Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 336

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RealClear media

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Moved from 
WP:RS/P

I'm wondering about the status of RealClear media, IOW

RealClearInvestigations (a redirect to RCP). My initial impression is that they are aggregators, but also with own, very biased, content. All I find is this thread opened by User:JzG
in November 2019:

Valjean (talk) 17:00, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

I just noticed this use at our conspiracy theory article Russia investigation origins counter-narrative:

Jeanine Pirro, a long-time friend of Trump,[1] described Mueller, FBI Director Christopher Wray (a Trump appointee), former FBI Director James Comey and other current/former FBI officials as a "criminal cabal,"[2] saying "There is a cleansing needed in our FBI and Department of Justice—it needs to be cleansed of individuals who should not just be fired, but who need to be taken out in cuffs."[3]

Here we have a combination of types of sources. All content at Wikipedia (other than
WP:ABOUTSELF) must come from RS, even to document the most ludicrous pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, etc. If something is not mentioned in RS, it does not have the due weight to be mentioned here. Period. That makes this use of RCP, if it is deemed unreliable, very dubious. The NYTimes and Salon should be enough. -- Valjean (talk
) 17:10, 14 December 2020 (UTC)


Sources

  1. ^ Grynbaum, Michael M. (December 22, 2017). "Jeanine Pirro of Fox News Helps an Old Friend: President Trump". The New York Times. Retrieved February 25, 2018.
  2. Real Clear Politics
    . Retrieved February 25, 2018.
  3. Salon
    . Retrieved February 25, 2018.
  • Generally Reliable--RCP has a very strong editorial board, with many award-winning journalists and writers: [2], and the site has a rigours fact-checking process: [3]. They are most well-known for their robust polling, which is published in numerous high-quality sources: The Guardian, Reuters, CNBC, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal. Likewise, Real Clear Investigations also seems to be referenced by reliable sources such as The Washington Post and NPR. RCP & RCI aggregates from different sources, though they do seem to have their own columnists. News vs. opinion is always clearly marked. Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d (talk) 03:05, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
    • While it's an interesting offering, the RCP Fact Check Review is a review of fact checks done by other organisations. The existence of this review doesn't add a lot of credibility to their own content. — Charles Stewart (talk) 14:32, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Judge by
    WP:RSOPINION. RCP is mainly known as an American conservative-leaning news and poll aggregator. It is mainly used on Wikipedia for its election predictions, the same way we use the Daily Kos (RSP entry) for its election predictions despite its unreliability. It also sees some use for its opinion pieces, which is usually appropriate depending on the identity of the opinion piece's author. Overall I don't think RCP publishes much straight news, if at all, so I would treat it as similar to Reason (RSP entry), The Spectator (RSP entry) or The Weekly Standard (RSP entry). feminist (talk)
    13:38, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
    • As for this specific page, it appears to simply include transcripts of a video. Authenticity is not in doubt when you can actually listen to the video. But why not just cite Fox News directly? feminist (talk) 13:41, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Unreliable - This is primarily an opinion site and partisan aggregator, not a reliable news source. It cannot reasonably be considered a RS. Go4thProsper (talk) 03:28, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Unreliable - Original material is not factually reliable, and aggregated material may not be accurately attributed. The Wall Street Journal has reported that RealClearPolitics for two years has been a significant source of links to Russia Today stories, and the provenance of the RT headlines was obscured. While much of the aggregated material may be reliable, it should be cited to the reliable source, not to RealClear. John M Baker (talk) 00:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Reliable They have a gatekeeping process demonstrated by multiple contributors organized in an editorial hierarchy; a physical presence by which they can be held liable for libel; and RS consider them reliable as evidenced by the fact their original reporting has been sourced by
    WP:RSOPINION, and extraordinary claims should be credited to the source and not presented in WP's voice regardless of the reliability of the source (at least when reported only by a single source). Chetsford (talk
    ) 04:44, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Unreliable. RealClear Media hosted (and may still host) a secret Facebook page promoting far-right memes and extremist conspiracy theories. This family of websites is mainly opinion pieces and aggregation of pieces published elsewhere. As for their sites that claim to do original reporting, their "RealClearInvestigations" site is backed by right-wing foundations and published an article supposedly revealing the identity of a protected whistleblower—something that reputable/mainstream news organizations chose not to do, because it would endanger the whistleblower and violate anti-retaliation principles. And as the Wall Street Journal reported in Oct. 2020, the aggregator has consistently funneled readers to Russian propaganda, while obscuring the source from browsing readers. All of this points to clear unreliability. Neutralitytalk 19:33, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
The WSJ story you site describes RealClear as "mainstream" and their poll average as "famous." Furthermore, I am unaware of any requirement that an RS refrain from publishing the identity of a whistleblower. For comparison, is the NYT unreliable because they blew a CIA program to catch terrorists via their finances [12]? Obviously that put lives at risk. Meanwhile, the NYT, which routinely advocates for restrictions on oil drilling in the USA, is owned in considerable part by Carlos Slim, who obviously benefits from such restrictions. In sum, you are condemning RealClear for things we appear to accept from other sources. Adoring nanny (talk) 03:37, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Conspiracy theories about "something something conservatives are being silenced" aren't a rational argument. "NY Post and Daily Mail were the only two sources who saw fit to report details of the sexual assault charges against Jacob Blake" is pure lying hooey: it was fact-checked by reputable news agencies (such as USA Today [16] and Reuters[17]) that contradicted the lies the Daily Fail and NY Post were putting out. IHateAccounts (talk) 18:51, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
Additionally, they are frequently cited even by FiveThirtyEight, their main competitor. —Wulf (talk) 23:08, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Reliable - I have seen no evidence of a systemic problem with facts presented by others commenting here. In fact, it appears a large portion of "unreliable" !votes are based on personal opinion as to the opinions - not the reporting. Unless concrete evidence of systematic fabrication is presented, there is no basis upon which to consider this unreliable. Not liking their opinions is not a reason to discount their facts. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 22:03, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Reliable particularly per Chetsford. A good indication of an unreliable conservative news source is how they approach medicine and science. RCP demonstrates that they are clearly following the scientific consensus on issues relating to the coronavirus [19]. Their criticism of Biden seems fair and appropriate [20] and backed up with statistics [21], and they even wrote an article quoting some Democrats in their defence against being labelled Socialist [22]. Just because it's "biased" or supports Trump, it doesn't make it unreliable. Kind regards,
    ping
    }} me in replies) 12:14, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Daily Sabah and Hürryet for Turkish nationality/citizenship of Kurdish refugees from Turkey

Currently there is an RfC on the topic at Hamdi Ulukaya, a successful Businessman living in the USA who has according to some sources has a Turkish citizenship, but for sure a Kurdish nationality/background as he often elaborates of the Turkish oppression of Kurds as a reason for why he fled to the USA and as is also stated in numerous articles of his. The RfC filer Clear Looking Glass prefers Turkish nationalist newspapers of the likes of Daily Sabah and Hürryiet to the New York Times, Forbes, Wall Street Journal in order to present him as Turkish, even only removed the Wall Street Journal, which I added before without changing the content and only included to show there exists another POV. As to me, to source the nationality/citizenship of Kurdish refugees, no Daily Sabah or Hürryet should be allowed, specially under the currently flawed Press Freedom in Turkey.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 05:59, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Of coure not but we shouldn't be calling him a "Kurdish refugee" either. Is
WP:RS/N needed to resolve this? Have there been other disputes about using these sources to source claims about nationality/citizenship? Unless it's a repeat problem we wouldn't deprecate but non-controversial sources may be preferred by some editors. Most non-controversial sources are using "Kurdish immigrant from Turkey". Hurriyet seems ok. This article about the death threats he has received from the far right in the US for his preferential hiring practice of immigrants [23]. Spudlace (talk
) 06:57, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
I just want a solution for the RS. Not about the Lead. For this is there is RfC. They edit warred Daily Sabah and Hürryet back in over Wall Street Journal etc. and I mentioned this was not appropriate at the Article talk page. They are quite determined to use these sources to edit war them back in. Then Kurdish immigrant from Turkey is not good for the lead. I'd go with Kurdish-American businessman, but this option was later removed by the filer.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 08:03, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
I've mentioned on the talk page that there are sources that also refer to him as being "Kurdish" or "Kurdish-born" or a "Kurd from Turkey" etc, just as there are sources from the websites you've mentioned (like The NYT, Forbes, Wall Street Journal, etc) describing him as being "Turkish" or "Turkish-born" or "Turkish American". After reading more about the Daily Sabah, I'm now not sure about using the source. But as "Spudlace" said, Hurryiet seems okay. Pardon me for getting off topic, but I'm not trying to present him as only being "Turkish". I’m aware of his citizenship, situation, ethnicity, etc. But that’s being discussed in the appropriate pages. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 06:35, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

macrotrends net (2)

Pinging Timtempleton. The ANI discussion ended up with blocking the user in question, who has added a great number of refs to macrotrends net, but I think the question whether macrotrends is a reliable source has been left unanswered. So, here I am re-posting it again (macrotrends has been discussed here before in 2018, but there was no real resolution tbh). Is macrotrends.net a reliable source? And if not, someone would have to go through all of GAME's recent edits adding it I suppose.

