Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 252

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

I'm bringing this discussion here from here: Talk:History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland#Postwar_Antisemitism.

A student I'm working with posted to the talk page for the article on the history of the Jews in Poland with his plans as far as expanding the section on postwar antisemitism. The source he planned on using is Jan Gross's 2006 book Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz, which was published by Random House and Princeton University Press. This source has been disputed on the talk page with the following arguments for or against its use:

Against

• Xx236: The book is biased, has been criticized, and Gross is a sociologist as opposed to a historian.
• 2600:1001:B116:91A6:306F:ED57:5BDF:7A1D/2600:1001:B10D:19D1:CD21:E0C4:D1B4:B681 (I believe these to be the same person): States that Icewhiz is trying to push a viewpoint and that the book is only accepted by Jewish/Israeli media, not the overall mainstream media.

For

• Icewhiz: The book is usable, Gross is considered to be a reliable source on the topic, and the criticism for the book has predominantly come from Polish media and nationalists. The book has been routinely cited as an academic source. Mentions the Google Scholar citation counts and refutes the IP's assertion that the acceptance comes from only Jewish and Israeli media.
• Chapmansh: (Note: course instructor) The book has been accepted enough by mainstream academia to be used as a source. A compromise would be to acknowledge the criticism for the source in the expansion.
• Simon Adler: A very usable work, obviously accepted as an academic RS. Actually (IMO) one of those rare works which act as an engine of historiographical progress. For that reason and for expected orthodox academic debate I would agree with Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus's points about differing RS's being deployed as appropriate, but that hardly needs to be said.
• E.M.Gregory Gross and this book are regarded as the leading mainstream academic authority on the subject.

Neutral

• Piotrus: The book is usable as a reliable source, but doesn't represent a moderate standpoint. Suggests using other sources along with the Gross source.

I think that these are the only ones who have participated in the talk page discussion thus far. My suggestion is along the lines of Chapmansh and Piotrus, which is to acknowledge criticism and use multiple sources. I've also asked for examples of moderate sources. Since the discussion has gone on for quite a bit, I think it would be good to move this here to get a wider consensus. I'm a little concerned that this is more of a symptom of something that should be a far larger topic for discussion, since there are claims that this is an attempt to introduce biased content into the article (ie, pro-Judaism/Israeli bias or right-wing nationalists trying to downplay the impact of Poland during and after WWII). --Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 19:46, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

• The article on the book (Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz) is a good place to look for more context. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 19:54, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi, Gross's findings in Fear have been confirmed by multiple scholars. First, if it was published by Princeton University Press - one of the most highly valued academic presses - that means it was peer-reviewed by leading scholars in the field. Second, following are just two examples of university professors who rely on his work in their own (peer-reviewed) publications. Joshua Zimmerman, historian at Yeshiva University, acknowledged that Gross's work has generated large debate, but argued that said controversy was not a sign of Gross's weakness as a historian. Indeed, he wrote in relation to Neighbors, Gross's earlier book, "What distinguished this public debate was the consensus in the mainstream Polish press on the basic accuracy of Gross's findings, even if some details and Gross's methodology continue to inspire scholarly dialogue" (Introduction to Contested Memories, Rutgers 2003, pages 10-11). Natalia Aleksiun, professor of history at Touro College, wrote that Gross is one of the leading authorities on postwar anti-Semitism in Poland. "For the best account of antisemitism in the immediate postwar years, see Jan T. Gross" (Aleksiun, "Jewish Responses to Anti-Semitism in Poland, 1944-1947," in Contested Memories, Rutgers 2003, p 258). Third, Fear was a finalist for the National Book Award, a decision overseen by a panel of 25 "distinguished writers, translators, critics, librarians, and booksellers." ([1]). Fourth, in November 2016 the American Historical Association - the foremost professional association of historians in the United States - issued a public statement stating, "Princeton University Professor Jan Tomasz Gross... for four decades has done exemplary work on the history of World War II and on the Shoah in Poland." ([2]). There is no doubt that Gross has ruffled some feathers by drawing attention to Polish anti-Semitism in both his books, Neighbors and Fear, and his work has arguably been the most significant factor in propelling the Polish government to issue the Holocaust Law. Some scholars question minor aspects of his work - as scholars should - but no serious scholar has discredited Gross's work - not even near that. His work remains standard reading in college courses, and is cited as a reliable base by scholars who work on related matters. I'm happy to provide further evidence of any of these points.Chapmansh (talk) 21:08, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Gross's work has generated large debate - it doesn't prove that Gross informs about facts. BTW Goldhagen has also generated large debate but his theory isn't accepted. Nolte started Historikerstreit, so what?Xx236 (talk) 08:58, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

findings? Gross' own findings are highly unreliable, like the picture from Golden Harvest. Gross summarises rather findings of Polish historians and publishes them in English with some controversial comments. The most funny is when Western people believe that Gross interviewed eyewitnesses. Xx236 (talk) 09:08, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• This doesn't even need to be here, there's no chance in hell anyone can argue Gross' book is non reliable. Of course it is. I am neutral only in so far as the book's neutrality is concerned. My point is that Gross, just like any other source, is biased, and represents one of several sides in the debate. As long as one understands that Gross is not the final authority, just one of many voices in the ongoing discussion, and that some other reliable sources have criticized some of his findings (which doesn't mean he cannot be cited and considered reliable!) it's all good. The student (and everyone else) is more than welcome to use this book - with the understanding that some things Gross writes are certainly not neutral (ditto for his critics, of course). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:34, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
• Include and attribute this information as a significant scholarly viewpoint on the topic. If there are other viewpoints include and attribute them. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:46, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
• Obviously reliable, no attribution needed. This is probaby the most cited work in the field in the past decade. Google scholar has this cited almost 400 times. Gross is considered an authority. There is generally no need to attribute - Gross detractors, as they are, consist mainly of Polish far-right media, politicians, and a handful a
  WP:FRINGE viewpoint generally either dismissed outright or mentioned in the context of denial in Poland to accepted historical findings (a topic worthy perhaps of an article or section itself - there have been a few works analyzing this denialist movement).Icewhiz (talk
  ) 05:13, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
• Comment. The above comment is a good indicator of why Gross needs to be (occasionally) attributed. There are some in academia (and in our editor corps) who consider certain viewpoints to be truly neutral, perfect, and unchallenged, and label all critics of their preferred viewpoints as fringe extremists (an attitude that is a direct violation of NPOV). Gross is of course reliable and widely cited, but it does not mean that those who disagree with some of his claims are fringe extremists. One should wonder if such a claim shouldn't be made about those who put a certain viewpoint above and beyond any criticism, however. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:44, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I would have to see the specific opinions/conclusions of Gross that are to be included and what any reputable counter arguments are for me to weigh in fully on this. Generally if it sounds like an opinion and there is only one source for that opinion I would say attribute it. Any facts that are peer reviewed by historians and not seriously questioned by other reliable sources could be stated in Wikipedia's voice. —DIYeditor (talk) 06:36, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
    • I think Princeton University Press is a very good publisher, but agree with above comments; opinions should be attributed, even reliable ones.Seraphim System ^(talk) 06:43, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
      • Right. As I said, this discussion is pointless (a misunderstanding). Gross is reliable and can be cited, and occasionally some of his more unique/controversial claims should be attributed. This is all normal and per policy. There's nothing extraordinary to find and conclude here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:06, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
        • WP:FRINGE counter-view, does not mean we attribute mainstream published work on facts.Icewhiz (talk
          ) 08:20, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• @Icewhiz: I don't have the foreign language skills to comment on the Polish language sources, but it seems there is consensus that Gross is reliable. If you want to discuss the reliability of other sources it might be easier to start separate discussions for those sources.Seraphim System ^(talk) 08:40, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

  @

  WP:V and discussion by editors not fluent in the language, and I can also say from personal experience (and this is not specific to Polish language sources) - that there tends to be more verification/misrepresentation issues with non-English sources. As an aside - Gross in most of his works wrote little that was "new" to Western scholarship (e.g. English, German, Hebrew) - Jedwabne was a well known event prior to Gross (though not as extensively researched as it has become post-Gross), as are the events in Fear. Gross's work was groundbreaking in that it incorporated Polish language primary evidence (available after the fall of communism) and in its being delivered to a Polish audience (in Polish, in parallel to his English version, the Polish versions do differ from the English) - which sparked a public debate in Poland, on matters for the most part settled decades prior in Western scholarship.Icewhiz (talk

  ) 09:03, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

  The foreign language source issue was discussed extensively at AE and there was no consensus for an outright ban. I don't see what it has to do with Gross. Regarding the use of sources outside mainline Western scholarship, the conclusion at AE was that it needs to be resolved through discussion at the article talk page. I don't think anything has changed about that, we can't just ban them for being non-Western. You would have to post the sources and the context they were used in.Seraphim System ^(talk) 16:56, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Gross isn't reliable, because he doesn't care about details. His books were adressed to Polish people, to oppose their childish nationalism/d3enialism, rather than to inform the world about facts.

