Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 27

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May 27

Category:Treaties of the medieval Islamic world

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge.
(non-admin closure) CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 23:47, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: A
WP:NONDEFINING for treaties. (Note: I previously CfD'd this as part of a package, but the discussion became confused and complicated, so I withdrew it. I'm taking it one at a time now). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:17, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:1st-century rulers in Europe

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: downmerge.
(non-admin closure) CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 23:47, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:SMALLCAT 0 P, 1 C. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:56, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Marcomannic rulers

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename.
(non-admin closure) CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 23:49, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:Monarchs in Europe. And because "Marcomannic monarchs" is such a great alliteration. Nah, just kidding. ;) Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:50, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Question @Nederlandse Leeuw: Was Catualda a monarch? - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:48, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    As far as the Romans were concerned, yes. He deposed king Marboduus in order to take his place. He reigned for a brief time. Article Vibilius has him as a "king": According to Tacitus, Vibilius deposed the Marcomannic king Catualda, who had himself deposed Maroboduus in 18 AD. I guess we could also Rename to "Marcomannic kings" if we wanted to. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:02, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    s:en:Ab_excessu_divi_Augusti_(Annales)/Liber_II#LXII s:en:The_Annals_(Tacitus)/Book_2#62
    Tacitus repeatedly identifies Maroboduus as a "king":
    • 26: regemque Maroboduum/king Maroboduus
    • 44: set Maroboduum regis nomen invisum apud popularis/But the title of king rendered Maroboduus hated among his countrymen
    • 45: e regno etiam Marobodui/(even) from the kingdom of Maroboduus.
    Tacitus does not explicitly identify Catualda as a "king", but it is clear that he temporarily took Maroboduus' place on the Marcomanni throne. Translators Church & Brodribb 1876 add the word 'king' and 'kings' in two places not found in the original Latin, however.
    • 62: Catualda, profugus olim vi Marobodui et tunc dubiis rebus (lit. 'when in doubtful circumstances') eius ultionem ausus./Catualda [had] formerly been driven into exile by the might of Maroboduus, and who now, when the king's fortunes were declining, ventured on revenge. He (...) burst into the palace and into an adjacent fortress. This is Catualda displacing Maroboduus from his seat of power, driving him into exile in Italy.
    • 63 (...) Maroboduus, now utterly deserted, had no resource but in the mercy of Caesar. (...) as a most famous king in former days [clarissimum quondam regem] (...) Maroboduus was kept at Ravenna. Catualda had a like downfall and no better refuge. Driven out soon afterwards (...) he was received and sent to Forum Julii, a colony of Narbonensian Gaul. The barbarians who followed the two kings... [barbari utrumque comirati...].
    So while Tacitus never explicitly calls him a rex (as the translators do), he treats Catualda and Maroboduus the same, as men who came into power within the Marcomanni kingdom, then had a downfall and had to go in exile in the Roman Empire. Scholars:
    • Gowing (1990) p. 325-326 analysed how Tacitus' goal was to show the Roman client king system didn't work, that Maroboduus was simply another failed client king, and that Tacitus notes that Catualda soon suffered the same fate as his predecessor and was later settled together with his followers across the Danube.
    • Tejral (2018) similarly writes: ...antique written reports on retinues of the deposed barbarian rulers Maroboduus and soon after him Catualda, who were settled by the Romans on the barbarian shore of the Danube....
    • András Mócsy (2014), p. 14: Tiberius had Maroboduus overthrown by Drusus. The German king fled to the empire, where he was granted asylum and interned in Ravenna. Shortly afterwards the new king, Catualda, who had been installed by Drusus, was also overthrown, and he, too,, was given asylum in the empire. Gowing points out that Tacitus omitted to mention that Drusus (Drusus Julius Caesar, son of Tiberius) was the one behind the resettlement arrangement of emperor Tiberius' ally Maroboduus (which he does mention about Vannius, Claudius' ally), and Mócsy concludes that Catualda was Drusus' ally, that Drusus was behind Catualda's overthrow of Maroboduus (Tiberius' former ally), and Catualda thus became the new Marcomanni king as a client of Drusus (Seager 2005 drew the same conclusion). Gowing observed that in each of these three cases, a Roman general failed to assist the client king that was their ally, and after the expulsion of each client king, he sought refuge with this Roman general who was supposed to have protected him.
    That should suffice. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:31, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Jeez, @Nederlandse Leeuw:, I would have accepted "Yes"! Rename & Reparent per nom and detailed reply. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:53, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry! I got a little carried away. :p Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 03:58, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename and re-parent per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:25, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:6th-century rulers of Brittany

