Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Eclipse (Heroes)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sandstein 06:57, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Eclipse (Heroes)

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The Eclipse (Heroes) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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This article has had issues since 2011 and they have not been addressed. There are five references four of them are there to give a rating of the episode, and they are slapped on the end of the article. It looks like they did this to avoid speedy deletion. Should be deleted and redirected to the season article. Previous editors have tried to address this and redirect to the season article but as of now there is not consensus. Dr vulpes (💬 • 📝) 00:12, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete per nom unless WP is now a clearinghouse for episode recaps from every flash in the pan TV show made since its inception. Just Another Cringy Username (talk) 05:08, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    No, we have
    guidelines to determine what is notable. The fact that most popular television episodes have multiple RS reviews appears to bother you. I suggest you spend some time to study and internalize our deletion guidelines, as you appear to have a really poor grasp of them. Jclemens (talk) 01:43, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Keep GNG is met by reviews already linked in the article, per Donaldd23. Jclemens (talk) 01:43, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I think there's more to it than that. Otherwise anything mentioned twice in a newspaper would be notable. As the nom noted, the sourcing appears to be a perfunctory gesture, w/ the real goal being "getting my episode recap into WP." Just Another Cringy Username (talk) 03:14, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: See comment on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Villains (Heroes) relisting.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 03:40, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, KSAWikipedian (talk) 14:53, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Beyond the reliability of a source issue, the article still fails GNG and NEPISODE. Let's start with the article history involving reverts of redirects, because every time a redirect is reverted, the article is added back to the NPP queue, and this article has had issues dating back to July 2011, and all this time, nothing has changed that warrants keeping it; rather, it has become a time sink.
  1. Redirected 2022-04-29
  2. Donaldd23 reverted - needs discussion
  3. Redirected again 2022-08-23
  4. again Donald23, added 2 sources
  5. AfD nom reason: This article consists almost entirely of a plot summary. It should be expanded to provide more balanced coverage that includes real-world context. (July 2011) This article needs additional citations for verification. (July 2011)
And here we are now with more reasons this article should be deleted:
  • The 4 sources fail to establish N per both GNG and NEPISODE. Why? Put simply, we have a total of 4 sources for 2 different episodes = a couple per episode, not multiple as required. The NBC link is unrecoverable, and was only a listing, so it does not count toward N. See the following per NEPISODE (my emphasis):

An episode of a television series is not inherently notable simply because it has aired. Having a plot, episode-specific cast and crew or ratings and viewership numbers is sometimes redundant to similar information at a main article, season article, or an in-depth character article.

It goes on to explain the following which applies to the 2 reviews for each episode; i.e., all they talk about is the plotline:

Multiple reviews or other reliable, independent, non-trivial commentary demonstrate notability for a television episode. It is preferred to have reliable sources discussing production aspects of the episode in question, such as its development and writing; the casting of specific actors; design elements; filming or animation; post-production work; or music, rather than simply recounting the plot. This could include discussions of its broader impact. The scope of reviews should extend beyond recaps and simple review aggregator coverage, such as Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic. While these may be used in episode articles that have already demonstrated notability, a reception section only comprising these is generally not adequately demonstrating coverage. See "Fire and Blood", "Filmed Before a Live Studio Audience", "Marge vs. the Monorail", or "Volcano" as examples of such articles.

Ironically, the 2 cited sources per episode discuss how bad the actual series and episodes are per the following two examples, beginning with Part 1 review by The A.V. Club Tonight's part one of a two-parter, though, wasn't half bad. Actually, it was: It was half-bad. Some plotlines flatlined, as usual, but some actually had me genuinely curious about next week and hoping "The Eclipse, Part 1" wasn't yet another upswing that's indicative of nothing. Graded C-, and then there is the IGN plotline review:
Part 2: What was the point? What did we learn from this power-stealing eclipse that we couldn't have found out some other, possibly more interesting way? The article fails GNG, the redirects are not resulting in noticeable improvement to warrant a standalone, so deletion is the proper action. These 2 episodes are already listed in List of Heroes episodes #44 + #45, and I no longer see a purpose for redirecting, only to have it reverted. Atsme 💬 📧 14:04, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'll note that the keeps are noting how NEPISODE and GNG are met by multiple reviews, while those opposed to keeping an article are attempting to move the notability bar higher in an appeal to non-policy, non-guideline "there should be MORE coverage" arguments. Jclemens (talk) 01:56, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • confused face icon Just curious...how did you determine that 2 sources for each episode is considered "multiple", especially when those sources are nothing but aggregator coverage of plotlines? 2 = a couple for each episode, but if we combine the reviews in the 2 AV sources and 2 IGN sources in the same manner the article combined the 2 episodes, we end-up with only 2 RS (1 AV + 1 IGN) when there should be at least 6, a couple of which should cover more than the yada yada plotlines. I don't see anything in the delete votes that are raising the bar, but it does appear that the keeps want the bar lowered in order to meet GNG. Atsme 💬 📧 13:19, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question To those saying delete: why exactly is redirecting not an acceptable option? Redirecting is common practice when it comes to non-notable episodes of notable shows (see Category:Redirects from episodes and its subcategories), people looking for the episode will still be navigated to a relevant page, editors wishing to expand the article upon gathering enough decent sources have at least a skeleton they can work with in the edit history, there's nothing in the article that warrants speedy deletion (as such copyright problems or harassment), and anyone could create the redirect immediately after deletion. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 02:41, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I already provided a valid reason above, but again, it already went through 2 redirects and 2 reverts. It is low volume in page views, and is already listed in List of Heroes episodes. We do not want to get in the habit of redirecting every episode of a TV series. Atsme 💬 📧 02:58, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • If the redirects keep being undone, we can restore the redirects and lock the page; see also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thom Huge (3rd nomination) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Curious George 3: Back to the Jungle, both of which resulted in a redirect and perma-lock in response to the redirects being undone.
    • Even if it is low in page views, there is still a navigational benefit to having these redirects around; for example, it makes for a nice, clean link on a page like Eclipse (disambiguation).
    • Common practice is to create or at least have redirects for episodes even - no, especially - if they're already listed on a list of episodes. There's an entire category tree dedicated to these redirects that I pointed to above, most of which point to specific anchors on the list; am I to believe that all 20,000+ of them need to be deleted?
    • If, after all of that, you still think the title is not suitable for a redirect, you can take it to
      WP:CHEAP
      , but if you feel it's worth a shot, I'm not going to stop you.
    -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 23:06, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.
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