Please prove that Fear is of equal or superior quality and readily covers the topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xx236 (talk • contribs) 09:01, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. The book has been discussed here, it has a separate page. Now a student comes - hello, I know the subject from the book. Please read a number of other sources.

The book is certainly not a reliable source regarding an alleged partisan's diary. If we decide the book is reliable, someone may quote the diary.Xx236 (talk) 08:49, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

The book is clearly a reliable source. It is already cited by 382 other works according to a google scholar search. Plus it has been published by Princeton University Press. Being biased is not an argument against reliability- if someone thinks that an opinion based on the book is biased, we can always attribute.Cinadon36 (talk) 09:19, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Agree that it is RS, and I agree that his claims need attribution.Slatersteven (talk) 11:58, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

This book is clearly a reliable source as it is published by Princeton University Press. Morgan Leigh | Talk 22:09, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I found at least three reviews on this book, all of them are generally positive:

• Reviewed Work(s): Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz by Jan T. Gross. Review by: Robert Legvold. Source: Foreign Affairs, Vol. 85, No. 6 (Nov. - Dec., 2006), p. 173
• Reviewed Work(s): Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz, an Essay in Historical Interpretation by Jan T. Gross Review by: D. Stola Source: The English Historical Review, Vol. 122, No. 499 (Dec., 2007), pp. 1460-1463
• Reviewed Work(s): Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz. An Essay in Historical Interpretation by Jan T. Gross Review by: Padraic Kenney Source: Slavic Review, Vol. 66, No. 1 (Spring, 2007), pp. 108

--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:12, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Suggestion I really think this "Jews and antisemitism in Poland" topic area has reached the point where discretionary sanctions are warranted. I came to RSN just now because I was tired of the drahma boards, where this issue has come up frequently for at least the last year or so.

As for this specific question, I would say that the source can be used, preferably in conjunction with better sources, lacking any better sources that contradict it; it shouldn't be rejected for specific claims without a better source.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:08, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Source - Scholarly Kitchen

Article - Sci-Hub

Content - Credentials used by Sci-Hub to access paywalled articles have been subsequently used by third parties to access other information on university networks and are bought and sold like other personal information in black markets. (Two references are provided following the quote, but only the Scholarly Kitchen one directly supports the content).

According to Scholarly Kitchen itself, it is a blog established by the Society for Scholarly Publishing. There is no apparent review process for what's posted there. This particular post is based on a talk the author gave to the society. In this post, a number of allegations were made against Sci-Hub - it says that Sci-Hub directly engaged in hacking and phishing, and that it traded in stolen credential on the dark web, suggesting that this might be a source of revenue for Sci-Hub. Note however that no actual evidence was provided for the charges. The article clearly stated that it cannot provide evidence so as not to reveal their sources. What evidence that is given in article cannot actually tell us that it was Sci-Hub that was engaging in hacking/phishing or trading. Sci-Hub itself denied that it is involved, and it is entirely possible that the attacks were conducted by a third party that provided the credentials to Sci-Hub and traded them, and the author may be using an association fallacy argument for his allegations. Also in the article is a number of assertions that are also not backed up with any evidence, e.g. vast majority of the credentials used by Sci-Hub were obtained by phishing and attacks.

As a blog post that contains many allegations without providing any clear evidence of guilt, can it be considered a reliable source? It is also clearly a primary source, can it be used as a source for an unambiguous statement? The Scholarly Kitchen piece was discussed in a few places in the Sci-Hub talk page, for example in Talk:Sci-Hub#Primary self-published source. Hzh (talk) 00:30, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

User:Hzh the about page you cited says "David Crotty serves as the Editor in Chief of The Scholarly Kitchen and Angela Cochran is our Associate Editor." Editors provide editorial control. Please see your talk page. Jytdog (talk) 01:37, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I assume you are referring to the review part? I've struck off that part, although "review" for research article usually refers to something done by one or more independent reviewers (they assess the quality of the article whether it is suitable for publishing), not the editor who serves a different function, but I can see that you interpret it in a different way. Hzh (talk) 01:47, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Please see your talk page further. We care about editorial control per

WP:BIASED. Jytdog (talk

) 02:28, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what

WP:BIASED is referring to. Having an editor does not mean it is considered to have good editorial control, and I'm pretty sure a lot of discussions at RSN involve publications with editors. Hzh (talk

) 03:55, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

That said, it is indeed a blog, albeit an edited blog. It has been a major site for discussion of the open access movement. (ref

doi:10.1016/j.jaac.2013.08.016 The question is whether the author is an expert, whose opinion should be given any WEIGHT in WP. The author is Andrew Pitts, Co-Founder and CEO of Publisher Solutions International, and is based on an invited talk he gave at a panel session at the 2018 Society for Scholarly Publishing (SSP) Annual Meeting, per the source. (the talk is here). Per this he is also the founder of IPRegistry

, which is a service that provides IT security for publishers and their customers, especially academic libraries. So he way has a financial conflict of interest. He also is very clearly an expert in IT security in this field, and in my view his findings are relevant.

That source is from 2018. There is an earlier source from 2016:

Based in Kazakhstan, Sci-Hub hackers allegedly use compromised user credentials—usernames and passwords—to access proxy servers that manage access to licensed IP-authenticated content from academic institutions.... Sci-Hub takes advantage of an active international market in stolen user credentials, where innocent users give up their passwords to phishing attacks targeting the university community. In one such email attack, the hacker poses as a library service manager by using a combination of two real library staff members’ names familiar to faculty. The email draws users to a familiar URL address but, instead of taking them to their own library server, sends them to a secondary page (see Figure 1) with similar branding, though hosted in New Zealand. Input typed into the username and password fields on this page is captured and later used to illegally access licensed content... In October 2015 the court ruled in favor of Elsevier, agreeing that the defendants fraudulently obtained student or faculty access credentials on university campuses and used those credentials to gain unauthorized access to copyrighted scholarly journals, articles, and books hosted on ScienceDirect. Another content provider taking action to protect themselves against Sci-Hub is Wiley. In July 2015, Wiley informed customers that Sci-Hub was targeting student and faculty access credentials using methods similar to those mentioned in the Elsevier complaint, and offered guidance on identifying compromised systems and securing them against further attacks. Russell/Sanchez 2016-03 (That is from a journal, and the authors are Carrie Russell,. director of the Program on Public Access to Information in the American Library Association, and Ed Sanchez, who is head of Library and Information Technology at Marquette University)

btw, Cyber spying on universities is a thing; there actually is market for university credentials (just like there is for other username/passwords)

between those two refs, the content is fine, in my view. Please note the content does not say that Sci-Hub actively phishes; it only says that one source of the credentials they use is the black market in stolen university credentials.

