Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 170

talk

) 21:45, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

My issue is that I've noticed that

WP:WAX.—CoolMarc

22:00, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Shall we blacklist National Enquirer? While using People or Us Weekly might not be so bad for giving an age range, they do frequently engage in false gossip (often regarding celeb relationships). I gave a couple examples above, even if you don't feel they are poor support or anything for claims. How is Entertainment Weekly not better for biographies if they have a higher accuracy rate, though, and are more professional in their writing?? Whenever possible, I strongly encourage replacement of People, Us Weekly, New York Post, and others with better sources.

talk

) 21:59, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

CoolMarc, as I said Daily Mail has been repeatedly declared unreliable in previous WP:RSN discussions. It will have to be removed/replaced by better sources, as it is listed under "sources to avoid" in WP:ALBUM/SOURCES.

talk

) 22:02, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

You overstate your case -- DM is reliable for many topics, but should not be used for contentious claims about anyone in a BLP. It is generally accurate on many topics outside celebrity gossip, but, frankly, the more titillating the gossip, the less reliable any source becomes. It is due more to the nature of the gossip than to the nature of the publication. Collect (talk) 22:29, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Collect, there are conversations such as this and this. It has frequently been scrutinized for fraud.

talk

) 22:35, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

So Daily Mail are now completely unreliable on every matter as per WP:RSN? As I see

User:XXSNUGGUMSXX is now removing them from numerous articles without looking into what each Daily Mail article states, but simply reasoning "Bye bye Daily Mail as per WP:RSN". Is this the same for every tabloid format now? Such as Daily Mirror, Daily Record etc? —CoolMarc

23:04, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

As far as I can tell based on previous WP:RSN discussions and other criticisms of Daily Mail, looks like it isn't a reliable source at all.

talk

) 23:15, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

For certain things, no, I would say it's not. The used of the more sensationalistic tabloids should generally be discouraged, as they have a disturbing history of manufacturing stories and controversies. For something innocuous, like a review, I think it would be alright. I personally would never cite one of these rumormongering tabloids as a reliable source under any circumstances, but I recognize some people like to do so. I would discourage them from using such disreputable sources in Good and Featured articles, but I guess there's really no policy-based mandate for that. As far as People and other celebrity magazines go, I'd say that we need to be very careful not to repeat rumors or speculation. I don't like the idea of using celebrity-obsessed tabloids, but Flyer22 has made some compelling arguments that have caused me to soften my stance a bit. I sympathize with XXSNUGGUMSXX's hardline stance on reliable sources, but I think an interview from People would be fine. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:30, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Is The Telegraph a reliable newspaper for the statements attributed to the UK science minister in this article? Since I'm from the US, I am not familiar with UK newspapers other than The TImes. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:54, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

The Daily Telegraph most certainly is reliable. That and The Guardian are among the most reliable newspapers in the area.

talk

) 16:36, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

It is considered equal in stature to The Times: [13]. Betty Logan (talk) 17:19, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure as to whether this site Renowned for Sound] is reliable? Can I have some input on this please? —CoolMarc 16:09, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, it's got an editor listed. That's always a good sign. From randomly reading a few articles, I'd say the site's grammar and spelling seem to be fairly good, which is also a promising sign. I did a few standard Google searches, and I didn't really turn up much when searching for "according to renowned for sound" or "according to renownedforsound.com". I did turn up this mention, though. So, I would accept it for reviews, but news reporting might be a little contentious. Other sites don't seem to trust it, so I'm not sure we should, either. It does seem edited, however. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:34, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply! —CoolMarc 20:11, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Because of how little this web magazine is discussed by other media, I think each article should be evaluated on a case by case basis. Founder Brendon Veevers is not well known as a music critic, despite his years of such work. Certainly the 'facts' presented in interviews count as

WP:SECONDARY sources. Binksternet (talk

) 20:36, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

It looks like they take payment to feature artists, though that material is restricted to a dedicated "Ones to watch" subsection. But anything in that section should, at the very least, be used with the usual

WP:PRIMARY cautions, since it comes from the artist directly. I'd also have to wonder how objective they could be in any subsequent coverage of artists who previously paid to be featured. Siawase (talk

) 16:13, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Simon Collins#RfC: Do newspaper sources that are unavailable for free online thereby become unreliable and is the content they are cited to verify, thereby rendered poorly-sourced and/or unverifiable?.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:59, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Resolved

Can Yelp pages like this one be cited for summarized statements like the following one in the

No, I would stick to

Amazon.com. NinjaRobotPirate (talk

) 04:15, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I oppose the use of Yelp in this context. I own a small business and Yelp reviews are really important to my online image. But they are user-submitted and subject to "gaming" by vindictive cranks and unethical competitors. I have seen cases of extreme harassment on Yelp by people reminiscent of some of the trolls and sockpuppets here on Wikipedia. But I fear that Yelp management is sometimes slow to act. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:25, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I figured as much. Nightscream (talk) 11:47, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I opened a discussion recently regarding the reliability of this website; no consensus was reached, actually. This website I'm mentioning is called

I do not know much about FA's or GA's, but I would largely consider

own pages, though sandboxes may be another exception, though it isn't encouraged to "own" your sandbox, but Wikipedia doesn't seem to be as hard on those as they are actual articles. livelikemusic ^{my talk page!}

16:33, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

@Livelikemusic: Thank you for your quick comments, however I do not have a "owning pages" mentality whatsoever. The 'my' I wrote on the above text was just misinterpreted. prism^△ 16:40, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

At first, I didn't have problems with it. However, when I tried to use it in place of Daily Mail for Rihanna's net worth, Tomica reverted me saying Daily Mail was better (which I find absurd since Daily Mail has notoriously been scrutinized for fraud repeatedly). After hearing it was a blog, I began to have my doubts about Idolator. Some of their content seemed like gossip upon first glance. However, a closer look found it wasn't so frivolous. Some of it is quite well written and supported. Perhaps "blog" needs to be taken out of its Wikipedia article so it doesn't give a misleading red flag to readers who have never previously known of it. Some of their content is not quite accurate, though they generally provide an understandable basis even when in error. Overall, I no longer have concerns with using it.

talk

) 16:37, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Could you give an example on where has it posted "not quite accurate" content? Thank you! @JennKR, Tomica, and Calvin999: If you guys could give your two cents on this as well it would be very helpful.prism^△ 16:40, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

We shouldn't remove accurate descriptions of a site from its Wikipedia article just so that Wikipedia editors won't get the wrong idea about the site. It's time that more Wikipedia editors distinguish general blogs from

talk

) 16:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Most of the inaccuracies pertained to things like celeb gossip (but not

talk

) 16:57, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Thankfully they usually stay away from gossip-y posts and rumors, so that won't be a problem for assuring its place as a reliable source. prism^△ 17:01, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Is this University of Georgia (link here) newspaper reliable and/or reputable enough? I want to use an album review from it on an FAC. prism^△ 10:39, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

If you have a look at nearly (maybe all) articles about various country passports or visa requirements, for example:

• Visa requirements for Singaporean citizens
• Trinidad and Tobago passport
• Visa requirements for Costa Rican citizens

You will notice that most of them reference the Henley index (which redirects to Freedom of movement.) Upon inspection the Henley index is produced by Henley & Partners, which calls itself the Global Leaders In Residence and Citizenship Planning. Is this the sort of thing that we should be using for a reference? The Henley index doesn't really mean anything (outside of the Henley group), is it something we should be describing as "a thing" in these articles? My opinion is no, and I think it basically equates to spam. Not really sure where this discussion should go, I thought RS/N was a good start as I don't think this residence planning company is really a reliable source.--kelapstick^(bainuu) 12:53, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Are court judgements considered primary or secondary sources? Background here. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:50, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I would re-frame your question slightly to read "is it more consistent with Wikipedia's role as a reliable source of encyclopedic knowledge to reference learned, reasoned and independent (by definition) judgments rather than press articles" Justmauritius (talk) 20:10, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the debate, but if any of the judgments are being used to support claims about living people then public records such as court documents are prohibited per

WP:BLPPRIMARY. Betty Logan (talk

) 20:19, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Bingo. Court documents are just about always primary documents, especially for judgments. While the judgement may summarize or quote specific filings / evidence, it ultimately is something produced by the judge(s). They shouldn't even really be used as a source for specific quotes mined from the judgment as it's far too easy to fall into POV quote-mining. We should always be using secondary sources.

Ravensfire (talk

) 20:36, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

It would have to depend what the judgment is being used for. An opinion summarizing the state of the law should be perfectly fine to use as a source on the state of the law. If we are talking about the facts of a particular case, would an appellate opinion summarizing the findings of the court below be a secondary source relative to the opinion below? bd2412 T 03:35, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

No, those are still primary. We can't use court documents of a judicial opinion by themselves as a source for what "the state of the law" is without including every caveat, nuance, and nod to jurisdiction implied or stated in the ruling. If a Wikipedia editor is determining which part of a ruling or judicial opinion is significant, that's original research. Wikipedia editors are not reliable sources for interpreting legal documents.__ E L A Q U E A T E 03:48, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Legal research and writing does not work that way. A case is a primary source for the case itself (we have many articles on specific cases), but to treat an opinion like a primary source for its discussion of a statute explained in the opinion would make no more sense than considering a legal textbook to be a primary source for its discussion of the same statute. In that case, the Wikipedia editor is still determining which part of the discussion in the textbook is significant; if that was going to be the test, then Wikipedians would be barred from using any sources at all. Of course, most legal textbooks explain the meaning of the law by merely quoting the language of judicial opinions! bd2412 T 13:36, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

My 2p on this is that discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States v. Article Consisting of 50,000 Cardboard Boxes More or Less, Each Containing One Pair of Clacker Balls might be helpful in determining if they are or not. I have no opinion either way. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 13:57, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, in a case like that, court documents are primary about the case they present, because they will naturally be generated by the case (otherwise, the argument becomes every legal case could be notable if the court documents were secondary). There may be cases about Case Y that is discussed in the legal findings of Case X to support Case Y's notability as secondary review of Case Y, but those same documents are still primary for Case X. --MASEM (t) 14:10, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Of course, most legal textbooks explain the meaning of the law by merely quoting the language of judicial opinions! Newspapers quote people, that doesn't mean that directly quoting a person without a newspaper wouldn't be quoting a primary source. If something is reviewed in law journals or legal textbooks, then it is being vetted as important by people other than Wikipedia editors. Not everything a judge says in an opinion is notable or universally clear as to its technical import to people with no legal background. We don't treat judge's opinions as non-involved, third-party sources for the decisions they make. We don't interpret judgements, we report how others interpret them. We sometimes use primary sources for quotes, but an article shouldn't consist of primary sources, or we would have a Wikipedia article for every decision made (as Masem just said). A judge's opinion is a source for what it said, but is not a source by itself for whether it has legal significance.__ E L A Q U E A T E 14:41, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

It may be useful for our purposes to distinguish between trial court opinions and appellate opinions. A trial court is generally examining the facts before it, while the appellate court is examining the decision of the trial court, usually to see whether the trial court made a mistake in its application of the law. It is typically the appellate opinions that are quoted in legal texts and cited as authority by other courts. In arcane areas of law, however, the third-party sources most likely to quote or analyse the opinions even of an appellate court are law blogs, which I would think are less reliable than the courts themselves. I would add, as someone who has recently entered the field of legal journalism after having practiced as an attorney, that mass-market news outlets are notorious for misunderstanding the law as presented in judicial opinions. bd2412 T 17:03, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

