Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/August 2009

ITN candidates for August 28

Kidnapping of Jaycee Lee Dugard‎

How about a mention of

I'd agree, certainly getting world-wide coverage. RxS (talk) 19:14, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comparable to the

Fritzl kidnapping. Very exceptional (not to praise it) crime.--Johnsemlak (talk) 19:30, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

How is this for starters? RxS (talk) 19:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't the location of Concord be clearly stated? I.e. Concord, California or something?--Johnsemlak (talk) 19:50, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I don't think Fritzl was even posted. And not really exceptional since Fritzl has already occurred. Either way, international kidnappings are regular enough and don't usually feature. I just don't see anything encyclopedic about this. --

•wicke 19:47, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Well, I think the Fritzl case should have been posted IMO. In any case, I don't think an 18 year kidnapping case is a 'regular' event. It's pretty unusual and rather newsworthy.Johnsemlak (talk) 19:54, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Newsworthy maybe but encyclopedic? The first of its kind? --

•wicke 19:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Must be encyclopedic, we have an article on it. And I doubt it has to be the first of its kind for inclusion, that would disqualify a multitude of significant events. This kind of kidnapping is quite rare, for it's length, children born etc. RxS (talk) 20:07, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"August 27 she was confirmed to be Jaycee Lee,with a DNA test pending" so what was method used to confirm if the DNA test is still pending. is it supposed to say it hasnt been confirmed yet? or am i just reading it wrong... -- Ashish-g55 20:02, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I read as they don't see a need for one because the family ID'd her well enough. I'd be surprised if they don't run one anyway. RxS (talk) 20:21, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(double ec)18 years may be a long time from a western perspective - but not neccesarily from a global perspective. You see documentaries every day that talk about unsolved kidnappings in Russia, Colombia, Somalia etc and these last for years and years. When you factor in the bias often afforded due to Missing white woman syndrome and I think you have a classic case of media sensationalism. Does Wikipedia really want to follow this line? --Daviessimo (talk) 20:04, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's a long time from any presepective. It's nearly a quarter of her lifetime, so yes, it's a long time. RxS (talk) 20:08, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Plus, it became more notable because the woman was found. Kidnapping cases in countries like Russia or Columbia may seem less notable because so often the victims are never found. I live in Russia and I certainly can't think of a case of a person being found after 18 years of kidnapping.--Johnsemlak (talk) 20:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I might add that this event is significant enough to be reported in Russia [4] despite Russia being plagued with kidnappings of its own.--Johnsemlak (talk) 20:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Daviessimo beat me to saying this: Missing white woman syndrome. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 20:24, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does that mean we report it if she were black?--Johnsemlak (talk) 20:29, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think you would have to take a step back from what your local and national media are telling you, ignore the headlines and work out if the story they're informing you of is truly significant or unusual. I am inclined to think nice story personally but no for Wikipedia and ITN on this one right now (if there is anything long-term or new to be revealed then who knows). However, others may differ. But when a story such as this features quite high on the front page of a prominent news site you do have to be careful and think about everything logically and encyclopedically and not jump to include anything on ITN too quickly when it has just happened. Then it moves closer to breaking news. --

•wicke 20:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

I'm not looking at local or national media. I'm looking at international media and seeing this reported. And I'm considering facts of the case that make it far more notable than than ordinary kidnappings. The woman was kidnapped and held in captivity for 18 years, bore two children, and found. That's a very significant crime and would make a list of notable kidnappings. There are many kidnappings all over the world but the way this one happened over a long period of time and was resolved is not typical.--Johnsemlak (talk) 20:35, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reading news outlets worldwide, it's a high profile kidnapping story that's already encyclopedic enough for Wikipedia, see

Kidnapping of Jaycee Lee Dugard. This section is called In the News and this is a news story being reported globally. It's a really unusual kidnapping and perfectly accepible for inclusion here. There's nothing that says we don't include breaking news items. RxS (talk) 20:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

It's not a matter of whether we "don't include breaking news items". It's a matter of whether we include every breaking news item. Sure, all items on ITN are breaking news, but just being breaking news alone doesn't make something ITN-worthy...it's a "necessary but not sufficient" criterion. If we included everything that was breaking news, the ITN box would be a lot bigger than it currently is. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 20:43, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No one said that we include all breaking news storys. I said we include some of them, which we do clearly. This story has enough coverage to justifly inclusion. It seems to have happened in the wrong part of the world though. RxS (talk) 21:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We did not include Fritzl case which was a lot more tragic and got lot more attention. including this without proving this is more notable to me sounds very iffy. global media tends to pick up same story but for ITN it needs to be notable and bias free (as much as possible). as stated above with Missing white woman syndrome putting this up mean we just followed media blindly which makes ITN a news source. it may not be stated that we dont put breaking news but it is stated that

wikipedia is not news-- Ashish-g55 20:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Not including the Fritzl case astounds me frankly. That was one of the world's biggest news items for several days, if not the biggest. But regarding this case, it seems that like the Ted Kennedy case we're too afraid to post a news item that has anything to do with the US or Western counties or whatever for fear of appearing biased. Also some opposers are making presumptions about other posters' biases (e.g. 'I think you would have to take a step back from what your local and national media are telling you'). The missing white woman syndrome argument does not consider the facts and worthiness of this case. On the contrary, it makes it appear only a non-white male's kidnapping is worthy of reporting. --Johnsemlak (talk) 20:54, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's my take-away as well. RxS (talk) 21:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Im from the UK and weve had non stop coverage of this all day on all news channels / in the headlines of all news reports. So the claim about "local and national media" are nonsense. I too am stunned that the Fritzl case did not get added to news, i hate to imagine what occupied the ITN section those days. The missing white woman syndrome comment was rather offensive, especially as this is about an 11 year old child kidnapped and raped. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be missing the entire point about the missing white woman syndrome: would we be reading about this, or discussing this, if Dugard were black? Indian? A boy? rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 21:09, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, yes and yes. RxS (talk) 21:13, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@Rjanag That's a horribly biased view of other people's world-view. It presumes that media outlets and readers are racist beyond any objectivity. There may be a small element of truth in that but to presume that that is the only reason this is being reported is heavily biased in and of itself. It's also a lazy argument that simply presumes people are prejudiced here and doesn't examine the facts of the event.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:18, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, Maybe a more important issue here is, were this to be a little black or indian boy, would it receive as much attention in the media - and if the answer was no, would you still feel it was being covered enough to put it up. My concern here is that when you blindly follow what the media do, you inherently build upon their biases. It is for that reason that Wikipedia:News articles states "A violent crime, sensationalized event or accidental death may be notable enough to reporters and news editors to justify coverage in the news, but not be of encyclopedic importance". --Daviessimo (talk) 21:17, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)eh? u really think worldwide media would follow a missing indian male... This has nothing to do with western or US news. The point is ITN doesnt follow media on everything. We know through MWWS that there is a select group that gets reported a LOT more often than other so putting this up on ITN just shows that ITN also wants to follow MWWS like other media. -- Ashish-g55 21:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If an Indian boy were missing, no it woudln't be reported. If he were found after 18 years of being kidnapped and abused, it would quite possibly make the BBC. Quite likely actually.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:30, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think Daviessimo's comment above pretty much says it all. News papers will add the news if they see that BBC is following and other few news papers are following. then more will add it as they dont want to be left out. soon it becomes a global news. but does it improve wikipedia as encyclopedia? no it does not. i can find alongside the kidnapping news many other news thats also reported on alsmost all sites and newspapers but that doesnt mean we must add it here too. -- Ashish-g55 21:39, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(multiple edit conflicts) Well, like I said, I'm going to stick with an oppose for now. There ought to be no hurry after all. I can recall at least one child abuse/incest incident which had comparatively minor attention yet was (as tends to be the way with these cases) no less horrific so I guess you can't be too careful. Statements such as "an 11 year old child kidnapped and raped" leads to everything getting emotional but having an emotional attachment to something doesn't tend to help matters either. The comment by me which was singled out above is how I view all, not just this one and it is not a presumption about anyone or anything so hopefully I've clarified that. You're perfectly free to have a different view in my opinion but I'll hope to try to put my nonsense to some better use. --

•wicke 21:27, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

No i think dismissing something about an 11 year old girl that was kidnapped and raped as " Missing white woman syndrome" is a statement that doesnt help. It was deeply offensive, and had this happened to a black or asian girl in the USA it would of got just as much attention. After the disgrace over if Kennedys death should be included i expected there to be some stupid rejections, i didnt expect it to become so offensive and get into a bloody race debate though. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:43, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree completely. Many objections to this news item don't concentrate on the facts of the case and instead focus on bias of Western media (which is not Wikipedia's to correct). This strongly reminds me of the Ted Kennedy incident. Objectors saying 'Western Bias, US centric' and little attention to the objective facts at hand.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:53, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No one said we have to correct everything. But not participating in bias is different from correcting bias. In Wiki-speak, it's Don't add sewage to the already polluted pond. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 21:55, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But that misses my point, which is in discussing whether media coverage of this is biased, we're not looking at the facts of this case which either make or don't make this newsworthy. The logic seems to be if she were white, it's not; if she were black, it's worthy. No consideration of how long she was kidnapped--18 years, that she was found after that long time, and that she bore two children in captivity. Those are the real facts that should be weighed in considering the notability of this case. Not where she is from or what race she is. On one thing I would agree is that this is more dramatic because it is a woman kidnapped rather than a male but certainly doesn't necessarily mean bias.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:04, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

lol i love how there is a page for everything on wiki -- Ashish-g55 21:57, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't dismissing, and there's no reason for it to be offended. It is widely known and reported that kidnaps and rapes of young girls get far more attention that kidnaps and rapes of boys or people of other races. That's the very reason this case has gotten so much attention; if it were about someone else, I would venture to guess that none of us would ever have heard about it. Likewise, I wasn't saying that you are racist; I was saying that the media, as we all know, is very biased. Perhaps you should actually read the article, and the sources therein, before making nonsensical comments like the one above. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 21:50, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What does any "disgrace over if Kennedys death" mean or have to do with this case... can you be more specific as I can't find anything in the article? --