finally, Elbakyan has said

in response to what Sanchez wrote: "That is untrue that we obtain any passwords by phishing though the Sci-Hub website." In response to followup question about the phishing experience described by Sanchez: "In that case it is possible, because Sci-Hub acquires passwords from many different sources. So it may well be possible that this professor’s password finally ended up being used on Sci-Hub website." In response to a follow up question: "At this moment I prefer not to disclose the thorough details of Sci-Hub operation, but I expect this to become possible in future." Sauropod followup to Ruff 2016-02 (widely cited in other refs here)

“It may be well possible that phished passwords ended up being used at Sci-Hub,” she said. “I did not send any phishing emails to anyone myself. The exact source of the passwords was never personally important to me.” (wapo 2016 (the first part of that quote is also in bohannon in Science, 2016-04

I did not tell Science how credentials were donated: either voluntarily or not. I only told that I cannot disclose the source of the credentials. I assume that some credentials coming to Sci-Hub could have been obtained by phishing. Anyway, Sci-Hub is not doing any phishing by itself. The credentials are used only to download papers. her 2017 "what WP gets wrong" post which is "Elbakyan, 2017" cited in eLife) Jytdog (talk) 02:12, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I note that the 2016 piece presented no evidence for the claim of Sci-Hub takes advantage of an active international market in stolen user credentials and it is not sourced to any other studies. Note also that this quote does not support the more detailed description given in the content - the allegation by Scholarly Kitchen is that Sci-Hub sold credentials it stole, which is different from the 2016 piece which is about Sci-Hub obtaining credentials through the market. That 2016 article in any case looks to be an opinion piece with unsubstantiated allegations, and therefore should be treated as any other opinion piece, i.e. attribute the opinion. The other quotes are not useful to the discussion except to show that Elbakyan denied Sci-Hub was involved in phishing, as they do not support the claim made by Scholarly Kitchen which is about Sci-Hub being the active party in phishing and trading. Hzh (talk) 03:17, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

It is right there in the quoted content from Sanchez.

As for SK, I already posted this at the sci-hub talk page, but the SK ref says {{tq}|More evidence collected shows that credentials that get into Sci-Hub’s hands are subsequently shared widely. How do we know? We caught them. When a particular set of credentials had been stolen and used first by Sci-Hub, the password was reset. For a short period afterward, the stolen credentials were monitored. The log file analysis revealed that there were 302 further attempts to access the site using the stolen credentials. The access points came from 12 countries including the United States, China, Thailand and Hong Kong. Only 17 of the attempts were from Sci-Hub itself, demonstrating the credentials stolen by Sci-Hub had gone viral. Scarily, those same stolen credentials were even being used by university users at 34 recognized universities! This tells us that the credentials had been passed around the web.}}

The number of misrepresentations in what you have posted here have made a mess of this. Jytdog (talk) 04:40, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

No. Allegations and assertions are not evidence. Consider, say, a charge is made that John killed Jane, and it is then claimed that John entered the room, where the body of Jane's body was then found. Photos of someone entering the room and and Jane's body are then produced as evidence. That however is only evidence that someone had entered the room and that Jane died, and not who killed her, certainly not John. You need to produce evidence that it was John who actually entered the room and that there are other evidence to link him and her death. The so-called evidence given in the blog post is that attacks had taken place, the stolen credentials became widely available, but no evidence at all that it was Sci-Hub that was engaging in the attack or was responsible for spreading the credentials. There is absolutely zilch evidence for that, and the author made it clear that he cannot present such evidence. If this is a research article submitted for publication to a reputable journal, an independent reviewer would have picked up on the lack of actual evidence linking Sci-Hub to the hacking/phishing and trading, and would recommend rejection of the article. Hzh (talk) 10:44, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Primarily responding to the original post here, without getting into the broader content dispute. It strikes me that, regardless of the specific claims, if the only source covering claims regarding the rights of publishers being violated is an organization for those publishers, we should not be including it. Same principle as any other advocacy/lobbying/trade representation group that publishes material about how this or that is harming its members -- if it's worth including, it'll get picked up elsewhere (e.g. RIAA, MPAA, ASCAP on p2p throughout the 00s). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 04:53, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

To clarify, I would oppose using it with attribution except insofar as a secondary source has reported on the same claims. Otherwise, as with any other trade/advocacy organization, it does not carry

WP:WEIGHT for most purposes. Same would go for any organization making claims to try to defend their members -- it needs to go through another degree of sourcing first. If there's secondary source coverage of the claims, then I see no problem to include the citation along with the other. — Rhododendrites ^talk

\\ 04:54, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• Only for attributed quotes - and with a clear qualification on the source (e.g. "The Scholarly Kitchen a blog established by the Society for Scholarly Publishing"). This is a blog by an advocacy group for academic publishers - and academic publishers are clearly in conflict with Sci-Hub (as via Sci-Hub users are able to bypass paywalls setup by the publishers - harming publisher revenue). Icewhiz (talk) 07:38, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
• OK with attribution, and attribution is only needed if it is the sole source for this, since there are many blogs making the same point and indeed Elbakyan doesn't appear to dispute it. Icewhiz, there's no actual conflict here, scholarly publishing also encompasses open access and several of the organisational members of SSP publish open access journals. Guy (Help!) 12:43, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

  I would assume Elbakyan would dispute that Sci-Hub passes (or sells) credentials it receives onward to other third parties for purposes other than Sci-Hub. She probably doesn't dispute that Sci-Hub receives (or buys) the credentials. Many, if not most, of SSP members sell journals for profit. Icewhiz (talk) 13:08, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, many, but not all by a long chalk. Enough that SSP's opposition to Sci-Hub is plausibly due to rights issues not just profit, anyway. Guy (Help!) 15:53, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

The content no where says that Sci-Hub sells credentials; it seems not at all unlikely that the site buys them from the black market. The "donated, voluntarily or not" line kills me. But she is so cagey that this is all hazy - all we have are the bits and scraps. All the references for credentials are gathered at Talk:Sci-Hub#source_of_credentials_in_the_body along with a proposed edit to summarize them. Jytdog (talk) 08:11, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• Note, the issue with calls for 'attribution" are that the SK ref is a second source, behind the much stronger Sanchez one - unclear how this call for attribution would be realized in the content. The result of attribution would be to give the SK ref more prominence than what I (for one) would prefer to give it. Jytdog (talk) 19:05, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

It should be noted that the Sanchez article does not mention that the credentials used by Sci-Hub being subsequently used by third parties to access other information on university network. The Sanchez source is here, [6], and it says Sci-Hub hackers allegedly use compromised user credentials, then gather copyright-protected materials to be made available for its customeers via Sci-Hub. What the content says is very different. Note also its use of the word "allegedly". Hzh (talk) 16:46, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• should have mentioned that the Ruseell/Sanchez reference, to which the Sanchez piece is a follow up, says "Sci-Hub takes advantage of an active international market in stolen user credentials, where innocent users give up their passwords to phishing attacks targeting the university community. " That ref is important here as well. Jytdog (talk) 17:49, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
• Contrary to what was said above, the
  OASPA. SSP's "Sustaining Organizational Members" and the Scholarly Kitchen Cabinet include at least three entities which are currently involved in a lawsuit against the subject of the article, which is pretty much the definition of a conflict of interest. That said, the publication often hosts pieces by reliable sources, you just have to discriminate on a case by case basis. Nemo
  17:38, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• Can we close this? There was significant support for TBANning the OP of this thread on ANI a few weeks back, and it doesn't look like there's been any improvement, as this dispute is also currently on AN. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:14, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Looking for additional opinions on whether the following source is reliable for multiple historical statements in Cincinnati Time Store. See Talk:Cincinnati Time Store#Reliable source.

Kemple, Steve (March 19, 2010). "The Cincinnati Time Store As An Historical Precedent For Societal Change". Cincinnati Ohio:

Cincinnati Public Library

Presented at CS13. pp. 1–3. Retrieved November 29, 2018.