In this instance the court case was used as a citation to provide evidence by example to underpin a point concerning a general "state of the Law" edit. The parties to the case are academic and of no relevance. As was observed, if the edit was concerning the parties then it would be a primary source but where the edit is concerning a general point of law it is simply an example being used to illustrate typical circumstances in which the point of law applies. In this instance it serves to illustrate the general point of an "unfair trial" and not concerning a specific unfair trial. I would re-iterate that in my view, in these circumstances, the pleadings themselves are primary source, the independent, reasoned and analysed judgment of the Court (in this instance five judges)relevant to the general article is highly worthy material to post. I welcome further comment? Justmauritius (talk) 14:36, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

If you were the one "providing evidence" to support a point, that sounds like original research. Is it the judges who say the circumstances are typical, or is that a point you're trying to make by pointing to a single judgement where a judgement happened a certain way?__ E L A Q U E A T E 14:47, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, looking at this, you're attempting to use the existence of a single case to support your own assertion that these cases are significant. The existence of an example is not a reliable source for generalizations or assertions made by an editor. Otherwise, I could include a citation of a few jaywalking cases of completely unknown significance into the Jaywalking article. You need a third-party source that these arrests represent something of significance. (I'm neutral about whether the case is significant, but it's probably more significant to a sub-page about the Commonwealth State of Mauritius than the general principle of law. The judges are making a ruling about a single incident in a single country under a specific law, they are clearly not speaking to how the principle should be interpreted generally.) This is not a reliable source for the content you're trying to insert.__ E L A Q U E A T E 15:07, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

In this instance the court case was used as a citation to provide evidence by example to underpin a point... – This sounds and awful lot like

WP:SYNTHESIS to me. We are not permitted to make claims that are not explicitly made by the source attributed to it. Betty Logan (talk

) 15:50, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Court decisions are always primary sources, whether they summarize the facts or provide opinions on the law. When writing articles about legal opinion, one should use law textbooks or legal reports, and generally only quote the case where secondary sources have found it helpful to do so. TFD (talk) 02:04, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm with TFD: Anything issued by a court is primary until proven otherwise (and also technically self-published, by the way, although that's not important, since the court is "an expert" on what the court said). If the information is DUE, you will be able to find better sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:35, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

If a case is printed verbatim (or with minimal editing) in a third-party textbook or collection of selected cases, does that secondary publication count as a secondary source for the case, and the information presented in the case? bd2412 T 18:33, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't see that that that would make a difference, it's still primary. Any commmentary that accompanies it, which there would typically be in a case book, would be secondary though. DeCausa (talk) 20:05, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Quotes are still primary sources. A textbook for example may quote what a madman says, but that does not make his words reliable. Also, frequently there are majority and minority opinions in judgments, or may be reversed on appeal or a new Supreme Court may decide differently. Different states may interpret the same types of laws differently. We can only resolve that by using secondary sources. However judgments could be seen as secondary sources where they outline the history of a law and previous court decisions, although it would be rare that this would be the best source. TFD (talk) 06:17, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Yup - see

Ravensfire (talk

) 13:04, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

That would be a good reason to distinguish as sources trial court decisions (like the one you mention here) from appellate decisions. Appellate court decisions are a further step removed from the introduction of witness testimony and documentary evidence, are produced by a panel of judges rather than a single judge (and are generally internally reviewed by other chambers of the appellate court before being released), and reflect the higher degree of judicial expertise incumbent on appellate judges. bd2412 T 13:21, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Melissa Joan Hart#Official WP:PRIMARY source. An anon IP contends that melissajoanhart.ning.com (a defunct website) was merely a fansite and not official, and therefore not reliable for biographical statements in this BLP. I argue that it was certainly an official website; this is borne out by various evidence such as the site's own assertion as "official" as well as its byline "Created by Melissa Joan Hart" at the bottom of this page which links to her own user profile. She was creator and administrator of the site from its inception until its demise. It is also worth pointing out that the website, and its redirect, www.mellyjhart.com, were both linked from the BLP article for years purporting to be her official website. There has been no rational dispute of this fact for for over four years. It would be nice to settle definitively here. Elizium23 (talk) 02:44, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

The IP editor raises very good points. Anyone can put up a web site and claim to be a celebrity. I've had friends who did that sort of thing. I found a blog post where "Melissa Joan Hart" talks about how you can vote for her on Dancing with the Stars. Throughout the post, she speaks in first person ("I", "me", "my"). That doesn't prove anything, but it does lend some credence to the claim that this is at least supposed to be her official website and not a fan-run site. I don't see any evidence that this is her official web site, but it does claim to be. Eh, it's probably OK for trivial claims consistent with

WP:BLPSOURCES. If the IP editor still objects, then either back down or open an RfC. NinjaRobotPirate (talk

) 06:08, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I object. We're talking about a BLP issue. If anything is sacrosanct on Wikipedia, it's BLP. Wikipedia has run into serious problems with biographies of living people; there are very good reasons the policies are so strict. 75.177.156.78 (talk) 16:36, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Here is a Tweet from Melissa's verified Twitter account that links to a blog post she made on the Ning.com website. There are also many Tweets from her linking to mellyjhart.com, which was registered as a redirect link to melissajoanhart.ning.com. Elizium23 (talk) 09:54, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

If anyone is interested in a discussion about whether a celebrity fan page should be considered a reliable source: Talk:Melissa Joan Hart#Official WP:PRIMARY source. Thanks. 75.177.156.78 (talk) 14:43, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

For some things a fan site might be reliable but it will depend on the age of the site and its reputation possibly noted by others. However, I would almost say with certainty that a fan site of a living celebrity will never be reliable under the limitations/sourcing requirements of

WP:BLP. Unless we're talking an interview by that celebrity with that site where the site has clearly shown its editorial control and reliability, anything these types of sites publish are going to fail the higher WP:V requirements and/or will be reported by other more reliable sites. --MASEM (t

) 14:47, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I hope you'll look at the discussion linked above and, if you think it's appropriate, make your comments there. 75.177.156.78 (talk) 14:53, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Your first link is a dead link. And we are talking about melissajoanhart.ning.com, not mellyjhart.com. 75.177.156.78 (talk) 16:23, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

My first link is not a dead link. It links to a single Tweet on twitter.com, in which there is embedded a shortened link to ning.it. This link expands to http://melissajoanhart.ning.com/profiles/blogs/summer-premiere-tonight?xg_source=shorten_twitter so clearly Hart has directly Tweeted about the website she owned and operated. Elizium23 (talk) 16:58, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Click the link. It takes you to the message "404: Not Found". Again, do you make this stuff up as you go along? 75.177.156.78 (talk) 17:01, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Do you? The link works perfectly well for me. I assume you are referring to the link within the link. That is, if you click the link, then click to the ning.com site within it you get "404". Yes you do. We all know that. Elizium knows that. That's quite separate from your claim that a "fan site" is being used. She's just stopped using that site now. The link is merely proof that it was indeed her own site when it was up. Paul B (talk) 17:28, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

What the IP fails to mention is that this was not just a fan-made site, it was an official fan site, that is, it was created, administered and maintained by the subject of the biography, Melissa Joan Hart. Therefore it is a valid

WP:PRIMARY and reliable for the biographical information that is cited in the article. Elizium23 (talk

) 16:03, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

WHOIS lookup on the domain mellyjhart.com (which still to this day redirects to melissajoanhart.ning.com) shows that the domain is registered to one Melissa Wilkerson with an address at Grand Central Station, NYC. Elizium23 (talk) 16:21, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Uh . . . Melissa Wilkerson??? That's an utterly meaningless comment. And mellyjhart.com is a dead link; do you make this stuff up as you go along? 75.177.156.78 (talk) 16:27, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

The ning.com site is up, but the one for MJH is down. But going through archive.org does show a site that claims to be written by MJH herself. The problem is that given BLP, connecting the message of a verified twitter account to make the claim she made the site is really really really on the cusp - I would completely avoid it still if at all possible. --MASEM (t) 17:15, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

It seems much more straightforward than that. Her verified account on twitter repeatedly links to the old website which she refers to as her website. The domain is registered to Melissa Wilkerson (her married name) and her current website links to the old one. I see no grounds for any real doubt about this except some kind of hyper-scepticism without any evidence to support it. All I see from the IP by way of argument is sneering and taunting. Paul B (talk) 18:20, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

But then this begs the question - why did she take down or let that ning site expire? In terms of BLP, it's a ten-foot pole situation that I would stay far away, that the material that might likely appear that can only be sourced to that website is going to be a BLP problem in the first place. --MASEM (t) 18:22, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't follow you. There may be many reasons why a person takes down a website, or moves to a new one. It doesn't alter the fact that it was her website. There is nothing to suggest that there has been any controversy - or that the website contained something problematic. If it's her website it's her website. If you publish a book, and then move on to a new one it's still your book. Paul B (talk) 18:28, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I can tell you a likely reason: the ning site was overrun by spammers and scammers. It became too much work for her to maintain in a useful state. Also, she found it much more expedient to use Facebook and Twitter as they were designed to reach many more fans than ever wanted to create an account on a second-rate site like ning. What I can't explain is why she didn't try to lock or freeze the site so that the useful information and media could be preserved. But that is how the cookie crumbles. Elizium23 (talk) 18:29, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

And here's an even more likely reason: MJH has nothing to do with the ning.com site. 75.177.156.78 (talk) 18:31, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually, 75.*, there's enough evidence to suggest she did. However with the site down, it does beg what information is essential for her bio article that has to be taken from there, and thus why I would avoid using anything from that site. A question to be asked is what information is so important from the site that has to be included? --MASEM (t) 18:35, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Comment I have several observations:

1. We must not assume websites that claim to be "official" or written in the first person are indeed authored by the claimed person. Celebrities are easy targets and official sites need to be substantiated.
2. The problem with substantiating a site such as http://melissajoanhart.ning.com/ is that because it is hosted on a host platform (ning.com) we are unable to check the domain registration against the WHOIS database.
3. However http://www.mellyjhart.com forwards to the dead site http://melissajoanhart.ning.com/. Mellyjhart.com is registered to a Melissa Wilkerson (Melissa Joan Hart is married to Mark Wilkerson).
4. Elizium is also correct about Melissa Joan Hart (or rather a verified Twitter account) linking to the website in a tweet.
5. The address she links to is http://melissajoanhart.ning.com/profiles/blogs/summer-premiere-tonight
6. The website is no longer in operation, but it can be accessed through the Wayback machine: http://web.archive.org/web/20130604211823/http://melissajoanhart.ning.com/profiles/blogs/summer-premiere-tonight
7. The disputed biography link can also be accessed in much the same way: http://web.archive.org/web/20130604210304/http://melissajoanhart.ning.com/page/biography-2

I would say that odds strongly indicate that the site was hers or was at the least authorized by her. However, I think the IP was correct to question it because it isn't obvious at first look. My suggestion would be to add the twitter link to the citation so it is obvious that the website isn't just a fansite. Betty Logan (talk) 18:36, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Would someone please confirm that this link at the Twitter page here (allegedly from MJH) is a dead link? It is when I click it. If it isn't a dead link, please tell me what you see. Thanks. 75.177.156.78 (talk) 20:02, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