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename.
(non-admin closure) CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 23:51, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Re-parent All from Category:Foo-th-century rulers in Europe to Category:Foo-th-century monarchs in Europe
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:Monarchs of Brittany. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:19, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Dutch manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename.
(non-admin closure) CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 23:57, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: To match actual contents. "Dutch" was mistaken to be "about the Netherlands" (by topic) and "in the Netherlands" (by area/location), including the Category:Manuscripts of Leiden University Library, which, however, is in Category:Manuscripts by collection. Renaming to Category:Dutch-language manuscripts thus also avoids future confusion about what "Dutch" means here. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:38, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Former Critics of Islam

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: delete.
(non-admin closure) CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 23:58, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: This currently holds Joram van Klaveren, a former critic who converted to Islam. There exists Category:Former Muslim critics of Islam (former Muslims who became critics) but no other "former" categories in Category:Critics of religions. I have added the member page to Dutch critics of Islam. – Fayenatic London 21:29, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:German chronicles

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 5#Category:German chronicles

Category:French chronicles

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename.
(non-admin closure) CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 00:00, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:History books about France. This is in the Category:Works by topic tree. I've split off Category:French-language chronicles to make the distinction clear. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:23, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Lithuanian chronicles

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename.
(non-admin closure) CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 00:00, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:History books about Lithuania (and Category:Chronicles by topic, which I just added). Compare Category:Latin chronicles about Poland. These chronicles are about Lithuania as a topic; they are not written in Lithuanian or necessarily by Lithuanians. Renaming avoids confusion with Category:Chronicles by language. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:58, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Speed skating venues

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge.
(non-admin closure) CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 00:01, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT. –Aidan721 (talk) 15:22, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Manuscripts by area

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 18#Category:Manuscripts by area

Outdoor ice hockey venues

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge and delete.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:09, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT. Delete the United States category as it is populated with baseball/football stadiums that have hosted ice hockey events once or sparsely. Move the articles that were primarily ice hockey venues to Category:Outdoor ice hockey venues. –Aidan721 (talk) 14:34, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Flag literature

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:08, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Same topic. Category:Literature on vexillology is more specific, and the older of the two. Category:Literature by topic should certainly be kept, but just "Category:Flags" is not specific enough. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:05, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Curling venues

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:08, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT. –Aidan721 (talk) 13:51, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Albanian-speaking countries and territories

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:08, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language. All 4 items are/were countries/territories where Albanian is/was an official language. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:40, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Polish chronicles

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:15, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Ok so I created Category:Latin chronicles about Poland as a separate category with the idea of making a distinction between "Latin chronicles about Poland" and "Polish-language chronicles about Poland", but now it turns out that each item in the category was actually in Latin haha. Well I guess the new category I created has a more precise name, and Category:Polish chronicles should be taken out of Category:West Slavic chronicles because there is nothing "Slavic" about texts written in Latin. Other than that, this should just be merged. I do realise, however, that the interwikis may no longer be valid, because e.g. pl:Kategoria:Polskie kroniki has a mix of Latin and Polish-language texts.Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:16, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale (amended): I concluded it is best to rename/rescope this by topic, and treat about Poland as the topic, per
WP:C2C parent Category:History books about Poland. See reply to Marcocapelle below for explanation. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:41, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Olympic Egyptian women's beach volleyball players

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:07, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Intersection not appearing at other places in the Olympic competitors tree. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 12:09, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Royal families of the Americas

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: split.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:06, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: there is no reason to create supercontinent categories here, we do not do this for Eurasia either. See also simultaneous CfMs Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_May_27#Category:Assassinated_politicians_in_the_Americas and Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_May_27#Category:Monarchs in the Americas. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:06, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle FYI. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:11, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • That would not be a defining characteristic for them. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:41, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. But I dont see why categorization by continent is helpful at all in these cases.★Trekker (talk) 07:58, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's worth looking at the
Margrethe II of Denmark is a monarch in Europe, but not a monarch in North America, despite Greenland (probably also because Greenland is not sovereign). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:55, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Monarchs in the Americas