(not

• @Dlthewave: This will be redundant to #Is an article in World Net Daily reliable source? above unless it is an RfC, in which case it should be templated as such. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 01:26, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

I see this as a separate issue, since these RS questions are usually handled case-by-case and the "expert" credentials of the quoted person will vary. –dlthewave ☎ 02:14, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

I would also like this issue addressed from a general perspective, because there seems to be some inconsistency. Is an op-ed published on an otherwise non-RS site a reliable source for the author's opinion or not? WorldNetDaily is listed in

Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources/Perennial sources

, as a "generally unreliable" source, with the following description (bold added for emphasis):

"WorldNetDaily is not considered a reliable source for most purposes. The website is known for promoting falsehoods and conspiracy theories.[54]"[9]

The listing has two links to where the site has been discussed on this noticeboard in the past and here are the closing remarks for those discussions:

1) "Consensus appears to be that World Net Daily is not generally acceptable as a source for factual material (as is, for example, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal etc.). While prior RS/N "Consensus" is cited evidencing WND "unreliability", individual citation(s) evidencing WND "unreliability" have not, thus far, been provided. As to whether or under what criteria/circumstance WND might be considered WP:RS, opinion is divided."[10]

2) "Resolved: Sigh, not again. It's been clearly agreed (you know, that "consensus" thing we have) before that apart from editorial opinion, if one is unable to source a supposedly factual statement without having to use WND, it probably doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article. Jake, your efforts would be far better aimed at better sourcing rather than this repeated waste of everyone's time, and it's now time to leave the equine corpse alone. There's only a certain number of times before being pointy becomes disruptive. Black Kite (t) (c) 06:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC) "[11]

If an op-ed on the site is not permissible as a source for the op-ed author's opinion, then the description in the listing should be updated so this doesn't come up here again. AmateurEditor (talk) 05:26, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

If I understand it correct, the issue is whether we are supposed to trust a person (e.g., a renown expert) or a source. When a person who is an established scholar publishes their view on some site with questionable reputation, what should we do with that?

This story reminds me a situation with publication policy of the Royal Society. In past, some established scientist were granted a permission to publish their paper in Royal Society journals, and they could publish whatever they wanted. That was an old analog of a modern peer-review procedure: instead of subjecting each paper to a peer-review procedure, Royal Society "peer-reviewed" scientists themselves: as soon as some scientist successfully passed a "peer-review", his manuscript were published without any restriction. However, later, this strategy was abandoned, and now each paper is subjected to a peer-review. (Arguably, the only exception is Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of U.S.A., which publishes manuscripts authored by members of the National Academy without peer-reviewing; as a result, everybody knows that a PNAS article authored by some academician may be of lower quality than the articles submitted by other authors).

In connection to that, the idea to trust an expert, not a source, is a step back as compared to the old publishing strategy that existed in a scientific world a 100 years ago. I don't think Wikipedia will benefit from that.

Frankly, I cannot understand the motives of Wikipedians who are advocating various questionable web sites. When some renown expert publishes their thoughts on such a web site, and the same information cannot be found in more trustworthy sources, that this expert is not totally confident in what they say: such statement may be inaccurate, provocative or questionable, and its publication in peer-reviewed of other good quality media may lead to some sort of reputational risks. In other words, publications of that sort should be considered as the expert's "hobby", and treated accordingly.

Wikipedia has a very non-uniform reputation, some say it contains a lot of bullshit. If we really want to improve it, it would be better to too rigorous than too liberal when we select sources.--Paul Siebert (talk) 06:14, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

According to

WP:RS a person is a source, as is a publisher and a work, so it is not choosing between a person and a source. AmateurEditor (talk

) 06:28, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

No. Not alone, who-by and where it's published matters to source evaluation. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:13, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Only to a considered extent in an overall evaluation, the conditions for inclusion are section 1 OR section 2 OR ... not AND.

Dmcq (talk

) 11:54, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Sorry? I understand, I think, the first part of your comment, "overall evaluation", as I said it is part of the evaluation of a source, (who by, who the publisher is, where, where is it published) but I don't understand the second part, are they abbreviations(?) (eg.

WP:AND?) and what you are trying to say there? Alanscottwalker (talk

) 13:06, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm saying the basic conditions for inclusion are condition 1 OR condition 2 OR condition 3 etc, not condition 1 AND condition 2 AND condition 3. AND means all conditions must be satisfied, OR means one or more must be satisfied. I capitalized them so you would have a chance of noticing them.

Dmcq (talk

) 17:22, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

You're comment is still cryptic, "condition for inclusion" is odd, but to the extent you are arguing that you consider things in isolation your statement makes little, even common-sense. We consider things in context, given several factors that are bound together simultaneously not in some fictitious isolation. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:05, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

AmateurEditor, I really cannot understand why you are so persistent: this approach would decrease quality of Wikipedia. Imagine some serious article about, e.g. black holes, which is based on good articles from Science, Nature and PRL: will it benefit if we add there some claim from some "Flat Earth society" portal? Even if our rules do not prohibit that, a good faith user is supposed to avoid such things.

And, by the way, you interpret WP:EXPERTSOURCE incorrectly. Expert's opinion published in questionable sources is acceptable only when this statement is uncontroversial: our policy does not allow it as a support of extraordinary claims. Obviously, that means that everything written in WND should be treated with greater suspect. --Paul Siebert (talk) 15:05, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

• WorldNetDaily is an appropriate source for uncontroversial facts about itself on the article
  WP:UNDUE pretty much by definition. Guy (Help!
  )

• When we can't trust the publisher/editor, we can't trust what they published or how they edited it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:13, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

We don't need everything peer reviewed on Wikipedia. That is a daft idea. In this case we're not talking about WND as a general source but its editor as a source about conservative ideas on the Bible. The appropriate criterion to judge that by is section one of

Dmcq (talk

) 11:47, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

It's

WP:SPS for that, and its editor is not a notable qualified commentator on the subject. $RANDOMBLOWHARD cited to their own website is never a good idea for Wikipedia sourcing. Guy (Help!

) 12:06, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Comment: I don't have an opinion regarding if WND is a reliable source. However, I do have concerns when I see all material cited to WND systematically removed without asking if a lower quality source is really a concern and/or if an alternative source is available. Take a case where WND is reporting the views/statements of a person who's opinion on a subject would generally have WEIGHT. Unless we think WND is actively changing/misquoting people then I would say there is ONUS to show that WND is not reliable for such basic material. That doesn't establish WEIGHT, only an assumption of a low level of reliability. If the author is someone who's opinion on the subject would generally be notable then we shouldn't exclude it just because it was published on WND. In that case I would treat it like self published material from an expert. Unlike such an opinion published in say the NYT, I wouldn't take the fact that it was published on WND as evidence that the opinon/views/facts etc in question have WEIGHT. If WND reporters are interpreting facts/events then I would say the bar is higher and it sounds like the general answer is no, not reliable. However, this does not mean any material that is sourced to WND should be automatically removed from articles especially with no effort to find an alternative source for the same material/quotes. Instead if the sourced material is factual (quotes, otherwise non-controversial statements/attributions) then an effort should either be made to find alternative sources or start a talk page discussion asking if removal is justified. Springee (talk) 14:23, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

WP:BURDEN, all of that should be done by those who want to restore this material. It would be absolutely incorrect to say that "there is ONUS to show that WND is not reliable", but the opposite is correct: a proof should be presented in each case when WND is used that this particular WND article is reliable. However, if such a proof (in a form of another publication in more reputable source) has been provided that makes WND redundant.--Paul Siebert (talk

) 15:26, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't think we actually disagree here. The question is what counts as "extraordinary"? Consider an article statement, "Expert A said, "This is a good idea because..." ". WND is only being used to claim that Expert A made the statement. In that case are we claiming WND falsified the statement? In any case, an editor removing material from a Wiki article because it is cited to WND should make a good faith effort to see if an alternative source for the claim is available. Springee (talk) 15:57, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

That is not a big question. "Extraordinary" means "

surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources". That means any surprising statement not supported by better sources can be considered extraordinary unless opposed has not been proven. Regarding "good faith efforts", that is what I usually do. However, that is not mandatory. --Paul Siebert (talk

) 16:12, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

It seems wikiEd adds spaces automatically. Just in case if other users are having this problem, disabling of wikiEd resolves it. Or switch to from Firefox to Chrome...--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:54, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

• Same as above. Bathroom graffiti written by an eminent expert is still bathroom graffiti. If the best source someone could get published in is a totally junk publication like WND, we should probably ask ourselves "Huh, why didn't better sources publish this too?", and then use those better sources, and the things they chose to publish about the subject, instead. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:27, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Well better sources by our standards have said essentially the same thing there, but they are sources which one would expect to pooh ppooh some nutcase conservative idea. This is a dyed in the wool right winger and creationist that one might expect to be supportive saying the project is nutty.