-- Mvbaron (talk) 06:57, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Mvbaron: Thank you for reaching out. This is something that has been bothering me also. There are two issues here. The first is that the site seems to be simply an aggregator of financial data, but there’s very little information about their ownership. But they are selling access to something that is otherwise free. Their agenda is suspect. I’m not saying it’s going to happen, but at any point any one of those links could be turned into an ad. I think it would be preferable to use an original site such as the SEC’s financial posting page. The second issue is that this seems to clearly have been an effort to raise the visibility of the site. By leaving those links there, we are rewarding this bad behavior and are encouraging others to come back and keep trying to do this same thing. So even if the site isn’t automatically blocked, like .xyz domains, there should be a note to avoid links to macrotrends dot net whenever possible. TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 12:57, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
@
WP:RS tho. Another thing: macrotrends states that they take their data from zacksdata.com [24] I'm not sure about the status of that site either tbh. (ad 2) Yeah I'm allergic against refspam too, but I suppose it depends on what comes out here... Mvbaron (talk
) 13:26, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

adl.org/blog (Anti-Defamation League Blog)

Something that popped up during the discussion at COI/N. While on RSN, ADL is listed as "reliable", there is only one entry. Should their blog section be separated out just as sources like Fox New, Huffington Post are depending on the section where the contents are listed? Graywalls (talk) 11:21, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

What specific information are you trying to source to the blog? --Jayron32 13:46, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
Newspaper and magazine blogs allows "online columns they call blogs," provided "the writers are professionals." Their latest article is "The Women Facing Charges for January 6, 2021" (April 6, 2021), which provides information about the women facing charges for the January 6, 2021 attack on the U.S. Capitol. I have no reason to believe that the authors have falsified the information in the article and assume it is just as reliable as an article in legacy media. TFD (talk
) 02:10, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
What
WP:UNDUE. Guy's approach of not using a source that is very likely to be challenged is good practice. Spudlace (talk
) 23:56, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Ourcampaigns.com (again)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.



At least 1000 articles now cite ourcampaigns.com. The site's
FAQ says:

OurCampaigns is an internet community formed in 2002 to discuss politics and elections. It is a collaborative website which allows users to post messages and links, earn points by predicting the outcomes of future elections, and enter historical election information. The website is built by the members as they enter site content.

When you create an account, you are able to post messages. With good solid participation in this area, the website owner (Randy) or others with high enough access may increase your access to more functions of site creation. This will enable you to help make the website more comprehensive and useful for other people who are interested in politics. This is the true power of the website.

OurCampaigns (OC) is also a web community. The users become a small e-family, which means that family dynamics come into play in the discussions. Be quick to forgive, slow to take offense, and quick to admit an error. Most of all, enjoy your time at OC!

Previous discussions:

  • Jan 2009: Post suggesting it be removed from all articles
  • Sep 2010: "looks like an open Wiki"
  • July 2014: points to request for blacklist, declined because "site is dead"
  • Dec 2017: brief discussion
  • May 2020: discussion that leans toward reliable for election results, but some reservations stated
  • Feb 2021: RfC that elapsed; consensus seems to indicate generally unreliable, disagreement over blacklisting; archived without closure

To me, the site is clearly

WP:UGC and I was challenging it as a reliable source for date of birth on a BLP, but then I looked and saw how often it's referenced in articles. I'd like to have a community consensus to point to before I keep fighting its use on that one article. Schazjmd (talk)
23:03, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Ballotpedia (which is not an open wiki) is generally a better source for political information of this sort. Some of the Ourcampaigns content (specifically their potential candidates) appears to be speculation by unknown persons. Without more investigation, I won't support deprecating it completely (they do have some control over their content), but it should not be relied upon for BLP info such as a birthdate. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 02:04, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
I see no reason why we should ever be citing OC. Perhaps it can be a resource to find primary sources, but there are much better sites to source election results to because it's UGC. Reywas92Talk 02:59, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Ourcampaigns shouldn't be cited in articles - and ideally not used at all, but sadly, for sourcing some obscure detailed past election results (for county maps), they're the only realistically available source. At the risk of potentially inaccurate county maps, I feel like it should be allowed for that purpose. Otherwise, no. Elli (talk | contribs) 10:16, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Schazjmd, I think this is basically a fansite, no better than a blog, and should be removed wherever it is seen. The long-standing issues suggest a mainspace edit filter, at least. Guy (help! - typo?) 12:08, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Generally unreliable, but don't blacklist because county maps are useful information to link to that are often not found in other sources. Jackattack1597 (talk) 21:43, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Is arealnews.com a reliable source?

I am working on this draft and I was searching on the web for more sources when I find his bio. Here's a link to the website. I don't know if this is reliable so can someone tell me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SVcode (talkcontribs)

Doesn't seem reliable. Looks as though it brands itself as a blog more than as a serious news organization. --Aknell4 (talk) 15:49, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
No. It's a random Wordpress-powered aggregator/blog. No way of knowing who writes their content, or where it comes from. Don't go near it. GirthSummit (blether) 16:07, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

A request regarding RFCs

It is not uncommon for this noticeboard to have multiple RFCs running at the same time. This is fine. However, because we tend to set up our RFCs using the same subheadding format ("Survey option 1", "Survey option 2", "Discussion", etc), it can become confusing as to which RFC a comment is being added to.

I suggest that we need to better disambiguate our subheadings - In an RFC about "source X", the subheadings should be something like: Source X RFC - survey option 1... while those for source Y would have subheadings such as: Source Y RFC - Discussion. This simple fix would quickly separate the comments related to X and Y (and Z etc) when checking our watchlists... and would help us keep track of which RFCs people are commenting upon. Blueboar (talk) 17:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

This sounds great to me. Jlevi (talk) 17:54, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Yes, agreed. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:44, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Definitely, I've literally just changed a subheading from "Survey" to "Survey (California Globe)" for exactly these reasons. Thryduulf (talk) 09:51, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
This is a great suggestion and one that editors should feel free to implement themselves if other editors forget or don't know to do this. (Personally, I'd like us to discourage so many RfCs being opened, especially for sources that have not been previously discussed and have not yet proven to be especially contentious. That would also help with the issue that has been raised in this suggestion.) ElKevbo (talk) 22:03, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
I would also agree with that. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:40, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Pauline Montagna

Does anyone have any information concerning:

What little I found states Montagna has a BA in history.? --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:38, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Montagna seems to primarily be a hobbyist writer who dabbles in speculative historical fiction and sometimes historical writing. The cited source itself has a couple of historical errors in it, so I wouldn't consider her writing significantly reliable, as she's more of a hobbyist form what I can gather. The linked source does cite Domestic Slavery in Renaissance Italy by Sally McKee, so you might want to seek that out if you're looking to use this information in an article from a reliable source, as that comes from an academic source (you can read it here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232851490_Domestic_Slavery_in_Renaissance_Italy1)
talk
) 00:19, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Unless there are sources within it that are useful, I would say it probably doesn't pass muster. I would say that Medium is on the same level as Blogspot or Wordpress (maybe on a good day the Forbes contributor section). I think that the site basically lets anyone publish pieces. I welcome people proving me wrong. Bkissin (talk) 20:49, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

RfC: California Globe

I've been seeing The California Globe, which is owned by Sea of Reeds Media, showing up in some California political articles (currently 27). They generally cover political news with the occasional opinion columns, however the distinction is not apparent within the articles. Therefore, I am asking for community comment on the reliability of the site for future reference. Which of the following describes The California Globe the best?

