Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 273

I'm not sure if this is the right venue, but it's an issue that's concerned me for a while. At Brant Gardner I remove the word scholar, but it's been restored by User:Geneva11[3] with the edit summary "Added qualification as scholar based on his linguistic and anthropology publications, updates additional publication)" which I presume are meant to suffice as sources. Doug Weller talk 14:41, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

I would usually associate scholar or scholarly with academic/research type materials rather than commercial work, the dividing line might not be too clear though. On the other hand some eg https://www.library.illinois.edu/ugl/howdoi/scholarly/ might adopt a fairly relaxed definition of scholar(ly). It's a bit generic I guess, historian, linguist, architect and so on might be better (more specific) descriptors.Selfstudier (talk) 16:59, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

The word scholar has a broad definition,[4] so that it could apply to virtually anyone. It takes meaning depending on the context in which it is used. I think therefore that how it is used in the lead is appropriate. Gardner has extensively written articles for academi publications on the Book of Mormon and Mesoamerican studies. If a reputable university publishes your Bibliography of Mayan Languages and Linguistic I would assume you were a scholar in the subject. I would not expect a source that described someone as a scholar, just as when we write about someone who has held multiple elected offices we don't need a source calling them a politician. TFD (talk) 00:10, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• Honestly, I would try to avoid using it unless there are sources specifically using the term. Unlike some of the other terms listed above, it's extremely broad and carries the air and implication of some sort of expertise and higher-learning without explicitly stating it. When dealing with academics or academic topics, there's a serious risk of cranks or armchair intellectuals (and their fans) trying to present their opinions as better-grounded than they really are. Crucially, unlike "politician" (which is a neutral term), "scholar" is fairly unambiguously positive in this context - in the wiki-voice, it's giving more weight to what this person has to say by granting them a relatively positive label. That's the sort of thing we need a source for. --Aquillion (talk) 22:04, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

This report says that the Houthis warned of more Iranian attacks. This can't be confirmed from non-WSJ sources. I tried searching in Arabic for this news, I didn't find it. I didn't find any Houthi saying or warning that Iran will attack Saudi Arabia. There are reports that if Saudi Arabia didn't accept the peace offer that was offered by the Houthis and praised by the UN envoy, that the Houthis themselves will attack Saudi Arabia (more painful attacks). This might be the origin of this story but the Wall Street journal fabricated what the Houthi said and reworded it. Wall Street journal and Fox news are owned by the same person/Party they have neo-con hawkish point of view. Anyway that's not my point here. My point is that their Houthi report is inaccurate or fake. --SharabSalam (talk) 18:40, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

In what Wikipedia article is this report being used? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 19:04, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Peter Gulutzan, no, it is not used in Wikipedia. I was going to add it but then I searched for independent sources but I didnt find.

During an interview with the US Secretary of State in Fox news, the broadcaster told Pompeo about the report in WSJ, I went to search if its true and I couldn't find any supporting sources for the report. If the Houthi said that, there should be tons of sources reporting what he said but I couldn't find any. Even in Arabic.--SharabSalam (talk) 19:18, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Peter Gulutzan see Special:Diff/917210415, it is now added.--SharabSalam (talk) 19:54, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

I see nothing at issue at this point, as long as attribution is used "According to the WSJ, the Houthis, as part of their cease-fire offer with the Saudis, have reported that Iran plans to issue more strikes against Saudi Arabia." WSJ is very clear this is what they've been told, but keep it out of being the world of "fact". (We have other similar information that is relays from officials through a single source, like US officials through CBS, it doesn't make sense to challenge this reliability, as long as attribution is used. (Note if you are being hit by the WSJ weird paywall, search on the title "Yemeni Rebels Warn Iran Plans Another Strike Soon" through Google News and click through that way, it works for some reason :/ --Masem (t) 20:10, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Masem, I couldnt pass the paywall but the WSJ says that it was told by "people familiar with the matter" so we cant say "According to the WSJ, the Houthis, as part of their..." we need to attribute to "people familiar with the matter" then to the WSJ. Am I right?--SharabSalam (talk) 20:22, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Like we need to say people "familiar with the matter" told WSJ? or According to WSJ, "people familiar with the matter" told the newspaper...--SharabSalam (talk) 20:26, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Then say "According to people close to the matter speaking to the WSJ,..." I'm not saying that it needs to be included, but there's nothing here to challenge the WSJ's reliability as they are vry careful not to make any claims as fact. --Masem (t) 20:36, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

I think it should be removed it. It is very unlikely that an unnamed Saudi official or unnamed people opinion is worth inclusion especially that we have tons of these officials in the TV saying different claims and we dont add what they say.--SharabSalam (talk) 20:44, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

WSJ is reliable

WP:NEWSORG there is no problem to use it. --20:28, 22 September 2019 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Shrike (talk • contribs

)

thats not related...---SharabSalam (talk) 20:33, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This is the author of the report in twitter he said this, "“The Houthis informed us that they did not carry out the operation on Abqaiq and Khurais, and they did not expect the gravity of what Iran has asked them to do by claiming the responsibility,” said one Saudi official"[5]. unnamed one Saudi official is probably not true.--SharabSalam (talk) 20:30, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter what matters that it reported by

WP:DUE --Shrike (talk

) 20:39, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

An extraordinary claim like that requires extraordinary evidences. Unnamed Saudi official is not an extraordinary evidence.--SharabSalam (talk) 20:50, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Unquestionably a reliable source; this is a newspaper being used as a source for what the newspaper in question has claimed, not as a source for objective truth. In this context, every source, be it The Sun, Stormfront or Pornhub, is a reliable source for Wikipedia's purposes provided we arrange for the article to be appropriately archived so its clear what it said on a given day should they subsequently retract it. ‑ 

