Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Donkey Kong Country/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 19 August 2022 [1].

Donkey Kong Country

Nominator(s): JOEBRO64 and ♦ jaguar 16:33, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Donkey Kong Country is one of those rare (ba-dum-chiss) video games where it's impossible to overstate its influence. It transformed Donkey Kong from a dusty, archaic product of the olden days into a multimillion-dollar franchising juggernaut, turned the tide of the 16-bit console wars by giving players a taste of 3D graphics well before they could actually play next-generation hardware, and elevated Rare from a tiny, unknown studio into one of the video game industry's premier developers. Its reputation has floundered a bit over the years (thanks in part to a seemingly baseless claim that Donkey Kong's legendary creator, Shigeru Miyamoto, despised it) but it remains an important game that defined every subsequent Donkey Kong game and set a new standard for how video game graphics would be judged.

Jaguar and I initiated plans to revitalize and expand this article after it badly deteriorated in the years following its initial GA promotion, and lo and behold, here is the finished result (with some very helpful copyediting by Popcornfud). I believe it's the most comprehensive treatment of the subject on the internet, documenting a copious number of interviews, sales reports, contemporary reviews, and whatnot. Now, let's get into some monkey business. JOEBRO64 16:33, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SatDis

Apologies that I do not have a lot of time for comments, but I have left some notes below:

  • The lead reads excellently.
  • "Level tropes" - can "tropes" be described in more detail, like "location", "design theme"?
  • Can you clarify why "Contest game mode" and "Team game mode" have capital letters?
    • They're the names of the modes—I've added quotations around them to make it clear JOEBRO64 12:13, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rare assembled a team of 12, and production started around August 1993. The first demo was playable by November 1993." - these feel like three short sentences when read together. Can any clauses be combined or elaborated?
    • I've combined them into "After Rare assembled a team of 12 (the largest in its history at that point), production started around August 1993, and the first demo was playable by November 1993." JOEBRO64 12:13, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "change his composition methods based on it, which played on a role on Donkey Kong Country" - I'm not sure if this sentence is maybe too long, but the final part has confused me. What exactly played a role?
    • Changed to "he applied these lessons in Donkey Kong Country"—I think that's what I'd intended to write. JOEBRO64 12:13, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which lasted from 23 to 25 June 1994." - maybe "took place" or "occurred" instead of "lasted"?
    • Changed to "took place" JOEBRO64 12:13, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In reception, [79][85][86][74], just reorder.
  • "as well as Game Boy Printer support.[104][103]" same here.
  • "with Entertainment Weekly writing" - I've been told not to include verbs with -ing like this, but not sure here.
    • I think it should be fine here, though I did remove two other ones. JOEBRO64 12:19, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just a few notes, hopefully some help. SatDis (talk) 06:57, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments - should get to them later today. I'll try to review Wizards of Waverly Place by tomorrow JOEBRO64 06:44, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@SatDis: all done JOEBRO64 12:19, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks @TheJoebro64: your responses to the comments above have been approached diligent. Some of those confusing sentences are now much clearer. I am now happy to support this article on its prose and formatting. Well done and thanks for the interesting read on Donkey Kong! SatDis (talk) 04:35, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Media review from SNUGGUMS

I might review other aspects later, but here's something to start with. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 03:59, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@SNUGGUMS: thank you for the review! I've responded above JOEBRO64 12:21, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My pleasure, and to elaborate on the audio sample used, 30 seconds is the longest possibly allowed for tracks 5 minutes or longer. For any song shorter than that, you can only use a portion that's 10% or less of its total duration. This is why I didn't know for sure whether the half-minute piece here was within limits. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 12:29, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
ah, I'll trim it if that's the case. I just need to check how long the actual track is JOEBRO64 12:39, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The track is officially 3:30, so I chopped off 9 seconds. Should be good now! JOEBRO64 12:47, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is satisfactory, and the media review passes as a result. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 21:12, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Funk