The Twitter link works. The ning.com link is dead to me (and with an error report from ning.com, so it's not ning.com being down, but the MJH pages being removed.) I can see what that page was at archive.org: [14], but if the information is about when this show premieres, there are better sites to confirm this (eg [15]. --MASEM (t) 20:11, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, we know that. See my message further up the page (timed at 17:28). We all know it's dead. That's one of the premisses of the debate. Hence Elizium's comment in his/her first message in the thread: "She was creator and administrator of the site from its inception until its demise." Paul B (talk) 21:00, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Is www.albumlinernotes.com considered a

I don't think it would be necessary to link to the website itself. If you're looking for a particular booklet or liner notes there, just type them down and when in the Wikipedia article, just support the content added with Template:Cite AV album notes. prism^△ 16:53, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

But, if the website is not a RS, then it should not be used to support any material in any Wikipedia article. GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 16:58, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

But if it just contains scans of album booklets (and after verifiying that they are the real booklets) they can be used. For example I could do what I advised you to do in the last comment by scanning a booklet and uploading its photos to some image-hosting website, like Tinypic. But I wouldn't be using Tinypic, if you understand me... prism^△ 17:04, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Okay; I think I see what you mean, but the liner notes that I am trying to source (Pet Sounds 1993 CD version) are not scanned at the website, they have been transcribed, and the website must be a

WP:RS in order for me to cite to its transcriptions. GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs}

) 17:17, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Gotcha... I've tried to find the booklet on Discogs however there are no scans of it (the 1993 version, both Japanese and American), just a scan of the CD which says where it was remastered. If that helps, though, click this. (Discogs is considered an RS, as it is used on the FA 4 (Beyoncé album). prism^△ 17:23, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

What? Discogs is certainly not a reliable source. It's user-generated. From their "about us" page: The heart of Discogs is a user-built database of music. More than 191,000 people have contributed some piece of knowledge, to build up a catalog of more than 4,900,000 recordings and 3,300,000 artists. We're far from done and you can contribute too! Discogs also offers the ability to catalog your music collection, wantlist, and share your ratings and reviews. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:12, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

So, is it acceptable to cite www.albumlinernotes.com? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 16:26, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Looks like it's just some guy's self-published website. I've got no reason to doubt the website's veracity, but I don't think it would count as reliable. I guess I'd treat it like any other user-generated database: a good place to start research but not a resource that I would cite as a reference. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:33, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

It appears to be a large collection of copyrighted material. Therefore, linking in any way to this site would fall under

WP:LINKVIO policy. I would say this cannot be used or linked under any circumstance. Elizium23 (talk

) 17:51, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I thought about that, but my research (which consists of a few lazy Google searches) does not indicate that this is an actual concern. Basically, liner notes are credits, and the RIAA has been pushing for more visibility of liner notes. I found a few stories (which I am too lazy to link; ask and I'll find them again) that the RIAA was trying to find a way to link MP3 files and liner notes together. This relieved my fears that liner notes are something to be hidden away and protected. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:21, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I want someone to edit the page 2002 Gujarat riots backed by these references : [16] [17] [18] [19] , [20] and these [21], [22] [23] [24][25]from reliable reputed Indian Media websites India Today The Times of India The Indian Express Hindustan Times Deccan Herald

These references are not part of this article right now.

The section Criminal Prosecution and Attack on Hindus needs overhaul 112.79.39.94 (talk) 17:32, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Comment; This editor has clearly got some axe to grind. The IP appeared out of nowhere to report myself and another editor to ANI, thus indicating that it is an old user who does not wish to disclose their identity. At ANI they were told this was a content dispute, and asked to come here. What they neglect to mention is that the information they wish to put in is already in the article, sourced to excellent academic sources. The IP continues to insist that "reputed Indian media" are better sources than academia, which is directly contradictory to RS policy. If somebody will explain that to them, I would be eternally grateful. Vanamonde93 (talk) 19:16, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

The references i have presented are from reliable sources and related to the topic. Only because they are not mentioned in a book written by someone from USA doesn't make them unreliable. I hope everyone understands that

Exclusive use of academic resources are okay for historical events like French Revolution  : but not for modern events like Arab Spring which requires Media sources also. I hope you get the idea.

Even the current version of the page 2002 Gujarat riots have references from the same souces that I have presented above like Timesofindia, india today. So you are saying that only those references should be used which supports a biased viewpoint112.79.36.24 (talk) 02:27, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Diora Baird (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Regarding the article for Diora Baird, a couple editors (Dan1025 and Spanneraol) have changed "Partner" to "Spouse" in the infobox and changed "boyfriend" to "husband" in the article prose. The latest editor stated in their edit summary that she has said that Jonathan Togo is her husband on her Facebook page but did not know how to cite that. I searched on Facebook to see if I could find her profile and found several. Once Spanneraol gave me the link to her actual profile page, I couldn't verify the information since it appears that she only shares her relationship status with friends. So, is this source considered reliable? I would think so considering it's her own profile but the fact that you have to be friends with her on Facebook to verify it makes me question that. Note: I've looked elsewhere on the net and couldn't find a reliable source that says that they married. Just a bunch of fan pages and such. I would have thought People magazine would pick up something like this. Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 05:41, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

She probably isnt a big enough celebrity for mainstream mags to pick up on her marriage. I'm actually surprised at how hard it has been to verify her marriage outside of so-called self-published sources.. but I would think her listing herself as married counts as a reliable source. Spanneraol (talk) 15:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Just found a posting by Jonathan on his Instagram account [26] that confirms they are married, that one isnt private. Spanneraol (talk) 15:38, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

The

Are you worried that these archives might not be honestly representing what they've archived? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:36, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm worried that editors are confused by them, rather than immediately deleting them and warning the persons adding them. --

talk

) 23:38, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

So, I'm thinking that we either recommend specific archives, or just that we only use archives with a history and reputation for accurately archiving internet pages. --

Article: List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Ref: Steven Newton (2012-04-30). "Voices: Defending science: The link between creationism and climate change". EARTH Magazine. Retrieved 2014-04-20.

Article content: "Interest in such scientists has been increased by attempts to compile lists of dissenting scientists, including a minority report to the US Senate by Marc Morano, another by Arthur B. Robinson, which is often known as the Oregon Petition, and another by the Heartland Institute, all three of which have been criticized on a number of grounds."

Discussion: Here, consisting of a few comments beginning at 18:16, 25 April 2014

The reference is a proposed addition to the end of the content quoted above, specifically criticism of the Oregon Petition. The relevant info from the reference is:

"Having failed to convince the scientific community of the credibility of their views, both creationists and climate change deniers have taken their case to the public in a way that distorts and misrepresents the nature of science."

"Take petitions, for example. Creationists maintain a “Dissent from Darwin” list of several hundred Ph.D.s who have signed a statement encouraging “careful examination of the evidence” for what is vaguely termed “Darwinian theory”; climate change deniers have the so-called Oregon Petition, with more than 31,000 signers endorsing a statement denying that there is any “convincing evidence” that the human release of greenhouse gases will cause “catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate.”"

"Such petitions convey the misleading impression that science is a popularity contest. Whether evolution and climate change are good science is, ultimately, a matter of evidence, not of who can amass more signatures. But that’s not the way deniers portray it."

The author is Steve Newton of NCSE(NCSE profile)

The concern is that the reference is an op-ed, and may fail

Nope, the concern is that the reference simply isn't needed, and that you haven't made an argument as to why it should be used. There are already references for the sentence that you reference above in the article, and there is consensus that it shouldn't be used. Another concern is that you simply want it in the article because you want to couple "climate scepticism" with "evolution denial", which is a

WP:BLP concern - not a reliable source one. --Kim D. Petersen

01:55, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree, RS is not the crux of the issue. Only one editor in a very, very extended conversation has brought up this op-ed as a Reliable Source issue. This is not the proper forum for this content discussion. Capitalismojo (talk) 02:19, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I was planning on taking this to NPOVN next. As I pointed out, I want to be sure we have this resolved first. --

talk

) 02:59, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

It's moot. There are already six refs for that section's language. There is no apparent support and considerable resistance to this proposed edit, regardless of RS issues. What could be seen as forum shopping isn't a solution. Capitalismojo (talk) 18:21, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Please leave this discussion to those who want to address the concerns here. Thanks! --

talk

) 00:38, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

This ref is titled "comment" on the site. It is an opinion piece or column. It is reliable for the opinion of the author. Capitalismojo (talk) 14:49, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Ordinarily, one should be wary of using opinion pieces in BLP articles. Capitalismojo (talk) 14:51, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, those are the concerns. Any thoughts on the specific publication, the author, the author's affiliations, or the reliability of the quoted information? --

talk

) 15:23, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

My take: The publication itself is generally a reliable for such information. While it is an op-ed, the author is speaking directly for

Since there is no description (byline etc) of him speaking directly for the NSCE your take is incorrect. The piece is signed "Steven Newton" and does not in any way describe who Steven Newton is or why he would speak directly for the NSCE, thus it is entirely an inferrence on your part. Had it been an NSCE piece, then it would be signed with NCSE or had Newtons credentials attached to show that he was speaking in this aspect. --Kim D. Petersen 07:46, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Given that NSCE highlighted the article (as already pointed out on the talk page), and he is clearly speaking for NSCE:

What do creationists and climate change deniers have in common? Over the past few years, this riddle has been on our minds a lot at the National Center for Science Education, a nonprofit that has fought for more than a quarter-century to defend the teaching of evolution in the public schools. Now, we’re expanding to defend the teaching of climate change — and with it, science in general.

I think we're safe. --

talk

) 18:30, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Is this author speaking for National Center for Science Education?

Given that he says he is, that he works for NCSE, and that NCSE highlighted the article in question, I'd say that he is indeed speaking for NCSE rather than just himself. --

Connecticut Public Television did a video article on Slater Memorial Museum. Their official website links to the article on their official YouTube channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcNQZtp2rSk). YouTube is not normally considered a reliable source so I am unsure if I can use it for stating how part of the museum's collection was acquired by Slater on his "Grand Tour" around the world via ship. If I cannot use it as a reliable source, is it permissible to use the YouTube link in the external links section? 71.234.215.133 (talk) 12:25, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

The usual problems are not an issue here since being a official channel removes the usual copyright concerns (the main issue with most Youtube videos). The only real issue I can see would be whether or not Connecticut Public Television is a reliable source for this fact and that is something I have no idea about.--67.70.140.89 (talk) 02:23, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

It is unlikely that anything of note seen on YouTube could not be found on a reliable source, this would avoid using possibly unreliable videos as a source it just means a little more digging around for the facts. MilborneOne (talk) 13:56, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

YouTube is "not normally considered a reliable source" because most of its videos are independently user-generated and/or copyright violations. YouTube is a publication method so the reliability of the videos therein depend on the reputation of the publishers. In this case, a video professionally produced by CPT is as reliable on YouTube as it would be seen on-air in a broadcast. There is no difference made by the media or method of broadcast on its reliability. Elizium23 (talk) 17:13, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Comments welcome here. SPECIFICO talk 00:18, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello all,

SOURCE: Woroniecki Family in Times Square

ARTICLE:

CONTENT:

In November 2010, according to the article Woroniecki Family in Times Square on Associated Content.com, the Woroniecki family ministered in Times Square, New York City, handing out free music CDs and promoting their website ‘ifanyoneisthirsty.com’. The author writes that the thrust of their message “was that Jesus is alive and that we need to actively seek him out”, adding that despite any controversy, the family seemed to him to be genuine in their efforts to “go all over the world and celebrate life and the living Jesus.”