Iridescent

20:59, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

That's not my point; My point is that their Houthi report is inaccurate; the report says "People fimilar with matter" told them that the Houthis said that. That's an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary sources not an unnamed Saudi official as per what the author said in twitter.[6] It is also extra-natural that the Houthi spokesman denied the allegation before the exclusive report was even published. I have searched every corner in the internet in both Arabic and English and I didnt find any proof that the Houthi spokesman even knew about the WSJ. Anyway, unnamed Saudi official is UNDUE.--SharabSalam (talk) 21:19, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

While the WSJ is unquestionably

WP:EXCEPTIONAL and wait for a second source that confirms it. If we did include it we would have to include the caveats from the source, and would have to be careful not to go beyond what it says, eg. It couldn’t be determined how serious the threat was and Houthi claims have long been met with skepticism by Western officials, Mohammed Abdul Salam, the Houthi spokesman, denied Saturday that the group had delivered any warning to foreign diplomats about potential Iranian attacks., and the fact that The U.S. and Saudi Arabia have yet to provide conclusive evidence of any Iranian role. But I think that those disclaimers put this article below the point where it would be worth including on its own, ie. if we say exactly what the article says in its full context with all the disclaimers, it's not that noteworthy. --Aquillion (talk

) 17:25, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with this opinion, or at least to preface with "According to The Wall Street Journal ..." or "The Wall Street Journal reported that ..." Daß Wölf 21:15, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• Although I agree that the Wall Street Journal is of course a reliable source in a general sense, I don't agree that in-line citations universally allow every source to be cited freely.
  WP:RS. --Aquillion (talk
  ) 17:25, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

• It seems like what WSJ actually reported was that a Saudi official made this claim, not that Houthis made this claim directly. As such, and considering the risk of Saudi disinformation, I'd say that the article should not use this source to state anything as fact but is probably fine to include with thorough attribution. (Something like On 20 September, the WSJ reported statements by a Saudi official that what have you. Simonm223 (talk) 17:31, 23 September 2019 (UTC)attribute

The WSJ says that "people familiar with the matter" say that Houthis warned diplomats that Iran is preparing a follow-up strike. According to "people briefed on the warnings", not only the Saudis, but also the U.S. were informed. WSJ also says the previously cited "people familiar with the matter" allege internal divisions in the Houthi movement. I'd say the WSJ has a clear motive, but the primary source could be whoever with a stake in the

Yemen War. Wakari07 (talk

) 19:59, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

This report [7]. What is interesting is that it's the same author of the previous article. The article says that Saudi Arabia agreed on partial cease-fire. The report says "people familiar with the plans" told them. That can't be true. If it's true Saudi Arabia would have made that public. If it's true why don't you say who are these people who are familiar with the plans? Saudi-led coalition has carried out airstrikes against civilians in Yemen after the Houthi peace offer; for example, [8]. The WSJ, is becoming more and more unreliable. They once made a article smearing a YouTuber called Pewdiepie; cheery picking screenshots from his videos trying to make him do the Nazi salute etc etc. Anyway, that's not what I am here for. I want to highlight the fact that their reports are inaccurate or they have unreliable sources like "People familiar with the matter" or "People familiar with the plans". I would suggest caution while using the WSJ as a source.--SharabSalam (talk) 15:56, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• So RT Arabic made an interview with a Saudi official and a Houthi official today regarding the WSJ. The Saudi said he has asked many officials about this report and he couldn't verify it, he said no one knows anything about it. See what the Saudi said at 4:20 [9]. I am thinking we start a RfC and see what other editors think about this. I can dig for more unverified and inaccurate reports that the WSJ has reported. Is that enough to make the WSJ unreliable or anything like that?

It seems that the WSJ deliberately publish fake news. Probably not for political reasons but for clickbaits, money etc.--SharabSalam (talk) 20:43, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

The Wall Street Journal is a reliable source. That is not changing. Toa Nidhiki05 20:50, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

"The report says "people familiar with the plans" told them. That can't be true. If it's true Saudi Arabia would have made that public." - Yes, because Saudi Arabia is world renowned for its government transparency... Daß Wölf 20:54, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

From what I can read of the paywalled article, the second paragraph is astounding. They mention a so-called "Houthi's surprise declaration of a unilateral cease-fire" — which is only half of a declaration that is maybe best resumed by a Reuters breaking news headline: "Yemen's Houthis say will cease targeting Saudi Arabia if other side does same -Al Masirah" [10]. This is the more extended Reuters article. It has another citation: "The Houthi's 'would not hesitate to launch a period of great pain' if their call for peace was ignored." A conditional cease-fire offer is something very different from a unilateral cease-fire declaration. For me, that's (additional) evidence of WSJ reporting half-truth. Wakari07 (talk) 00:15, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

The issue of whether this is a reliable source for BLP data was raised on my talk page by an IP - see User talk:Doug Weller#WP:BLP question and the use of ISFDB as a BLP source. I did some research and found it spoken favorably of in a few reliable sources and that it has some system of verification. I looked at our archives here and found that the issue was raised some time ago twice by User:Mike Christie - neither had a response, the latest is at[11] where he makes some good points. There does seem to be some sort of editorial control, but is it good enough and complete? It's mentioned here. But if you read their faq and look at the bits that mention verification[12] and at how authors are added[13] I'm thinking that the verification process does not include biographical details, which means probably usually ok for bibiliographical details but not biographical. Take a look at Robert Heinlein's author page[14] which shows no sign of verification, but if you look at one of his book pages[15] it does. The IP, Mike and I agree it 's ok for bibliographical data but not biographical. I wanted to bring it here to see if we missed anything and because User:SyFyGuy removed tags added by the IP.[16] - I think the IP is right to have added them and as there has been this disagreement it's probably time to settle it. --Doug Weller talk 16:00, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Doug's summary -- it's OK for bibliographic data but not biographical data. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:07, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

