic. The editors and administrators who are abusing the policies should be addressed by properly uninvolved administrators who will do what they find appropriate in accordance with the findings of the 2009 Scientology Arbitration.

(I will undertake to update the links in this text when the AE discussions are archived.)

• Though several admins comment that the ban is "appropriate", no one has yet shown that I have done anything on this subject in violation of any WP policies. Surely, WP requires more than "we don't like you", and "you are in the way" to ban someone's editorial opinions. In addition to those problems, no one quibbles with my criticisms of that page. All the comments implicitly agree with me. Where is the rule book, folks? Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 15:40, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
• I call The Wordsmith involved because with the large collection of which s/he boasts, obviously the subject is a big part of his/her life. I have not objected to him/her editing, but I do object to him/her applying WP administrative functions as though s/he were ruling on the conflicts between pro- and anti- instead of WP policies. I believe that is improper. So would I believe if the Pope were sanctioning apostates. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 15:46, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
• Some editors seem to be arguing that regardless of what laws I broke or whether I broke ANY, I should still be punished. This is a very odd argument. Do we punish people for being inconvenient? In the real world, if SPA is not appropriate, the sanction should be canceled. No harm, no foul. If the antagonists want to bring another matter, they should start a new AE action. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 17:32, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
• @The Wordsmith: Thanks for the advice on my signature. You could have mentioned that on my user page without going through AE. It is quite recent and I have no problem altering it.
• As for the sanction, the usual process is to consider whether the accused has broken any laws or rules. As Alice told the Red Queen, the verdict should come first.[12] But as yet, no one has shown that I broke any of the rules. My biggest crime seems to be that I insist that Wikipedia should treat an unpopular subject in accordance with standard editing policies. Insisting that the topic reveals the
  WP:VERIFIABILITY. So let's have a little discussion, if you please, about whether I have committed any wrongs and what those wrongs might be. There will be time enough for the sentence after considering the verdict. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk
  18:43, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
• I think the question deserves a direct answer here, folks. What exactly am I being sanctioned for? Which policy have I violated? What conduct must others avoid so that they do not share my fate? And what will you do for that article that is so blatantly in violation of
  WP:FRINGE? Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk
  19:49, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
• (Responding to off-line remarks on my user talk page:) Let us recall that The wordsmith was first to bring up his/er private life background, boasting that s/he knew more about the subject than any of the believers and had a handsome library of primary source books and recordings. The wordsmith's statement was an argument from
  WP:VERIFIABILITY of the article. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk
  21:01, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
• The Wordsmith has written below the following statement: "There is also private evidence in play, which I have submitted to the Arbitration Committee." If The Wordsmith did not consider it substantive, those words would not have been written. But if The Wordsmith (and others) considered it substantive and based his/er decision on it, I should be allowed to address it. Instead, it is hidden from me and from this forum. Does anyone care that this matter is off the road and into the weeds, far from the principles that Wikipedians believe they are following? Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 05:37, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
• This just gets odder and odder. An admin uninvolved editor states that those who agree with me have a "clearly deep partisanship" and are not "capable of rendering an unbiased opinion in this matter." Even the witnesses and commenting editors are attacked if they speak the wrong words! And not a word here about the "deep partisanship" demonstrated by Prioryman and his/er earlier cognomen, "ChrisO", when s/he was sanctioned by Arbitration and then pardoned? Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 22:16, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
• More news in the odder and odder department: Admin Dennis Brown declares (below) that his opinions about the issue have nothing to do with content (which is the only real product of Wikipedia and is being tragically ignored in this proceeding), but only about my conduct in "dealing with others". Admin Dennis Brown was witness to Prioryman's personal attacks against me in the May 25 proceeding (linked above), and acknowledged them at the time. But Dennis Brown says nothing about Prioryman's conduct now. Instead, Dennis Brown makes vague, unsupported statements about my conduct. This allegation by Dennis Brown about me without evidence is itself a personal attack
  WP:PA: Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk
  00:15, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
• A Note to BMK: Please do not attempt to give other editors legal advice about what they can consider and not consider in commenting on these proceedings. Your statements are not backed by WP policy. This is not "litigation" (as you call it) and the rules of Appeals Courts do not apply. Other editors may examine as many facts as they hold to be relevant, they may investigate wherever they wish, and they may offer their opinions freely, without the crab-jointed constraints of The Rules of Federal Procedure and American courts. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 06:06, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
• It is singularly improper for JBH (moving party below) or anyone else to misrepresent the bases of this appeal, of which the multiple major points are: (1) The ruling admin (The Wordsmith) was canvassed and summoned to the hearing by the filing party. (2) The admin sanctioned me on the accusation that I was
  WP:FRINGE to a T (wild accusations supported only by flimsy sources) and violates WP editing policies. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk
  15:01, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
• Truly, the article
  WP:PSTS states, Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. When an editor repeatedly violates editorial policy, that editor should be disciplined. When an admin supports the editor by sanctioning the reporter of those violations, that admin is clearly out of line. To pretend this is NOT a content issue is disingenuous. To pretend this is ONLY a content issue misses the boat entirely. If this sanction is upheld, it will be a sad day for Wikipedia because that will mark a day when Wikipedia's goals are officially sacrificed to another agenda. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk
  21:15, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
• Then, Lankiveil (talk · contribs), as one more editor who is certain the correct decision has been reached, you can tell me what rules I have broken and which policy you would be pleased to see applied. That would edify both me and any outside editors who might be puzzled by this process. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 14:40, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
• WP:SPA is simply bizarre and wrong. Having done wrong, you now rectify your mistake -- or you do not. There is no "offer" and acceptance of "offer". If you want to do something nice, you should tell this forum why you are punishing me and exactly when I supposedly transgressed. No wait -- justice requires that also of you, and you will not have my agreement to do anything less. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk
  15:17, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
• Dennis Brown asserts that "There is no justice at Wikipedia." If s/he truly believes that Wikipedia has none of the qualities among the editors that we call JUSTICE, I suggest it is long past time for Dennis Brown to work in the direction of implementing it -- or resign from his admin position until he is willing to do so. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 20:41, 6 June 2016 (UTC)