•wicke 22:01, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

i think he means that because it took longer to put kennedy's death on main page as it was opposed by many that we all disgraced his death. damn if we think of it that way then within last 2 months we opposed like 30 different deaths of fairly important people. talk above a massive disgrace pile up. but ya i dont see the point of bringing that in this coversation. the arguments here have nothing to do with kennedy at all. -- Ashish-g55 22:06, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the poster meant that Wikipedia disgraced Ted Kennedy's death. I'm pretty sure it was a reference to a common opinion that the failure to post Ted Kennedy's death in ITN quickly (It took hours) reflected badly on Wikipedia. There's discussion on it in several places, including below in the August 26 section--you need to click 'show' at the Ted Kennedy portion. I admit that that incident brought me to these discussions and I am trying to stay involved.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:13, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Well seeing as what I have said appears to have been misinterpreted, all I can do is explain again my concern. This item was nominated with a clear focus on the fact that is was being widely reported in the media. My issue with this justification is that any biases inherent in the media reporting this are transfered through into Wikipedia. The whole white women issue has nothing do with implying racism, rather it highlights how media organisations are well known for there tendency to have biases in media coverage. The issue being raised is, if this happened exactly the same, but to a black girl, in say Nigeria (which is another large, English speaking country) would the media give it the same attention? If the answer to that question is no, then by attempting to justify the inclusion of this item based upon what the media do, you are inherently continuing a bias that exists in the media into Wikipedia, something that shouldn't be happening. If you remove all consideration for the breadth of coverage in the media at look at this completely objectively, the question is, what is the current encyclopaedic value of this kidnapping over any other kidnapping? --Daviessimo (talk) 22:16, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Media attention is one but not the only reason this has been nominated. There's also the unusual specifics of the crime. Some objectors to this are focusing solely on the possibility that media attention is a result of Western bias IMO. OK, it's a real issue, but based on conversations I've followed the last week here there seems to be a near blanket over any news item that has a hint of Western bias or US centrism.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:23, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well anyway, I wasn't online for any of that so am not fully familiar with what went on and anyone who hasn't witnessed it is thereby, I imagine, left wondering who or what "if kennedy" is or was when they're trying to make sense of this one. But I'd be concerned by the "common opinion" that something should be posted immediately and that it would be a disgrace that it should take hours. ITNs are regularly posted hours and days after they occur and that sort of immediate recklessness had Michael Jackson posted as dead before it was certain and then changed to "reported dead" on the Main Page instead of being removed thus contradicting the whole process. The same sort of recklessness led to something being posted on changes in the Chinese language recently, something which later proved to be inaccurate. It is not an attack on those who did it but why is there a "common opinion" that one should be rushed? So I would ask, on this and any nomination, why the rush? Is it not better to be certain and consistent rather than to respond to our emotions, e.g. "my favourite singer/politician has died" or "a child was raped" and demand it be posted without delay because the TV is bombarding you with extreme images? Why is it justifiable to post some nominations immediately when most must wait? But Daviessimo makes a good point above—how is this encyclopedic? It may very well be but nobody (I think) has explained how yet. --

•wicke 22:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

I agree with all of the above. This isn't just about media bias; it's about whether this is encyclopedic, appropriate, and important. No one doubts that the story is interesting. But ITN, as far as I know, is generally only for things that have a major impact on something in the world: major political changes and wars, major natural disasters, major events in sport or entertainment (such as Usain Bolt's WR that's on the main page right now) that affect lots of people. This story, while interesting, doesn't really have any major effect on the world, as far as I can tell. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 22:50, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How does Usain Bolt's record qualify as having a major effect on the world? It's interesting...but has no major impact on anything. And yet, there it is. That's the disconnect and the sure sign that something else is going on other than ITN guidelines. RxS (talk) 23:10, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's an exact thought I had earlier. I think nearly every item reported in ITN could be argued as having little impact on most people in the world. Admittedly, this makes choosing what is significant news difficult. I appreciate the need to try to be unbiased. In any case, IMO in the ITN debates I have witnessed recently there is a tendency to apply a more stringent test on events that are US based or Western based than events elsewhere, in the attempt to avoid US or Western bias. I would guess that if the same kidnapping had happened in India or Nigeria and ITN editors were aware of it, it would be posted without any accusations of bias.--Johnsemlak (talk) 23:33, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@Johnsemlak did u ever think maybe its the opposite? that any opposes to a western item has people accusing opposers of having some anti-US agenda as a way of justifying the item. this item as stated many times above has nothing to do with US bias. this is a global problem with media where a small group getting kidnapped is reported heavily. and all arguments above state that wikipedia should be avoiding that. also candlewicke is right. just last week we had 6 items waiting for 2 days. i dont understand why things need to be posted instantly without proper consensus,updates or even sometimes confirmation of the actual event. -- Ashish-g55 22:52, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree there isn't a rush on this particular piece. It could use further debate. It's also a developing news item. The Ted Kennedy issue was a different matter as there was certainly no debate that he was actually dead. But on this topic, I think it's simply important to weigh the facts of this case. Also, you saying that the 'global problem with the nedia', while possibly true, is not a NPOV--it's highly subjective. I would agree with the Davidissimo that it's hard to imagine a scenario like this happening in Nigeria and getting reported by western media, but there are many reasons for that (how feasible is it to report in Nigeria where it's dangerous for westerners and there are political obstacles). But that shouldn't mean that we ignore this item. I'll repeat that I think it's a highly unusual crime that lasted a long period of time, comparable to the Fritzl case (which I'm still astounded was not an ITN news piece--that's a major failure. Ok, we can't go back and correct it but using it as an argument against reporting this event is very unreasonable). --Johnsemlak (talk) 23:10, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See here under 18 March (beneath Natasha Richardson and, by that topic's standards, a quite short discussion on some sport or another) for Fritzl's trial and its several opposes—including a "strong no". That's why the verdict wasn't posted. --

•wicke 23:55, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Thanks for the link. That said, that was when he was convicted. The bigger event was when the news surfaced in the first place.--Johnsemlak (talk) 00:19, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As long as we're comparing cases here, I'll repeat my question from above (it was not rhetorical): How does Usain Bolt's record qualify as having a major effect on the world? What beyond being interesting justifies it? RxS (talk) 00:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A large world record in a major sporting event is far more newsworthy than this because it sets a new bar that people will be talking about and comparing things to for years to come. It may be the case that this sport is something you are not very interested in, but the fact of the matter is that a record like this still is influential. Something like the Dugard story, though, is far less influential, and is little more than an interesting story. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 03:53, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That record has been broken 3 times in the last year and 6 times in the last 10 years. How influential can it be? The Dugard story will affect how police follow-up on kidnappings, child safety and how sex offenders are treated/tracked for the long term...it's already starting. RxS (talk) 20:40, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am not even sure i want to explain this but i will give it a shot. When posting sports events effect and interest are pretty much same thing... i really thought everyone knew that. i dont really have an example of a sport event having "major effect" on people. Sports are all about interest. The 100m is nicknamed fastest man in world so whenever anyone breaks that record its a very BIG deal. -- Ashish-g55 01:23, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if there was to be a suggestion of no more sports on ITN. Since they don't usually affect very many people. But I imagine some people would be displeased. To put it mildly. --

•wicke 02:10, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

lol howard below will be displeased for sure. -- Ashish-g55 02:59, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lemme put it mildly: No effing way. Not enough international importance nor coverage. –Howard the Duck 02:37, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's lot's of international coverage, please read this section for examples and links. And as should be obvious from what is consistantly included, international importance is not a necessary component. RxS (talk) 03:12, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On the CNN.com (the international edition) this isn't the top story. I'd want us to quit on the roll coll of links and focus the amount of coverage it is getting from the media, not just the number of media outlets that have an article on this. –Howard the Duck 03:16, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Who in the world ever claimed that it was the top story? Who cares how a single outlet treats it? The amount of coverage worldwide is considerable. Both straight news and followup. The media is all over this story, both in terms of numbers and depth. I understand that you don't want this included, but your logic doesn't hold up at all. RxS (talk) 20:32, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note that ITN says "international importance or interest." I'm measuring "international importance or interest" by the importance the media is giving the story, in my case, I measure it if it is mentioned prominently on a website, or it appears as a headline in a newspaper, or it is the first one mentioned in a TV news report, etc. I've come to quit the roll call of links that has been used before here since it doesn't represent that "international importance or interest" signifies. If we'd follow by these number of links rule, A LOT of stories will get be "international importance or interest", most of them will be U.S. stories and you people won't like that. –Howard the Duck 12:53, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - Huge story that is a nice commentary on violence against women in a major developed country. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:53, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • No offense intended, but how is this story a commentary on 'violence against women' in general? It's an isolated incident, committed by a criminal, condemned by society, and clearly extraordinary (as evidenced by the fact that people are so interested in it)—doesn't seem like a commentary on this society or country in general, it's just one event. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 03:55, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • None taken. It's just a nice microcosm that illustrates a larger issue. I'm new here, but aren't most ITN things about one event? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:58, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • What I was trying to say is, I don't see how this illustrates a larger issue. Does the article say anything about how this incident sheds light on American society, or on how big an issue kidnappings are, or anything else like that? rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 07:32, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose I don't wish to be harsh here, and I don't personally doubt,nor do I deny the horrific nature of what is said to have happened, but at the moment all there is is an allegation. The only thing that we know incontrovertibly is that a person who was reported missing 18 years ago has been found. Let the process of law take place, then, if the story is still in the public eye, we might report it. It is a well established principle of ITN that we report the outcome of legal cases, not their instigation. Kevin McE (talk) 09:25, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Support - Since it's pretty clear from recent event that ITN is a busted process that seems to be out of whack with the rest of wikipedia - who's to say that still holds true? --Cameron Scott (talk) 10:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Does that mean all arguments against can be ignored (since they might no longer apply) and just post whatever is nominated even if it is an allegation or might turn out not to be true? --