As far as I know, most of the dates come from bibliographic sources, i.e. the copyright pages of books, where you sometimes see birth years given (Doe, John, 1946-) .--Auric talk 18:23, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

such data is usually provided by the author. It may or may not be correct. There's no point in checking LC or OCLC, because they copy whatever the books says without attempting to think. There will therefore often be more than one date in international bibliographic records. And, of course, nowadays, everyone including LC just copies the date from Wikipedia. What this means is that there are for most authors no actually reliable independent sources for basic biographic data. It's therefore reasonable to take the information from anything that seems at least a little reliable, because nobody without extensive research can do any better. DGG ( talk ) 06:49, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

@

WP:BLP says "With identity theft a serious ongoing concern, people increasingly regard their full names and dates of birth as private. Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object to the details being made public." Thus there is no way we could use this as a source for a full DOB and I'm still unhappy with using something that doesn't have editorial control for biographical information. Doug Weller talk

18:52, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

I was thinking more about years, than dates. We use the best available sources, but all sources have errors. There are no absolutely reliable sources, however we may pretend otherwise. There are better and worse sources , for particular data in particular cases. (And the subject of a bio is usually not a RS for anything except what they want to say at the time. ) DGG ( talk ) 03:13, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Agree. I've never found the Internet Speculative Fiction Database a reliable source for biographical information. It's

WP:USERGENERATED and it even says here that "the ISFDB cannot guarantee the validity of the information found here. The content of any given database record may recently have been changed, vandalized, or altered by someone whose opinion does not correspond with the state of knowledge in the relevant fields."--Tenebrae (talk

) 18:57, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Any evidence his is more than corporate self-protection? `` — Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talk • contribs)

I used to be an administrator and bureaucrat there, though I have never been involved with the administrative side of the site: my impression is that this text is probably corporate self-protection. The reason I trust the bibliographic data is because there is a version of editorial oversight with a record of independent verifications of the data, and because the authoritative SFE3 endorses it. The biographical data doesn't have the verification piece and to me that weakens the reliability to the point where I don't think we should use it. It would certainly have been possible for me to put in an incorrect birth date for myself without anyone being able to detect the error, for example. That's not the case for the bibliographic data. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:12, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

@

WP:BLP, we could safely delete any DOB addition into their WP articles. Since ISFDB currently lacks those safeguards, is it possible that ISFDB contributors could add DOB information just to fill an empty field by pure guess work with no second person verification process in place? -- 147.202.209.1 (talk

) 00:56, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

I think this is a question you should post over there, at their community portal, which if I recall correctly is the most active discussion page on their wiki. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:27, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. Based upon the other examples mentioned above, the biographical material at ISFDB appears to be just

WP:BLP are unavailable. -- 147.202.209.1 (talk

) 00:46, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

We are routinely uploading on Commons thousands of coin images for usage in our Wikipedia articles from the Classical Numismatic Group as in this example, or this example, due to the vast number and high quality of their coin images, as well as the favourable Licensing conditions (Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 Generic) confirmed by OTRS, available for all their coin images also per OTRS. This is especially useful for history-related articles.
The question is: can we also use as a source the coin descriptions that the Classical Numismatic Group provides on their site for each coin as in here. These descriptions are very useful, as Classical Numismatic Group is quite thourough and provides numerous references as well for their coin descriptions, and it is often difficult or impossible to find this level of detail with the same coin images in broadly available reputable sources (except if one manages to buys all the publications on specialized numismatics...). I would like to add that the Classical Numismatic Group staff seems to be quite knowledgeable with a high level of expertise [17]. Thank you for your evaluation पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 11:26, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

• Unreliable CNG is a coin selling website, not an academic source by an actual scholar educated in those fields, and some of their information (not necessarily all of it, the coin description part is usually correct) is quite often wrong. They seem to use some kind of source(s) (Wikipedia?) to give the date of rule, a short biography, and name of the person in the coin, which I have seen in many cases to be incorrect / outdated. "it is often difficult or impossible to find this level of detail with the same coin images in broadly available reputable sources" I must say I disagree on this, I find it not that hard to find actual proper sources regarding coins, which you seemingly do as well, looking at your edits. If you need help regarding that bit you're welcome to ask me for help, and I'll to try to provide you with actual sources, as done before. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:54, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
• No opinion as yet, but I've informed WP:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome to get more input.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:32, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
• Not reliable source: I agree with historyofiran. Although I've rarely found mistakes in these descriptions, it is preferable to only use academic sources, from which there descriptions derives (sometimes they are just copy/pasted from there).

  In the case of the coin you've displayed here, the reference is Joe Cribb, The Kidarites, the numismatic evidence, coin n°4B (pp. 125, 140). T8612 (talk) 14:10, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

• Comment I'm no expert, but I agree that I often find mistakes in coin websites descriptions a lot of the time.
  talk
  ) 14:17, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

1. Source: [18]
2. Article: Andy Ngo
3. Content:

   Ngo was accused of Islamophobia and subsequently issued a correction.