  • Option 1: Generally
    reliable
    for factual reporting
  • Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
  • Option 3: Generally
    unreliable
    for factual reporting
  • Option 4:
    Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated

BriefEdits (talk) 07:34, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Survey (California Globe)

@
WP:FRS until a shorter statement is provided. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk
) 22:22, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
  • @Redrose64:. Sorry for the hassle. I've pared down the statement and tried to make it neutral. — BriefEdits (talk) 23:48, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose Option 4 No evidence has been presented why it should be classified as option 4. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:49, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Sorry guys. This is my first RfC and I'll remove the fourth option (I just thought it was the default options to list). I'm not too familiar with proper posting procedures and just mimicked the other RfC's I saw on the page. I'll try to adjust it as best I can. — BriefEdits (talk) 23:26, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure an RFC should be needed here - it is a "news organization" (in quotation marks sarcastically) but it has only 3 real employees, and appears to crowdsource its news with minimal fact checking (including to a high school student in one instance I found). I furthermore find no evidence they have a robust retraction policy nor any place to submit tips/report factual inaccuracies (beyond emails for the editors... which is very odd to have listed on the main page). At most, I think it can be considered possibly reliable for local news, but it does not meet any of the thing I'd look for for any sort of reliability in general. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 23:41, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 1 and use attribution. The New Jersey Globe, a sister news site of the California Globe, seems to have done media reporting that has been cited by local and national outlets (Politico Fox News, NY Daily News, Philly Voice, the Daily Voice, NJ 101.5) and was taken seriously enough for
    WP:USEBYOTHERS
    argument would lead me to believe that the New Jersey Globe is likely reliable in its media reporting.
The sort of
talk
) 17:06, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3, generally unreliable for factual reporting - per the information provided by bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez regarding their methods. They sound flaky AF, to be blunt. That in combination with strong is a disastrous recipe. Especially if they use *crowdsourcing* for information, and their readers are tinfoil hat wearing wingnuts. Firejuggler86 (talk) 00:22, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4. It is a fake news site, in the sense of a site that falsely portrays itself as a news source. It doesn't publish fake news as far as I can see, but there's no original reporting and no proper attribution, so this material is of questionable provenance and the main aim seems to be selling clicks. Guy (help! - typo?) 08:58, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3. The majority of the content on The California Globe is written by either Evan Symon or Katy Grimes, who are also listed as the editors. This is not an adequate editorial process, and makes the site the equivalent of a
    WP:BLPSPS: "Never use self-published sources—including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets—as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article." — Newslinger talk
    18:32, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3 per Newslinger. There is no evidence at all of editorial fact checking. Thryduulf (talk) 20:17, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3 per Newslinger, no evidence of sound editorial practice.--Droid I am (talk) 06:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3 - As others mentioned, this more seems like an opinion-pushing source than a newspaper with editorial oversight. The first article I check from its first page is dedicated to echoing, in its own voice, a dubious claim, based on some random person's quote that obviously misrepresents an event... Convincing me that 3 is generous. —PaleoNeonate – 07:47, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3 as the comments above, generally unreliable with lack of editorial check.Sea Ane (talk) 12:37, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4 Opinion pushing site with no apparent editorial oversightJackattack1597 (talk) 19:35, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3 - summoned by bot: per Newslinger reasoning I checked the 14 most recent articles under "The Recent Headlines" and found all of them except 2 were write by either Grimes or Symon, the Senior Editor and the Editor in Cheif. The other two articles were written by Chris Micheli who is a lobbyist[25]. If majority of site is writen and edited by same two people, it lacks significant editorial oversite to be reliable. WikiVirusC(talk) 16:53, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3 The highest that can be said about them is that they aren't bad enough for option 4, but it's effectively a glorified blog really, lacks sufficient editorial controls. 92.24.246.11 (talk) 21:42, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Discussion: April 12 closure

Mikehawk10, I see no reason why you would close this RfC this early [26], especially as an involved editor. There is no clear consensus at this stage between Option 3 and Option 4 and it would be better to wait it out a little to have stronger consensus and, as a result, stronger legitimacy down the line. JBchrch (talk
) 09:21, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I've reopened the RfC per ) 09:27, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Sounds good; my bad ok the premature close. I had closed it because the RfC had elapsed and the discussion looked as if it overwhelmingly favored Option 3 (which is not my position but it clearly looks like that of the community), so I could list it at
talk
) 15:26, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Absolutely no problem ) 09:56, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

RfC: thrashocore.com

Which of the following best describes the reliability of thrashocore.com?

  • Option 1:
    Generally reliable for factual reporting
  • Option 2:
    Unclear or additional considerations apply
  • Option 3:
    Generally unreliable for factual reporting
  • Option 4:
    Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated

--TheSandDoctor Talk 06:31, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Survey (thrashocore.com)

  • Option 3 A well done fansite with a mix of album reviews and track listings. I don't see a lot of use of it anyways as a source of factual information since it has little else besides reviews and track listings. Reviews are opinion, and not used as reliable information anyways, and track listings are cited to the work itself. I'm not sure what else someone would use this site for; but on the off chance that there's some chance it might be used for factual information, it probably shouldn't be. --Jayron32 14:59, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
  • See
    WP:FANSITE. Not a source. Guy (help! - typo?
    ) 11:45, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3 per Jayron32. Chompy Ace 09:09, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3 per their own site, they're a semicasual bunch of bigtime fans who made their own fan site and did a good job of it. Which is cool, but they aren't reliable nor do they pretend to be. 92.24.246.11 (talk) 21:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Discussion (thrashocore.com)

  • thrashocore.com was first discussed at WikiProject Albums (since archived), but received insufficient participation to gauge sufficient consensus. As such, I am bringing it up here. Pinging the only participant in the previous discussion (excluding myself), @Sergecross73:. --TheSandDoctor Talk 06:31, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
    What kind of information are you trying to source to the site (which cannot be found elsewhere)? --Jayron32 13:44, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
    @Jayron32: I don’t want to source anything to it. It was brought up as a source to demonstrate notability of an album this past fall. At the time, I said it was probably under SPS as it is a self described zine. I figured that wider discussion of its reliability would be beneficial for future reference should it be mentioned at a discussion. I attempted discussing at WikiProject Albums, but it received insufficient participation, aside from Sergecross73 agreeing it does not appear to be a reliable source. —TheSandDoctor Talk 03:10, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
    An RfC is probably not necessary, if it hasn't been discussed here before. Elli (talk | contribs) 10:14, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
    What specific thing was being referenced from that site? Was it a track listing? A review written by a known journalist? An interview? --Jayron32 11:27, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
    @Jayron32: An album review [28]. Kleim Antyne doesn't exist and there are few results for them in google (not that that is the world though). --TheSandDoctor Talk 14:26, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
    A single album review is hard to hang an entire article on. If there's nowhere else to get reliable information about the band from, then there's nothing to write an article about. Even if we take the website as reliable (and a review is not a source of factual information, it's the opinion of the author, so reliability is less of a thing here, we're only concerned with the relevance of the opinion), a review is not factual information to use to write an article around. --Jayron32 14:33, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
    @
    WP:ALBUMAVOID. I am trying to get consensus (regardless of what that is) so that this can be referred to in future. --TheSandDoctor Talk
    14:41, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
    Gotcha. --Jayron32 14:55, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Which of the following best describes the reliability of The Federalist?