•wicke 20:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

TheStar. i find this interesting. just noticed as top news on star today. -- Ashish-g55 00:40, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder does this count for much (it is in the news at regular intervals, so much so that they haven't bothered to explain who she is in the first sentence). --

•wicke 18:32, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Oppose. Perhaps 100 million women are missing from the world. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:38, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

She's not missing. RxS (talk) 23:33, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Who? I think one of them is. :-o --

•wicke 00:30, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Hm... according to the Bangkok Post article, the violence began on August 8 and much of the refugee movement was 8–12, so maybe it's a bit old... on the other hand, though, none of this seems to have been widely reported until Aug 26–7. I'll try to scour the articles some more to see if there's been any new development or anything, or if the media has just be slow on the uptake... rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 15:50, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(out) I've made an article now, and here's a blurb:

• China
  .

rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 18:21, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Single Molecule Picture

The detailed chemical structure of a single molecule has been imaged for the first time. Pretty cool and encyclopedic. i guess Molecule or some sort of atomic imaging page could be updated if there isnt a page for this already somewhere. what do u guys think. Images are right here. They are on flickr and IBM states as long as a simple credit is given it is free so i believe its suitable for main page too. -- Ashish-g55 13:00, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - very interesting and encyclopedic, would fit nicely and give an intriguing link for folks to follow to some areas that might not necessarily be regularly seen in ITN. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:47, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Where does IBM say the images are free? The pictures themselves are tagged as "all rights reserved", and I don't see any mention of use stuff on the group's flickr profile. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 15:50, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

here it says "Each use should be accompanied by the credit line and notice, Courtesy of IBM Research - Zurich. Unauthorized use not permitted. Copying of images for further distribution or commercial use is prohibited without the express written consent of IBM." so if u put that credit and it is non-commercial it can be used. i am not positive about further distribution remark though... maybe someone else can comment on this. but yes the image is not in public domain though so now i am not sure if it will be allowed on main page. although its image of a molecule... u would think IBM wants it to be made known as long as it was credited to IBM. -- Ashish-g55 18:02, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It can't. We require that the image be completely free from restrictions on re-use ("Images which are listed as for non-commercial use only, by permission, or which restrict derivatives are unsuitable for Wikipedia and will be deleted on sight, unless they are used under fair use. from Wikipedia:Image use policy). It is still a good candidate for ITN though and I support it - Dumelow (talk) 18:13, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am pretty sure this would qualify under fair use but we have this weird no fair use image policy just for main page. sigh. this is one of those images that everyone should see, its quite amazing really. -- Ashish-g55 18:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support since it is encyclopedic and this is an encyclopedia after all. --

•wicke 19:56, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Well i am guessing the article to update would be

IBM Zurich Research Laboratory... I am going to try and update the microscope one soon as the other one got the soapbox tag on it. -- Ashish-g55 20:11, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

after reading more i dont think i wanna edit the article lol. not qualified enough to talk about AFMs. i dropped a note and hopefully this will get updated and posted within a couple days. -- Ashish-g55 20:46, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would support inclusion if an article is updated. The AFM article would be the place, which need a description of the CO attachment process. Unfortunately I don't have access to the Science article atm. Modest Genius ^talk 15:50, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Moldovan parliament

• Having already
  early parliamentary election the Moldovan parliament is scheduled to meet again to elect a president sometime this month. If it fails incumbent Vladimir Voronin will remain president until yet more elections next year - Dumelow (talk) 11:58, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

The first attempt to elect (the parliament has three attempts max) will be made on 28 August - Dumelow (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is notable, interesting and informative. Should be added when there are developments, i see most recent news from AP 20 mins ago is they have elected a speaker. [5] BritishWatcher (talk) 14:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Space Shuttle Discovery (STS-128)

• microgravity. This will be Discovery's 37th flight and the 128th shuttle mission. RxS (talk) 04:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

First Friday attempt scrubbed, pointed toward 2nd late Friday launch. RxS (talk) 19:47, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Id support the launch (when it happens) being added, is very notable and space launches always get mass media attention from around the world. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Second that...especially since the shuttle program is winding down. --Smashville^talk 20:02, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reading Rainbow

• Reading Rainbow is already updated with the information on its 26-year run ending today and that it's the third longest-running kids show on PBS. --fmmarianicolon | Talk 14:24, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose I doubt this has gained much media attention (apart from coverage by PBS itself). I may be reading the intro to that article wrong but it doesnt make sense to me. "Reading Rainbow is an American children's television series aired by PBS from June 6, 1983 until November 10, 2006, that encourages reading among children. The show will cease airing on PBS on Friday, August 28, 2009 after 26 years on the air." What happened on November 10 2006? BritishWatcher (talk) 14:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

would have supported if it was longest. 3rd longest is a lot less appealing. -- Ashish-g55 15:08, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose If it were Sesame Street I'd agree but this is not on the same level. I imagine there isn't precedent for what TV show cancellations are sufficiently newsworthy for ITN.--Johnsemlak (talk) 15:36, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. From what I gather from the article, the show supposedly last aired on November 10, 2006. Is it possible today was just the day they stuck a fork in it? --Smashville^talk 18:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• A link to which PBS might have helped avoid me end up
  •wicke 20:07, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

August 27

August 27, 2009 (2009-08-27) (Thursday)

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• history
• watch

• English youth Michael Perham, aged 17 years, 5 months, becomes the youngest person to complete a solo circumnavigation of the world by sailboat, breaking the previous record by two months. (Reuters)
• South African President Jacob Zuma is to visit Zimbabwe for talks on the power-sharing government. (The Herald) (IOL) (AFP)
• Typhoon Morakot. (Taiwan News) (Times South Africa)^{[permanent dead link]} (Al Jazeera) (Xinhua)
• Muslims protested the proposed law. (BBC) (AFP)
• The
  Aboriginal areas is "discriminatory". (The Australian) (Xinhua) (BBC)
• Colombia files a complaint about Venezuela with the Organization of American States, saying the country has been interfering in its domestic affairs. (MercoPress) (BBC)
• Thousands of people flee fighting between
  Burma. (Bangkok Post) (AFP) (Australia Network News)
• The head of the
  joint United Nations–African Union force in Darfur, Martin Agwai, says the war in the region is over and is now only suffering low-level disputes. (BBC) (Reuters)
• Tamils. (The Guardian) (CNN) (SLBC)
• South Korea proposes regular reunions of families separated by the Korean War to North Korea. (Yonhap) (Times of India) (Associated Press)
• Judges at the Supreme Court of India agree to make their financial assets public. (BBC) (Press Trust of India)
• The Standing Committee of the National People's Congress passes its first law on the People's Armed Police, giving it statutory authority to respond to riots, terrorist attacks or other emergencies. (China Daily) (IOL) (The New York Times)
• S-400 anti-missile defence system close to its border with North Korea. (The Guardian) (Tehran Times)
• A
  suicide bomber hits a Pakistani security checkpoint at the main border crossing for convoys ferrying NATO supplies into Afghanistan, killing at least 18 border guards. (MSNBC)

ITN candidates for August 27

Death

• December 2005 dies, aged 59, of lung cancer in Iran. (BBC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by AndrewRT (talk • contribs
  )

since death criteria isnt about head of state for politicians anymore i think this qualifies. he seems to have had fair amount of influence in iraq. support after a little more expansion. -- Ashish-g55 21:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - Notable, widely reported and helps with the diversity agenda. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as I can't find any good reason to oppose this if it is expanded. --
  •wicke 21:40, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

End of the Darfur war

• The
  Ч) 15:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Support. This conflict has generated major international attention, even if its smoldering finish has not attracted much attention. Joshdboz (talk) 16:02, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support also. However, the wording needs to be carefully selected because there remains ongoing fighting between rival groups on a smaller scale and, as such, we don't want to imply that all fighting has ceased --Daviessimo (talk) 16:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe appending "though smaller clashes between rival forces continues" would be a way to handle that? Tony Fox (arf!) 16:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also support, but perhaps word it as "declared over" or something of that nature in order to cover the smaller skirmishes. --Smashville^talk 16:19, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, to borrow from Bush's Mission Accomplished: "Major combat/conflict/fighting in the

UN." -- Joshdboz (talk) 16:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Support--Johnsemlak (talk) 18:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose I was going to support this as it seems very notable, but this is just a military leaders opinion, in the very article its challenged as unhelpful by an analyst. To put on the front page the war is over or even "effectively over" as described in the article would be misleading and confusing. Also i cant find other coverage of this statement, things seem to be progressing but not enough yet if violence is on going still and no sign of a peace deal. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose: Too Darfur-centric. Too much coverage of Darfur as is. seicer | talk | contribs 19:05, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is that a joke? It has been months since Darfur has even been suggested on ITN/C. I support, but agree that it shouldn't try to say the fighting is completely over. Therequiembellishere (talk) 19:44, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, yes it is (in reply to the stupid "US-centric" comments made below), but I do oppose because the issue has not been resolved, noted in the article and in the comments preceding mine. seicer | talk | contribs 19:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Young sailor

• Mike Perham, 17, becomes the youngest person to sail single-handedly around the world.

  Article needs updating.

  Wait until he actually finishes (later today).

  News results — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 06:15, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest I'm not sure about this. As far as I'm aware, we didn't put up Zac Sunderland when he broke the record not all that long ago. Also the governing body of sailing no longer recognise youngest sailor as a record so this record is only going to included in the Guiness book of records --Daviessimo (talk) 07:24, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - A good accomplishment but the same could be said for many records broken every day. Would be a good item for an "On this day" next year to mark his success. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:25, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Unless he loses it before then. --
  •wicke 18:37, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Science

• Pokhran-II not fully successful: Scientist.