  • Probably my favourite video game of all time, marking my spot. FunkMonk (talk) 10:57, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a bunch of
    WP:duplinks, which can be highlighted with this script:[2]
  • Level is linked at second instead of first mention.
  • "The player attempts to complete each level while jumping between platforms" This makes it seem like you constantly have to jump between platforms, when long stretches you can just walk? Since some levels you swim and drive, may be better to say something more general than "jump".
    • I've added "traversing the environment" ahead of "jumping between platforms"—does that work? JOEBRO64 13:16, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yep! FunkMonk (talk) 12:33, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • You could mention that the player can swap between the two characters at will.
  • Perhaps not a big deal, but maybe link the different kinds of animals mentioned in the article?
    • I'd argue that'd fall under
      WP:OVERLINK; in my view, words like "gorilla", "ostrich", etc. are common enough that they don't need to be linked JOEBRO64 13:16, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply
      ]
  • Is there no Brute Force article to link?
  • Link Game Boy at first mention.
    • Done—the location of the first mention shifted around a few times as I did further work JOEBRO64 13:16, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "are made Donkey Kong Country a side-scrolling platformer because the staff had grown up playing Nintendo's Super Mario games" Must have been extremely young staff if they "grew up" playing games released just a few years before?
    • Yeah, Gregg Mayles mentions several times in his interviews that the Rare staff was pretty young (including that he was only 22, so he would've been a teenager when Super Mario Bros. came out). The bit in particular comes his quote that "We wanted it to be a side-scroller because we'd all grown up playing Mario games and just wanted to make one of our own. So, kind of putting Donkey Kong in that style of game and trying to bring it up to date... we wanted it to be like a very modern feeling" around the 10:20 mark in the cited video. JOEBRO64 14:13, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mayles said "we thought a second character could perform this function, look visually impressive, and give the player a feeling that they were not alone"" It seems you don't explain explicitly anywhere that the two characters are visible on the screen at the same time.
    • Good point, I've added a mention in Gameplay JOEBRO64 14:13, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rambi the Rhino" and "Squawks the Parrot", should the animal type really be capitalised?
    • The animal species is part of the official name, but since they're already introduced above I just went ahead and removed them JOEBRO64 14:13, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "To develop Donkey Kong's movements, Rare staff spent hours at the nearby Twycross Zoo watching and videotaping gorillas,[28] but found their movements were unsuitable for a fast game, and instead based the animations loosely on a horse's gallop.[33]" This seems to be especially about his runcycle? Not much horse-like about his other movements...
    • Yeah it's referring to his running animation, clarified JOEBRO64 14:13, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mark Betteridge just links to Rare. You could present his occupation too, as you do with other people mentioned.
  • "Rare avoided mentioning that Cranky was the original Donkey Kong in the game and marketing materials, fearing that Nintendo would disapprove of the idea." I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in the manual, though?
    • Yeah, though I can't find any sources that confirm that—Mayles doesn't mention it in the interview. The instruction manual is usually one of the last things made in the development process so I'd imagine this was after Nintendo found out and was cool with it. JOEBRO64 14:13, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Would seem relevant to mention the connection as stated in the manual there then? It's under his entry here:[3] FunkMonk (talk) 14:25, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That should work. Done JOEBRO64 18:49, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it worth mentioning under legacy or something that DK's redesigned appearance was used in Donkey Kong (1994 video game) before the Rare game was released?
    • Donkey Kong '94 actually uses his original design, the only difference being that he sports the tie (which, of course, Donkey Kong Country would popularize), but from the sound of it, Miyamoto suggested the tie specifically for Donkey Kong Country. I can't think of a way to mention it without taking away focus from Donkey Kong Country and I feel like it's minor enough that it could be classified as mere trivia in regards to Country. JOEBRO64 14:13, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The artists began by rendering the characters in NURBS using PowerAnimator" Modelling might be a better term, since you later use rendering for another process.
  • Perhaps link
    spritesheet
    somewhere, maybe by " nimation for each sprite".
  • Linked (hopefully in the right place). ♦ jaguar 17:41, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • How many artists were there?
  • It depends how 'artists' is defined. The game's credits list six different staff members who worked on objects, background design, and graphics manipulation. This article's infobox, which I think is more accurate, lists a firm four. I can't find anything definite in the sources. I'm not sure I can confidently insert a figure into the article's prose (if that's what you were suggesting). Perhaps Joe knows for sure? ♦ jaguar 17:41, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If the number can't be found, nothing to do. FunkMonk (talk) 08:39, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "used the machines using" Any way to vary instead of double "use"?
  • Replaced first instance with 'operated'. ♦ jaguar 17:41, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rare attempted to keep the look of the levels consistent so different landscapes would not be right next to each other." What is meant by this, so tha progress would make sense from level to level in the overworld, or within levels?
  • Yes, my understanding was that it gave players a sense of orientation. Clarified in the prose. ♦ jaguar 17:44, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • it appears you went with UK English, but there are inconsistencies, such as "favorite" instead of "favourite", and you mix "ise" and "ize" endings, this should be checked throughout.
  • Fixed all inconsistencies. ♦ jaguar 17:41, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have a music section, but little to nothing about sound effects?
  • I'll see what I can do. ♦ jaguar 17:41, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The most I remember finding about the sound effects was who provided the Kongs'/Kremings' voice clips, that Tim Stamper had Wise include environmental sounds in the music since they couldn't be played directly in the game, and that Rare wanted real animal noises but had to settle for Betteridge's monkey clips because Rare couldn't capture them with their microphone at the zoo, all of which is discussed in the article. Video game sound design in general isn't something that is really discussed that much, unfortunately - but I'll wait to see what Jag can pull up. JOEBRO64 17:47, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If it can't be found, that's of course just how it is. FunkMonk (talk) 08:39, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Meh, I hate to disappoint but I couldn't find anything worthwhile to compliment what already has been mentioned throughout the article. I've added a visit to Twycross Zoo right at the bottom of my bucket list, though. ♦ jaguar 20:52, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A Game Boy port was planned but retooled into a separate game, Donkey Kong Land (1995), after the programmer Paul Machacek convinced Rare that it would be a better use of resources and expand the potential audience.[63]" Seems tacked on in the context section, doesn't it make more sense under aftermath or something like that?
  • Yeah you're right. I've moved it to the second paragraph in the aftermath section, where the sequels lie. ♦ jaguar 20:43, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The footnotes should have citations too.
  • Added citations to all except the first one, I can't find Fischer's credit... ♦ jaguar 21:07, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is generally advised that pictured individuals face towards the text, rather than away from it, as is the case with Shigeru Miyamoto here.
  • I've never heard of that? I tried moving it to the left but it squashed the next subsection, and some people frown on doing that. I've replaced it with another image of the handsome Japanese man. ♦ jaguar 21:07, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The guideline is here:[4] FunkMonk (talk) 21:30, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Kotaku said Donkey Kong Country was an event could not be replicated in modern" Missing "that could"?
  • "convert 3D models into SNES sprites without losing detail" Seems a bit of a stretch, perhaps with little loss of detail or similar?
  • Yes, 'little loss' is more accurate. Clarified. ♦ jaguar 21:17, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rare developed two sequels for the SNES, Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest (1995) and Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble! (1996). After a hiatus, during which Rare was acquired by Nintendo competitor Microsoft, Retro Studios revived the series with Donkey Kong Country Returns (2010) for the Wii and Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze (2014) for the Wii U." I would expect to see the N64 game listed here, before the hiatus?
  • Yes, added DK64. ♦ jaguar 21:17, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comments, FunkMonk. All have been addressed so far. ♦ jaguar 21:17, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - looking nice, does the game justice. FunkMonk (talk) 21:30, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Other comments from SNUGGUMS