4. The article by Ngo that the SLOG post is referring to is here.

Shinealittlelight (talk) 01:01, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Not Reliable. I cannot tell whether this is a self-published blog or whether it is a news blog. Either way, we should Exercise caution when using such sources per

Reliable: Seems straightforward to me, and there are plenty of other sources to back it up. BeŻet (talk) 11:01, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

We're not talking about other sources, we're talking about this source. And I agree that this source is straightforwardly a blog, and thus unreliable per WP:BLOGS. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:09, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

No, its a blog by who?Slatersteven (talk) 11:33, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

It's the blog for the Seattle-based alternative biweekly magazine The Stranger (which I've never heard of). We have an article on them here: The Stranger. Their blog, the Slog, is at best a news blog, and at worst self-published. I can't tell from their website. Given WP:BLOGS, we should clearly be very careful in using such a source, especially for a negative claim in a BLP. This blog post is currently cited four times in the Ngo article. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:48, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

So not (which was my point) by an acknowledged expert in the field, just another blog.Slatersteven (talk) 11:50, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

SLOG is irrelevant here, since this is not an editorial. The question is whether Katie Herzog's opinion is significant here. I have no opinion on that at the moment. Someguy1221 (talk) 12:07, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

She offers no support for her statement that the piece is Islamophobic except for a link to an arcdigital article that, as far as I can tell, makes no mention of Ngo's piece being islamophobic. The fact that this is a blog means we should exercise extra caution, so that's not irrelevant, it seems to me. Shinealittlelight (talk) 12:14, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Do we actually know that she included the link and not a copyeditor? Anyway, I think the linked article there does support the assertion, even if it's not blindingly obvious. It directly cites no examples of Ngo being called an islamophobe, only explicitly showing people calling him a racist or a moron. However, it is very clearly describing the reaction to Ngo's article as being part of a backlash against Islamophobia. Unless we are to believe that the author does not consider one to have anything to do with the other, there is really not much logic in writing about them in such a way. But we don't even need to draw the conclusion, since Herzog does that herself. So anyway, I think that's reasonable. Do I think it's true? F if I know. The one author only quoted a few tweets, and Herzog simply asserts it as true. Now that I think about it, it's kind of weird actually. If it is a significant opinion that Ngo's WSJ was Islamophobic trash, it shouldn't be hard to find prominent adherents of that point of view to quote. That would be much preferred over people saying it's a prominent point of view without citing any evidence. Someguy1221 (talk) 13:31, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

If it is a significant opinion that Ngo's WSJ was Islamophobic trash, it shouldn't be hard to find prominent adherents of that point of view to quote. I definitely agree with you there. Shinealittlelight (talk) 21:06, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Not Reliable The source is a blog and it doesn't have any clear editorial standard. The claim isn't extraordinary and the blog does include a link to support the claim. However, that source is of questionable reliability. At this point a bigger question becomes DUE. When following the link in the blog we find a Medium article that is written by someone who is sympathetic with Ngo. That article is critical of those who cry Islamaphobia but doesn't say Ngo's article was islamaphobic nor claims that others do. That calls into question the accuracy of the SLOG article hence reaffirming the RS question. Springee (talk) 17:12, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

The real problem with the Andy Ngo article

Lack of SUMMARIZATION. This is a common flaw with articles on people involved with current events. Each event gets added separately (shortly after it occurs) and ends up being presented as if it were of equal historical significance to all the other events. Blueboar (talk) 22:15, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

You're exactly right. Andy Ngo is a collection of trivial stories strung together. Most of the stuff covered in that article was only mentioned in sources written within a few days of the events they describe. It's an entire article based on breaking news stories. More and more I think that we should have rules similar to the notability requirement of lasting, significant coverage to determine whether material should be included in an article. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 01:57, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

I don’t think we need more rules... just periodic rewrites. About once a year, experienced editors can sift through all the breaking news cruft, determine DUE WIGHT for which new bits had lasting impact (and which didn’t), and summarize the stuff that did. That sort of editing is already within the rules. Blueboar (talk) 20:00, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

The experienced editors currently dominating that page are hell-bent on adding every single news story about Ngo to the article, often within hours of their being published. Any attempt to even just stem the tide of garbage getting thrown onto the pile results in endless bickering and edit-warring. Perhaps there is someone in this world with the patience to rewrite the article under such circumstances, but I doubt any changes would stick. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 23:20, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

This is about [19]. Do you think that the source is reliable or should be deleted? This also applies to the tripsavvy source. The first paragraph from People's Salvation Cathedral#Dome is quite pitiful: two sources are apparently unreliable and the other source failed verification. Tgeorgescu (talk) 02:37, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

1. Is radio interview show On Being RS for statements of people interviewed there?
2. Is being interviewed on the show worth mentioning in articles on those people?
3. Is a link to the interview appropriate for external links?

Currently in about 50 articles, being a mix of these uses (as source, mentioning the person was interviewed, or as external link). Hyperbolick (talk) 05:38, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

It might be RS (but remember

wp:primary for statements made by interviewees. I doubt however it is worth mentioning they have been on the show in any article, unless the interview itself was widely reported in RS. I would say unless it is used as a source, no do not just link to an interview.Slatersteven (talk

) 09:04, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

So something perhaps like, use them as a backup source but not the sole source for a proposition? Hyperbolick (talk) 02:42, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

The digital product agency MSCHF released a site called M-Journal on Tuesday that will turn any Wikipedia article into a "real" academic article. You can screenshot it, you can cite it — and you can send a link to your teacher.

Who knows, maybe it will show up here too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:28, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Village Voice Media lists in subsections "Significant local stories." Most either completely unsourced or self-sourced. Who decides whether picked local stories are "significant"? Unclear here. Delete all unsourced? Hyperbolick (talk) 02:44, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Reads as promotional and self-sourced, delete it. There's a meta level of notability here, I guess - if the stories themselves gained

talk

) 22:51, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

@

Creffett: Thank you, will delete at least unsourced ones now. Might be pushback, so please check me. Hyperbolick (talk

) 05:22, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

FWIW, BTW, while section was created by User:Fusionx2222, blocked SPA doing promo for company. Hyperbolick (talk) 05:34, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

I removed this SPS at

The key issues seem to be:

1. Some editors do not seem to recognize the carveout in

WP:SPS

that recognizes self-published material by experts, within their area of expertise, as RS;

2. There is also some disagreement about the scope of linguistics as a field, in determining what counts as the author's area of expertise.