[6].

Support, especially if the "variety of sanctions against India by a number of major states" from the article is true. However, the article requires some work on its references and lack of them. --

•wicke 21:48, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

August 26

August 26, 2009 (2009-08-26) (Wednesday)

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• history
• watch

• brain cancer. (New York Times)
• CIA prison for al-Qaeda suspects. (BBC)
  .
• The government of Moldova announces that it will stand down before the opening of parliament on 28 August. (BBC)
• French police uncover a large cache of weapons and explosives belonging to terrorist group ETA. (BBC)
• The
  opposition protests were backed by foreign countries. (AFP) (Press TV) (BBC)
• Japan's exports fall by 36.5% as demand falls. (Bloomberg) (Reuters)
• North and South Korea resume talks on allowing families divided since the Korean War to begin meeting again, for the first time in two years. (Xinhua) (Yonhap)
• Zimbabwe denies reports that President Robert Mugabe suffered a health scare. (The Guardian) (Zim Online) (Daily Nation)
• Kidnapping of Jaycee Dugard
  • Jaycee Dugard, who disappeared in 1991, is found alive after 18 years and is reunited with her family. (Record Net)

ITN candidates for August 26

Ted Kennedy

• Deserted Cities 07:04, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Further comment should be taken to death criteria page or ANI