  • All GameBoy release dates (both Color and Advance) need to be cited somewhere, preferably within article body, but even within the infobox is better than not having any refs for them at all
  • "18 months" from "work on Donkey Kong Country over 18 months" doesn't sound like accurate math when work is said to have begun around August 1993 before a November 1994 release. Those timeframes are actually 15 months apart. Can you pinpoint a day or even month when production finished? That would help narrow down a more likely start time.
    • So this is a little confusing and I can see why it needs to be clarified: the 18 month figure is the total amount of time it took for the game to evolve from concepts into the final product, while the August 1993 date is when work on the game itself actually started. I've clarified this in prose. JOEBRO64 18:35, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The use of "cited" from "frequently cited as one of the greatest video games" (both from lead and "Retrospective assessments") reads awkwardly. You'd be better off with something like "considered", "deemed", "perceived", or "ranked".
  • I'm a bit surprised the list of subsequent DK games in the lead doesn't include Donkey Kong 64 considering how that also became quite popular
  • Within the first paragraph of "Gameplay", it feels repetitive to start three consecutive sentences with "the"
  • Remove the colon from "Buddies include: Rambi"
  • You're using semi-colons excessively, and the second sentence from the last paragraph of "Gameplay" is quite a mouthful! You can split that apart by changing the semi-colons into periods.
    • Done, I also went through the article to remove other uses where it wasn't necessary. Looks like some got accidentally added during copyediting. JOEBRO64 18:35, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Try to change things up for the second paragraph of "Design" per my above comments on "Gameplay"
  • "too great a departure"..... I assume you mean "too much" or "too big" here for Diddy Kong's design, and either of those would work better than "great"
    • Yeah, did "too much of" JOEBRO64 20:18, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It cost an estimated US$1 million to produce and, at the time, had the most man hours ever invested in a video game, 22 years; in 2019, Gregg Mayles said this number would be impossible in the modern game industry." is another overly long sentence. See my above recommendation on how splitting can fix it.
  • "GamePro said it would be extraordinarily popular during the 1994 holiday shopping season." from "Reception" doesn't really tell us anything about whether the reviewer liked this game, and same goes for GameFan predicting influence
    • I've removed the GamePro one as I couldn't figure out a way to reword it, and reworded the GameFan one to be more about what it says the review thought of its quality JOEBRO64 20:53, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • You can probably guess what's wrong with "Consumers were unfamiliar with 3D graphics at the time; according to Official Nintendo Magazine, by bringing next-generation graphics to the SNES just 12 days before the PlayStation's Japanese launch, Donkey Kong Country persuaded consumers that an immediate upgrade was unnecessary." from "Legacy"
  • Unless Mekazoo, Kaze and the Wild Masks, and Kroko Bongo: Tap to the Beat! are likely to warrant articles in the near future, I'd unlink these
    • I've unlinked Kroko Bongo, but not the other two; from my searches, they appear to have gotten more than enough coverage to warrant standalone articles. JOEBRO64 20:18, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't italicize Digital Spy, "Square Enix Music Online", Fanbyte, Iwata Asks, AllGame, "All Things Andy Gavin", or "Original Sound Version"
  • In contrast, add italics for Game Informer and Advertising Age (which should read as Ad Age)
  • Citation#100 ("New screens honor the legacy of Donkey Kong Country - but WHY?") is missing a "+" for its GamesRadar+ bit
  • There's a HarvRef error for citation#119 ("Turner, Williams & Nutt 2003") when not connected to any used sources
    • I knew I was missing one of the HarvRefs when Jag and I were reworking the article. Fixed JOEBRO64 18:43, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, this isn't too far off from being FA-level. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 00:29, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@SNUGGUMS: thank you for the thorough review! I've responded to all points above JOEBRO64 20:53, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You're quite welcome, and just to be clear: is it known when work finished for the game? When the 18 month bit appears to have started before the August 1993 full-scale production began, that suggests conceptual work started May 1993 or earlier. Giving a timeframe for this could help narrow it down. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 21:37, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
SNUGGUMS, it doesn't appear anywhere in reliable sources, unfortunately. From my research, total development lasting 18 months and actual production beginning in August '93 is the most we know. I did some additional looking today (including in old Nintendo Power issues and documents Mayles has posted on his Twitter) and came up dry. If it appears in a reliable source eventually, I'll 100% add it in ASAP. JOEBRO64 07:29, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, and I now support the nomination based on changes already made. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 13:11, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Shooterwalker