Also, the editor creating this RSN query initially removed the source based on WP:SYN concerns, which seems more than a little bit bizarre given the content in question and the use made of it in the stable version of the article. Newimpartial (talk) 00:10, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

The carveout is for "established expert" not just expert. It is meant for people who are known as authorities in their specific domain, not just your average professor. Even if that were not the case the paper makes clear they are using a non-standard definition of "slur".AlmostFrancis (talk) 01:38, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

But this is an expert in the specific domain, not an "average peofessor" (whatever that is). Newimpartial (talk) 15:41, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

You keep skipping the word "established". They are both academics, and one is transgender so probably has a good understanding of the underlying content, but I have not found any third party resources claiming they are established experts. Also, that one claims to be "anitfa" is probably a good reason to be careful using their content that has not been peer reviewed.AlmostFrancis (talk) 16:49, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't see that identifying as "antifa" is a greater reason to be careful than not identifying as "antifa" since the scholarship in question has nothing to do with anti-fascism. Also, the bar is not "third party sources claiming they are established experts" - if that were the criterion, we would never cite an academic unless they were vaunted in particularly biographically-driven lit reviews and textbooks, which is absurd. Peer-reviewed publications in the relevant field are quite sufficient per policy. Newimpartial (talk) 23:14, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

• when it comes to SPS issues, The key to determining whether an author qualifies as an “established expert” is to see if the author has published OTHER (non-SPS) works in field. So what else have the authors in question here published? Blueboar (talk) 01:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Hello, I am still looking for Japanese news sites like The Japan Times, South China Morning Post, and The Straits Times. Contributors on this article must be verified and reliable before citing it. --TaleofTalisman (talk) 08:48, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Charles de Bourbon: High Constable of France "The Great Condottiere", by Christopher Hare, published T. Nelson, 1911.

I have found nothing on Christopher Hare.--Kansas Bear (talk) 05:33, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

He's written a lot of books on History. Actually, I should say "she". "Christopher Hare" is apparently the pseudonym of Marian Andrews. See also here. She's discussed briefly here. That may give you a start. --Jayron32 13:04, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

But it's over a century old, & for that alone should be treated with great caution. If, possible, find something better. Johnbod (talk) 02:53, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Being over a century old doesn't make it unreliable. --Jayron32 12:26, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

When I was a young man, a common theme in my methodology class was to avoid sources written in the 19th century unless you could prove the author's specialization. In this case, 1911 falls just inside the 20th century but my concern as to the author's specialization still remains. Thank you both for your thoughts. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:48, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

We aren't here to tell you what to think about Ms. Andrew's/Hare's qualifications as a historian. You're free to read her list of works, how others have cited those works, and develop your own opinion based on how the greater world of historians at large treats her work. --Jayron32 17:54, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

1. Source: [20]
2. Article: Andy Ngo
3. Content:

   Splinter News' Libby Watson described the op-ed as "racist".

4. The article by Ngo that the Splinter News piece is referring to is here.

Shinealittlelight (talk) 00:50, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Not Reliable. My own view is that headlines are not generally RS, since they are usually not written by the author of the piece (contrary to the content we have here, which claims the headline was written by the author Libby Watson), and since headlines are often written to attract clicks rather than for accuracy. Finally, I have never heard of Splinter News before, and I do not think such a fringe source should be used for a very negative claim like this in a BLP. Shinealittlelight (talk) 00:50, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Comment. This question is irrelevant and incorrect, because

I've suggested that the in text attribution is likely mistaken, as authors typically do not write their headlines. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:08, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

This seems more a question of UNDUE WEIGHT. The reader is left wondering: why should we care what this Libby Watson thinks? Is her opinion significant? Is it significant enough to be highlighted in this way? Blueboar (talk) 11:48, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree that it's undue, but it's also unreliable, and misattributed since we have no idea if she even wrote the headline. All these points are true. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:50, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

No, it's your own opinion that you've originally put forward as if it was included in Wikipedia guidelines. When I asked you to point me at relevant guidelines, you never did. We don't run Wikipedia on your opinions. BeŻet (talk) 16:27, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Seems mediocre at best. DN (talk) 05:21, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Yup, headlines are not reliable. Even when something like this is in the article text, it is better to quote a specific critique. Connor Behan (talk) 20:28, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

One editor is deleting the following text from the PragerU article:

• In an article for the American Conservative, historian and philosopher Paul Gottfried, who has written extensively on the subject of fascism, harshly criticized a PragerU video hosted by Dinesh D'Souza which maintained that fascism was a leftist ideology. D'Souza maintained that Italian philosopher Giovanni Gentile, who influenced Italian fascism, was a leftist, to which Gottfried noted that this contradicted the research by "almost all scholars of Gentile’s work, from across the political spectrum, who view him, as I do in my study of fascism, as the most distinguished intellectual of the revolutionary right."[21]

Can I get confirmation here that Gottfried is indeed a recognized expert on the topic of fascism (he has published multiple peer-reviewed books on the subject) and that an attributed statement to him where he fact-checks a fringe PragerU video is