  • Option 1: Generally
    reliable
    for factual reporting
  • Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
  • Option 3: Generally
    unreliable
    for factual reporting
  • Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be
    deprecated as in the 2017 RfC of the Daily Mail

NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:07, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Survey (The Federalist)

Thanks, I didn't realise that simple search doesn't search in the source text. Alaexis¿question? 20:57, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Make that over 200 in article space. –dlthewave 03:56, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
The harassment of users who dare defend a conservative source continues.
ping
}} me in replies) 11:42, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Unacceptable
WP:ASPERSION and dispute personalization, —PaleoNeonate
– 19:54, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Aquillion - first of all, saying that it appears is not a statement of fact. There is a big difference between it appears and it is. Things can take on an appearance and that is not a false statement. Keep in mind, every conspiracy begins with a theory, and circumstantial evidence is based on what things appear to be. Your accusations against me speak volumes, particularly the ridiculous statement that comparable
WP:RSes that spread conspiracy theories in 2004 is breathtakingly wrong. You were joking, right? Start here and do your own research. I simply don't have the time or the inclination to do it for you. There are also plenty of sources for you to examine at 2004 United States election voting controversies. Happy editing! Atsme 💬 📧
00:29, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
The piece ends with the only possible conclusion one can come to right now is that Democrats are trying to steal the election in the Midwest - this is obviously, patiently false. And it is equally absolutely, unequivocally false that there were
WP:RS to become a race to the bottom, especially with vague handwavy "everybody does it!" statements like yours. It would be bad enough to have a reliability race to the bottom against actual, concrete examples, but to do it against this vaguely-defined cloud of conspiratorial thinking is plainly a recipe for disaster. --Aquillion (talk
) 02:54, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
Are you going to suggest deprecating New York Magazine and the Washington Post for saying the same things? —Wulf (talk) 21:28, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
Would not surprise me with how this noticeboard is turning out. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 18:28, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3 i.e. oppose deprecation. The Federalist is a significant voice on the Republican right and is therefore usable as opinion. But it is a source for opinion, not for fact. As far as I know, the Daily Mail publishes minimal opinion. feminist (talk) 17:10, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 2 with reluctance and surprise. I came in here ready to !vote Option 3, however, my standard first check is to see if RS reference the source. As I've repeatedly said here, we cannot undertake independent textual analysis of any source to determine its reliability. Our only standard (with a small number of exceptions) is if RS think the source is reliable. The most cursory of checks finds its original reporting recently sourced by
    WP:RSOPINION applies. Chetsford (talk
    ) 20:30, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
    I clicked through the examples and they're trivial--the sort of thing where the Federalist was the first to report something that happened on the right (like Hawley's new book deal), so sources reporting on it are obliged to credit the Federalist. Against that are the examples above of the Federalist trading in election and COVID conspiracy theories. There's a real difference in magnitude here that requires further explication. Mackensen (talk) 21:31, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
    Yes, comments like The Tyranny of Big Tech will now be published by Regnery, a conservative press, in a deal first reported by the Federalist, a rightwing outlet (from the Guardian) are typical when a low-quality source is technically the first to "break" a story. They don't really contribute to the respectability of the low-quality source; for example, they could be first because it was deliberately leaked to them in order to reach their audience for PR purposes.
    talk
    ) 20:33, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4. It has got markedly worse since the runup to the 2020 US election, and now peddles the Big Lie with abandon. It'sa important to draw a distinction between factual sources with some opinion content, and opinion sources. The Federalist is not a factual source. Its content is all opinion - either a straight retelling of opinion from elsewhere (e.g. the repetition of the lies told from the Odal Rune Stage at CPAC this week) or opinion by its own contributors. We should never be using The Federalist as a source of fact. With the current levels of COVID and election conspiraciost nonsense, we should also raise a very high bar to its use as a primary source for comment: if we want to describe the opinions they publish, then do it based on third party reporting. Guy (help! - typo?) 09:26, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4 - The promotion of COVID-19 conspiracy theories does it for me. Sorry, it's one thing to be biased, but this is medical information that could save lives. Any source has to be reliable for what it says, it what it says can't be trusted as a matte of course it is not an RS.Slatersteven (talk) 11:24, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3, leaning 4 Pure opinion that frequently veers into literal fake news, especially with health care and election topics. Zaathras (talk) 22:19, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4: I've thought this was missing from RSP for a while as an obvious "red or worse" listing. I would have initially thought option 3 but the conspiracy theories around the 2020 U.S. election and COVID-19 pandemic are completely disqualifying from taking this website seriously on anything. — Bilorv (talk) 00:08, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4 Peddling falsehoods and conspiracy theories about the two biggest issues of the past year in the US (COVID-19 and the election) should totally disqualify a source as RS. NightHeron (talk) 17:02, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3. You can find good and bad in it, but as far as The Federalist is concerned we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 08:52, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3. It certainly shouldn't be used for factual claims, but no one has presented any evidence that the Federalist falsifies the opinions of its contributors. If a person's opinion is relevant to the article, and that opinion has been published in the Federalist, then the Federalist is an acceptable source to report that opinion. The extra step of complete deprecation is unnecessary. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 22:29, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4. Seems like a clear call. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:36, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4 The conspiracy theories around the covid-19 and the election fraud says it all.Sea Ane (talk) 22:27, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4. The Federalist has repeatedly promoted both the
    COVID-19 conspiracy theories (per XOR'easter, Chillabit, and others), thus crossing the threshold for deprecation. — Newslinger talk
    06:05, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4 per NorthBySouthBaranof, XOR'easter and David Gerard. starship.paint (exalt) 09:23, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4 a partisan organ of opinion that is widely noted for its conspiracy theories. Coretheapple (talk) 17:49, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4 per its publication of misinformation during the COVID-19 pandemic and in the wake of the 2020 US presidential election.Grnrchst (talk) 21:45, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4. The evidence presented clearly shows that this source repeatedly published false and fabricated information and promotes conspiracy theories. Thryduulf (talk) 17:30, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4 per Newslinger. Chompy Ace 21:54, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4 propaganda vehicle funded by right-wing free market supporting billionaires and their ilk, via FDRLST Media Foundation. Acousmana (talk) 14:15, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 1 or 2 per Atsme and Chetsford. RS:OPINION definitely applies here, as the source does not differentiate between news and opinion articles. See, for example, three articles about Edward Snowden all published in December: Edward Snowden Is A Hero Who Deserves a Full Pardon by Jordan Schachtel, Edward Snowden Isn’t A Hero And Doesn’t Deserve A Presidential Pardon by Alex Plitsas, and Rand Paul: President Trump Should Pardon Edward Snowden by… Senator Rand Paul). Additionally, their content is frequently featured in the Wall Street Journal’s Notable & Quotable and Best of the Web sections. —Wulf (talk) 21:28, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 3 - I grew up with The Federalist being a standard conservative publication that I read fairly often, but their readership and standards have long since changed and the willingness to publish mistruths and conspiracies. Those preferring option 1 or 2 above have not convinced me of that at all. That said, I don't know that this rises to the Daily Mail level and my reading of the relevant policies/the DM RfC doesn't get me there. Alyo (chat·edits) 19:35, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4, not terribly opposed to #3. They have outed themselves by perpetuating knowingly-false election fraud propaganda. Whatever past credibility they once had as classic conservatives with at least a reputation for honesty has ben shot. ValarianB (talk) 19:46, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
    Is this an option 4 then, or an option 1 for historical content and option 3 for more recent content? Your vote says one thing, but your reasoning says another. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:23, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
    Um, no, I said nothing of the sort. Don't project your own biases upon me, please. The Federalist has become a dumpster fire of purposefully fake news of late, I only have a slight hesitation of putting them all the way down at the bottom of said dumpster alongside the Daily Mail. ValarianB (talk) 03:20, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
    past credibility they once had as classic conservatives with at least a reputation for honesty -- Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:45, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 2 and acknowledge its bias. If we deprecate every source that praises President Trump and what he stands for, challenges COVID germophobia, and/or questions the legitimacy of the 2020 election, but fail to deprecate all of the left wing sources, it's time to deprecate
    WP:NPOV as well because nearly all right wing sources do those three things. That said, there's certain things it should be used for, because it is biased in favor of the right. PCHS-NJROTC (Messages)Have a blessed day.
    20:33, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 4, but as has been said, kind of okay with option 3 as well. I go back and forth, because it certainly used to be a reliable source, and took a recent decided nosedive. I predict it will pull itself back together, but as it stands right now there's little evidence of that. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 20:38, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 2 has there been any left-leaning sources rated as unreliable by RS/N yet? Or is this a personal collection of left-leaning activists that dominate this site anyways. Wp:Cabals is totally a conspiracy theory. 205.175.106.86 (talk) 22:16, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
    Left-leaning sources are rated as unreliable when they are, for example The Canary was rated as unreliable a few days ago, the Daily Star was deprecated last year, Occupy Democrats was deprecated in 2018. Thryduulf (talk) 23:04, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
    Also Alternet, Daily Kos, and the Palmer Report are not acceptabe sources. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:12, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
    Yes, but irrelevant. The issue is not political lean, but reliability. The Federalist is not a reliable source of fact, it is a political activist site designed and intended to sway opinion. Guy (help! - typo?) 12:06, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    Of course it involves political lean but not always. I don't want want to bust anybody's bubble but no news source in today's clickbait enviroment is flawless - they took a little more care when it involved printing. It's easy to find the mistakes and misinformation reported by MSNBC, CNN, CBS, NBC and you'll see plenty, not counting that which was whisked away from public view after they got caught; most was simply ignored. You can start with this list, Rachel Maddow, oh, and Bob Dylan is still alive, and so is Tom Petty, MSNBC misidentifies the race of a suspect, Joy Reid under fire for false election claims, MSNBC host Lawrence O'Donnell retracts and apologizes for thinly sourced Trump finances story. CBS fired 4 executives, and most recent is is the 60 minutes controversy. Hopefully, my point has been made so I don't have to go back and add the links to demonstrate how The NYTimes kept a fake reporter employed for 4 years and had to return a Pulitzer, and also WaPo had to return a Pulitzer for a different fake story. Atsme 💬 📧 17:13, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 2 per Atsme and Chetsford.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 02:38, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Discussion (The Federalist)