I was recently told by a Wiki contributor, also editing that article, that blogs or self published articles are never to be used as sources, especially in BLPs, unless they are written by the subject of the BLP. And, having read the appropriate Wikipedia guidelines, I see that is how they lean. However, I also read that "some sources are reliable for statement "X" but unreliable for statement "Y".

IMHO, this source is reliable for the content it was supporting in that it was being used to simply verify that Woroniecki was in New York in 2010 and the author's take on Woroniecki's family and message after his encounter with them. Since the content is under "Current" and the source is not being used to prove/disprove or verify/dispute any controversial or negative/positive statements, beliefs or suppositions and does not contradict any previous statements or sources or make any other claims about Woroniecki that have not been previously stated and sourced, I believe this is a case in which Yahoo Voices may be used as a source. I think, since this is a BLP, this paragraph is helpful in keeping the article from being outdated and irrelevant.

I would appreciate clarification on this issue from any Wikipedia Administrators, especially those experienced in the writing and editing of BLPs.

Thank you!

JesHelpin (talk) 18:41, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Per our policy on

talk

) 01:12, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I concur. Yahoo Voices probably falls in with other contributor sites such as About.com which is not regarded as RS. Betty Logan (talk) 01:39, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_158#Yahoo_Contributor.27s_Network Not a RS in my book. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 02:12, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, sometimes I'm unsure when it comes to using

WP:SPS). See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 16#Huffington Post, Gawker and About.com, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 22#About.com, and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 27#About.com. (I looked these up for a discussion in Talk:Tartine

that also involves reliability of an about.com source.)"

There is nothing to indicate that this author is a "reliable, third party". It is someone with no editorial oversight publishing on a site that does not have a "reputation for fact checking and accuracy"

talk

) 22:16, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

If any random person can write on Yahoo Voices, then it's not a

reliable source. Sairp (talk

) 13:14, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

The WP article in question is Academic bias, where several citations to AQ are being used to claim liberal bias in academia. A similar problem exists with Issues in Law and Medicine, which is harder to find data on but which also appears to come from an opinion-based think tank. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:09, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

The sources in Academic Questions and Issues in Law and Medicine have been cited in peer review journals. The Huffington Post, The Nation and the Weekly Standard all have their own agendas, and yet are cited as reliable sources in Wikipedia. The description given by Rocelese reflects her own bias.--TMD (talk) 21:43, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

The use of the term "Right-wing" is pejorative and not really descriptive of the National Association of Scholars. The admit to be politically conservative but this is no tea party group. That seems to speak to the bias of Roscelese. The real question is that is this a reliable source and regardless of whether it is peer-reviewed or not, there is no evidence that it is a unreliable source. Since Roscelese is making the claim that it is, it seems to me that Roscelese has the responsibility of showing why it is more unreliable than many of the other sources used in Wikipedia. CaptainCS (talk) 22:07, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

The last time I checked, HuffPo etc. weren't lobbying groups. Having a bias and still having a basic reputation for accuracy isn't the same thing as existing to promote a particular bias and having no such reputation for accuracy. FYI, we don't operate to the standard of "it's reliable unless you can prove otherwise"; otherwise, every other personal website and blog out there would be considered reliable. Make the case for its reliability, without resorting to personal attacks, strawmen, and other fallacies. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:45, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Huff post may not do any lobbying but what about A. Huffington herself? She runs the organization behind Huff post. Are you saying that she does no lobbying whatsoever? Is this the standard you want to set up? I am not even sure if National Association of Scholars does any lobbying but we are talking about Academic Questions not the organization behind the journal. Heck, even academic organizations like American Sociological Association do some lobbying from time to time but that does not stop us from using American Sociological Review articles. Sorry but this logic does not hold up unless we are going to apply this lobbying rule to everybody and not simply the journals and organizations you do not seem to like. CaptainCS (talk) 01:21, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

"

due to highlight the opinions of this group if the journal is not peer-reviewed, but that can be solved via an RfC. Bickering about each others' biases certainly isn't going to help anything. NinjaRobotPirate (talk

) 04:19, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Note: [27] lists the journal in question as "peer-reviewed". [28] ditto. And a host of other lists of peer-reviewed journals. Springer is generally considered an RS publisher of such journals. It is not up to us to question what reliable source clearly state - in this case that the journal is, indeed, refereed and peer-reviewed. Collect (talk) 12:44, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

• I do find it intriguing that the journal webpage doesn't contain the assertion that the journal is peer-reviewed. It's also instructive to look at an actual article: this doesn't strike me as the sort of thing that would be the result of peer review. At best, these things are probably best considered equivalent to op-eds -- thus perhaps useful for noting the opinions of the authors, but not for statements of fact. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:03, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

You are correct in that bickering gets us nowhere. I made the comparison to Huff Post to show how unrealistic the new criteria was. But to provide positive evidence of AQ here are a few links to academic citations of articles written in AQ. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=12779448875812919896&as_sdt=5,44&sciodt=0,44&hl=en, http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=10722867667352071428&as_sdt=5,44&sciodt=0,44&hl=en, and http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=5036649046675304332&as_sdt=5,44&sciodt=0,44&hl=en. I know from my readings that many of the citations are treated as studies within literature reviews. Whether AQ is officially peer reviewed or not it appears that academics take the work in it seriously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptainCS (talk • contribs)

I've tried to check some of these - the first I found only cited the AQ article to severly criticise it [29], the second actually was not even citing AQ, but an article by Jürgen Habermas with the same title [30]. That does not give me much faith in the power of these links to support the quality of AQ. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:47, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

But whether it's peer reviewed does make a big difference in how *we* can use it. It's obvious to me that their articles are extended opinion pieces. If that's wrong -- if it can be shown that there is in fact a process of peer review -- then we wouldn't to treat it as a source that merely offers people a platform for expressing opinions. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:46, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and it's definitely being used as though it were a real source and not an op-ed. Check out the article. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:11, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

If you want to get Academic Questions disqualified, then you will need to show that it is less reliable than the sources that get cited, such as Huffington Post. If HuffPo is legitimate, how much more so with this one?--TMD (talk) 16:55, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

It always depends on what a source is used for. The HuffPo is ok for attributed opinions and movie reviews, not for science articles. I'd tend to go with Nomoskedasticity to not use AQ for questions of fact, but only for attributed opinion (and then only if the opinion is notable). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:50, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

There are some opinion pieces in AQ and some research in it. The research has been treated by scholars, as I have shown above, as viable work worthy of attention by scholars. Researchers have tested the results of some of this research in attempts to support or refute this work. I have more confidence in AQ than in Huff Post and some of the other sources used in Wikipedia. Unless there is evidence to the contrary we should treat it as a source and each article should be evaluated for whether it is an opinion piece or new research to be treated accordingly. CaptainCS (talk) 17:42, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

uninvolved views?

So far, the only people responding above (apart from me) are already involved with the article. I'd like to invite other uninvolved views in this section. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:21, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Um -- last I checked, I have been uninvolved here - or else I am chopped liver <g>. The source is peer reviewed pre RS sources stating that it is peer-reviewed, and any further argumentation is of nil value here. Collect (talk) 23:49, 19 May 2014 (UTC)b

Uninvolved editor here... We can't answer the generic question "Is X a reliable source". There is no such thing as a 100% unreliable source... and no such thing as a 100% reliable source. Reliability depends on the specific context in which the source is being cited. What we can answer is the more specific question: "Is X a reliable source when used in context Y"... so, please reformulate the question to give us that context. Blueboar (talk) 18:05, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Just in case that's not clear enough, what you need to do is to say, "Here is the exact statement that I want to put in this exact section of this exact article, and here is the exact source (specific article, not just the journal in general) that I want to cite". WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:31, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me? I'm not an involved editor. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:01, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

If used (and we do need to know what specific purpose we are talking about to decide the 'if') I agree that it should only be used to state the opinions of specific named authors and not for statements of fact.

talk

) 10:21, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

It's used for a number of claims of fact, attributed to an author as though a research study. "George Yancey’s research is particularly notable since he finds that academics in a variety of disciplines are open to discriminating against fundamentalists, evangelicals and to a lesser extent Republicans." "However, social conservative academics were found to work in lower status academic institutions relative to their professional achievements. Yancey also argues that the label of Republican or Christian may not be enough to trigger bias but those seen as strongly conservative in their political ideology or religious theology may garner discrimination and prejudice.[17] Furthermore, evidence of academic bias appears to be stronger in the social sciences and humanities than in the natural sciences.[6][14] Such findings indicate that if academic bias exists then it does so within a given cultural context." "On the other hand, the willingness of academics to discriminate against colleagues indicate little appetite for such discrimination unless the target is religiously or politically conservative." (this last in particular is obvious original synthesis aimed at discrediting a source which talks about bias based on race, sex.) –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:02, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

• This is a partisan journal from a partisan think-tank. It may perhaps be useful to illustrate a partisan viewpoint on a topic, with proper attribution (per
  WP:RSOPINION). It is a not suitable source for statements of fact presented in Wikipedia's voice. And the excerpts cited by Roscelese immediately above are clearly inappropriate, as they are evidently editorial attempts to persuade rather than neutral encyclopedic writing. MastCell ^Talk
  23:20, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Well... to play devil's advocate, being partisan does not necessarily make a source unreliable... after all, highly respected science journals tend to be fairly "partisan" when it comes to the topic of, say, creationism. However, I would agree that material taken from this source should probably be phrased as opinion and attributed. Blueboar (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually, reputable science journals are generally silent on creationism, for the simple reason that it's not science. Insofar as science journals speak to the political topic of teaching creationism in public schools, they do so in the setting of editorial/opinion pieces and should be clearly attributed as such. Academic Questions is not a scientific journal; it deals with political topics and does so from a clear partisan standpoint. I didn't say it was categorically "unreliable". I agree with you that it is potentially useable in limited circumstances when properly attributed as opinion, per

WP:RSOPINION. MastCell ^Talk

03:27, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

It seems troublesome to me that there is a painting of a broad brush. As I pointed out above there is a mix of opinion pieces and research in Academic Questions. The links I pointed to above indicate that many scholars take the research in it seriously enough to interact with AQ in their work. It seems to me that we should be more careful to look at particular articles than to make this attempt to throw the baby out with the bathwater. In fact in a haste to judge I notice in Roscelese's comment a conflation of an article in AQ with a citation of a book from an academic press. These are the type of mistakes that are made when we paint with too broad a brush. CaptainCS (talk) 14:57, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Is this article Nuland's cookies as illustration of West's 'policy of non-interference' in Ukraine reliable for the following statement?

In December 2013, Russian Prime Minister Dmitri Medvedev criticised her(Nuland's) support for Ukraine's Euromaidan anti-government protests as interference in the affairs of a sovereign state.

--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 14:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, although since I don't know what article you are talking about, it's harder to say whether the information is relevant. Voice of Russia should be taken with caution as a source, but it is going to be reliable for attributed comments like this. Formerip (talk) 17:34, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Section blanking[31][32] at the Victoria Nuland article. This revert claimed that "VoR is not reliable" as part of its basis for removing the aforementioned text.

There are related threads

1. Talk:Victoria_Nuland#BLP_restart
2. Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Victoria_Nuland_and_Robert_Kagan
   --Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 17:45, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Surely there would be a better source for this than a probably-biased state broadcasting agency. Nick-D (talk) 10:16, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Conversely, if they are closely associated with the state, maybe that is the reason they are the main news agency that Medvedev talks to, making them the only news media source to publish the quoted statements.