Dmcq (talk

) 21:49, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

• Almost never - Basically what JzG said. Maybe an opinion about itself or one of its authors, used in the article about itself or said reporter, but basically nothing else. Too often we find something to be a terrible source, but exercise no discretion when it comes to including those sources anyway, but with attribution. If something is as poor of a source as WND, we just shouldn't be using it except in remarkable circumstances. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 01:18, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

You seem to be answering the previous discussion 'Is an article in World Net Daily reliable source?'. This one has a title phrased like that one but the question is different, it is about the editor and his competence for a particular type of opinion.

Dmcq (talk

) 19:24, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

No, I responded in that section, too. Perhaps I answered OP's questions a little sideways, but I'm responding to the question of, ~"let's say WND is an unreliable source; when should an opinion published in WND be considered suitable for inclusion per WP:WEIGHT". My answer is "almost never," and I would say it's generalizable. I think it's too often that we come to a consensus that a source is unreliable for statements of fact, but exercise little control over use of that source for attributed opinion as though e.g. anything published in a lousy source can be included if it's attributed. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 07:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

That just indicates to me you missed the point. Anyway no skin off my teeth I'm happy enough for it to go.

Dmcq (talk

) 23:03, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Agree with

WP:WEIGHT the viewpoint should carry. My opinion is that even if an unreliable source faithfully reproduces the words of the author, it does not contribute to its weight. As others have pointed out, the opinion would need to be repeated by reliable secondary sources to justify inclusion, so we might as well just cite those sources. We should also reject arguments that assign weight to a particular individual due to their prominence or expertise since this is not supported by policy. –dlthewave ☎

23:38, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Agree. --

talk

) PingMe 04:31, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Is Encyclopedia Titanica a reliable source? It's used extensively in Titanic-related articles such as

What editorial, controls are there?Slatersteven (talk) 08:56, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

No, in history related articles, we desperately need quality sources, checked and placed in the right historical context, by credible, well-cited historians. Cinadon36 (talk) 09:45, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• They don't list their editorial controls anywhere obvious - but it is not an open-wiki (you can send an e-mail or fill out a webform with a request) - and it seems from their description that there are editorial controls. If we had a description of their controls - they'd probably "tick our boxes". They are cited in an academic context, and it seems that their lists are even used as a main data source (cross-checked vs. others) - e.g. Frey, Bruno S., David A. Savage, and Benno Torgler. "Behavior under extreme conditions: The Titanic disaster." Journal of Economic Perspectives 25.1 (2011): 209-22.. This Liverpool University Press book refers to them as "superb" major source for biographical information. I would consider them as probably generally reliable, though a stronger source would be preferred. I don't think that inclusion in Encyclopedia Titanica should count towards notability of subjects much - as they cover just about absolutely anything Titanic related - i.e. their (Titanic-specific) notability standard is lower than Wikipedia.Icewhiz (talk) 10:23, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

OK, RS for information not for notability. Seems fair.Slatersteven (talk) 12:38, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• I would say not reliable until demonstrated otherwise. Icewhiz's links above are a bit problematic: the LUP book, for instance, describes the website as a "superb" source for primary source material and photographs, but Wikipedia is supposed to use secondary scholarship, and the LUP book makes no reference to ET having excellent editorial standards. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:08, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
• It seems borderline to me. About page and the "Add to ET" box raise a few alarms - they emphasize that they're built by contributions from users, and the submission form says Only add something you have permission to add, wrote yourself, or is out of copyright, which is common sense but shouldn't be something they're so concerned over if they're doing due diligence on submissions themselves, ie. it gives the impression that they're taking submissions and throwing them up with little oversight. So I'd probably say they're dangerously close to
  WP:PRIMARY material hosted on that site, like contemporary news articles, which we can cite as long as we have no reason to believe it's been edited or falsified - that host contributes little or no reliability, but doesn't take it away, either. Finding secondary sources is better, but, again, for uncontroversial information it doesn't have to be remove-on-sight. --Aquillion (talk
  ) 22:00, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
• Obviously a good and useful source for historic photographs and for identifying relevant primary sources. No indication that the written text is anything other than user-generated content or any more reliable than any other wiki. In the absence of clear evidence of competent editorial control, not a
  reliable source. Justlettersandnumbers (talk
  ) 11:55, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

• Source 1: "Attacked By Andaman Tribe, Coast Guard Officer's Terrifying Account" - NDTV
• Source 2: Cops Studying Rituals Of Tribe That Killed US Man To Recover His Body - NDTV
• Article: Sentinelese
• Text: [14]

This relates to a description of a 2006 incident where a group of Sentinelese attacked a helicopter. The incident is sourced by two articles, both from NDTV (so we are not at the moment debating whether NDTV is, in itself, a reliable source).

Source 1 is specifically about the incident, and quotes the pilot of the helicopter as saying: "As we were going down, we were attacked by the Sentinel tribals who were using bows and arrows and had spears as well. The arrows were coming up to a height of 100 feet".

Source 2 is primarily about a later incident, but includes a brief summary of the earlier incident: "In 2006, Sentinelese hurled arrows and spears at the chopper that Commandant Praveen Gaur flew to North Sentinel." This sentence links to Source 1.

Our page initially only used Source 1, and said the helicopter was "attacked with arrows"; User:DBigXray changed this to "with spears and arrows"; I reverted on the basis that this wasn't supported by the source given; DBigXray reverted back, and eventually added Source 2 as justification.

It seems to me that Source 1, an article about the topic with an eyewitness account, is the significantly better source on this incident, and specifically says that arrows were used and spears were not; Source 2, a brief summary in the same publication linking to Source 1, seems a clearly worse source.

In discussion at Talk:Sentinelese/Archive 2#Spears, DBigXray insists that we should use Source 2 to say that the helicopter was attacked with spears, and that he wants to include this because "the only weapons of tribals are arrows and spears and they have clearly used everything they got. A clear warning that meant 'trespasser be gone'. The damaging power of a spear is much larger than an arrow." This seems to me to be a decidedly POV approach to editing. He then provided a series of other putative sources to back up the content, but these all turned out to not actually relate to the incident in question.