(taken from talk:Main Page[7]) Should be on the news section 77.234.159.97 (talk) 07:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] (taken from talk:Main Page[8])I would agree especially since Les Paul's and Corazon Aquino's deaths were on there. Spiderone 07:45, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] OK, this is where we see this blind US-centricism creeping in again. You can't really compare Kennedy to Les Paul (who was one of, if not the most important pioneer of 20th century music - remember without Les Paul there is no Beatles et al.) or Aquino (who was a former head of state). What makes Ted Kennedy more notable than any of the other 99 US senators? What makes a US Senator as important as a former Philippine head of state or nobel prize winning South Korean president? The only response that evers seems to come up, is because they are American and the US is apparently the centre of the universe, lord of all nations etc etc. Unless they have had a major impact on politics then political deaths should be reserved for current and former political leaders. For that reason I'm going to oppose --Daviessimo (talk) 08:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] I am going to support because the loss of Ted Kennedy means the US Senate no longer has a filibuster Democratic block and won't for months due to Massachusetts laws that require a certain downtime before another senator is elected. This could have huge implications with the US health care bill that is currently being considered. While not world news, it will definitely have ramifications in the US. And honestly, I've never even heard of Les Paul, no offense. I also am not a huge fan of music. –Darius von Whaleyland, Great Khan of the Barbarian Horde 08:51, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Oppose. If it were any other country...  Cargoking  talk  08:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Although... it has had a lot of international attention [9].  Cargoking  talk  09:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] He was much more notable than most of the Senators. He was presented with both Honorary Knighthood by QEII and Merit of Honor in Chile. Its also currently the lead story on BBC, ABC (Australia), Al-Jazeera, AFP, La Repubblica, plus (I'd assume) many more. Deserted Cities 09:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] The update is way too short.  Cargoking  talk  09:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] How much of an update is needed? Deserted Cities 09:27, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] A solid paragraph or two (I think). " the traditional cutoff for 'enough' has been around three complete, referenced and well-formed paragraphs.", from WP:ITNMP  Cargoking  talk  09:31, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Support. Ted Kennedy is obviously internationally notable, the sources from Deserted Cities say it all. This is no ordinary Senator. (Note that I opposed putting up Al Franken's seating, and that's from my home state.) I actually think this will help the health care bill by galvanizing its supporters... masterka 09:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Oppose US-centric, non-leader --Stephen 09:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] (←) He need not be a leader per Deserted Cities 09:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Oppose. I don't think all the criteria are met here. --Tone 10:14, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Why not? According to the death criteria, only one of the three must be met. He was a Senator, thus a high-ranking official. His impact speaks for itself. Deserted Cities 10:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] As I said before, if it were any other country.  Cargoking  talk  10:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Support. But it's not. This is the last of the Kennedy brothers who just died. We could of course discuss this for a week or so, then put it up in the "In the news" section, and make complete and utter fools of ourselves. Lampman (talk) 10:47, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] How about: brain cancer. --Hapsala (talk) 11:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Lampman, do you support US centralism? US centralism is an increasingly growing problem.  Cargoking  talk  11:22, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Ted Kennedy was not just a senator. He's been one of the highest-profile figures in American politics for 45 years. Your cries of US-centrism are meaningless; I propose there's a bias towards meaningless pap (cricket games and beauty pageants) and we should counter this bias with stories of political and economic significance. Noisalt (talk) 11:57, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Strong support. No. 1 topic in almost all countries around the world, for example BBC News, Tagesschau.de, Le Monde. --bender235 (talk) 12:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Strong support. Influential figure, last of his generation in a well-known dynasty, familiar name worldwide. Radagast (talk) 12:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] He was without a doubt the most influenful United States Senator of the past 50 years. Front page in almost every newspaper in the world explains it all. Not every American politician gets that treatment. Support Secret account 12:19, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] reaction from politicians from around the world Secret account 12:22, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] OK look, people keep using the argument that it is headline news across the world as an argument for this to go up, but with deaths this is not a valid measurement of importance. Like I've said a hundred times before a person is only notable for what they have done, not who they are - like I always say, apply the Tim Berners-Lee test - most people have never heard of him, but no-one can ever doubt the importance he has had in modern history. Yes Ted Kennedy is well known, but this is because of who he is and not because as a senator he has changed the face of American politics. Also I would just like to highlight a problematic fallacy with some of the argument which are claiming that the story is headline news around the world. I know from how the BBC works that if you live outside the UK, when you visit the BBC website you are taken to the BBC World home page and not the proper BBC homepage (which is .co.uk not .com) The top story on the proper BBC is not this story but rather a story relating the violence between West Ham and Millwall fans last night. I suspect the same is the case for other websites around the world and, as such, just because what you see is one thing, doesn't mean that is what people in the country in question are seeing --Daviessimo (talk) 12:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Well, the Times of London currently has Kennedy's death as the lead story in it's UK edition, or at least that's what I'm seeing sitting in Russia. Also, I would think that if the BBC Global website has it as the lead story, that would be stronger grounds than the UK version. The BBC Global site is global in outreach, therefore more relevant to what is in ITN than the UK version.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:37, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] We have quite a simple criteria with a politician death (does not matter if it is stated somewhere or not). We post either head of state or former head of state. As i see it kennedy was neither and i dont remember (or have read) him having a worldwide impact to make an exception. strong oppose. we would fill the ITN with deaths everyday otherwise. but it doesnt really matter when it comes to US news. some admin always seems to post it either way -- Ashish-g55 13:04, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] lol this is hilarious. while i was typing the above some admin posted it. in what world is all of the above a proper consensus... -- Ashish-g55 13:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Posted for better or for worse. I'm personally on the fence about whether this is an appropriate addition, leaning on oppose, but the death criteria appears to permit it, even if it shouldn't have. -- tariqabjotu 13:11, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Death criteria also does not state that it is ok to post a US senator where as not ok to post Canadian primeres, Indian chief of states etc etc. We quite literally expanded the field for US deaths by 99 people based on BBC posting it on their front page. As Daviessimo just said they had Millwall story last night on front page... we dont post every front page news because that is not our criteria. we are not a news source. we should be trying to remove as much bias from ITN as we can not add more by expanding a US only death field... this is more US centric in my opinion than Sonia Sotomayer making it on ITN like 3 times for same news story. -- Ashish-g55 13:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] "We quite literally expanded the field for US deaths by 99 people based on BBC posting it on their front page." I don't think that's what happened. -- tariqabjotu 13:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] if this stayed up then yes we did. at next senator death people will come and show us the diff for this addition. and there is absolutely nothing that can be done then since logically if u post this one u will have to post others too. -- Ashish-g55 14:10, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Um... no, not really, but okay... -- tariqabjotu 14:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] i know what u mean but i only speak from experience. too many items get posted because we posted the last one. there will never be a good enough reason to not post the next one if we post this. -- Ashish-g55 14:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] (←)Strong OpposeThis is happening time and again. Every time anything happens in the US, its popped up in ITN. Just because all the news website cover this doesn't make it ITN worthy - the sheer fact that anything is US is closely followed by all major news websites (some of them are even from the US) is not an excuse. All the factors mentioned above: Kennedy Family, Health Bill, Majority in the US Senate etc., are issues which mean ZILCH in the rest of the world. The criteria specifically says that a death can be added to ITN only if there is consensus in the group. With so many oppositions, we definitely don't have a consensus. Admin: Please remove the posting from the ITN till a consensus is reached. Again, remember (as the critiera states) we are not a news website. Its not mandatory that we need to be quick posting stuff. -Natrajdr (talk) 14:04, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Every major international news source, including many blogs, have this news on it. Everything from NPR to FOX to the BBC have it as their top headline, with images. Also see 6000+ results on Google News and Google News top stories. No-brainer Support. Gosox5555 (talk) 14:11, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Support INT debates seem to attract both those too America-centric and those too America-paranoid. There's one reason that this story can be found on the front pages of most major news sites around the world, and that's because the Kennedy mystique is not limited to the US by any means. (As for international coverage, this is one of the top stories on Times of India and Xinhua) Joshdboz (talk) 14:12, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Well, for my 10 cents, I would have opposed. I thank Wikipedia for showing that Kennedy had died, as I have long been interested in his life and Wikipedia's information spurned me to turn on the TV and learn more, but he is a US senator. An important senator, yes, but he's not had a great worldwide impact in what he did during his life. I will go so far as to say I believe some US-centricism is behind the posting of Kennedy's death; I find it hard to believe something on the death of talk) 14:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Oppose. Not in a major office, nor has he ever been, and the death was hardly unexpected. No major ramifications either. Modest Genius talk 14:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] The only correct thing you said is that the death was not unexpected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.37.216.66 (talk • contribs) 18:46, 26 August 2009 US Senator is not a major office of state, regardless of how long he held it. I was referring to positions such as head of state, head of government, or in charge of a major government ministry (eg foreign minister, treasury minister). Ted Kennedy never held any of those; he was an important legislator, but there are many of those, in many countries. Modest Genius talk 19:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Strong Support Highly infulential and clearly world-famous statesman and historical figure (in both US and Irish politics, at the very least). Clearly Wikipedia has a vocal anti-US minority who wants to silence any US stories on the front page, but in this case the man is clearly an icon far beyond the borders of his state. It is quite silly to see "In The News" not featuring a story on which President Obama is to address the nation. 80.193.130.5 (talk) 14:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Strong Support. I find this a ridiculous debate. Ted Kennedy is clearly a interntionally notable person. Posting it does not mean we have to put any US senator's death. His death is the lead story in just about every major news outlet of note (compared with the Ashes, which was not). Add nearly all Russian news media to the list of media that are covering this. I teach at a British school in Russia and my British and Russian colleagues informed me that Ted was dead right when it happened. This is a major international news item--end of story.--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Why does it take so long to add this? It seems like it just turns out as User:Lampman said: if we discuss this for a week, we're going to make ourselfs utter fools. --bender235 (talk) 15:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Actually, it was added a few hours ago. However, after a short while being up, it was removed on account of there not actually being a consensus here to add it. I suspect, seeing how this discussion is going, that no consensus will be reached to put it up. There's just too much opposition. talk) 15:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Oppose. Too US-centric. Non-notable politician. The only reason this is getting so much attention in Anglophone media is because the man was American. Offliner (talk) 15:15, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] If he is non-notable would you care to start the AfD? Joshdboz (talk) 16:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Cheeky, Joshdboz. :) talk) 16:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Support One of the most prolific and longest-serving senators in U.S. history; his death has made international headlines, so this isn't U.S.-centric. It appears as though in trying to avoid a U.S. bias, ITN is actually becoming biased against U.S. topics. Cheers, Rai•me 15:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Strong Support. As has been mentioned above, the largest significance that January of next year, barring a change in Massachusetts law to allow a temporary appointment until after the special election. This means that the healthcare reform legislation currently dominating the national discussion in the U.S. will likely be on hold until then. This alone would probably be notable enough for ITN. Senator Franken's belated election victory was enough to make ITN if I recall, largely due to its supermajority implications, so I don't see why the loss of that supermajority would be any less noteworthy. The fact that Senator Kennedy was the last of a terrifically important dynasty in American politics, was universally recognized as being one of the most effective United States Senators in the Twentieth Century, and was a highly controversial figure in American politics due to his personal life as much as his political positions (he is invoked as a bogeyman by the right as much as, if not more than, he is invoked as a hero by the left), makes this a no-brainer. Here's a thought on a blurb: Caucus's filibuster-proof supermajority of 60 seats in the Senate. 69.135.191.49 (talk) 16:59, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Out of curiosity, why is the loss of the Democratic super-majority of any interest to the world? Wikipedia caters to the world, not just to an American audience. talk) 17:17, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Extremely strong 'death to America' oppose. Come on, why are we discussing this? We all hate the US. We want more British-centric stuff on ITN. When is the next rugby match that we can put on ITN? Nutmegger (talk) 17:12, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Strong Support What's with all the crazy anti-americanism? This is a wildly internationally notable individual, easily the most famous US senator, both for his incredibly wide-ranging legislative accomplishments (he is one of the world's most accomplished legislators) and his incredibly famous family. His immigration reforms of 1965 reshaped more than just America forever. His death fundamentally alters the composition of the legislature of the United States of America. This is rightfully one of the top news stories around the world today. It is sad to see anti-Americanism is more important than encyclopedic judgment at Wikipedia. There's 347 Google News results for Ted Kennedy in France, 589 in Spain, and only 525 in the UK. This is not a lot when compared to the 11,805 in the US. This suggests to me that this does not have much worldwide impact or interest. (I know Google isn't an entirely reliable indicator, but it can be used as a small barometer). As further evidence, Les Paul gets 8,472 French hits—a massive increase compared to Kennedy. This, as well as the reasons given above, causes me to oppose the inclusion of this item. Dendodge T\C 17:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Les Paul's death was noted basically nowhere, while Kennedy's death is the No. 1 topic around the globe. I am from Germany, and Kennedy's death is reported as No. 1 news in every TV channel. --bender235 (talk) 17:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] I just did a search of Ted Kennedy at Google news UK and got over 9500 hits. Same with Google News Australia. Over 1000 hits (less, but a lot) at Google Noticias Mexico.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:59, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Just for everyone who are arguing about super majority or whatever it is called. i just want to know if we should expect another item when they do get super majority again (which they just recieved after Al franken who did go up on ITN). or if they lose it again due to some other death or resignation then again when they regain it? because i really thought we used to only put head of state getting elected. Im sorry if it sounds "anti-american" but it seems we put up any changes in US government no matter what they are (super majority gain, loss, supreme court nominee, supreme court elect, senator elect etc etc). If this isnt US centric bias then i dont know what is. AND PLEASE stop showing google hits as they will not be a factor taken into account, never have before and never will. we are not google or news service. -- Ashish-g55 18:01, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] By the way, welcome to all these newcomers. In my few months on this page, have I seen such an avalanche of fresh contributors.  Cargoking  talk  18:15, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Just adding to the list of Western Euroepan outlets that give this extensive coverage: TV4[18] as well. That's substantial coverage with multiple articles in just about every single major Swedish outlet, including public service channels. Peter Isotalo 18:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] I think if he were from any other country, any person who generated this much news coverage would by already posted in ITN without controversy. --Johnsemlak (talk) 18:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] No doubt about it. I'd never thought I'd be saying this, but I'm actually taken aback by the baseness of the anti-Americanism displayed here. The amount of inflammable comments and nigh-on uncivil cherry picking is downright embarrassing. I can't find a single oppose that is even remotely relevant to the criteria. Everything is either misrepresentation or "too much America". Maybe this is all just because the wrong people woke up on the wrong side of the bed on the wrong day, but it seems to me as if ITN is inherently incapable of handling deaths in any consistent manner. Peter Isotalo 19:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Strong support Seriously. Not having this on the main page and instead having beauty pageant contestants and cricket matches while every other news organization has been reporting this all day makes Wikinews, and Wikipedia by extension, look like a joke. Chuthya (talk) 18:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] ITN is not wikinews. and it is on front page first article on wikinews... -- Ashish-g55 18:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] That better? This event satisfies critera 1 and 2 of recent deaths, and arguably even criteria 2. This whole debate has been ridiculous. It shouldn't take the better part of a day to get this on the ITN section! Chuthya (talk) 19:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] (a) the deceased was in a high ranking office of power at the time of death, ->>> He was not head of state. which is what a politicians high rank needs to be for ITN. (b) the deceased was a key figure in their field of expertise, and died unexpectedly or tragically, ->>>> died of brain cancer at age 77. The field being politician he was not head of state. (c) the death has a major international impact that affects current events. The modification or creation of multiple articles to take into account the ramifications of a death is a sign that it meets the third criterion. ->>>>> Google hits does not qualify neither does front page of news sources. thats what wikinews is for. So by my count it fails to meet any criteria. -- Ashish-g55 19:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Nothing in the ITN Critera on Deaths states that it has to be a head of state. US Senator is one of the highest levels of power in US politics. Denying this fact displays a gross misunderstanding of the US political system. Chuthya (talk) 20:08, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Support Opposing because it's US-centric is just plain stupid, if we have a British or any other thing you almost never see, Oppose, too "british-centric". Kennedy was a major figure and the last living brother (?) of JFK thus he made an American impact, not sure how worldwide though.