I gave this one a read. I could nitpick, but I think the prose is solid. Excellent job on the influence section, to show the impact of this game and why it is so celebrated. Shooterwalker (talk) 00:29, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from CollectiveSolidarity

I did a peer-review on this a few weeks ago, and I’m pleased that the prose has improved even more from when I last checked. This is a great nomination, and I am happy to support based upon the research and prose. Excellent work!

talk) 04:42, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Comments from Retro

I have something of a long-term fascination with the DK series, so I was excited to see this article nominated for FA-status.

I did notice one thing:

Overall, this article has seen remarkable improvements in depth and composition quality since I last worked on it in 2018. Retro (talk | contribs) 15:12, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Retro: thank you for the kind words! I've responded above JOEBRO64 19:42, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Support) Source review from David Fuchs

In progress. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:19, 2 August 2022 (UTC) Working off of this revision:[reply]

I'm opposing at present, because I think the reliance on weak interviews is excessive. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 13:36, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Striking oppose. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:12, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strike a pose. Popcornfud (talk) 14:46, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@David Fuchs: Thank you for the review, I've responded to all points above. Are my changes/explanations enough for you to strike the oppose? If not please let me know and I can do some more work. JOEBRO64 14:41, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@David Fuchs: just a little nudge, hope you don't mind. JOEBRO64 21:43, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Random comment from Popcornfud

Would be good to standardize the capitalization styling of the citation titles — some use Title Case, some use sentence case. I realize this reflects the casing of the original sources but I believe we should be internally consistent. (I'd vote for going with sentence case, in keeping with Wikipedia's general MoS.) Popcornfud (talk) 12:35, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Popcornfud: think I got 'em all. ProveIt's a lifesaver. JOEBRO64 23:14, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Changed my mind, it was better before.
Just kidding, looks nice and tidy now. Popcornfud (talk) 23:39, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@WP:FAC coordinators: we good to go now? JOEBRO64 23:42, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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