This is an utterly minor debate in itself, but DBigXray said if I still objected to his version I should take it here, and I am sufficiently troubled by his approach to sourcing (in this and other debates on the same page) that I have done he suggests. TSP (talk) 00:02, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

In my view, the first source is the best, and the second source does a poor job of summarizing the first. Contradictions between the two should be resolved in favor of the first source. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:36, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

The first source says two things. First it says "who were using bows and arrows and had spears as well", then it says "were attacking my helicopter with everything they had." The second sentence supports the contention that they were attacking with spears as well as with bows and arrows. The second source says "Sentinelese hurled arrows and spears at the chopper". I don't think one can say either of these sources is any better or worse than the other. They are from the same publication and about the same topic. In my opinion there are two reliable sources that support the contention that both bows and arrows and spears were used in the attack. Morgan Leigh | Talk 21:22, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Morgan Leigh, I interpret the phrase "with everything they had" as fighting with great determination, but not neccesarily unleashing every single one of their weapons. The choice of the word "using" with regards to bows and arrows and "had" with regards to spears is significant and must be taken into account. Also worth noting is that a soldier can carry many arrows and they are effective at up to 200 meters. A soldier can only carry two or three spears and they are much shorter range weapons, used for thrusting in close combat more often than throwing, and have a far shorter effective range than arrows when thrown. Source one says that the helicopter was 200 meters away from the islanders. Given their culture and their available weapons, it was militarily effective to fire arrows. It would have been a total waste of their heaviest weapons to throw spears from 200 meters. In the Olympics, only one athlete in history has ever succeeded in throwing a javelin over 100 meters, and military grade spears are much heavier. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:34, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Cullen, I interpret "They were just 200 metres away and were attacking my helicopter with everything they had" as meaning "every weapon they had". Being a native speaker of Indian English, I can also safely claim that Gaur also meant the literal meaning (i.e. "every weapon they had") rather than the metaphorical meaning, as this phrase is commonly used in Indian English to refer to the literal meaning.
• During the 2004 incident the helicopter did not land it was attacked by both arrows and spears, with a clear motive.

• Indian Coast Guard helicopter surveying the island for survivors encountered tribals trying to bring it down with spears and arrows [15]

Please see Commandant Gaur's interview with NDTV here talking about the 2006 incident

• more than 50 or 100 people are running towards you with spears, arrows and shooting towards you.- Gaur

• In 2006, Sentinelese hurled arrows and spears at the chopper that Commandant Praveen Gaur flew to North Sentinel."[16]

Regarding your military analysis and possible uses, You are making a flawed assumption that during the 2006 incident with Gaur, the Helicopter always remained at a height of 200m, that assumption is not supported by any evidence. Please note that during the 2006 incident the helicopter wasn't always at a distance of 200m. In fact it did land at two occasions at two different places on the island. So it is quite possible that when the helicopter was flying at a lower height or while being landed, the Tribals would have used spears as well. Gaur also states that they were attacked with spears and arrows and these 2 quotes from NDTV plus several others mentioned above should be enough to settle this thread.

Here are some other sources that say that both arrows and spears are used.

• Police say Chau knew that the Sentinelese resisted all contact by outsiders, firing arrows and spears at passing helicopters [17]

• driving away uninvited guests — whether they arrive by boat or fly overhead — with spears and bow and arrows [18]

• I am going to ignore the false allegations of POV above. All said, this is such a trivial dispute and I fail to understand why so much fuss about spears and why TSP wants to remove spears while there are so many sources stating they use spears on Helicopters. --DBigXrayᗙ 07:45, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

The question is not "do the Sentinelese ever use spears?", it is "Do the sources suggest they used spears on this occasion?" All these other sources either refer to completely different incidents, or refer to no incident in particular; so they are not relevant sources for this. There are not "so many sources" saying they used spears in 2006; there is one, it is not a very good one and it is contradicted by a much better one.

Regarding "with everything they had", the full quote is: "They were just 200 metres away and were attacking my helicopter with everything they had - arrows were flying everywhere." That seems to clarify the meaning - it does not say "arrows and spears were flying everywhere". In several different quotes Gaur is specific about what they were attacked with; in each case he says arrows and does not say spears.

With regard to POV, I am only quoting your words. TSP (talk) 13:19, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• "Being a native speaker of Indian English" shouldn't make it hard for you to understand whatever is being told to you in English since the language and the meaning of the words is still entirely same. How it was possible to attack with spears? They must have got spears but where they used to spears or not is unclear. Excelse (talk) 16:18, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• I have to agree with DBigXray that the literal meaning seems much more likely than the metaphorical one. I agree that the helicopter was on the ground at the time of the attack so an attack with spears would have been feasible. I don't think that Gaur saying that "arrows were flying everywhere" in any way means spears weren't being used. I think it means that there were lots of arrows. IMHO the first source alone makes it clear that spears were used in addition to arrows and the second source reiterates it. Morgan Leigh | Talk 06:14, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• "They were just 200 metres away and were attacking my helicopter with everything they had - arrows were flying everywhere. I was on the ground on North Sentinel Island. The rotors of my chopper were running. In moments, my crew and I would have been captured and killed." - Gaur [19]

Notice that Gaur clearly says "he was on the ground" and not airborne at a height of 200m while talking about the attack.

• The above is the quote from the Wikipedia article being discussed here and as it stands this statement doesn't make any wild or ludicrous claim and is sourced with RS and quotes that are mentioned above. Notice that our article is not claiming that the spears were thrown 200m above the ground. The line in the article does not distinguish between on ground attack or airborne attack. The line in article only claims what has been reported thus far. There are only 2 reported incidents of Helicopters coming under attack and both events mention arrows and spears. They used spears on Helicopter in 2004 and after just 2 years, in 2006 they did not use ? There is no reasonable explanation for why they will refrain from doing it. Anyway, we follow what the reliable media reports, and we have reliable media reports that back this statement.

• Police say Chau knew that the Sentinelese resisted all contact by outsiders, firing arrows and spears at passing helicopters [20][21]

Notice the usage of plural with helicopter, the reliable media uses the statement for both occasions and Gaur's interview also confirms the spears were used to attack.--DBigXrayᗙ 02:00, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

"There is no reasonable explanation for why they will refrain from doing it"? That is an extraordinary approach to writing a Wikipedia article - we should assert things happened because we can't think of a reason why they wouldn't have? Making inferences from plurals in articles seems pretty dubious too - if they'd used arrows twice and spears once, that still seems to be perfectly well-covered by "firing arrows and spears at passing helicopters". Trying to extract detailed commentary on a particular incident from a generic remark seems to be

original research synthesis

.

It still seems to me that we have two sources that actually describe this incident; and the one that says spears were not used is by far the superior one.

All the other sources are either *about a completely different incident*, or make a generic statement, so have no relevance; nor does anyone's logic about what behaviour on the part of the islanders would have been sensible. TSP (talk) 15:00, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

TSP your statement that "Spears were not used" is not based on any source but your own "personal opinion/understanding" of the quotes. Gaur states that he was attacked by arrows and spears and we have other reliable sources also stating that Spears were used on Helicopter. I have said all I had to say on this thread in great detail with quotes and there is nothing more for me to add. --DBigXrayᗙ 05:22, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Gaur doesn't say he was attacked by spears. He says the tribe members "were using bows and arrows and had spears as well". I find it hard to read that as saying they were using both arrows and spears.

The other sources which relate to different incidents or are general comments remain completely irrelevant. TSP (talk) 10:54, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

TSP, why do you think one of these sources is superior to the other? Morgan Leigh | Talk 05:44, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

As I said in my original post, they are from the same publication, but Source 1 is an extensive article specifically on this topic, quoting an eyewitness; Source 2 is a brief summary, with a link to Source 1, appearing in an article on another subject. It seems unlikely to me that Source 2 is more authoritative than Source 1, which it appears to be an attempt to summarise. TSP (talk) 10:54, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• It seems as though it is hard to be sure exactly what happened. What about this phrasing: ...firing arrows at the helicopter,[cite 1] and according to one article, throwing spears as well.[cite 2] ? -Darouet (talk) 05:53, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

From what I can gather it is not clearly stated whether they threw spears or not. "Everything they had" is not precise. Why not wrote something along the lines of