--Giants27 (c|s) 18:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Giants, what you have unwittengly done is highlight the US centricism that is so talked about in this discussion. You support the item because he had an impact in the US, irrelevant of his impact internationally. For someone to be notable enough to go on ITN they have to had a major impact on their field internationally. In political terms that sort of importance is reserved only for heads of state and political leaders and Kennedy was neither. Also, when will people understand the ITN is not a news service - it is not our responsibility to follow what CNN or the BBC or Le Monde do. Given that 99% of the time the top stories on these websites are no good for ITN (and we subsequently don't blindly follow them), why is it that this is what people are saying we should be doing now? --Daviessimo (talk) 19:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Kennedy not a political leader? You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. ++Lar: t/c 20:10, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] No, I know exactly what I'm talking about. In countries that have monarchies the political leader (usually a Prime Minister) is not the head of state. Thus, in politics a notable death can either be the head of state (if the country is a republic) or a political leader (usually a PM in a constitutional monarchy). But of course disregarding WP:CIV and making a personal attack is more fun I suppose --Daviessimo (talk) 20:29, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Whoa Nelly! Sorry to butt in, but I sense some sort of a clash emerging him which will not leave both parties with big smiles. I agree, Daviessimo, that Lar could have phrased better than "You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about", but I'm sure he meant no personal attack and just got a bit carried away. Truce? talk) 20:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] If what is meant was "head of government" (PM, or head of state) that's what should have been said. But anyone who says Kennedy wasn't a political leader (in the commonly accepted meaning of the term, someone who has great influence in politics in a given country) of the US really doesn't know what they're talking about. It's no sin to be ignorant, and it's not a personal attack to point out ignorance, if in so doing, enlightenment will follow. Let us hope for that, because what I see here is a lot of insularity and ownership... perhaps it's a good thing that a major event brought some non regulars here to see exactly what sort of arguments are advanced... hopefully not on a regular basis. ++Lar: t/c 20:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Support. The absence of Senator Kennedy from the front page is a glaring omission that has been troubling me all day, and I am frankly considering IAR'ing this and posting it within the next few minutes. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] IAR on Main page is a really bad idea. Please, first read the comments of people who run ITN every day. --Tone 19:31, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] read the comments of people who run ITN every day OWN much? Thatcher 19:53, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] This is not the case. ITN has some guidelines and ITN people are more familiar with them. That's it. Also, TFA and DYK have guidelines. And several people have expressed their opinions why in this case the guidelines are not met. --Tone 19:59, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] As far as I can tell pretty much everyone opposing is doing an IAR by making highly imaginative interpretations of the death criteria or ignoring them altogether. Peter Isotalo 19:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] I don't think I've ever seriously IAR'd in my three years here, but this seems like a fine place to start. The absence of this item from the mainpage today is indefensible. Any concerns about US-centricity are undercut by the fact that no other US-based items are listed on ITN right now. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Strong Support Per above reasons. U.S.-centric should not be a valid argument for every news item brought up. Kennedy is just as notable as Les Paul, who was listed for days. talk) 19:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] oppose - it's far more important that we have the death of a Taliban leader and the crowning of this year's Miss whatever on the front page then the death of some US Senator. So what if he was brother of someone many consider their favorite US president, a perennial shadow candidate for president himself, scion of one of the leading political families of the east, sponsor of over 500 bils that made it into law and the third longest sitting US senator, the Ashes series in cricket is MUCH more important than that. ++Lar: t/c 19:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Not every US senator is important enough to be listed on ITN, I suppose, but this is frickin Ted Kennedy. He was a significant liberal voice in the Senate for 50 years. He killed someone and got away with it. He ran for President. Before his death he was the leading voice for health care reform which could affect 1/6th of the US economy. He passed and Overrode Ronald Regan's veto of the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986 (world-wide significance?) He was Knighted! Another blow against Wikipedia as a serious and credible information source. Thatcher 20:04, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] WP:ITN/DC clearly states: A death should only be placed on ITN if it meets one of the following criteria: (a) the deceased was in a high ranking office of power at the time of death (b) the deceased was a key figure in their field of expertise, and died unexpectedly or tragically (c) the death has a major international impact that affects current events. The modification or creation of multiple articles to take into account the ramifications of a death is a sign that it meets the third criterion. Now as far as I can see no-one has explained how Kennedy's deaths meets any of these criteria. Arguments are limited to saying that he was very important in America and as such it is ITN worthy, saying his death is being followed by loads of news organisations across the globe and ITN should follow suit or saying that opposing on the grounds of US centricism is not a valid reason and as such should not stop this going up--Daviessimo (talk) 20:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Concur. It is unfortunate that accusations of anti-Americanism are now flying around, along with a threat at IAR, but it doesn't help that US-centricism accusations have been made by people, including me, for which I apologize. My basic point is that the criteria labelled above does not cover Kennedy; to put briefly, he was an important figure in the US, not in the world. talk) 20:24, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] well i did explain in steps how it does not meet the criteria. the response was "US Senator is one of the highest levels of power in US politics", so i stopped replying. Im sorry but clearly people supporting dont even want to read why the item doesnt meet guidelines. i got nothing against US items or Kennedy. He was great senator sure but this news item is limited within US and logically if u post this u should be posting 2nd level (below head of state) politician deaths for entire world. Since we will clearly not do that then posting this item makes ITN US-centric by default. People comparing this to Les Paul should first find out that Les Paul was a musician who had worldwide impact and thats why it was posted. ITN is not breaking news or today's top stories. it needs to stay neutral (as much as possible) across whole world and for that reason it should not be posted (unless ofcourse all those supporting would like to come back and support every death of other countries 2nd level politicians. but most likely no one will be seen on ITN again and the regular people will have deal with the aftermath). -- Ashish-g55 20:27, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] I have added a brief mention of Senator Kennedy's death to the listings as its absence at this point is absurd and glaring. Please also see my edit summary for the addition, which invokes WP:IAR, if needed. I have kept the item brief given the lack of complete consensus for its inclusion, and not added a photograph, although I strongly recommend that it be added. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Really not a good idea, and I'm glad another admin has reverted. WP:IAR is good for some situations, but with such a heated debate going on with neither side having majority support, arbitrarily trying to impose your own view seems very unwise. I understand your annoyance at this not being up; I myself am annoyed that a user is going around removing the order of succession of various incumbent leaders, despite my reverts, but in the end sometimes we must all accept our view don't always win. talk) 20:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] I've posted to ANI for further input into this discussion, as I consider this situation an absurd one. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Absurd is not the word I'd use Brad. Nowhere near strong enough. Yes I understand we do not want to be all US all the time, but this is bloody ridiculous. SirFozzie (talk) 20:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] To be honest, I think I will support having Kennedy up just to prevent this whole thing degrading further. Arguments about whether Kennedy should be up or not are not worth enough to have the mudslinging that is happening between some editors now. talk) 20:49, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Baitullah Mehsud's death on ITN (who?); Ted Kennedy's, not. Silly. 189.146.238.196 (talk) 20:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Interestingly, his death is now on the French main page, the Portuguese one, Dutch, Swedish, Czech, Catalan. But not here. Almost embarrassing, considering how many people must be looking at our main page for info on the senator. Deserted Cities 20:37, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] I second that. This news is being reported all over the world. To give some countries that people haven't mentioned: Japan, Italy, and South Africa. Most International coverage features multiple articles and multimedia coverage like video and pictures. Gujarat Samachar, a niche Indian newspaper published in a local language, also has a front page article on this, as does Sandesh, another local newspaper. I'd say that the coverage in these newspapers and TV channels, across several languages, in addition to coverage on the Guardian, the Times, Le Monde, etc. speaks for the importance the global press assigns to the topic. In terms of his impact, leaders all over the world (a mostly complete list at Huffington Post) have come out to remember him. Ted Kennedy was the brother of an American president and a near-President, and ran for the post himself. He brokered peace in Northern Ireland and has been a steadfast supporter of Israel. The only argument I've heard against adding him to the ITN section is that he is a Senator, and that he is an American. The American argument I won't even address. But the Senator argument? He's not just any Senator. He's the most prolific and powerful senator in American history, matched only by Henry Clay. He's a political celebrity with deep familial ties to the Oval Office and with supporters all over the world. Would foreign Prime Ministers feel obliged to respond to the death of Al Franken? would that be covered in every foreign newspaper worth the paper its printed on? Would that be on the main page of the French, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, etc. Wikipedias? The answer, by the way, is no, because Al Franken is just another Senator, no more important globally than Shinjiro Koizumi or Alan Campbell. However, the title of Senator (or, equivalently, MP) does not disqualify someone from being considered important globally- look at Barack Obama or Hilary Clinton. They were household names all over the world while still acting in a Senatorial capacity. The point is, in every country, some legislators are more prominent than others. For a select few, that prominence in global. Ted Kennedy, while not necessarily a topic of active discussion, is a household name in my village of a hometown in India- which is more than the Canadian Prime Minister can say. To not report his death on Wikipedia- excuse me, to report his death on every version of Wikipedia but the English one- is simply shameful for a website that claims to be the centre of information on the web. Consensus here is utterly clear. Pending any objections within the next few minutes I will be adding this to the ITN template shortly. –Juliancolton | Talk 20:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Support Even speaking as a European surrender monkey who sometimes gets irritated with US-centrics here, to leave this off ITN is ludicrous. Black Kite 20:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Support - Per NYB. Seriously. What. the. heck. J.delanoygabsadds 20:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Strong support - add it right away. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Support: I get it, US-centrism is a real problem, but this is the wrong place to make a stand against it. Wikipedia policy clearly supports inclusion: "The deceased was in a high ranking office of power, and had a significant contribution/impact on the country/region." Common sense clearly supports inclusion (as mentioned above, Kennedy's death has been a major topic in the news worldwide, not just in the US). If you're willing to place the crusade against US-centrism ahead of policy and common sense, then... come on. MastCell Talk 20:57, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Added –Juliancolton | Talk 20:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] This should never, ever, ever happen again that a handful of editors block the placement of an obviously newsworthy death. It's absurd that this discussion occurred, let alone went this long. Tan | 39 20:53, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] 80% of supporters stepped on this page for the first time (or in a very long time atleast) and did not give a crap about what ITN guidelines are and people who opposed were simply trying to state why the item does not qualify. those 80% will never be seen again here and not that their support does not matter IT DOES but atleast try to justify the support. or listen to editors who do know the guidelines. The reason why it seems like the item took long is because every US government change gets nominated and argued upon over here. -- Ashish-g55 21:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] If the completely embarrassing conversation listed above is typical of the regular constributors here then perhaps it is time for some new eyes to get involved at ITN. Any random American senator dying, fair enough ... but Ted Kennedy?! Frankly astonishing. Black Kite 21:08, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] you are more than welcome or any of u above to come here more often. but fact is almost none will and when some other "random" US senator dies and gets nominated we will go through exact same discussion again with new people and no one will remember ur statement. seen it happen again and again over past years. and calling above discussions "embarrasing" shows u do not know much about ITN yourself. -- Ashish-g55 21:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] It is probably best that I wrote "embarrassing" rather than what I actually think about that conversation and some of those that took part in it. Black Kite 21:17, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] At the end of the day there is a concensus and this item has gone up - fair play. But can I just ask, of the many admins and general editors, who have come here to comment on this and in the process seemingly acted to criticise and attack regular ITN contributors like myself, how many of you will be contributing to ITN tomorrow? Or next week? Or even next month? Its all well and good criticising us over this (and the end of the day all I've done like many others is follow the criteria laid down as WP:ITN/DC), but come tomorrow, when this has blown over it will be once again the same few editors and few admins who actively contribute to ITN that'll be here working away developing items to go up on the main page. And yet we still end up with comments like those from the above user, which are in my mind totally uncalled for and nothing but a needless attack on the hard work that regular ITN contributors make --Daviessimo (talk) 21:19, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] If ITN regulars oppose Edward Kennedy's death going on ITN, then core changes need to be made to the system that has evolved. If this is the ethos that "hard work" has produced, I say scrap it all and start over. Tan | 39 21:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] No, it's not an attack on ITN contributors as a whole, more of a response to the comments like the one from Ashishg55 indicating far too high a level of WP:OWN going on here. Or perhaps it's more of an attack on a process that appears to have become slightly insular, but nevertheless it is quite ludicrous that for pretty much a whole day ITN has not carried a story that has been the #1 news item in a vast majority of the world. Black Kite 21:24, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] (edit conflict, to Daviessimo) I understand completely that the editors who spend a lot of time on ITN, both in developing the guidelines and in doing the day-to-day work of selecting and crafting items, play an important role and should be recognized for doing so. All of us self-select our different niches and responsibilities around the project, and mine, for example, are generally on pages other than this one. That means that 999 times in 1000, I will generally defer in the selection of ITN items to the people who focus on ITN. On the other hand, conversely, it also means that if I or others come to this page to raise a specific concern about the omission of a given item, the concern is sufficiently glaring that posting about it became a priority even for someone whose attention is generally elsewhere. Of itself, that is reasonably relevant input suggesting that application of the usual standards or guidelines might need to be reevaluated or superseded in that given instance. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Its a complete joke, what makes it even more offensive is what was considered notable enough like the Miss world thing. How something as pathetic as that which gets no international headlines gets in and the death of a senior senator known around the world and reported on around the world cant then i agree clearly the guidelines need to be rewritten to encompass commonsense. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] Support inclusion, of course; this was front-page international news. There also needs to be a closer eye kept on ITN in general, because it's clear that some of the regulars have created their own little bureaucracy with absurd "rules." That has to stop. *** Crotalus *** 21:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Common sense support International news even among non-English language sources. If any of the other 99 US Senators like Robert Byrd, Arlen Specter or Jim DeMint died, it wouldn't have the same level of coverage. Ted Kennedy's influence and worldwide persona is unique. AgneCheese/Wine 21:45, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply] ITN FAIL (IOW Support). Kudos to the brave/smart individual who added this obvious worldwide news story to the Main Page. Every time I visit ITN/C, the chorus of "too US-centric" makes me throw up a little in my mouth. It's obvious that Kennedy's death is being covered by major news organizations around the world. I admit it's not nearly as important as who won the Miss Universe Pageant. (you know, because she will clearly have a great impact on her country's political system) that's not my name 21:47, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] US Centrism It looks like some of the INT regulars are gossiping amongst themselves; "ITN newbies - they all act like they know the rules or guidelines"; "...all those US users who think they are the centre of the universe". This is going to stop, today. This isn't how Wikipedia works, this isn't how Wikipedia editors should be acting, and the status quo is going to change. Tan | 39 21:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply ] Is it too much to ask for a pic? Deserted Cities 20:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, here's an argument I think hasn't been offered before: The last time he died it was our fault. This time I think the least thing we owe him is a proper obituary, right? Lampman (talk) 00:19, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Moldova