  • Previous discussion from 2019 indicates similar problems with deliberate promotion of conspiracy theories by the Federalist. Here's some 2018 promotion of conspiracy theories:[37]. The site has promoted COVID-19 conspiracy theories[38]; a former contributor called the Federalist a "conspiracy-mongering partisan rag that has now become a menace to public health"[39]. If advocates have any excuses to offer for this history of fabrication and deliberate misinformation, that would be useful to hear - otherwise this looks very deprecable - David Gerard (talk) 12:40, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Regarding the Covid conspiracy theory, how is it different from all the newspapers that said that masks are mostly needed for people working with patients [40]? This was an article from April 2020 when we knew little about covid and even expert opinion fluctuated a lot. Do you have other examples (I haven't voted yet)? Alaexis¿question? 21:19, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
The Federalist is political, thus their takes will draw ire from the opposing side and will definitely lead to comments like found in the New Yorker. One cannot make a good judgement based on those alone, otherwise it were possible to kill the 'reliable source' stateus of any smaller media by an astroturfing campaign. It is also important to separate opinion from reporting - the New Yorker source is based on pieces in the Federalist that appear as opinion to me. You should not use opinion as a reliable source of anything else than the opinion itself, but it cannot overtly be used to discredit a publication. The better publications sometimes publish disclaimers stating the opinion they publish is not the official one of the publication. It would be odd, though to require this method for any take that somebody could consider controversial. --91.153.156.132 (talk) 12:21, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
This is actually a good point: The Federalist is a political opinion publication. That alone is sufficient for it to be unreliable as a source of fact, and this is reinforced when the political opinions are so often counterfactual (as with their views on COVID and the 2020 election). We should never use it. Guy (help! - typo?) 11:38, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • David Gerard, "It’s worth considering, however, whether the Trumpiest intellectuals are about to face their reckoning with the novel coronavirus."
    Predictably, no they didn't. They will roll out of the pandemic with their delusions entirely unshaken, like creationists faced with a tiktaalik and still demanding a crocoduck. Guy (help! - typo?) 11:37, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • There is this usage of the editor by the BBC, alongside usage of university professors. [41] -- --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:11, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
    • I don't see how the "political editor" being on a podcast translates to the website being reliable. People get chosen for panels, interviewed on TV, etc., for all sorts of reasons, sometimes just because they're visible.
      talk
      ) 22:29, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
      They were picked by the professional journalist "Ritula Shah", presumably as one of the experts. I have not actually listened to it, so there is a small chance that Davidson was not actually on the expert panel. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:30, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
      Emir of Wikipedia, the BBC has also interviewed David Icke. Guy (help! - typo?) 11:33, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
      Was he put on the same level as university professors though? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:16, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Similar can be said about every single news source at one time or another. We should not be downgrading entire sources based on biased views during a small window of time based on political biases. It is unacceptable from both my perspective and that of WP:RS, and yes, RS and NPOV are where views align closest. Atsme 💬 📧 15:31, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Per the link to our own article on this source which XOR'easter provided earlier up-thread, I'd like to note one sort of information The Federalist was publishing last spring: "It published a piece by someone identified as a physician in Oregon who recommended that people hold "chickenpox"-style parties for the coronavirus to build herd immunity, but the recommendations were contrary to those of public health experts, and the author in question did not have a medical license...". One source mentioning this: NYT. I would venture to say this was even worse misinformation than more recent insinuations regarding masks, vaccines, and the origins of COVID-19, as it specifically advised people to go out and get infected. I actually would not have expected this level of misinfo, but there it is in black and white. --Chillabit (talk) 19:51, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
You are using the term misinformation is an inappropriate way. The author is question is indeed an experienced (yet retired) physician and his recommendations were rooted in established methods of treatment (Controlled Voluntary Infection). Experts can disagree and ultimately the CDC or whatever agency produces recommendations. But proposing alternative methods of treatment, especially in such a chaotic and unprecedented health crisis, is not to be frowned upon. Nweil (talk) 19:56, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
This paper seems to do with the ethical considerations, not the empirical ones. The official recommendations from the time don't exactly come out of nowhere, it's out of an abundance of caution in reaction to a situation you recognize as chaotic, and one which we didn't quite have the data yet to fully understand. --Chillabit (talk) 07:37, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
That piece did not actually recommend “that people hold ‘chickenpox’-style parties for the coronavirus”. Rather, it suggested that the government consider establishing controlled infection and quarantine centers. It is not true that it “specifically advised people to go out and get infected”. —Wulf (talk) 21:28, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
  • confused face icon Just curious...how many of these types of articles are needed to substantiate the fact that there are plenty of mainstream news sources that consensus has determined to be RS despite the skeletons in their closets? Just wondering...Atsme 💬 📧 01:29, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
    Just look at the below RFC about the Canary, which is more biased and more false, yet on Wikipedia, it's not as evil as a conservative news source. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:41, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
    The Canary is certainly biased. It's difficult to say more biased than The Federalist given the sources have very different biases and primarily cover different markets, but they are certainly both more biased than average. On the basis of the evidence provided though, "more false" is certainly incorrect - The Canary has not been proven to repeatedly promote completely debunked conspiracy theories after they have been debunked. Thryduulf (talk) 17:29, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
  • I just read the article that NorthbySouthBaronof cited in his iVote - and yes, the headline is sensationalistism but they all do it, and there's bias mixed with spin but they all do it. The article ended with the following: Unless election officials in Michigan and Wisconsin can explain the overnight vote-dumps and, in Michigan, the “typo” that appeared to benefit Biden, and Pennsylvania officials can explain their rationale for counting ballots with no postmark, the only possible conclusion one can come to right now is that Democrats are trying to steal the election in the Midwest. Was there a follow-up? Regardless, that article is opinion journalism mixed with facts and they all do it. If that's the reason for downgrading this source, then downgrade them all because they all do the same thing except with a different bias and spin because they are writing for their demographics. The main difference is whether they spin right or left. I think people who align with the left can readily see the bias in articles that lean right and vice versa. Bias is not a reason to deprecate or downgrade a RS. That is an IDONTLIKEIT reason, and has nothing to do with CONTEXT or the reliability of a source. The author John Daniel Davidson is a credible journalist, and has had his work published in the WSJ, National Review, Texas Monthly, The Guardian, etc. Here is his January 2021 article which speaks to the same topic. Our job is to include such material per DUE using in-text attribution cited to that source. We don't bury it because we don't like what he's saying. We provide ALL significant views, but if we keep downgraded sources just because we don't like what they say and don't align with political perspectives, then we're going to run out of the kinds of sources we need to maintain NPOV, and that would be a travesty. Atsme 💬 📧 00:02, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
  • It seems to me that several of the support votes are suggesting that, while the Federalist may have posted deliberately misleading information about COVID-19 and the aftermath of the 2020 US elections, the site shouldn't be deprecated because so many right-wing sites published that type of information that to deprecate all of them would introduce bias. One obvious solution is that we should prefer secondary sources published after-the-fact instead of contemporaneous news which may contain what people hope rather than what is fact. I feel the views of those who insist in April 2021 that Donald Trump is currently serving as President of the United States can be ignored. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 21:25, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Indeed. As everybody knows, the current US president is Teddy Roosevelt.[Citation Needed] --Guy Macon (talk) 22:05, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Washington Post have its rating downgraded like Fox News