The helicopter was attacked by tribesmen armed with spears bows and arrows. The pilot is quoted as saying "They were just 200 metres away and were attacking my helicopter with everything they had - arrows were flying everywhere."and leave it at that. This is better than trying to synth the sources and work out whether the spears they had were sufficient to get to any distance that could do any damage or whether they got closer than 200m or not. When a quote is not clear then write it as is rather than trying to interpret it. Dom from Paris (talk) 07:46, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that, though I think "As we were going down, we were attacked by the Sentinel tribals who were using bows and arrows and had spears as well. The arrows were coming up to a height of 100 feet" is the more interesting quote; or we could include both. TSP (talk) 10:54, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Looks OK to me so long as the quote comes from a reliable source. I think it is not very important to the article whether it was spears or arrows that were coming at them. I find it odd that Indian English has a significantly different meaning to the phrase "with everything they had" that means that an Indian English speaker is more apt to understand than a British or American or Australian speaker for example. That aside I listened to the interview on youtube with the pilot and not once did he says that spears were thrown but not once did he say they were not so we cannot write they were or not thrown. Dom from Paris (talk) 12:11, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Commandant Pravin Gaur of the Coast Guard...His helicopter was attacked by arrows and spears and he couldn't land the first time round. NDTV

Another quote from NDTV directly stating that both arrows and spears were used.--DBigXrayᗙ 13:59, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Mm. So that is arguably a second source (from the same origin as the previous one). But, once again, it's a summary of more detailed content - a video this time - where Commandant Gaur has every opportunity to say that spears were used, but every time only says arrows were used (but that they also had spears).

"When we had gone down to make a search by the helicopter, the tribals, who are very ferocious, they started attacking the helicopter with bows and arrows"

"More than 50 or 100 people are running towards you with spears, arrows, and shooting at you"

TSP (talk) 14:19, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

This is absolutely a third source that explicitly mentions spears, both in the text and in the video. I don't see why TSP thinks this is a summary. It is a live interview with Gaur that provides more details than in the other two reports. In the video Gaur says "more than 50, 100 people are running towards you with spears, arrows and shooting at you". All three reports are from NDTV which is a reliable source. There is no reason to not include mention of spears. Morgan Leigh | Talk 22:54, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

I think we may have lost sight of what the text is that is being discussed. Currently in the article: "When the helicopter tried to retrieve them, it was attacked with spears and arrows by more than 50 tribesmen who shot arrows to a height of more than 100 feet (30 m)." (my emphasis)

Yes, absolutely, Gaur has mentioned on multiple occasions that the tribesmen had spears. He also seems to consistently only mention that they attacked the helicopter with arrows. As per source 1, " we were attacked by the Sentinel tribals who were using bows and arrows and had spears as well." In the new source, only the text summary on the video suggests the helicopter was attacked with spears; Gaurs own words in the video (which I transcribed some of above), again, only mention it being attacked with arrows, while the tribesmen also had spears. TSP (talk) 00:49, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Once again I refer you to the attacking "with everything they had" quote. I support Domdeparis' suggestion that we go with the direct quote from the article instead of trying to infer what they mean i.e. "The helicopter was attacked by tribesmen armed with spears and bows and arrows. The pilot is quoted as saying "They were just 200 metres away and were attacking my helicopter with everything they had - arrows were flying everywhere." Do you support this @DBigXray:? - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Morgan Leigh (talk • contribs)

• User:Morgan Leigh, noting that I didnt get your ping above, probably becuase you did not sign. I must extend my thanks to User:Morgan Leigh, for pointing out the obvious here to TSP.
• TSP, I hope you are aware that the Journos have a pre-interview discussion as well as post-interview discussion with the interviewee. I get a sense from your arguements above that you are assuming here that if something is not quoted in the first person quote in an article then it basically never happened. This is absolutely flawed approach. The direct quotes are added by the journos in the article to generate reader's interest as it makes the reading exciting. Other relevant discussions are generally summarized in the article. Not every piece of information is necessarily presented in the news report in the form of direct quote. Other than first person account, (Gaur here, who never said spears were not used), the journos also refer to other available primary, secondary, tertiary sources before writing the article. And the crux of the journo's investigation is published in their report.
• I have shared in this discussion thread 3 separate articles from NDTV stating that both spears and arrows were used to attack. Apart from NDTV there are other sources also confirming the same. The content on spear is reliably sourced. And our article should include the mention the use of "spears and arrows to attack". Although I will not prefer but I am ok to use the exact quote in the article, but if we are using a quote we should not be cherry picking based on personal likeness of the content. We will have to use the full quote as mentioned in the table row 1 above (that also mentions the use of spears). The use of spears is well documented and reliably sources, If TSP is not willing to acknowledge these reliable sources mentioning "spears", in spite of such a long discussion here it is his problem. The mention of attack with spears cannot be dropped from the article section.--DBigXrayᗙ 10:02, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

You're still including sources that describe an entirely different incident. Surely you can at least acknowledge that those ones have no relevance?

A quote seems the best solution - I've never objected to mention of spears, only the assertion that they were used, which Gaur never seems to me to say - but if your reading is that he does say that, I guess we can just include the quote and both be happy.

I guess it can be all 81 words of Gaur's two quotes - seems like rather a lot, but sure. TSP (talk) 13:08, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Yay, we have a consensus! Thank you both for your input. Someone can go ahead and put this text in ""The helicopter was attacked by tribesmen armed with spears and bows and arrows. The pilot is quoted as saying "They were just 200 metres away and were attacking my helicopter with everything they had - arrows were flying everywhere."". Morgan Leigh | Talk 21:10, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Ok, as suggested I have updated the article with the quote above. Thank you everyone for sharing your kind opinions on this thread. Regards. --DBigXrayᗙ 14:11, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Is this source (page 220) sufficient to say that there is doubt regarding the perpetrators of the

• It is perhaps the leading DB for the VC industry. It is vetted. I would say yes, but much of it is PRIMARYish. Some of the content is PR releases by the company/funds (e.g. funding rounds) - which is reliable for attributed use only. Having a profile on crunchbase is not an indication of notability (anyone and anything in the industry is lisred).Icewhiz (talk) 18:19, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
• Crunchbase profiles are also self-published as anyone can create an account and edit them. --CNMall41 (talk) 18:29, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
• It's primary sources or UGC. It's not an RS, and it's too trusting of the contributors. I've had to remove these as content sources repeatedly on spam articles - David Gerard (talk) 20:04, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
• Since one of the past discussions was started by me: Looking over it again, at best it should be used with great care, shouldn't be used when there's something better, and shouldn't be used for anything in dispute. --
  talk
  ) 00:18, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
• Rather than just asking if an entire site is unreliable for everything Wikipedia's policy encourages us to examine each source for each statement it is being used to substantiate. Bearing this in mind, consider each of the things Crunchbase is being used to source. Did he speak at Cointalks? Yes, and the Cointalks site shows this clearly and could be used to cite this. Did he speak at BlockCon? Likewise this is shown on the BlockCon site. Look for other references for the bio stuff and then you won't need to try to decide if an entire site is reliable or not. Morgan Leigh | Talk 03:39, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
• Generally unreliable.
  user-generated content that it should not be relied upon as a direct source for Wikipedia articles. Crunchbase's three data sources include investment firms who submit updates on the companies they're investing in, "active community contributors", and hired data analysts. I believe most of these contributions come from "active community contributors", since Crunchbase's content guidelines note that "Everyday, thousands of high-quality edits are made to the Crunchbase dataset and we encourage everyone to contribute content". Of course, Crunchbase is still a good starting point for research. — Newslinger talk
  03:36, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

[[28]] is not a valid enough reference source to cite box office revenue gains for a movie right? I am thinking it is not valid because it is Twitter, but I am having second thoughts as Twitter is being used as a reference source for upcoming movies over at

questionable. I would decline that edit request. — Newslinger talk

03:25, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@Newslinger: Thanks for answering my question. I denied that user's edit request. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 04:08, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