• The Moldovan government announces that it will stand down before the opening of parliament on Friday. A coalition of four opposition parties will then attempt to elect a president. This will (I think) result in the fall of Europe's last communist government. Could be mainpage-worthy on friday if not today. Source: (BBC) - Dumelow (talk) 17:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the standing down of the current government is in of itself notable enough to put on ITN. If, however, a new president is successfully elected, that is notable enough.

talk) 17:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Iraq and Syria

Iraq and Syria have recalled their ambassadors to one another following the discovery of links between Syria and terrorism in Iraq. Relevant article is Iraq–Syria relations but it needs an update. Worthy of the mainpage? Source: (BBC) - Dumelow (talk) 17:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tit for tat diplomatic expulsions are normally put up so I support once updated --Daviessimo (talk) 07:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have done a small update, haven't got time to do any more at the moment but it has the basic info on the incident in there - Dumelow (talk) 17:21, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Women's Equality Day

Just a placeholder that August 26 is Women's Equality Day in the U.S. Celebrating the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which gave women the right to vote. I understand that ITN doesn't like American news and usually by accident favors photos of men. But just in case a woman wins something around then. TFA and DYK both have suggestions for this day, and I put a note into the WikiProject for OTD. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:18, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You mean have a woman as the image? There doesn't seem anything wrong with that suggestion. Maybe if other countries have similar women's days and someone suggested they be included on those days also though. --

•wicke 00:04, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Yes. How sad it has to be a "woman's day" to get a photo on Wikipedia ITN though. :-) -SusanLesch (talk) 00:33, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

i will support but whats the news item lol. isnt this more of OTD thing. and for the photo we did have miss universe but it got removed due to copyright issues. i guess there are a lot less free images of women ;) -- Ashish-g55 23:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well I believe the 8th March should be the most important day to try and get a photo of a woman on ITN. The lack of photos on ITN is unfortunate but reflective of the unfortunate fact that there are still far fewer women in positions of power then men, particularly world leaders who we have most often (given the frequent availability of photos from USgov sources). Having said that while there's nothing wrong with having a free photo of Miss Universe or whatever on ITN, I would hope we would have a lot more then just that, it's not exactly the right message if the only females we ever have on ITN are beauty contestant winners Nil Einne (talk) 11:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

actually what i was saying was that we didnt even have a free image of miss universe lol.everything seems to be copyrighted these days -- Ashish-g55 13:30, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

August 25

August 25, 2009 (2009-08-25) (Tuesday)

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• At least 40 people are killed and 57 wounded in a car bomb explosion in Kandahar, southern Afghanistan. (Reuters) (BBC) (The New York Times) (Aljazeera)
• Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, it being a matter for the Scottish Government. (Daily Telegraph)
• The
  PAS defeats the government party UMNO in the by-election at Permatang Pasir, Penang. (Bernama)
• A suicide bombing in
  Mesker-Yurt, Chechnya, kills three police officers. (Yahoo! news) (BBC News)
• Madagascar's political rivals meet for a second round of talks in Maputo, Mozambique. (Reuters Africa)
• STSAT-2A satellite into the planned orbit. (BBC News) (The Korea Times) (Yonhap)
• U.S. President
  chairman of the Federal Reserve. (Bloomberg)
• A bomb in
  2001 invasion. (BBC)
• A gas explosion at a coal mine in Shanxi, China, kills at least 14 people. (China Daily) (BBC)
• The United States
  budget deficit for 2009 will reach $1.6 trillion, the highest ever recorded. (BBC)
• 42 people are injured after a car bomb explodes at a crowded restaurant with government officials in Narathiwat, southern Thailand. (Bangkok Post)^{[permanent dead link]} (The Age)
• bombings in Baghdad last week. (The Daily Star Lebanon) (Al Jazeera) (Syrian News Station)
• U.S. troops access to its military bases. (CNN)
• The Morris Fire begins near Morris Dam in the Angeles National Forest. This fire is thought to have been caused by arson and is the first in a series of wildfires to burn through Southern California in 2009.

ITN candidates for August 25

• Michael Jackson's death is termed a homicide. MacMed^talk_stalk 18:47, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. "wikinews:Coroner says Michael Jackson's death was due to sedative overdose" is on the Wikinews front page. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:27, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• MSNBC says differently. MacMed^talk_stalk 19:46, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I don't understand the difference. Wikinews's first sentence says homicide. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. MJ was on Main page back in June and that's enough. Also, this is a wikinews-type story. --Tone 20:27, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• U.S. drone attack
  .

• Support (and sorry I couldn't figure out how to start a new day). We waited for confirmation since August 7. They said he died on Sunday, August 23. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. In any case, X says Y is not an appropriate ITN blurb. The story here is that Baitullah Mehsud died and this is where we use the death criteria. I don't think they are met here. --Tone 20:27, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's okay, but—and except that it is a Start-class and not a B-class article—it meets the death criteria:

• a high ranking office of power, and had a significant contribution/impact on the country/region.
• was a very important figure in their field of expertise, and was recognised as such.
• has a major international impact that affects current events. The modification or creation of multiple articles to take into account the ramifications of a death is a sign that it meets the third criterion.

updates had to be and were made to

Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan. I said "Hakimullah said" to work him in as new leader. Other wordings welcome if it's worth it. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:37, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

I will write some Wikinews as this deserves a mention. -SusanLesch (talk) 01:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Almost done with wikinews:Pakistan Taliban say Baitullah Mehsud is dead. A hell of a lot of work to get around Tone's objection. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Better late than never. ;-) Wikireader41 (talk) 02:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

 Posted — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Last game of the
  FIBA Oceania Championship 2009
• Probably worth nothing since Australia will win and New Zealand will be invited as a wild card for the World Championships. 119.111.124.130 (talk) 08:31, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well this one is a red link but let me guess—another qualifying tournament? --

•wicke 18:26, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

As the anon said this seems quite worthless so I'd just skip this part... –Howard the Duck 11:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But should any of the others have time on the Main Page either? How can anyone decide if one is more "worthless" than another? --

•wicke 00:00, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Let's base it on

FIBA World Rankings

points: this one is worth 0.1 points for 1st place.(virtually worthless). A EuroBasket championship stated below is worth 1 point.