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:06, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: there is no reason to create supercontinent categories here, we do not do this for Eurasia either. See also simultaneous CfM Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_May_27#Category:Assassinated_politicians_in_the_Americas. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:03, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle FYI. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:11, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:10th-century BC Kings of Syria

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: rename per actual name of the territory
WP:CFDS. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:45, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
@Hey man im josh: pinging nominator at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:49, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Assassinated politicians in the Americas

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge to
(non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 01:38, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: merge, there is no reason to create supercontinent categories here, we do not do this for Eurasia either. Earlier there was a rename discussion at
WP:CFDS, but we can better have that discussion together with the Asian, European and African siblings, maybe later. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:35, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
earlier rename discussion at
WP:CFDS
@Thinker78, Kaffet i halsen, and StarTrekker: pinging contributors to earlier rename discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:38, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Upmerge per nom. This reminds me, we should probably also upmerge Category:Monarchs in the Americas to Category:Monarchs by continent, and Category:Royalty in the Americas to Category:Royalty by continent, but at the time of renaming (7 March/9 May) we didn't make a decision on that. I'm gonna CfM them now. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:58, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Marcocapelle, you never replied to my earlier comment addressing precisely this view. I copy paste it herein, There are three categories in Category:Assassinated politicians in the Americas and maybe there should be four, including Central Americans. Another difference with Eurasia are the names. North America, South America, Central America. Meaning different parts of the continent America (as it is known in Spanish and other languages except in the United States). Therefore, the similitude is more with Asia – South Asia, Europe – Western Europe.
Also, do people in Eurasia regularly talk about socioeconomic issues in Eurasia as it is common in reliable sources about the Americas? The New York Times[1], CNN[2], The Guardian[3] have sections of news in the Americas but not Eurasia. Apparently Americas in their view include all the countries from Canada to Argentina, except the US. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 01:20, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • On Wikipedia we categorize everything by country and by the six continents as they are commonly known in the English speaking world. It is redundant to also categorize by a concept like the sum of two continents minus one country, even if that concept is occasionally used as such. We can of course have a category about that concept, Category:Americas, but we do not need to intersect any random topic with it, like assassinated politicians. We should have intersections of Americas with topics that the Americas share but the rest of the world doesn't (although no particular topic comes to my mind.) The same applies to Eurasia, we can have Category:Eurasia, plus intersections with topics that Europe and Asia share in contrast to other continents. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:49, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    You mean in the English speaking world (including India, Australia, the UK, Ireland) or only the USA? Plus you forgot to share reliable sources backing your claim. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 00:17, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    In addition, regarding Eurasia, you don't hear about North Eurasia, South Eurasia, Central Eurasia commonly like in the case of the Americas (North America, South America, meaning the north and south of America). Therefore I don't think it is a proper analogy. In Latin America, America is the continent spanning from Alaska to Argentina. For some reason the USA appropriated the term for itself. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 00:23, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.nytimes.com/section/world
  2. ^ https://www.cnn.com/world
  3. ^ https://www.theguardian.com/world
  4. ^ "F-10 Curriculum Geograph". Australian Curriculum, Assessment, and Reporting Authority. Archived from the original on 24 March 2014.
  5. ^ "National curriculum in England: geography programmes of study". UK Department for Education.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Eureka (American TV series)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:14, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: rename using a far clearer disambiguation, in order to distinguish it from Eureka! (2022 TV series). This was opposed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:18, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
copy of speedy discussion
@Gonnym, Armbrust, and Fayenatic london: pinging contributors to speedy discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:20, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Hard science fiction

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 15#Category:Hard science fiction

Bandy players in Finland by club

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: delete.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:14, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: delete per
WP:SMALLCAT. All players are already in Category:Finnish bandy players. –Aidan721 (talk) 00:19, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Bandy venues

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:15, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT. Do not need to merge to Sports venues in country (except the one noted case) as they are already in that tree. –Aidan721 (talk) 00:03, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
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