It would probably be best to get a second source that agrees and supports the claim. This person does seem to have standing to make the claim but are they correct? For that matter in context of the PragerU article is it due to put this much discussion into a single video? Springee (talk) 03:06, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Not an accurate summary of the dispute. The content in question is proposed for inclusion in the "reception" section of the PragerU article. That section contains negative opinions about PragerU only at this time, including op-eds from Buzzfeed and Vanity Fair. The dispute is whether, if we are to include this AC piece, we can also include a positive AC piece here that praises one of PragerU's videos. I contend that it makes sense to either exclude AC's reception altogether, or to include both the positive and negative pieces they have published. If we're to exclude the positive piece on the grounds that the author of the positive piece is not notable (and less notable than the guy who wrote the negative piece), then we should also exclude several other pieces in the section currently, such as the one in Buzzfeed, on the same grounds. I'm flexible and open to suggestion. But I don't think the section should just be reserved for criticism, which is how it is shaping up. Shinealittlelight (talk) 03:15, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Forget about the outlet, focus on the authors. Paul Gottfried is a highly respected historian and scholar whose opinion is likely to be significant. Maria Biery is a recent college graduate who majored in journalism and mostly writes for right-wing/far-right outlets. Her opinion is unlikely to be significant. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:26, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I can accept that, but only if we also remove the opinions from Tina Nguyen (VF) and Joseph Bernstein (BF) from the section on similar grounds. They're also just low level reporters like this AC author, and should have similar notability. May want to look at the assistant professor of sociology too--not really notable at the level of the others in the section. Shinealittlelight (talk) 03:34, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

I would agree that when it comes to political analysis we shouldn't put too much weight in the opinions of most VF or Buzzfeed writers. Springee (talk) 03:42, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't have time to look at the others at the moment, but I intend to. There is also the matter of what the pieces are actually saying. Gottfried's piece is directly criticizing the factual assertions in a PragerU publication from the standpoint of mainstream scholarship. The Biery piece is simply praising PragerU for calling out communism as being bad because During my time in public school, I never learned about communism, the Cold War, Stalin, or Mao. That's it. There's nothing intellectual in there. Biery notes some actual statistics on how many Americans have a poor grasp of history, but aside from a few anecdotes the rest is completely free of anything approaching scholarship. In short, the piece is worthless. It's more than just who wrote it and is it nice or mean to PragerU - you also have to ask, what did they actually say? Gottfried's piece is actually saying something relevant. Biery's is not. So anyway, I'll look at the others later. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:47, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Having looked at the other two sources now, The Vanity Fair article and The BuzzFeed News article, well, those are actual news articles. They're not in the same ballpark as the essay by Biery. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:45, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

The

talk

) 03:48, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Buzzfeed also has a lot of partisan crap [[22]]. Springee (talk) 03:54, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

The cite is to

WP:RS/P before discussing a source, which would have alerted you to the difference between the two. --Aquillion (talk

) 22:18, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

The content sourced to Vanity Fair is a description of PragerU's influence ("very influential"), aesthetics ("slick") and ideology ("conservative"). The report by Buzzfeed News, an outlet that has won multiple prestigious journalism awards in the last five years, is the most in-depth profile of PragerU that exists. Then there is the source that you want to add: an op-ed by a conservative college student who devotes one paragraph to Dennis Prager rambling about Nazism and communism, where she just repeats what he says, and says that she agrees with him.

talk

) 03:44, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. The Buzzfeed and VF pieces are obviously opinion pieces by non-notable authors. But, since they're critical, they're in. Oh, and also an unknown assistant prof of sociology of course writing for an activist group. But if someone non-notable says something nice about Prager U, they're out. One standard for negative pieces, a different standard for positive pieces. It's an obvious violation of NPOV. Shinealittlelight (talk) 10:32, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Actually, there's one standard for well-researched news articles that provide useful information about a subject; and another standard for an op-ed by a college student blaming her crappy public school education on some imagined inability of American liberals to talk about communism. Someguy1221 (talk) 11:01, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Nope. Two standards. Look at Francesca Tripodi's opinion. She's an assistant professor who has published exactly one refereed article. Obviously not notable. But it's in, because she calls PragerU a white supremacist gateway, and we definitely want that in, don't we. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:44, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

It's hard to keep up with you when you keep moving on to different sources to complain about. "But what about this one? But what about that one?" etc. Someguy1221 (talk) 20:07, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

The argument I'm making is slightly complex, but it's been the same from the beginning. The inclusion of the professor's article in AC suggested to my surprise that AC isn't automatically regarded as unreliable around here. So then, when I saw that there was another piece in AC that talked about Prager U, I included it. I judged that piece to be just as notable as several other (frankly low-quality) sources in the section. So, if you're not happy with that, the admissible solutions, from my perspective, are to either exclude all the low-quality sources (e.g., the piece for the activist group by the nearly unpublished assistant prof.), exclude both AC peices as non-RS, or leave all of them in. But of course the preference is to leave in the low quality sources that are critical, while excluding the source I found. Not surprising, I guess. Shinealittlelight (talk) 20:24, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sympathetic with the desire of some editors to pack some articles with what are in effect negative factoids that don't form a cohesive theme/narrative. However, looking at the Buzzfeed and VF examples in this particular case I don't see that they are making overly controversial claims. However, I'm not sure why Gottfried's piece is DUE in this case. It seems to be more about D'Souza's opinion vs PragerU as a whole. Springee (talk) 11:47, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Oh come on, this D'Sousa fringe theory nonsense is so pervasive in the US far-right internet that there's literally been serious discussion about permanently semi-protecting

WP:FRINGE occur from throw-away accounts with such regularity. Not only is Gottfried correct; they're in line with the vast body of work on Fascism as a far-right ideology. Simonm223 (talk

) 11:54, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Then put it in the D'Souza article. It's not DUE in the article about PragerU. How many PragerU videos have been released? Per Wikipedia 482. Why focus on one? It makes sense to focus on generalized themes in the videos on in the replies. If the idea is PragerU gives a mouth piece for fringe ideas, fine. Find a RS that says so (I suspect that is not a hard task) but it's simply DUE, especially in such a short article, to give so much weight to this single reply to the opinions in a single video. Springee (talk) 12:13, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