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-call-georgia-investigator/2021/01/09/7a55c7fa-51cf-11eb-83e3-322644d82356_story.html

WaPo has retracted a massive controversial story around the election. It's extremely unusual for a news source to retract a news story fo this caliber. It's not the first time supposedly reliable sources have been forced to retract stories (first hit after a 30 sec search). I doubt the wikiactivist cabal will actually care, but if outlets like Fox News have been given a lower rating, I don't see how WaPo can be objectively be given full trust by a website that is supposed to be encyclopedic. 205.175.106.86 (talk) 04:11, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

That's a correction, not a retraction, and it's what reputable organizations do when they publish things that turn out to be wrong. Unlike, say, The Federalist, which still proudly declares that "Democrats are trying to steal the election". The material difference between Trump saying "find the fraud" and asserting that there was "dishonesty" in the vote, and between Trump saying the official would be "a national hero" and saying she had "the most important job in the country right now" is negligible at best. Several quotes were incorrect, but the thrust of the story is still true, and in fact proven by the release of the tape - Trump attempted to personally pressure a state election official into doing what he wanted her to do. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:24, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Was this even a massive controversial story? I'm not an American but I've never heard of this before even though I had heard a lot about this before. There seem to be 2 factors of significance here. One is that the request to find votes (not "find the votes" which AFAICT, no reputable source has ever said was said) was much more controversial. That story came out before this one on "find the fraud". Two is that this story only came out of the Capitol Hill riots. So while I'm sure it gained a reasonable interest, I don't think it was as massive as you suggest. As further evidence quite a few crazy sources and forums an the like are incorrectly reporting that the Washington Post retracted the story on finding votes even though that's just silly as the audio has been there for them to listen to all this time. Nil Einne (talk) 12:02, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Agree, WaPo has been consistently inaccurate for a long period of time. The Covington affair is one example. It's russian propaganda article is another. Should be unreliable.Nweil (talk) 06:20, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Nweil, what do you propose? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 15:04, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
There was a recent noticeboard discussion at
WP:RSN § Washington Post and CNN that was closed with consensus against your position. — Newslinger talk
15:53, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
The
January 2019 Lincoln Memorial confrontation is a single instance for which there was a specific outcome. The other is an explanatory note after some websites complained following WaPo's coverage of a third parties investigation, and that third party subsequently removed those sites from the list unrelated to WaPo. Other instances brought up during the recent RSN were tiny proportion of their overall output when compared with the repeated regular issues with Fox and affiliates. Koncorde (talk
) 17:54, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Consensus can change, Newslinger. WaPo has gone so far left I barely recognize it. I didn't renew my subscription when it came due, and it appears that maybe I wasn't the only one because WaPo came back with an offer too cheap to refuse. I subscribed but only because WP needs the diversity. I've already made my position known about the current rating system and provided plenty of valid criticism - they reflect a strong political bias. Leftist opinion sources, regardless of how far left, are more readily accepted as reliable whereas right leaning opinion sources are constantly challenged and downgraded for all the wrong reasons, most of which are based on aspersions and opinion, not actual facts, and certainly nothing that doesn't apply equally to sources on other sides of the political spectrum. We're shooting ourselves in the foot, and to avoid totally crippling ourselves, it's probably going to require an ArbCom case to get these issues resolved. For one thing, the current rating system has not been vetted by the wider community and is nothing more than an essay but is treated like policy. I'd like to see a more reliable rating system overall - one that doesn't favor one ideology over another, and that will require a pragmatic review of the current ratings from a NPOV. As things are now, I see a clear and present danger to WP's neutrality because this process is homogenizing the encyclopedia to the point of reflecting a single POV. An article that was published back in December 2016 by Bloomberg speaks volumes, keeping in mind things weren't nearly as bad as they are now: ”The encyclopedia’s reliance on outside sources, primarily newspapers, means it will be only as diverse as the rest of the media—which is to say, not very.” Atsme 💬 📧 18:55, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm not aware of any reliable source that describes
consensus is a Wikipedia policy, and the consensus found in past discussions on the reliable sources noticeboard still applies regardless of whether the editor chooses to refer to this list. — Newslinger talk
07:35, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
Is the discussion here or on RSN? I thought that is what we were doing here - discussing them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atsme (talkcontribs) 23:43, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
Since this discussion does not focus on the analysis of previous noticeboard discussions, I've moved it from
WT:RSP to this noticeboard. If you have any new information to share, please go ahead. — Newslinger talk
03:09, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Newslinger, well, up to a point. The Overton Window in US politics has shifted to the point that policies promoted by centre-right parties in Europe are denigrated as socialism in America.
WaPo's image among the right is an unfortunate corollary of Colbert's Law:
Reality has a well known liberal bias
.
I'm amused, though, by the idea that we should deprecate the Washington Post, a widely trusted source, based on a story in the Washington Times, which is... not that. Guy (help! - typo?) 10:41, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
You are most definitely correct that, indeed, consensus can change. However the previous consensus, at the time of this discussion, was under a month old. Policy states, and I quote (see
WP:CCC), "On the other hand, proposing to change a recently established consensus can be disruptive." --TheSandDoctor Talk
21:33, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Sources like WaPo publish massive volumes of information, and statistically any such source will make occasional errors, and sometimes big ones. The hallmark of a good source is whether they publish corrections, which WaPo has. This is how good journalism has always worked. soibangla (talk) 19:27, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to regard WaPo as other than one of the most reliable news outlets. Their willingness to correct a story on the basis of new information received months later enhances their reputation for integrity and reliability. How many news outlets which also published the original story later published corrections? Comparing WaPo to Fox is ridiculous. Zerotalk 01:43, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, and this is an important point. Compare to Fox, where side shows are voluntarily mixed in to clearly push propaganda including science denialism that will not be retracted or corrected (false equivalence to compare them and this explains why Fox has a different assessment). —PaleoNeonate – 08:56, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Surely we're not forgetting WaPo's shoddy reporting of Nicholas Sandman, and how they settled out of court. CNN was right there on the shoddy reporting list, too. It is inexcusable - he was a kid. That did it for me. Better sources are available. Has this discussion ended or was it moved? Atsme 💬 📧 23:36, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
    Atsme, did you read the source you cited? The family contended in a suit filed last year that The Post defamed Sandmann in seven articles and via tweets promoting the articles. The Post has maintained that its reporting was accurate and fair. Out of court settlements are a way of avoiding expensive litigation, no fault was admitted. All news organisations make errors, what distinguishes a reliable source form an unreliable one is the willingness to retract a false story. WaPo does that. Fox's feedback loops punish it for ideological heresy, not factual inaccuracy, and that is why over the last five or six years Fox has become significantly more biased, significantly less accurate, and has eroded the distinctions between its factual reporting and opinion content. You already know this.
After the election they fired Chris Stirewalt, who accurately called election results, and promoted Maria Bartiromo and Tucker Calrson, who promote the Big Lie. Fox is currently ground zero for GOP disinformation. They devoted more time over several weeks to denigrating the Seuss estate's decision to remove some books with racist imagery than they did defending actual doctors who were being sidelined by the Trump regime over their annoying tendency to tell the truth about the pandemic. They did this because the GOP's leading message, from the
Odal rune
stage at CPAC to its floor speaches in Congress, is "cancel culture" and white grievance. I've got the emails form the GOP asking for feedback onmt heir platform. Not one actual policy, just paraphrases of "own the libs", and Fox is at the heart of this through its news broadcasting as well as the Tucker Carlson White Power Hour, where he echoes "great replacement" talking points as seen in mass shooter "manifestos".
Their news viewers will be blissfully unaware that Matt Gaetz is going through some things. They will also be unaware of the bombshell dropped yesterday about Kilimnik's role in passing polling data from Manafort to the GRU in 2016, or his involvement in Russian disinformation efforts around Ukraine. A search of Fox News' website this morning gives no mentions of Kilimnik at all during the entire period from the start of the election campaign in 2020, apart from one dismissive reference by Gutfeld on a talk show.
Hewre's a litmus test. See if you can find stories on Fox News that discuss how Georgia's new voter suppression laws will differentially impact Black Americans, and what the inference is of allowing the state legislature to intervene in actual vote tallying. You'll find lots of Republican talking heads spouting outrage at the mere suggestion that this is racist, and plenty of talk about "concerns" over election fraud in what Trump's own appointee called the most secure election in American history. But if you can find any story that says the Georgia laws are bad and the proposed For The People Act anything other than pure evil, you'll be doign better than me. And yes, that;'s within the news sections of their website. Their opinion shows are 100% on board with the GOP message that any vote other than for a Republican is presumptively fraudulent, because the most historically unpopular president in US history was defeated in an election where people got to vote despite a raging pandemic. Guy (help! - typo?) 10:17, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Not in disagreement on JzG's point here related to the original question, but I would say the situation around Sandmann and the media is a reason we need to be more careful on "breaking" news coverage of disputes, particularly around contentious situations, beyond laying down the established facts, per NOT#NEWS and RECENTISM, a trait that applies to all RSes equally. We can cover facts but should avoid opinions and analysis until the situation has calmed down enough (which may take weeks or month) to be able to a clearer view of the situation. But fully agree that this specific case does not affect these sources reliability: WaPost issued its correction about a month and a half later. --Masem (t) 16:38, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Guy, I disagree with your POV and perspective of what actually took place but I'm sure that's no surprise. In fact, your reasoning for WaPo settling could be applied to all civil cases that are settled out of court. In this particular case, there is clear evidence of what took place. I didn't read past the Stirewalt comment and what appears to be a rant over Fox News. This discussion is focused on the reliability of WaPo. Moving on, I will provide further indisputable evidence that will prove a level of unreliability that surpasses Fox News.