Here is another source, for example, that reports a broader criticism of a similar nature related to Russia and US funding of NGO's vis-a-vis interference in the internal affairs (of a sovereign state). The article only refers to a post on the Russian Foreign Ministry website, however.

The Russian Foreign Ministry on Saturday posted a statement on its website slamming the US State Department’s stated intent to continue funding non-governmental organizations in Russia as “interfering.”
“We view the declaration made by the official representative of the State Department, Victoria Nuland, that the United States will continue financing individual NGOs within Russia via intermediaries in third countries, bypassing Russian law, as open interference in our internal affairs” the statement reads.[33]

but no direct quote of Medvedev. For article purposes, that would suffice, but the dismissal of VoR for the Medvedev quote seems inappropriate vis-a-vis policy.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 10:32, 20 May 2014, 07:28, 21 May 2014‎ (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)

hedge your bets. --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 01:06, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy, I suggest you re-read the threads then, as this regards the dismissal of a single source and the attribution of a statement by a prime minister. The other thread is encompasses a much broader scope, and does not even address this issue.

If you have any input regarding the assertion specific assertion made in an edit summary that "VoR", that would be welcome and productive. The matters addressed on the other thread Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Victoria_Nuland_and_Robert_Kagan have pretty much already been resolved. This thread is still alive with respect to the possibility of restoring the quote (or an approximation thereof) to the Nuland article.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 08:47, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

As always, use of the source is what is important -- the use in a BLP makes an implicit claim about Nuland for which Voice of Russia is ill-suited. It states as a "fact" that she "supported anti-government protests" and ascribes this as a fact stated by a person. This is a stretch - it might work in an article about the Ukraine protests (not ascribing any impropriety to Nuland as a living person), but it is a weak source for that claim in a BLP. The most we could do is say "Medvedev said 'she supported anti-government protests'" but the wording presented goes a step too far in assertions about the living person. Collect (talk) 11:51, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Collect, for expressing my concerns so succinctly. I am fully aware of the overall issues at stake here, and am seeing this as an endgame. That which can be considered to be acceptable in a particular article does not automatically establish some form of carte blanche for use in other articles/contexts (particularly when we are dealing with a BLP). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:46, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

While I don't necessarily mind your bringing up BLP i this context, the original dismissal of the text was no made with recourse to BLP. As stated by FormerIP above, the source is deemed reliable for the attributed statement.

I don't really get the allusions to an "end game" here, but this is of course related to the Ukraine crisis, just from another angle not involving the interception phone conversation. This relates to Nuland's actual presence on the scene supporting activists, etc.

If the basis for dismissing VoR because it has close ties to the state were valid, that would mean that Wikipedia doesn't quote any statements by Russian officials, including the PM, in this case. That obviously is not a desirable scenario, and that is why this problems relating to this specific source were brought here. Note that there is no OR related assertions or anything else, just that "VoR isn't reliable".

@Collect:Your pronouncements about the actual text are somewhat vague and not much help, "the wording presented goes a step too far in assertions about the living person". The source fully attributes Mededev's comment criticizing her support of the anti-government protests as interence in the affairs of a sovereign state. It is an attributed quote.

Do you disagree with the facticity of the attributed statement? Medvedev makes clear assertions, and I don't think that anyone rejects the validity of the assertions. Or do You? Do you reject that "Nuland supported anti-government protesters" and handed out cookies to protesters? That is easily corroborated, with video to boot, I believe.

In December 2013, Russian Prime Minister Dmitri Medvedev criticised her(Nuland's) support for Ukraine's Euromaidan anti-government protests as interference in the affairs of a sovereign state.

It seems like a very straightforward and brief statement of a widely held view in Russia, but coming from the prime minister affords it much more weight than normal, I would think. And again, you address the source as being VoR, but this is a statement entirely atributed to the Russian Prime Minister Medvedev. You state

the use in a BLP makes an implicit claim about Nuland for which Voice of Russia is ill-suited

but don't give any rationale as to why VoR is ill suited. And then there are the phone conversations, which have been stabilized on the article by removing OP-problematized points. There is nothing in the article that would vaguely challenge or undermine Medvedev's assertions, so it only seems to me that some people object to Medvedev's characterization of her activities as "interference in the affairs of a sovereign state". That is the official US line (that the USA was not interfering in the internal affairs of another state), of course, but Medvedev and Putin obviously don't agree with that, and I've read many analysis and opinion pieces in American publications that also say the same thing. So the attempt to exclude the published statements of the Russian PM would seem to lie in the fact that some people find them to represent a politically inconvenient truth, while making recourse to a specious claim that VoR is not reliable.

Accordingly, I can't see any justification for not using the text as is, but would like to discuss this further and look forward to you responses.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 02:09, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

This board is for answering questions -- when one gets an answer one does not like, it is a waste of time using this board -- it is like saying "I want your opinion if and only if it is exactly the same as my own" which does not work. The wording you seek states as a fact in Wikipedia's voice that she "supported anti-government protests" and we can not do that on the basis of a Voice of Russia article. As for your ad hom that this is a specious claim that VoR is not reliable I would note that ArbCom has noted your specific battleground use of Wikipedia in the past. I would urgently suggest that using a noticeboard such as

WP:RS/N for such behaviour is not impressing anyone at all. Again -- if you only accept agreement with your position, then you will end up with no one on your side in any issue. Cheers. Collect (talk

) 10:46, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I do not think that you answered the question in terms of policy, just offered some unclear ruminations based on your unclear interpretation. And just now you asserted that the material "states as a fact in Wikipedia's voice that she supported anti-government protests", which of course is not case, because the comment is fully attributed to the Russian PM Medvedev by the source. An attributed statement does not "state as fact in Wikipedia's voice", but you should know that.

Second, you seem to have overlooked the first response on this thread here, which maintained the exact opposite position that you have been insisting on without convincing argument. In counties where there is only state controlled media, for example, the statements included in such publication represent some of the only material available. So, as per FormerIP,

Voice of Russia should be taken with caution as a source, but it is going to be reliable for attributed comments like this

The blanket dismissal of it on the basis of its being closely associated with the state is disputed, and you are making assertions without grounds rather than attempting to support a position in discussion, which is

pointy

, and detracts from the discussion rather than promote it. In other words, above you seem to assert that your own arbitrary pronouncements constititute an authoritative answer to the question posed by this posting, when that is patently false, not to mention tendentious.

Thirdly, regarding the overall content dispute that you continually introduce here, I have posted several sources below that maintain Nuland "supported anti-government protesters", but that is not the issue for this notice board, the issue is whether a the VoR article in question is reliable for the statement attributed to a

public figures. Why would we want to exclude the comments attributed to yet another high-ranking state official, a prime minister, in relation to the issues addressed in the article? --Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑}

10:59, 12:36, 21:18, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Neat -- you appear not to have read what I wrote, or at least not noticed that your form of argumentation here is ill-suited to this noticeboard. I would note that the wording of any claim about a living person is absolutely pertinent as to how any source is used -- you can not claim (effectively) "the part of the claim which is sourced is only the part about the Russian official" when the use of any claim about a living person in Wikipedia's voice must conform to

WP:BOOMERANG heading your way for ad homs on a noticeboard where such attacks are banned. Collect (talk

) 12:50, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

He's also ranting about this at an unrelated AN/I request [34], basically trying to free ride on somebody else's request in order to get his kicks in. I'm getting really sick of this

WP:FORUMSHOPPING.Volunteer Marek (talk

) 13:03, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Corroborating sources:

1. She made clear the United States supported the protesters’ fight
   "The insinuation that the United States incited the people of Ukraine to riot or rebel is patently false," said Nicole Thompson, a State Department spokeswoman.
2. Western Diplomats Are Going to Disappoint Ukraine’s Protesters, Time Magazine, Deceber 13, 2013

   The hand of U.S. diplomacy swept down over Ukraine this week with an odd bit of American largesse — a plastic bag of bread. Victoria Nuland, the assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, bore the bag on Wednesday into the crowd of protesters camped out in the middle of the capital, Kiev. As her circle of bodyguards parted, Nuland held it out to an elderly demonstrator in a big blue parka. “Good to see you!” the diplomat chirped. “We’re here from America. Would you like some bread?” Smiling politely, the woman demurred, took a step backward and waved the generosity away.

3. [35]
4. video
5. first encounter with this site--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 03:21, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of the reliability of the source (it's not reliable), this is the kind of inane stuff that does not belong in a BLP.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:03, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

usgovernmentspending.com

1. Source: http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/ a project of http://www.christopherchantrill.com/ (and Chantrill may be User:ChrisChantrill; a note re the RSN will be posted to Chantrill's talk page). 2. Articles & Content (footnotes are generally for the dollar figures):

• [36] Chart –used in Government spending
• 2011 Oklahoma state budget – footnote 18
• Comparison of Canadian and American economies – footnotes 10 & 11
• Jon Huntsman, Jr.
  – footnote 34
• Kansas state budget (2008–09) – footnote 12 (multiref for a table)
• Reaganomics#Fiscal consequences – footnote 54
• Federal Involvement in US Education#Initial Federal Action
  – footnote 4
• List of government budgets by country#Estimating budgets
  – footnote 3

Seems to me that usgovernmentspending is a blog and not RS. Input requested. – S. Rich (talk) Note: strike out indicates the reference has been removed from the articles. – S. Rich (talk) 17:01, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Looks to me like it's

RS. LK (talk

) 05:02, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

The various usages for the website have been removed from the articles and some were tagged as cn. The articles are now on my watchlist, so I shall discuss if there is a desire to use the website on any of them. As the usages are removed, I've stricken the footnote numbers. I shall await archiving of this page. – S. Rich (talk) 03:08, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Bleacher Report

Is Bleacher Report, a website full of self-published content, reliable? RealDealBillMcNeal (talk) 15:16, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Goal.com

Is Goal.com, a football rumour site, a reliable source? RealDealBillMcNeal (talk) 15:17, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Specifically which kind of rumors? Transfer rumors? LRD NO (talk) 16:03, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Padmanabhaswamy temple

I have reverted this edit: diff as per my judgement the sources didn't qualify RS criteria.

I also reverted a previous, similar edit of the same User:SumerianPrince: diff, where he used a different random website, which I challenged at the talkpage regarding RS.see Discussion

Apparently the user is of the opinion that a site must be listed at the spamlist to be disqualified as a reliable source, which is quite nonsensical: diff

It would be great if someone clears the scene and identifies the provided sources correctly. --ThaThinThaKiThaTha (talk) 17:20, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Sources for criticism of a "controversial" music video

I'm currently working on "Bounce (Iggy Azalea song)" and I have found quite a bunch of reliable sources for the music video's positive reviews. However, the video which was shot in Mumbai, has been noted to be controversial and accused of cultural appropriation - a fact I can't really portray in the article without the following sources:

• Auto Straddle
• One Point Four
• Zimbio
• The Aerogram
• Schema Magazine

I'm quite unfamiliar with these sources and am unsure if they are reliable enough to make use of? Some seem to be from outlets/websites in India. Which of these sources are reliable enough to use? Which come across as bias? I don't think I'm experienced enough to make the call, lol. Like I said, the sources will be of high value to the article.—CoolMarc 17:18, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Schema Magazine looks reliable and like a serious-minded outlet, with what looks like some academic aspirations, established for 10 years[37] and what looks like a solid editorial team:[38] The other outlets all seem less solid, for different reasons, but might be acceptable depending on usage. As for your question of bias, these are all opinion pieces/analyses from a particular point of view, and should be clearly attributed as opinions in the prose. Opinions with a point of view can be included, as long as

WP:CSECTION in mind here. Siawase (talk

) 21:03, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Interview source for List of best-selling Xbox 360 video games

An interview[39] says:

Rob Wright: You released The Orange Box for both the PC and the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 consoles. Were you happy with the business the console versions did, and how did it compare to the game's PC sales?