There are hundreds of links to bahai-library.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com . The site's About page says: "This library is a private, independent, all-volunteer project created by Jonah Winters and a team of contributors. It and its content are wholly unofficial and are not sponsored or endorsed by any Bahá'í body or institution. It is not affiliated with the Bahá'í Reference Library". Unless anyone disagrees, I will set about removing them as the spam they appear to be. Guy (Help!) 08:48, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Seems to be just another website, yep I would say not an RS.Slatersteven (talk) 10:22, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Not even close to RS Cinadon36 (talk) 18:25, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Two things. (a) The site in question is a reference library and is hosting books and other scholarly materials, which are in turn being cited on wikipedia. (b) This noticeboard requires you to provide discreet information about each source you wish to have comment on and the exact text it is referring to. This being the case, each work should be scrutinised by looking at the author, publisher and what it is being cited for. What you are asking for here is a blanket ban on an entire site without any of this information. IMHO This is a very dangerous direction for Wikipedia to head in. Morgan Leigh | Talk 22:32, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

^ what he said. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:18, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Jonah here, chief editor of Baha'i Library Online (bahai-library.com). I had to include the note cited above, about "wholly unofficial", only because of a unique aspect of Baha'i studies known as "Literature Review" (an in-house review process for print publications, the details of which don't matter here). But the thousands of items on the website include hundreds of books and articles which have both gone through academic peer-review, have been published by reputable mainstream publishers, and have been approved for posting online by the copyright holders themselves. These materials are all indubitably RS. Each link to bahai-library.com needs to be scrutinized independently. A sample of its content can be gleaned by browsing the citations from academia.edu: google.com/search?q=site:academia.edu+bahai-library.com Jonah Winters (talk) 00:43, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm going to pop in to lend my support to Morgan and Jonah here and say that the individual links should be scrutinized rather than putting a blanket ban on the site. As Jonah said, many of the texts available on the site have been peer reviewed and released by reputable publishers; they're simply made available on the site in the same way that Google Books or the Internet Archive makes publications available online. However, there are other texts on the site that have not been published anywhere else; these include personal essays and emails that have been essentially given to the site for posting (@Jonah22:, correct me if I'm wrong here). These probably shouldn't be considered reliable sources since this essentially amounts to self-publishing. dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 04:39, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Agreed with Dragfire, Jonah and Moran Leigh. Here's a list of academic publications beyond academic.edu that actually use cites from BLO I put together:

• Velasco, Ismael (2001). "Academic Irrelevance or Disciplinary Blind-Spot?". Middle Eastern Studies and the Bahā’i Faith Today. 35 (2). Cambridge University Press: 188–198.
  doi:10.1017/S0026318400043340
  .
• Bishop, Laura Jane; Susan Cartier Poland (Dec 2002). "Bioethics and cloning, part II". Kennedy Institute of Ethics Journal. 12 (4): 391–407.
  OCLC 4637509259
  .
• Pink, Johanna (2005). "The Concept of Freedom of Belief and Its Boundaries in Egypt: The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Baha'i Faith Between Established Religions and An Authoritarian State". Culture and Religion. 6 (1): 135–160.
  doi:10.1080/01438300500071422
  .
• Melanie Lotfali (2006). Engaging East Timorese Men in the Process of Establishing Gender Equality (Doctorate). University of New England, Maine. p. 76.
  OCLC 277175039
  .
• Habib Allah Afnan; Ahang Rabbani (Nov 27, 2008). Genesis of the Bábi-Bahá'í Faiths in Shíráz and Fárs. Studies in the history of religions. Vol. 122. Brill. p. 382.
  OCLC 878682368
  .
• Danesh, Roshan (2010). "Hegemony and Revelation: A Bahá'í Perspective on World Order". Religious Studies and Theology. 29 (1): 123–138.
  ISSN 1747-5414
  .
• Gilman, P. (2011). "Whatever the Sacrifice: Illness and Authority in the Baha'i Faith". In Schumm D.; Stoltzfus M. (eds.). Disability and Religious Diversity. New York: Palsgrave Macmillan. pp. 19–45.
  ISBN 978-0-230-11973-4
  .
• Palmer, David A. (10 Dec 2014) [2012]. "From "Congregations" to "Small Group Community Building" Localizing the Bahá'í Faith in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Mainland China". Chinese Sociological Review. 45 (2): 78–98.
  doi:10.2753/CSA2162-0555450205
  .
• Lisbeth Nielsen; Sue L.T. McGregor (September 2013) [June 10, 2013]. "Consumer morality and moral norms". International Journal of Consumer Studies. 37 (5): 473–480.
  ISSN 1470-6423
  .
• Roland Faber (20 June 2018). The Garden of Reality: Transreligious Relativity in a World of Becoming. Rowman & Littlefield. pp. 483, 484, 489, 493, 509.
  ISBN 978-1-4985-7624-6
  .

The reliability of the sources depends on the sources themselves. BLO is a responsible library of material. Smkolins (talk) 13:21, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

And here's some reliable sources that suggest one should go to BLO (all gathered today though none included dates of their own publication):

• "Baha'i library online". Arts and Humanities Community Resource. University of Oxford.
• "Baha'i - Portals". Religious Studies Web Guide. Libraries and Cultural Resources, University of Calgary.
• "Baha'i faith". SOAS Library. University of London.
• "Research Guides: Religion : Websites". University of Tennessee Chattanooga.
• "Website On Religion - baha\'i". American Theological Library Association.

and I could not find any that warned people not to go there. Smkolins (talk) 14:17, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Agreed with Smkolins, Morgan, Jonah, Dragfyre, etc. Some of the content hosted there is really high quality and it would be a shame to try and locate some of it elsewhere. However, if there is specific questionable content on the site we should remove those sources. Rm9820 (talk) 16:11, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi all, I am coming across this website, Chartmasters.org which has been used across multiple music related articles and lists across Wikipedia. A simple perusal of the website it is clear that is a gross unreliable site with no authoritative representation for sales of records. They estimate and then publish it as facts. Its a Wordpress website run by an user who has deviced his/her own method called Popularity analysis. I strongly suggest that we

Pinging @Harout72:, @Ss112:, @SNUGGUMS: etc for their opinion also. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 14:47, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Agree with blacklisting this site. It is used so widely and I remove it wherever I find it too. It is astounding how undemanding some inexperienced and new editors are of the reliability of information—anybody can claim they're an authority on a blog, buy a .com or .org domain and editors will attempt to add it here and pass it off as fact. I don't think its listing at
  WP:ALBUMAVOID is doing enough—attempts to add it should be filtered. Ss112
  14:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Agreed also with blacklisting this site. While the folks at Chartmasters seem to be working hard gathering sales data, it's clear that this is not yet a professional site to rely on, perhaps will never be.--Harout72 (talk) 15:01, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Fully support blacklisting Chartmasters. This dubious site should be removed from all articles if it isn't already. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 15:33, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• support Not a lot to say that has not already been said.Slatersteven (talk) 16:11, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Guys I removed Chartmasters.org across the encyclopedia, but how do we blacklist it? —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 21:05, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    • Well done on that. Not sure how something officially gets blacklisted, but I would also like to know. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 13:10, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose I do not support blacklisting or blanket bans of any site. Each instance of using a source should be scrutinized, otherwise we will end up having to ban every dodgy source everywhere. We need to educate editors instead of instituting bans. Bans promote combative behaviour. Resources promote discernment. Morgan Leigh | Talk 00:21, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
  • No, some websites are just a bloody headache. We have many instances of blacklisting websites which any user add (especially in the music articles) such as UKMIX .com (i removed the period by a space so that you can see the actual website). —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 23:05, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
• OPPOSE. No shown actual problem or prior discussion, no orderly process, policy, guidance, evidence,... A literally just casual look and went IDONTLIKEIT is not a reputable way to pick bans. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:03, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Oh really? You see WP:IDONTLIKEIT instead of the number of reasoning given above? —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 23:05, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support. This
  WT:SBL. — Newslinger talk
  03:45, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

An editor[29] insists that Climatefeedback.org is a self-published source run by nobodies and that we can't use it as a source for statements such as "