As if D'Sousa making his idiot mouth noisesoft-repeated

WP:FRINGE claim about fascism is the only failure of scholarship at PragerU... Simonm223 (talk

) 12:16, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Then the article should have a RS saying PragerU's videos are often wrong/disputed etc by experts in the field. That would help the lack of SUMMARIZATION. Springee (talk) 12:22, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

No, the article should have a statement to that effect supported by RSes. The requirement that A) the article must be summarized and B) the RSes used to support that summarization must be summarized in the same way is untenable for right-wing internet phenomena that live and die by their ability to generate fresh controversies to draw either hate-clicks or own-the-libs clicks. However serious academics usually just ignore these nonsense propaganda sites; as such there's a dearth of summary sources rather than sources focused on this or that specific controversy - as I'm certain you are fully aware given your edit history. If PragerU is noteworthy enough to get an article on Wikipedia (which considering

WP:10YT I would dispute) it is imperative we have a neutral article that positions it in its position in reality - a far-right propaganda portal. Excluding critics because they're too specific in their criticism is contrary to the pillars of Wikipedia. Simonm223 (talk

) 12:54, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

This seems to be more about your opinion of the subject vs how to write an effective article. However, you hit on the correct point. If PragerU is a far right propoganda portal as you claim then we should find RSs that say that. We should summarize that position and include their examples. The article should have some sort of topic sentence, "Many of PragerU's videos contain misleading analyses or go against consensus views on a topic [citation]". This would be a topic sentence of a section. This article doesn't do that. Instead it has a dumping ground for random information called "Reception". If the article is going to imply that PragerU is spreading misinformation then we need RS's that say as much. I don't think that will be hard to find. What we should not have is a single example of a disputed claim made by a person in a PragerU video in the article with no higher level explanation as to why that is relevant to the broader subject. Why should the reader care that 0.2% of videos released by PragerU are disputed by this individual historian? Springee (talk) 13:23, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

I think the important question from a

WP:10YT perspective is, why should we care about PragerU? Simonm223 (talk

) 13:56, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• The article suffers from a lack of SUMMARIZATION. If we are going to discuss Prager’s internet presence, we shouldn’t be discussing individual videos (video by video)... instead we should summarize and discuss Prager videos as a whole. Blueboar (talk) 12:08, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
  • While that's likely a good idea, it's outside the scope of the question before us which is whether various sources are equivalently
    WP:DUE. Simonm223 (talk
    ) 12:09, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
    • Yes, but since questions of DUE are related here it's worth pointing out. Springee (talk) 12:13, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
      • Exactly... Before we can discuss weather a source is DUE, we need to determine if the material it supports is DUE. If we summarize more, we could probably avoid discussing individual videos (and thus avoid the need to include reactions to those individual videos). Blueboar (talk) 15:51, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• Reliable The source is reliable. POV/NOT concerns are another matter, and outside the scope of this noticeboard. --
  talk
  ) 17:13, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree that this was not the proper venue to discuss the actual dispute we were having, which should have been discussed on the talk page. Shinealittlelight (talk) 17:20, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• Reliable A person whose books and articles on fascism have been published by academic sources is expert enough to determine if D'Souza's "facts" about fascism are contrary to what fascism scholars say. TFD (talk) 03:33, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
• Reliable and due as far as I can tell. Connor Behan (talk) 20:28, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

1. Source. Title: Fiji in 'The Life and Times of Cakobau: The Bauan State to 1855'- A thesis submitted for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in the University of Otago, New Zealand. Author: Hurray P. Heasley, B.A. (Hons.), Otago. August, 2010. Page Number 31: Genealogy on the Origin of the 1st Vunivalu from Nakorotubu, Ra presented on page 31 by the late

2. Article. The above removed source was cited on

3. Content. On page 31, the late Solicitor and former

It is useful to reinstate this thesis to the article so that information on wikipedia are more informative and in totality according to the original objectives of the founders of Wikipedia. Saqiwa (talk) 08:31, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Is this thesis in some public repository, so we may look at it? And no, some politician is not a valid source for such claim. I would expect rigorous research in primary sources on part of the author of said thesis, it is useless otherwise. Pavlor (talk) 10:00, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

@

WP:NOR that was supplied to Heasley as a favor by the source (Ratu Joni Madraiwiwi), andthat was simply taken by Heasley to be true at face value. -- Marchjuly (talk

) 02:39, 30 September 2019 (UTC); [Note: Post edited by Marchjuly to clarify and for copyediting purposes; added content is underlined and removed content is strickenout. -- 01:35, 1 October 2019 (UTC)]<[Note:Post edited once again by Marchjuly to correct name of the thesis writer. -- 01:38, 3 October 2019 (UTC)]

Thanks. It is obvious the author of said thesis himself sees this issue as unresolved. Giving a definitive answer in Wikipedia voice would be certainly a misuse of this source. Source is useable, but not in the way presented by OP. Pavlor (talk) 05:46, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

@

Vice President of Fiji. He was also a Roko Tui Bau with obvious historical knowledge of the title of the Vunivalu of Bau. It would be unfair to totally dismiss his claims as he was a solicitor, as he had backed up his source from the Native Lands Commission (NLC) records of 'Tukutuku ni Yavusa o Kubuna' of the Bau commission hearing of 1929. Saqiwa (talk

) 07:20, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

If the original source is not the thesis or Ratu Joni Madraiwiwi, but rather "the Native Lands Commission (NLC) records of 'Tukutuku ni Yavusa o Kubuna' of the Bau commission hearing of 1929" then that's what should be cited if those records are considered to be a