Doug Lombari: We were very happy with both the Xbox 360 and PS3 sales. I think the Xbox 360 version did just over a million, while the PS3 [released later in December] version did a few hundred thousand copies.

Can "I think the Xbox 360 version did just over a million" be taken as fact? Also a bit worried they spelt his name completely wrong, it's Doug Lombardi.--Vaypertrail (talk) 19:23, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

The only discussion I know about this is Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Sources/Archive 2#Tom's Games--70.49.80.26 (talk) 20:16, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

IJ Review for material on what an MSNBC commentator said

Is this source reliable for including information in the BLP article on Touré about what he said about Holocaust survivors having "white privilege"? Nightscream (talk) 20:55, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Erm, jeez. The tweet's right there, at Touré's twitter feed. So it's true I guess. I guess the question is notability. People tweet a lot. Looking for discussion of that tweet, I'm not finding any mainstream sources. If Time or NBC News picks up on it, you've got a source which is both reliable and shows notability and Bob's your uncle. I'd recommend waiting for a better source, or not including it if one doesn't show up.

If it was just a question of reliability, you could point to the actual tweet, which would be 100% reliable. You can't because we don't use primary sources like that, and an important reason for that is precisely because then it's you, the Wikipedia editor, deciding that it's notable enough to mention.

Looking a bit more, @hope_and_chains appears to devolve to an entity called "Yo, Dat's Racis'!!" (datsracis.com), which I guess is intended to be making fun of supposed African-American dialect, which is pretty obnoxious. So this kind of looks like a low-notability pissing contest between a couple of pretty provocative actors.

Google shows some activity around the tweet, but really pretty much in the right-leaning blogosphere (according to my quick check). IJR Review doesn't have a Wikipedia article (a quick-and-dirty notability check) although they look slick and are more than just one guy blogging. They're certainly a conservative site, so I see them more as part of a partisan echo chamber here which is maybe trying to get this tweet into the realm of general notability but hasn't succeeded yet.

So again, for a contentious passage in a BLP (and even granting that Touré is a provocative person so there's gonna be some contentious passages there), I'd wait for a fairly neutral and highly notable AA or AAA-level source such as the New York Times or something like that. Herostratus (talk) 23:26, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing, but wanted others' thoughts. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 04:39, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

What'cha Reading? for info on comics and comics creators

Is the comics reviews and interview website What'cha Reading? reliable for information like that found in these two articles here and here? This is the bio page for its contributors. Nightscream (talk) 02:19, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Not generally reliable, no. There is no indication of fact-checking or editorial oversight, nor that the contributors qualify as subject experts per

WP:BLPSPS caveats. Though in this case I'm not sure the site is established enough to trust them to render the words of interview subjects accurately. Siawase (talk

) 16:08, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Would it be accepted to include in the External links section? Nightscream (talk) 01:42, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Might be acceptable, per

WP:EL/N. If you could find any sort of external validation, that could be helpful in bolstering reliability, ideally established reliable sources referencing the site, but interview subjects linking to the site (from social media/official site/blog) would also help. Siawase (talk

) 11:15, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

is quoting someone's calculations based on four year old outdated information allowed?

1. http://www.vox.com/2014/5/14/5717036/should-we-cover-all-our-roads-with-solar-panels 2. Solar Roadways 3. [40]

• The guy states in the article that he has no information about their newer hexagon panels, but then calculates how ridiculously overpriced it'd be to use their product, based on something he claims they said about an earlier prototype four years before. A single purpose account who is trying to have the article deleted, keeps adding in this information. Should some random guy posting something on an internet only news site, be considered a reliable source for this sort of information? What possible reason is there to include this in the article? Dream Focus 05:10, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with using the Vox article or how it is used in the Solar Roadways' article. Vox is a reliable site, and it is reasonably clear how the Vox author came to a price conclusion inclusing using the cost based on numbers that the Solar Roadway proponents provided in 2010. --MASEM (t) 05:32, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Brad Plumer of Vox is critical about the feasibility of the technology because of the cost. He contends that back in 2010, the company assumed that a 12' by 12' glass panel would cost around $10,000. Using this figure, he estimated that covering the approximately 30,000 square miles (~836 billion square feet) of roads in the U.S. would cost $56 trillion - nearly 20 times the annual Federal budget. [5] As of 2014, Solar Roadways has a new design and they are recalculating costs.

• He doesn't know what the cost will be, so how can he be critical about it? Those numbers provided in 2010 were about a previous older version of the technology, not relevant to what has been developed since then. I doubt they'd get multiple government grants if they weren't developing the technology to be more reasonably priced. Dream Focus 05:45, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
  • For one , there is no new updated cost of the technology (the Solar Roadways group states its trying to work that out), so using the last best reported number is reasonable. Yes, via the SBIR, they are likely trying to figure how they could be made cheaper, but I can tell you, having been involved with SBIRs, you are going to start with a figure that you think is your best initial guess of cost of the item at full-scale, volume production as opposed to the one-offs they likely will be making during the SBIR process, as to be able to win the award. As they go through the SBIR they will be able to identify where they can use cheaper but effective materials, and improved production methods, and cheaper photovoltiacs, as well as updated 2014 pricing, and that number will come down, but I doubt it is going to come down by an order of magnitude, knowing what the average pricing of solar (+ all auxiliary equipment) baselines as, given that there are numerous, numerous studies on the cost of solar. (Going from rough metrics : roof-mounted panels are ~$200 a shot covering 4 ft square (with all mounting), so 12'x12' here would need 9 of them, or $1800 alone, and that's just 1/3rd of the cost after considering inverters, etc. So a traditional system this size could be $5000-ish, hence why $10,000 is not a far off number).
  • Even if the company puts out a different number later, Plumer's analysis is still valid in that it simply taking road area, dividing it by the area per panel, multiplying it by the cost per panel, to ocme out with a rough order of magnitude value to say how much this costs, and compares it to the average budgetary numbers for roads, to give an impression of size and cost to the average reader. The calculation is linear on the cost of the panels, so even if the company can say it will take $5000 per 12x12 panel, the end number as calculated by Plumer still ends up in the billions. So no, there's no issue here, really. It is a completely valid criticism of the technology based on all best possible data reported at the present. --MASEM (t) 13:31, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

• • This case seems to case of editorial discretion. Plumer's analysis seems to qualify (formally) as reliable source, however that doesn't necessarily imply that you have to use it. If the editors agree that the information is outdated/problematic for various reasons, they may simply not use it/drop it from the article. However if some editors want to use to use it and there is no consensus for dropping it, they can use it of course s it qualifies as a reliable source. In doubt the whole thing can be case of
    WP:NPOV where the article simply has to describe (several) differing opinions. But note if you want include any explite criticism of Plumer's analysis, that would need to be sourced as well. Without any such source you simply have to live with his analysis and the best you might do is mentioning the new/modified priced in a footnote and making sure Plumer's analysis comes with a date. Such technology analysis should always be described with an explicite date anyhow, as in general they tend to outdate quickly and their actual predictive value is rather low.--Kmhkmh (talk
    ) 15:03, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

HMS Adamant as Reserve Fleet Flagship

The wikipedia article on HMS Adamant is incorrect in stating this ship left Australia in 1950.

She was in fact in reserve at Portsmouth and was mainly used as accommodation for ratings who

maintenance crews on various other ships on reserve certainly in 1948 and 1949 when I was berthed

on her as part of the maintenance crew on K644 HMS Cawsand Bay.

She was certainly employed in this role when I took discharge in November 1949.

Mike Carroll ex Stoker Mech. PKX/830572

I've passed this issue along to

Wikipedia:Wikiproject Ships as I could not verify the material in the article. Mangoe (talk

) 18:02, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

masterstrack.com

If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes. However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp |username}}.

Because

San Diego Union-Tribune, and its on line service Sign On San Diego, Patch Media and timesofsandiego.com. Just as every major newspaper has a blog to disseminate aggregated news items (which wikipedia accepts as reliable sources every day), the editor of this site has chosen the blog format. He gets news, which he documents well, from a wide variety of sources and tips from thousands of users, which would include myself. I have used masterstrack.com as a source for edits on the subject since my earliest days writing articles about the subject, more than 5 years ago, without challenge. Looking back through the history of the site, it looks like there have been close to 30,000 postings since the site moved to the domain and blog format in January 2003. The vast majority of them are pure news, sans commentary. With this very public history available, I don't see any reason why this site should not be treated as a reliable source on the subject it specializes in.Trackinfo (talk

) 00:23, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

• It should be noted that the dispute in question involves an article about a recently deceased person and the
  rules regarding self-published sources differ on these pages. I am not disputing Masterstrack's reliability as a source, just as a source for biographies of living/recently deceased persons - Hirolovesswords (talk
  ) 01:03, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
  • This guideline is about contentious material. Finishing position in an international sports tournament (which is what this website's article is supporting) is clearly not something that could be classed as contentious. This is a non-issue and I'm sure all of us could make better use of our time elsewhere.
    canvassed to this discussion. (diff
    )

The policy is different for biographies of living/recently deceased people and applies to ALL material, not just contentious material. --Hirolovesswords (talk) 17:45, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

The sourced content is not contentious and does not present a problem for the article or subject in terms of

WP:NPOV, WP:Verifiability or WP:No original research (Please see Wikipedia:Wikilawyering #2). I also don't appreciate being labelled a canvassee when I've clearly made the effort to contribute to the discussion and improve the article (improvements in line with the comments of most people in that discussion). SFB

19:37, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

In the end any newspaper is privately published ;-) In this particular case it is one of the very few possible sources for news about a particular field. Besides that it is not really a one person site because any mistake is very rapidly seen by the community of readers and corrected. Weia (talk) 21:49, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Boston Poetry Magazine

Is Boston Poetry Magazine a reliable source for use in the Jim Dunlap article to establish notability?

• Boston Poetry Magazine is hosted at wordpress http://bostonpoetry.wordpress.com/about/
• The article on Jim Dunlap is here

--Bejnar (talk) 03:21, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

• So, does everyone think this is a fine source? --Bejnar (talk) 02:25, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't see that it's has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. I don't think Boston Poetry Magazine has a notable reputation at all at this point, among poets, academics, or other people. It doesn't look like it's an actual magazine. It has a staff of one and other than that it looks like it's just a blog. For notability. I would look to other achievements. __ E L A Q U E A T E 02:43, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Usable?

I'm unsure whether or not this review from Forbes ([41]) is usable as far as notability goes. Normally I know that stuff from the site can be used, but this gives off the impression that it's user generated content akin to iCNN and isn't given any sort of editorial oversight. Other stuff on the author Stan Hieronymus makes it seem like he's a journalist, but the way the article is set up on Forbes just gives off the impression of a blog. Anyone have any input on this?