Probably not. However, shall we include Eurobasket (this will take place next month)? It's the second biggest international event in basketball, after the World c'ship (and Olympics, but those are less frequent). --Tone 20:27, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

New Zealand won, and it was an upset, but nobody really cares by now since both countries will qualify. I'd argue on the inclusion on EuroBasket next month, let's see if something happens there. I'd bet if the Luol Deng-powered UK performs well we'll see a marked increased in "notability" among the people here. –Howard the Duck 05:23, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Space Shuttle Discovery is scheduled to launch on mission STS-128 which will, amongst other things, will deliver a new furnace and freezer to the ISS (BBC) - Dumelow (talk) 17:04, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This has now been delayed until August 26 (due to bad weather) - Dumelow (talk) 16:39, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then we shall see tomorrow. We like space stories here ;-) --Tone 20:27, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

although nothing that exciting about shuttle launch this time.. a furnace and freezer lol. -- Ashish-g55 21:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Postponed again I'm afraid, some sort of problem with a valve or something. Next attempt on 28 August - Dumelow (talk) 16:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• cool stuff) 05:38, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Support, very important figure. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 05:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose not a world leader --Stephen 05:59, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose not a major world figure, nor was this unexpected. Sadly an admin already posted it. The great kawa (talk) 23:38, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose and thank you to the admin who truncated this item. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

August 24

August 24, 2009 (2009-08-24) (Monday)

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• According to court documents, the
  Los Angeles County coroner's preliminary assessment is that Michael Jackson's death was caused by an overdose of the anesthetic propofol.(Reuters)
• The district court in
  ISP, Black Internet, to stop serving the website's traffic.(CNET News)
• Eesti Telekom. (The Wall Street Journal)
• Former Cuban leader Fidel Castro appears on television for the first time in more than a year. (BBC) (Al Jazeera)
• Thieves kill an endangered
  intestines behind. (BBC) (Jakarta Globe)
• Primate of All Ireland. (The Irish Times)
• China is to try 200 people suspected of their involvement in the Ürümqi riots last month. (GBC) (Associated Press) (Press TV)
• Two mass graves containing the remains of
  communist soldiers dating from the Vietnam War are discovered in central Vietnam. (The Straits Times) (China Daily)
• A
  Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno, who was convicted of drinking alcohol, is granted a reprieve until after Ramadan. (Al Jazeera) (Bernama) (Xinhua) (IOL)
• Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill defends his decision to release the man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing, Abdelbaset al-Megrahi. (BBC) (The Guardian) (Al Jazeera) (Xinhua)
• Kenya's fifth national census takes place. (KBC)^{[permanent dead link]} (BBC) (The Nation) (Associated Press)
• Captain
  President, after previously promising not to. (BBC) (AFP) (IOL)
• At least 200 children are killed and around 900 hospitalised by Japanese encephalitis in Uttar Pradesh, India. (BBC)
• Baitullah Mehsud is confirmed dead by leaders of Pakistan's Taliban. (Associated Press)

ITN candidates for August 24

South Korea

• Naro-1 has been launched at 8 00 UTC on August 25

STSAT-2A

satellite

Second launch attempt. First launch of a satellite by South Korea has happened at 8:00 UTC. I suggest it for ITN as soon as the successful launch is confirmed. Hektor (talk) 07:37, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support as soon as the article is updated (still needs some fixes). --Tone 08:08, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Satellite separated. Launch seems to be successful. Hektor (talk) 08:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Posting. --Tone 09:44, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It was a partial faliure! The satellite did not reach orbit. Should update. 76.65.23.203 (talk) 14:21, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

India

200 killed --

talk) 19:19, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Do we have an article? --Tone 19:35, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sad reality that huge number of deaths in that country rarely get any coverage. The number is likely under-reported as well.

August 23

August 23, 2009 (2009-08-23) (Sunday)

• edit
• history
• watch

• Tens of thousands of people in the
  Baltic states mark the twentieth anniversary of the 'Baltic Way' - when two million people formed a human chain to protest against Soviet Union rule. (Aljazeera), (Guardian), (Baltic Times)
  .
• Tens of thousands of people protest against a new law which gives women equal rights in marriage in Bamako, Mali. (BBC) (Afrique en ligne)
• 26 men accused of plotting attacks on tourist resorts and ships in the Suez Canal on behalf of Lebanon's Hezbollah group go on trial in an Egyptian security court. (IOL) (BBC)
• Thousands of people are evacuated as forest fires reach the outskirts of the Greek capital, Athens. (Associated Press) (BBC) (Daily Mail) (RTÉ)
• North Korean envoys meet the South Korean President Lee Myung-bak for the first time since he took office. (Al Jazeera) (Yonhap)
• A new picture of Fidel Castro is published in the Juventud Rebelde state-run newspaper, apparently showing Cuba's ailing former leader in much better health. (BBC) (CNN) (IOL)^{[permanent dead link]} (Reuters Africa)
• presidential election. (Xinhua) (The Guardian) (The Times of India)
• Shia rebels in the past two weeks, including two leaders, but the rebels deny their leaders, Mohsen Saleh Gawd and Salah Jorman, are dead and no independent confirmation is made available. (BBC)
• A leak at an offshore oil rig that caused a large oil spill off the coast of Australia "could take weeks" to be plugged. (Associated Press) (The Australian)^{[permanent dead link]}
• A severe drought in northern
  China leaves 5 million people short of water and damages 8.7 million hectares of farmland. (The Straits Times) (Press Trust of India) (China Daily)
• Australia. (BBC)
• orchestrating a truck bombing at the finance ministry, the first of two bombings that killed 95 people and maimed hundreds more in Baghdad on 19 August. (The Sydney Morning Herald) (Straits Times)
• cabinet members to review the work of a unity government it has formed with its opponents, over charges of electoral fraud. (Reuters Africa)
• Honduras's Supreme Court rejects a Costa Rica-brokered deal to restore ousted President Manuel Zelaya to power and orders his arrest if he returns. (BBC)
• Stefania Fernandez of Venezuela was crowned Miss Universe 2009 by her compatriot Dayana Mendoza, the first in the history. She was crowned at the Atlantis Paradise Island, Nassau, The Bahamas
  .

ITN candidates for August 23

Miss Universe 2009

Bahamas

.

We'd have an excuse to have pretty face for a few days... –Howard the Duck 03:30, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. it is "universe", cant get more diverse than that (also i think this should be ITNR). and partially for the reason mentioned above. -- Ashish-g55 17:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. An article appeared last year for this.

Nominate! 19:18, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Posting. Shall we put the image also if it is free? It has a tag at the moment. --Tone 19:26, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

boooo, whole point of this was so we can look at her for few days :) -- Ashish-g55 20:10, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Though I think the word Universe is POV here. I haven't seen any

Andorians participating... And neither Vogon, luckily :P --Tone 20:15, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

pffft they dont stand a chance against her lol. nyways we have a free picture now it seems. put it up =D -- Ashish-g55 22:56, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

...and people wonder why the "In the News" regulars were getting flamed for refusing to post Ted Kennedy's death. Nobody would have complained if the other stuff in ITN was earth-shatteringly important, but why is this utterly irrelevant factoid still hanging out here five days later? In the News should not be some kind of bizarre "let's be fair" recap of international events, especially when said international event is like 1/1000 the importance of, say, a sporting event that people actually care about like The Ashes or Usain Bolt. And the Miss Universe 2009 article has maybe 4 paragraphs of prose in total, and a lot of lists, so it's not even a great feature on those grounds. To clarify, I'm not opposed to this inclusion on prudish or second-wave feminist grounds, nor because I think only "serious business" should be included. Feel free to keep featuring sports and the like. I'm opposed to its inclusion on the basis that Miss Universe is a footnote on the scale of cultural importance, but apparently was included anyway because "it cant get more diverse than this." It should be removed in favor of... well, Kenndy's up there now, but pretty much *anything* else. Escaped Quaternion (talk) 03:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

However, it is the largest, most well-known and the pinnacle of the beauty pageant field with international involvement. Therequiembellishere (talk) 03:48, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

the above comments are only jokes because we get bored sometimes. it wasnt stated but it was obvious amongst people why miss universe is important. did u ever stop to think how many people in the world actually follow miss universe event. how notable it is in countries like india, canada, venezuela etc. thats why with my little joke i proposed it for ITNR. it was included before too so we here didnt feel its important to state all the reasons everytime. some things are just understood. just to make it clear this wasnt added as "lets be fair" recap of international event... it was added because it is of interest to people around the globe and if u think there is no cultural importance to it then that is your POV. i would also like to know how u came to decision that its got 1/1000 importance. can u cite some material to prove that. -- Ashish-g55 03:56, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Korea

• Nom North Korean and South Korean meetings. --bender235 (talk) 12:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These are the ones which are the first time in two years? I'm not sure... has anything happened at these meetings? --

•wicke 17:16, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

The Ashes

• I may be tempting fate but England are close to winning
  Australian cricket team in England in 2009 and seems to be fairly decent. There is also a free image of The Ashes' urn which we can use. Whoever wins (or draws) the series it should probably go up anyway as it is listed at WP:ITNR - Dumelow (talk) 14:53, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

ENGLAND have now won the Ashes, so as soon as the articles are updated i support it going up on ITNJason Rees (talk) 17:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested phrasing: The

series 2-1 and regaining The Ashes (pictured) Modest Genius ^talk 17:41, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Oppose. I remember we did not have the result of one of the European football championship (was it UEFA cup?), therefore I think it is not appropriate to have the result of a match between two countries. --Tone 19:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support The Ashes is a huge deal in cricket. It is the same as India vs Pakistan, only with a much longer and less politically charged history. Just because it only involves two nations shouldn't be an issue when events such as the Superbowl or AFL go up. Also we put the IPL up, which is a domestic league in cricket so I can't see any valid argument in opposition to this other than if it lacked an update. The UEFA Cup (which I nominated and wanted to see up) was rejected because there was also the Champions league to go up at the same time and people felt it was a second tier competition. There is no way you could ever call the Ashes a second tier cricket competition --Daviessimo (talk) 20:22, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. This is the biggest fixture in world cricket, and is listed on

WP:ITNR. Modest Genius ^talk 20:34, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

The current suggestion seems a bit overlinked and confusing. How about the following? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:51, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]