WP:ELNEVER. Wikipedia can only link to content (including citations) where it reasonable to believe that the cite hosting the content is doing so with the permission of the original copyright holder. Diannaa is quite experienced when it comes to sorting out copyright matters on Wikipedia and her opinion is that the website hosting the thesis is not the original source of the thesis and it also doesn't seem to have permission to host the thesis from its copyright holder. So, unless it can be verified that the website does have permission, a link to it on that website cannot be added (even as part of a citation) to a Wikipedia article. -- Marchjuly (talk

) 01:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

There is no need to have direct link to the thesis (or any other "offline" source), informations about publisher etc. (or university library where the thesis is available in this case) should be enough. In general, thesis for doctoral degree is useable as a reliable source - with usual caveat of due weight. Is there any other higher quality source (I mean in respected peer reviewed journal) concerning this obscure ancestry topic? Note the thesis we discuss here is not useable as a source for claim presented above, because that is not what its author wrote (he presents two views, not a single one). On a side note, I don´t share your POV about citing de facto primary source. Thesis (or even better peer reviewed article in high quality journal or a book from a renowned scholar) is a secondary, independent, reliable source we are looking for. Pavlor (talk) 05:56, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

I should've clarified above that

WP:FIJI but never got a response. I also really just came across this article via a question at the Teahouse posted by Saqiwa a few weeks back and was trying to help him resolve the issues he was having with another editor named DrKay challenging his edits, particularly the sources being added as citations. That's the reason I actually suggested Saqiwa bring this up for discussion here so that get feedback from others, and I'm fine with whatever the consensus turns out to be. -- Marchjuly (talk

) 08:09, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

It's clear from Heasley that these genealogies are contentious and exist in many different versions. So even if one specific genealogy at the NLC says one thing, it's undue and bias to select it over the others. Either all variants should be presented or none. In this case, as it's all primary sources, probably none. If only one genealogy is discussed then it will have to be qualified as one variant among many. It's Murray Heasley, by the way, not Hurray. DrKay (talk) 17:01, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks DrKay for pointing out the thesis writer's correct name. I should've caught that myself, and shouldn't have assumed the name in the citation was automatically correct. FWIW, there are a number of hits for "Murray P. Heasley" who's an academic, but most seem to be related to something unrelated to this type of content. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:38, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Is it allowed to use tweets for reactions section in

• FIFA made a statement about Khodayari's death: "We are aware of that tragedy and deeply regret it."^[1]
• Paul Pogba, French footballer, tweeted: "Strength and prayers to family and friends of blue girl, Sahar Khodayari"^[2]
• Masoud Shojaei, Iranian football team captain, expressed his sorrow after Iran's win over Hong Kong on 11 September 2019: "Condolences, girls of Iran. Today, Team Melli lost because Sahar wasn't with us".^[3]
• Spanish Club FC Barcelona said: "FC Barcelona is very sorry to hear about the death of Sahar Khodayari, may she rest in peace. Football is a game for everyone - men AND women, and everyone should be able to enjoy the beautiful game together in stadiums."^[4]
• Farah Pahlavi, the last Shahbanu of Iran, tweeted a statement saying: "Sahar, one of the symbols of the Iranian women's fight against the Islamic regime, will be remembered forever."^[5]
• English Club
  Chelsea FC said: "We were deeply saddened to hear of the death of Sahar Khodayari. Football is a sport for all and we believe stadiums must be open to all."^[6]
• Spanish Club Real Betis said: "Even if a few days have gone by, we don't want to forget about this. For respect, tolerance and equality. Men and women. Boys and girls. Stadiums are for everyone. Today we turn blue in memory of Sahar Khodayari."^[7]
• Spanish Club RC Celta de Vigo tweeted: "The sport that we all love, should love us all. RIP #SaharKhodayari"^[8]
• Fran Beltrán, Spanish footballer, tweeted: "The most beautiful sport should not exclude anyone. Stadium never without women. This is about human rights."^[9]

There is no point, none of these reactions are notable or interesting. These sorts of comments will come up when anybody notable dies, and shouldn't be included in an article unless exceptional coverage has been generated about the tweets themselves. Zortwort (talk) 13:13, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

My thoughts... instead of listing each “reaction” separately (which gives each individual reaction undue weight)... SUMMARIZE them. Blueboar (talk) 13:20, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Blueboar:, yes if there were reliable source, you would be right and we have to summarize but now there is not reliable source!Saff V. (talk) 16:56, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

It is not original research to observe that several clubs/other related people expressed condolances and thus summarize it that way. That is definitely not a contentious fact that would need more explicit sourcing for to summarize. You can still use all the same twitter sources but just group them as a single grouped ref. --Masem (t) 17:09, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

You definitely can't summarise them because they are tweets= primary sources and so that would be original research. I think we need secondary sources so that we can be sure their reaction is notable.--SharabSalam (talk) 20:15, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Spacefacts is being used as a reference at Hazza Al Mansouri. The website has a somewhat amateur look, like the websites I was making in the mid '90s. The only page that provides any real information about the website gives the strong impression that it's little more than a fansite.[23] Neither of the people listed on the page seem notable and I was surprised to find that the website actually has an article on Wikipedia. Opinions? --AussieLegend (✉) 17:09, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

• Yeah... it is a non-expert fan site. The major contributors are not scientists or engineers (one is a lawyer, the other a community administrator). Not reliable. And I too question whether we should have an article devoted to it (its major claim to notability seems to be that it is cited a lot on the German Language WP.) Blueboar (talk) 18:44, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Not reliable, in my opinion. Even if its content is factual it's not a suitable source for anything. I've also nominated the Spacefacts page for speedy deletion as there is no indication of notability. Zortwort (talk) 21:46, 3 October 2019 (UTC)