(｡◕‿◕｡)

07:52, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

It looks like user-generated content. You fill in a form and become a "Contributor", not a Forbes Magazine contributor, but part of a large blog network, populated under the "http://www.forbes.com/sites/" banner. Some of the contributors in this network are practicing blatantly non-journalistic self-promotion, such as this one and this one (picked at random), It's broken down here but it looks like it's trying to have a thousand self-regulating, unpaid or paid when they achieve page hits, blog contributors or "content creators". It looks like a clone of the Huffington Post model at best, iCNN at worst. They say some of the "Contributors" are professional journalists, but there's no sense they're in the majority, or that there's any editorial oversight of the blogs. There are some "Forbes staff" contributions from 50 actual staff reporters mixed in, but they're clearly marked separately as staff contributions. Their policies are behind a sign-up sheet at blogs.forbes.com, and it looks like people probably manage their own blog content once approved, as shown by the non-journalistic stories. It doesn't mean all contributors are bad, but having a blog parked here doesn't look like a strong endorsement that anyone's following a journalistic practice.__ E L A Q U E A T E 19:28, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Having said all that, I think the specific contributor you're asking about may have some notability in the topic and may be treated as an expert in the field, as shown here, here, and here.__ E L A Q U E A T E 19:50, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Blam Entertainment Group reliable ?

Just wondering if Blam1.com is a reliable source in these instances Article=

open channel

) 04:18, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

question about use of primary source

I've made an edit to

Super-spreader regarding what a researcher has said about her study, see second paragraph here

.

The

WP:MEDRS

says this about using a primary source: "The rare edits that rely on primary sources should have minimal WP:Weight, should only describe the conclusions of the source, and should describe these findings clearly so the edit can be checked by editors with no specialist knowledge. In the rare cases when they are used, primary sources should not be cited in support of a conclusion that is not clearly made by the authors. . .see WP:No original research."

You'll see by the sources, that I also added the New York Times and Los Angeles Times articles about the researcher's comments about her study. I believe I've met the requirement WP:Weight, and also the edit does only describe the conclusions of the primary source. I don't base the article on the primary source and I've identified the primary source straight up in the article.

I'd like input from other editors. Thanks. SW3 5DL (talk) 20:38, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

As far as reliability goes... Yes, when you are verifying the fact that "X says Y", a source where X actually does say Y will always be reliable. A quote or close paraphrase is one of the rare situations in which a primary source is actually more reliable than a secondary one. HOWEVER... reliability is not the be all and end all of inclusion. There are other policies and guidelines we have to take into account... especially

WP:DUE WEIGHT. That policy provision (part of our WP:Neutral point of view policy) determines whether we should mention the fact that "X says Y" in the first place. I note that this seems to be the key question that has been raised on the article talk page. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the topic in question to answer a DUE WEIGHT question (and this isn't really the right venue in which to do so.) Blueboar (talk

) 02:54, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Blueboar, on the talk page the reference to the "DUE" is to the value of another source that references an historical event. Not this one. The argument with this source is that it is a primary source. SW3 5DL (talk) 04:22, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Kekoolani

I remember Wikipedia's judgement about

Wikipedia:HISTRS or other policies? Please help. Thank you. --KAVEBEAR (talk

) 05:35, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Is a publication found in a University professor's personal website a Self-Published Source or not?

Hello.

This inquiry is in reference to this edit HERE by User:Hammersbach in the article Fuerzas Armadas de Liberación Nacional Puertorriqueña.

I maintain that Hammersbach's source, the personal (hosted in his own off-University server) website HERE, and therefore its contents (including Hammersbach's cited document HERE), is all SPS. The author and owner of the website is the gentleman HERE, named Antonio de la Cova, a University professor. I presented my reasoning for why that source is an

WP:RS) at the article's Talk Page HERE

.

In the article's talk page HERE fellow Wikipedian User:Hammersbach continues to argue that the website in question is "sound". By the way, the other editor who has been in the discussion is User:Jmundo. He also maintains that Hammersbach's source is not a Reliable Source (see it HERE).

WP:SPS

provides that the only information from Self-published sites that can be (with limitations) considered reliable are claims about the person (De la Cova, in this case) made by the person himself (by De la Cova). Not any other non-autobiographical content such as documents posted in such sites.

So, my question to the community is this: Is that website a Reliable Source or is it Self-Published?. Thanks, Mercy11 (talk) 02:10, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Before I comment on the specific case... I have to note that a source can be both Self-Published and Reliable. The two are not mutually exclusive. Yes, self-published sources have limited use, but they can be reliable within those limitations. As for the specific case... the question I would ask is: does this author qualify for the "Expert Exemption"? Blueboar (talk) 02:26, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Jmundo does not correctly describe Wikipedia policy; primary sources may be used with care. Also, sources that are not independent may be used for certain claims. User:Mercy11 omits a critical part of the self-published source guidance: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so." Omitting this provision in a situation where, superficially, it appears relevant, makes me not want to bother looking into Mercy11's concerns any further. Jc3s5h (talk) 02:35, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Primary sources are not to be used when the material is questionable. The website is not a reliable third party publication and doesn't pass the test of reliability.

WP:SOURCE states that "Editors may also use electronic media, subject to the same criteria." The professor's past experience as convicted felon shows that he has personal interest in the topic. A quick search in Google Scholar will demonstrate that he doesn't meet the "expert exemption". --Jmundo (talk

) 03:20, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

"Primary sources are not to be used when the material is questionable." I don't believe any policy or guideline says that. Yes,

WP:EXCEPTIONAL

does say to use extra caution when a claim supported by a primary or self-published source is challenged, but it doesn't flat-out say primary sources are not to be used when the claim is questioned.

As for the website not being a third-party publication, it is not required that all the sources in an article be third-party publications. It is only necessary that a sufficient number of reliable third-party publications exist to justify having an article on the topic.

Your statement of Wikipedia's policy on sources was "Wikipedia requires secondary/independent sources." That isn't a correct statement of the policy and guidelines. Whether the professor in question has published material that would qualify him as an expert under

WP:SPS is a different question. Jc3s5h (talk

) 03:53, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

This is not a primary/secondary issue. The issue is whether the document is a reliable source. First note that the text was not written by Prof. Antonio de la Cova himself - it is a photocopy of an old document written on a typewriter with no author shown. If it appeared on de la Cova's page without comment we would have to rule it out since then there would be no evidence of genuineness. However, on the page it is presented as the "political position" of FALN. If we are confident that de la Cova wrote (for at least vouches for) that page, we have his word for the genuineness of the document. So then it comes down to whether Antonio de la Cova is himself reliable. I looked him up on Google Scholar as Jmundo suggested, but instead of seeing evidence of unreliability I see a book published by an academic press and several articles in peer-reviewed journals. I even found a peer reviewed article praising his web site. That suggests to me that he is reliable. Zero^talk 14:03, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Style-ology Magazine

An interview from Style-ology Magazine is being offered in two AfD discussions as an indication of notability for an actor and for a movie in which he appeared. I had not heard of this magazine before: it describes itself as "A fashion feast for the eyes of fashion art and articles, with compelling content and exclusive interviews for sophisticated culturally aware readers; a showcase of artistic fashion at its best." [44] I have not yet found any substantial independent information about the magazine. The interview is available online here [45]. The AfDs are Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zachary Laoutides and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Adios Vaya Con Dios. Opinions would be appreciated as to whether this magazine (and specifically this interview) qualifies as an independent reliable source. --Arxiloxos (talk) 20:10, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

• Well, the magazine seems to meet the reliable and independent criteria under
  WP:N for "multiple". Schmidt, ^{Michael Q.}
  22:48, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

POICA & Israel

[46] This anonymously written article with the POV headline "Israeli Colonists Attempts to Open a Road" is being utilized for the claim that Israelis are up to no good. I dispute the reliability of the source but its proponent does not agree. Input requested. Thanks. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 23:51, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Nothing anonymously about it. Written by an organisation that usually publishes very reliable information. --Wickey-nl (talk) 14:14, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Not a reliable source IMO. Self-published material, and a collaboration by two organisations with no obvious credibility. If whoever included it can present some evidence that LRC and ARIJ are at least percieved as credible by other sources, such the UN, that would help. But as it stands, it's just self-published material and hence fails as RS.Mark Marathon (talk) 02:55, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Would the European Union fund it if it were an unreliable organisation that spreads wrong information? What is your opinion based on? Evidence for unreliability? --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:02, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Does any RS dispute the claims in the article? Complaining a Web site is self-published makes no sense. The entire Web is self-published. Howunusual (talk) 18:53, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

It is funded by the EU, and functions on behalf of the EU. This complaint seems frivolous.Howunusual (talk) 19:03, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

It is funded by the EU, but it no way functions on behalf of the EU. There's an explicit disclaimer (which you obviously saw but chose to ignore) right below the mention of Eu funding, which says "The contents of this publication are the sole responsibility of ARIJ & LRC and can in no way be taken to reflect the views of the European Union."

talk

) 17:55, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

That's semantics, and making personal remarks detracts from the conversation. It functions on behalf of the EU in the sense that it provides services to the EU, for which the EU contracts or pays in some way. That's how jobs work. If you hire people, they act on your behalf, but their views don't express yours (unless you hire them to be spokespersons). Howunusual (talk) 20:54, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

"it's just self-published material and hence fails as RS" is not a valid argument in my view. It's not the kind of source referred to by the

WP:WEIGHT > 0 regardless of opinions about or evidence of reliability. Sean.hoyland - talk

19:25, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

From the source in question:

The project, funded by the European Union, aims at inspecting and scrutinizing Israeli colonizing activities in their different forms in the Palestinian West Bank and Gaza, and to disseminate the related information to policy makers in the European countries and to the general public....This website has been produced with the assistance of the European Union.

Howunusual (talk) 19:55, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's part of the EU Partnership for Peace Programme (EUPfP). See here

• Project: Addressing Israeli Actions and its Land Policies in the oPt
• Summary: The project monitors, analyses and documents all Israel’s actions and land policies in Palestine, with the aim to disseminate the collected information to key stakeholders, and advocate for a better environment for peace.

Sean.hoyland - talk 07:06, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree that notability (being noteworthy) is a relevant criterium. To be honest, POICA/ARIJ is never my first choice of source, but often it is the sole source on some subject. If common sources fail to report, or fail to report balanced, we have to fall back on less common ones. Neutral sources are virtually non-existent in the IP-conflict. --Wickey-nl (talk) 11:03, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't really know how best to deal with the all too common case of specialist NGOs like this one being the sole source on a subject, especially given that the information they produce is often not at all controversial from a mainstream, non-partisan perspective, and only appears controversial to the tiny minority of people on the planet who support the presence and building of Israeli settlements and the associated infrastructure in Palestine. But we need a practical method to decide whether something should be included or excluded for sources like this and whether something is noteworthy is the only thing I can think of. I don't buy Brewcrewer's "utilized only for the anti-Israel perspective" argument on the talk page. Neutrally reporting the facts is an "anti-Israel perspective" nowadays to many Israel supporters. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:01, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

The first basic requirement of a reliable source is that it have some sort of modicum of objectivity. Their headline "Israeli Colonists Attempts to Open a Road" says it all. This anonymous POV written unsupported claim has zero creditability. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:02, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think so. I think the first basic requirement is that someone that matters cares. I'm not sure there is such a thing as objectivity in this context and even if there were, I don't think it's our concern most of the time (excluding overtly unreliable sources, attack pieces etc). Many people say the media, sources in general, are biased against Israel. They might be right in a sense, but even if it were the case, the way Wikipedia defines neutrality means that it doesn't matter to us. If there is systemic bias, it becomes our neutral. Regarding the language, I know what you mean, it seems biased to our ears, but they're not wrong. Settlements are colonies, settlers are colonists and the processes associated with building the settlements is a kind of colonization. It's just that those terms aren't used as much or as self-confidently as they were before 1948 by the people who wanted to settle in Palestine. I'm not sure it matters very much. It should be the boring facts rather than the colorful language that makes it into the encyclopedia, if someone that matters cares. I don't really see the language as any more problematic that the language of the Israeli mainstream media that tends to routinely ignore Palestinian identity (unless something bad happens) and understandably takes sides in the conflict when it talks about people who use weapons/violence to achieve their objectives. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:42, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

brewcrewer, please give some links to the actual proposed use of the source. In general, the source is fine, and the particular news report you're complaining about has no obvious POV. Howunusual (talk) 16:44, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Sure no problem, but first tell me what your prior user name was and how you wound up at this thread. Thanks. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:05, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

This reaction suggests that brewcrewer for some reason choose not to tell that it is about Worshippers Way. --Wickey-nl (talk) 10:15, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

reliable sources for Georgism

Are henrygeorge.org etc. a reliable source per

WP:RS

for the claim

Compulsory [[land value tax|location value fees]], [[severance tax|severance fees]], and [[pollution tax|pollution fines]] are the most common georgist policies, but some geoists, particularly geo-mutualists and geo-anarchists, prefer voluntary [[value capture]] systems that rely on methods such as non-compulsory or self-assessed location value fees, [[Community land trust|community land trusts]]<ref>{{cite web|last=Curtis|first=Mike|title=The Arden Land Trust|url=http://www.henrygeorge.org/mikerent.htm|accessdate=30 May 2014}}</ref>, and purchasing [[Covenant (law)|land value covenants]].<ref>{{cite web|last=Adams|first=Martin|title=Sharing the Value of Land: The Promise of Location Value Covenants|url=https://medium.com/@martin_unitism/sharing-the-value-of-land-18066c10ac50|accessdate=30 May 2014}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|last=Kent|first=Deirdre|title=Land and Money Reform Synergy in New Zealand|url=http://smarttaxes.org/2012/07/24/land-and-money-reform-synergy-in-new-zealand/|publisher=Smart Taxes|accessdate=30 May 2014}}</ref><ref>http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/wrigley-adrian_location-value-covenants-2010-06.pdf </ref><ref>http://www.systemicfiscalreform.org/Home/location-value-covenants</ref><ref>{{cite web|last=Foldvery|first=Fred|title=Geoanarchism A short summary of geoism and its relation to libertarianism.|url=http://www.anti-state.com/geo/foldvary1.html|accessdate=29 May 2014}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|last=Coats|first=Jock|title=Geo-mutualism: the explanation|url=http://jockcoats.me/geo_mutualism_explanation|accessdate=29 May 2014}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|title=Geo-Mutualism|url=http://geo-mutualism.evolutionofconsent.com/|accessdate=29 May 2014}}</ref>

Comprising henrygeorge.org, medium.com, smarttaxes.org, cooperativeindividualism.org, systemicfiscalreform.org, anti-state.org, jockcoats.me and geo-mutualism.evolutionofconsent.com as the sites in question.

None appear at first glance to be independent reliable sources for defining the movement at all, as far as I can tell, but other opinions about whether they meet

WP:RS are welcomed. Thanks. Collect (talk

) 22:06, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

InfoQ.com

Is http://InfoQ.com a reliable source for Wikipedia? It is a prominent online news site covering professional software development. The organisation behind InfoQ is explained in http://www.infoq.com/aboutus with specifics about InfoQ.com itself sketched in http://www.infoq.com/aboutus#infoq. The editorial process is explained in http://www.infoq.com/contribute with editorial core values in http://www.infoq.com/contribute#core_values. There, under "Content you can trust":

Our content will be free from bias, either personal or vendor-driven, unless clearly marked as "opinion." Users can expect InfoQ content to be educational, accurate and without marketing agendas. This is our brand promise and the reason our readers trust us. We strive to adhere to the principles of journalistic integrity in our news writing activities, while recognizing that we are not practitioners, not journalists, trying to do the right thing.

This question arises in connection with two references in the draft article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:ThreadSafe which are used to support multiple statements, where the editor is questioning reliability of InfoQ.com itself. (I am the author, and I think InfoQ.com is reliable, but the editor suggested that I ask for opinions here.) Here is a concrete example: the first sentence

ThreadSafe is a source code analysis tool that identifies application risks and security vulnerabilities associated with concurrency in Java code bases, using whole-program interprocedural analysis.

is supported by both references:

Grazi, Victor. ThreadSafe Concurrency Static Analysis Tool Announces First Public Release, InfoQ.com, August 28, 2013.

and

Atkey, Robert. Discover and Diagnose Java Concurrency Problems Using Contemplate's ThreadSafe, InfoQ.com, January 14, 2014.

The author of the former is on InfoQ.com's editorial team, see http://www.infoq.com/contribute#meet_editors. Dsannella (talk) 10:33, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I suggested the questioner come here. I do not view myself as competent to judge this source for reliability. I, too, am interested in the answer. Fiddle Faddle 13:10, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

homeofheroes.com

I started a talk page discussion at Talk:Hispanics_in_the_United_States_Marine_Corps#Homeofheroes.com discussing homeofheroes.com. After looking at the website Homeofheroes.com which was used as a citation, I fear that it is a personal website. Another editor argued "Home of Heroes is a reliable source which only cites the citations written by the US Military." See diff WhisperToMe (talk) 01:47, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

An unreliable source and a dead one: Falling Rain Genomics and FindArticles.com

This website (http://www.fallingrain.com) is used as a reference by more than 3,500 Wikipedia articles. There used to be an article about it which was deleted several years ago (Discussion here). I can see why it was deleted; information about it is hard to come by and it's apparently considered not reliable. Is there a recommended alternative source?

A similar question applies to findarticles.com (FindArticles) which has been effectively dead since 2012 (redirected to a website which has none of the original content) but is still referenced by around 2,400 articles. Colonies Chris (talk) 11:13, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Falling rain has caused concerns in the past (for instance Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_123#fallingrain.com, Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_63#Fallingrain.com) and imho cannot be considered a reliable source and there is probably a consensus on that. However so far there was no consensus on how to resolve the problem in particular due to the large amount of cases in WP. Ideally all references to Falling rain should be replaced by alternative sources, but that might require a larger amount of editors and maybe bots helping out. More importantly somebody (ideally familiar with such cases in WP) would need to take the lead and organize the effort. Without that the references to falling rain will only vanish slowly over the years, when they get removed by chance by people maintaining/updating individual articles, where a falling rain references happened to be used. This last scenario isn't really a great approach, but that is essentially what happened so far over the last years.--Kmhkmh (talk) 16:41, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

A good first step could be to simply tag all those references with ^{[unreliable source?]} so that readers (as well as the maintainers of those articles) are aware of the problem. Can we get some bot owner to do that automatically? Diego (talk) 10:42, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I've requested it here. Colonies Chris (talk) 14:38, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Epguides.com

I would appreciate opinions on whether epguides is considered a reliable source. It seems to be fan generated, as is indicated in its Wikipedia article, although the article implies that it's highly regarded. Given its links to imdb and tv.com, I don't see how this site could be regarded as reliable, but there are editors who will no doubt disagree. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:35, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Although their own content is not user-generated, they apparently partner with other sites whose content is, such as TV.com. Their FAQ states that they are non-professional fans who source their content from a mix of primary and secondary sources. It seems to me that it would be best to just go to the secondary sources that they use. I'd say this is not a reliable source, but it might be a good starting point for research, much like the IMDb. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:27, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

DevX.com

Is http://DevX.com a reliable source for Wikipedia? It is a prominent online news site covering professional software development. The organisation behind InfoQ is explained in http://quinstreetenterprise.com/about_us - it also publishes the magazine Datamation.

This question arises in connection with a reference in the draft article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:ThreadSafe which is used to support multiple statements, where the editor is questioning reliability of DevX.com itself. (I am the author, and I think DevX.com is reliable, but the editor suggested that I ask for opinions here.) Here is a concrete example: most of the first sentence

ThreadSafe is a source code analysis tool that identifies application risks and security vulnerabilities associated with concurrency in Java code bases, using whole-program interprocedural analysis.

is a near-quote of the second sentence of

Taft, Darryl. Contemplate Delivers ThreadSafe Java Concurrency Static Analysis Tool, DevX.com, September 4, 2013.

Dsannella (talk) 10:45, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I suggested the questioner come here. I do not view myself as competent to judge this source for reliability. I, too, am interested in the answer. Fiddle Faddle 13:11, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

The author of the referenced article is a professional journalist, see http://www.eweek.com/cp/bio/Darryl-K.-Taft/ and http://www.linkedin.com/pub/darryl-taft/8/187/ab3 Dsannella (talk) 10:56, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Ongoing dispute about how to characterize a band Yank Barry performed with

Argument over which sources are more reliable has been going on for months. Needs to get to a conclusion. Talk page RfC - Richfife (talk) 19:18, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

New editors needed to help determine consensus

I am asking for new, uninvolved editors to weigh in on this RfC. It involves whether we can include a mention of the subject's discipline problems in school. There is a dispute about the content, and you can help determine consensus. Thank you. Useitorloseit (talk) 21:53, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Are want ads reliable sources?

I have noted a couple of instances in which want ads for positions at universities have been used as citations for other statistics. Examples are here for number of students and I saw a want ad earlier used as a reference for the endowment value, although I can't seem to locate the diff right now. Are these want ads considered reliable sources? Does it depend on if they are

WP:SPS or if a recruiter is publishing the ad? Thanks, Bahooka (talk

) 15:18, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I tend to think they are reliable. I often see and occasionally use Amazon references to show that a book exists; that a subject is named as an author; to obtain the ISBN. Thats as reliable a source as can be found sometimes for such a purpose. Trackinfo (talk) 21:38, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

undue to include it. If you just want to source an ISBN, you don't need to put a citation to Amazon. Just put the ISBN in the article without a citation. Such things are trivially verifiable to themselves as a primary source. If someone actually challenges it, then you can go look it up on worldcat or whatever. As far as want ads, no, I would probably say they're not a reliable source. Anyone can claim whatever they want in an want ad. What we need is a history of fact checking and correction, and that simply does not exist in a want ad. For the most trivial of information – name, address, date of establishment, CEO, etc – I would certainly let a want ad, press release, or other self-published, promotional primary source stay. For more than that, I'd probably raise a discussion at the talk page and argue against the use of that source. Basic statistics, such as number of students, seems like a borderline case to me. Again, if no secondary sources are reporting it, then it's probably undue to include. Some users have an almost OCD-like compulsion to fill in every field in an infobox, and it's just not necessary to do so. NinjaRobotPirate (talk

) 14:01, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree with this. Want ads are exactly that, advertisements. They shouldn't be considered reliable for their claims without corroboration from other sources. In the specific case of student numbers, universities will sometimes make no distinction between part-time and full-time students, student who apply but never begin studies, multi-disciplinary students being counted twice, etc. Most schools have an interest in appearing as large as possible, which leads to apples-and-oranges comparisons or unreliable reporting. A clearly attributed claim can sometimes be included, but shouldn't be presented as known fact in Wikipedia's voice.__ E L A Q U E A T E 14:26, 4 June 2014 (UTC)