    WaPo's unreliability is not simply because of their political bias, which can be a bit extreme at times. What concerns me more is their inconsistency and failure to conduct proper and ethical journalistic investigation prior to publishing controversial material in their articles. They also spin articles to appease their left-leaning demographics, not unlike what Fox News does to appease their right-leaning demographics, but that's expected. They also appear to be reluctant to admit their mistakes - and it may very well be purposeful. There is indisputable evidence of prejudice or a strong dislike, possibly even hatred, for Trump by Jeff Bezos, which would most likely trickle down to political news staff; therefore, whenever Trump is involved, WaPo as a source is unquestionably unreliable. Another issue is that WaPo appears too willing to accept unverified material from anonymous sources, and will publish it without further investigation, as the following demonstrates.

    Let's not pretend that capitalists aren't in control of mainstream media or that they don't influence what gets published; after all, they have a lot at stake. And WaPo is conveniently located in D.C., quite convenient for Bezos. I'm not aware of any news source that is above spinning a story, publishing a theory (aka speculation) which may or may not involve a conspiracy, sensationalizing a headline (clickbait), creating montage artwork from different photographs to fit an online page or story, or publishing a potential lie disguised as an unproven/unsubstantiated statement - journalists are wordsmiths, and yes, it's all about semantics. There are quality journalists out there but I'm not seeing any sign of such high quality at WaPo (compared to say, academic, science, & medical journals), especially when it involves politics.

    WaPo obviously wasn't too concerned that what they published may not have been true. See the following: WaPo correction - it took 2 months for them to correct the misinformation they published, but only after they were under pressure to do so; i.e., the actual recording had been released. They did not conduct due diligence. Worse yet, the following news sources in the echo chamber repeated that same misinformation citing WaPo:

  1. CNN,
  2. MSNBC,
  3. ABC,
  4. NBC,
  5. PBS, etc.
It's not just WaPo - even The NYTimes and WSJ have smudge on their hands, although if my memory serves, only WaPo returned a Pulitzer and the NYTimes had to bear the shame of 4 years of Jayson_Blair, and most recently this fallout. WaPo reported Many news organizations have suffered major embarrassments over the last two decades. The Post returned a Pulitzer Prize in 1981 over reporter Janet Cooke's invention of an 8-year-old heroin addict. The Wall Street Journal's R. Foster Winans was convicted of selling advance information from his column. NBC staged a fiery truck crash on "Dateline." The New Republic published 27 fabricated articles by Stephen Glass, and the Boston Globe several bogus columns by Patricia Smith. And then added But in scope, breadth, pathos and sheer human inventiveness for covering his fictional tracks, Jayson Blair may have no equal, especially considering that his transgressions occurred at one of the nation's most prestigious and carefully edited newspapers.

Another example, just last year the NYTimes broke a story provided to them by an anonymous source that Russians put bounties on US troops, (anonymous source is the 1st red flag). It went viral in mainstream media. A recent update providing a more accurate account of the story was published by the Daily Beast, April 15, 2021 - nearly a year after the story broke. There was rampant misinformation by multiple news sources. This is one of many reasons we should adhere more closely to RECENTISM and BREAKINGNEWS. There's always Wikinews for the impatient. Beware WP:POV creep based on plausible deniability and material that is spread by the echo chamber, which is not unlike a news wire; therefore, a single source, not to be confused with multiple independent RS in compliance with WP:V.

Following is what's left in the wake of WaPo's false reporting:

  1. Jan. 9, 2021 original false information (no correction);
  2. March 11, 2021 the corrected version - two months apart.
  3. CNN updated March 15th.
You can hunt down the other corrections, if there are any. I also disagree to some aspects of the belief that correcting mistakes demonstrates a source's credibility. While I agree that correcting honest mistakes is an ethical practice, I take issue when media publishes questionable material and assumes the position that it's easier to ask for forgiveness than waste time gathering facts when a deadline is pressing, or my candidate needs to win. We expect career journalists to defend a forgive me, but we all make mistakes position, which explains this Poynter article, but notice how often WaPo is mentioned in that article, and also notice the Fox News retraction so to say one publisher's retraction is a sign of credibility while another's is not, well...got resource bias? Here are a few more WaPo "oops". All totaled, I'd say it deserves more than a meh, or other form of dismissal.
  1. Politico 2015
  2. Correction 2019
  3. Intercept #8: On November 24, 2016, the Washington Post published one of the most inflammatory, sensationalistic stories to date about Russian infiltration into U.S. politics using social media, accusing “more than 200 websites” of being “routine peddlers of Russian propaganda during the election season, with combined audiences of at least 15 million Americans.” It added: “stories planted or promoted by the disinformation campaign [on Facebook] were viewed more than 213 million times.”
  4. Intercept #9: On December 30, 2016, the Washington Post reported that “Russian hackers penetrated the U.S. electricity grid through a utility in Vermont,” causing predictable outrage and panic, along with threats from U.S. political leaders.
Happy editing! Atsme 💬 📧 22:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
To deal with one particular case you bring up: the difference being while Trump did not say the specific words attributed to him... he still said some words. It wasn't whole cloth. The call took place. There was pressure. Things were inferred. To then suggest they did not conduct "due diligence" is misleading. Raffensberger said he knew of the call but not the content. Trump and the White House said nothing. The call was reportedly not recorded and it took an FOI to find. Then when it was found the contents turn out to be not too dissimilar as summaries go. A bit Chinese whispers maybe, but readily cleared up by anyone if they spoke to the WaPo - and they didn't. Koncorde (talk) 23:28, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
I personally think the false quote is a really big deal. Think about a legal case. If you are before a judge and you say, I have a recording where Mr X says [thing]. Then on cross you admit you don't have the recording and you only have a summary of what Mr X was reported to have said. You just lied to the court. You said you had something that you didn't. We can argue that the bigger picture wasn't changed but it means you were willing to lie to tell the story you wanted to sell. Once you are willing to start to lie to your readers how can we know the lies are material or not (BTW, I used the word "you" as a generalized person, please don't take it to mean you personally). This is like a relationship who's trust is broke when someone gets caught lying about something that may not be that big a deal but the lie is. If the WP offered a summary of what their source claimed Trump said, that would have been fine. Offering a direct, yet false quote? I would have hoped someone would have been fired for that. Springee (talk) 03:09, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
They never claimed to have the quote on tape. This was not a legal case. They were not before a judge. They were given the information by someone directly informed by the person involved in the conversation with Trump. If she misled the second party, or the second party inferred their own meaning to the WaPo and when the WaPo reached out they refused to speak to them... fuck'em, publish anyway. It is clearly in the public interest. That WaPo gives the context The Washington Post reported on the substance of Trump’s Dec. 23 call in January, describing him saying that Watson should “find the fraud” and that she would be a “national hero,” based on an account from Jordan Fuchs, the deputy secretary of state, whom Watson briefed on his comments. If someone is given opportunity to refute and they don't take it... fuck'em, publish anyway. It is clearly in the public interest. Repeat, wash, repeat. Would it have been better to not attribute inaccurate quotes, but imply the content? It wouldn't make much difference, and it certainly isn't lying (unless the lying was done by Fuchs purposely changed the words to be more inflammatory). Newspapers literally publish thousands of articles per year relying on inside sources. Dozens upon dozens about things people have said or done. This is de rigueur. Koncorde (talk) 19:19, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Meh. What distinguishes a reliable source from an unreliable one would be timely corrections on stories with factually inaccurate content. News organisations will make mistakes. Timely is relative and arguable. And also what matters is how much effort had to be put in to have a correction published. An organisation that needs to be dragged through independent regulators / experience a media circus before publishing a retraction may have its reliability more questioned, verses one that publishes a very visible correction once it becomes aware of and verifies an inaccuracy. That's not to say there's no valid assertion being raised here, but these points do have to be remembered. My overall impression is that WAPO maintains high standards and is reliable. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
    Looking closer: the correction in that WAPO article is very visible and right at the top of the article, with no qualifications. And it's also relatively minor for the story being made. Compare that to this or this, where you have a news organisation pushing not to correct factual inaccuracies and repeatedly engaging in, IMO, deceptive journalism, with full knowledge of what they're doing. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:13, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "The rare error which is promptly corrected" is very different from "frequent errors that are rarely corrected". FN, DM and the like have a fundamentally different editorial process from real news sources, resulting in a vastly different standard of "truth". François Robere (talk) 11:45, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I think the WP has showed strong partisan bias while Trump was in office and between the falsely attributed Trump quote, the Sandman incident and some others which I recall but don't have at have. I suspect Fox gets a lot more scrutiny simply because Fox wasn't walking in step with the rest. It's harder to say when the WP gets it wrong since so many other sources seem to be in agreement with them (look at how many sources took their Trump quotes to be golden). However, I'm less certain there is a practical reason to do this. Fox was often a contrarian view point thus if we can have Fox declared not reliable then we don't have to worry about including that pesky other POV. When it comes to things said by the WP, well we are still likely to find other news sites that will say basically the same thing. Even if we were to say the WP is deprecated (note: I'm saying this to set up a logical argument only), how often would that force a true change to an article? How often would the same facts/statements be solely found in the WP? I don't think the evidence presented to downgrade Fox was sufficient. I think that was as much a personal opinion vote as anything. I think the evidence here is also "not good" but not enough to make me down grade the overall "reliable" ranking. Really, if we wanted to do something better for overall quality and neutrality of our articles we should probably think about standards for how things should be summarized or when we should/should not use "soundbite" quotes from articles or when we should distinguish between a reporter stating facts vs a reporter adding their own analysis or worse, their own out right opinions. Springee (talk) 02:50, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
    I agree with the popularity vote comment about some RSN discussions in general (not saying it happened to Fox, but it happens on here). What might be good is establishing a guideline on what makes a source unreliable and/or deprecated. That way, editors will have a base to evidence from, and closers can chuck out arguments that aren't in step with the guideline. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:21, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Why is this even being discussed like it is a serious observation? What a waste of time. The two sources (if Fox can actually be called "news") are poles apart in terms of serious journalism. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:03, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Bad discussion. This reads more like reasons to upgrade Fox News to the same rating as Washington Post more than anything else. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 15:26, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Once again corrections and retractions are indicators of a reliable source not an unreliable one. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:50, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
    • While I generally agree, attributing a controversial direct quote to a president and correcting only when an actual recording of the discussion, something the WP didn't have when claiming the exact quote, turns up is more than just "new information". That is lying to your spouse then saying, "well the truth is" once the lie is obvious. That's the sort of screwup that says your editorial standards should be questioned. We have deprecated other sources for fabricating quotes. The WP did exactly that here. Integrity is they redact when they internally know something was wrong. When an external source shows that you are wrong its rather late to say, "we issued a correction". Springee (talk) 16:14, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
I disagree, that is the appropriate time to issue a correction. I think your argument is also slipping into hyperbole, unless theres more to this story than I’ve seen reported. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:39, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
Of course they should issue a correction. The problem is that it happened at all. It's one thing to get something wrong when you shouldn't have known better. It's quite another to get it wrong when you should know better as in this case. If a medical expert tells you that 50% of cases they see are X then it's understandable to assume that expert is correct. If a source who might be biased tells you "the President said X" perhaps you should not treat it like a reliably sourced quote. Springee (talk) 17:04, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Useless false equivalency trying to redeem the unredeemable propaganda outlet that is Fox News. oknazevad (talk) 16:29, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not so much concerned about the particular quote from Trump's phone call to the Georgia election official. The Washington Post got the exact quote wrong, but it appears that it got the gist of the conversation correct. There's another story that I find far more troubling: the alleged Russian bounty program in Afghanistan. Many news agencies reported uncritically on US intelligence claims that Russia had paid the Taliban bounties to attack US troops. If you read the Washington Post's articles carefully, they almost always attribute the claims about the supposed bounty program to US intelligence or anonymous senior officials, but there are also ambiguous passages in the Washington Post's reporting that could give the impression that the newspaper is endorsing the veracity of the claims. Here are a few examples:

  • "Russian operation targeted coalition troops in Afghanistan, intelligence finds":

    A Russian military spy unit offered bounties to Taliban-linked militants to attack coalition forces in Afghanistan, including U.S. and British troops, in a striking escalation of the Kremlin’s hostility toward the United States, American intelligence has found. The Russian operation, first reported by the New York Times, has generated an intense debate within the Trump administration about how best to respond to a troubling new tactic by a nation that most U.S. officials regard as a potential foe but that President Trump has frequently embraced as a friend, said the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive intelligence matter.

  • "Timeline: What we know about the Russia bounties intelligence and Trump":

    The New York Times first reported — with The Washington Post and others confirming — that U.S. intelligence has assessed that a Russian military spy unit offered bounties to Taliban-linked fighters in Afghanistan to kill coalition troops, including American ones. The Post further reported that the bounties have indeed been linked to U.S. troop deaths.

  • "Russian bounties to Taliban-linked militants resulted in deaths of U.S. troops, according to intelligence assessments":

    Russian bounties offered to Taliban-linked militants to kill coalition forces in Afghanistan are believed to have resulted in the deaths of several U.S. service members, according to intelligence gleaned from U.S. military interrogations of captured militants in recent months.

  • I'll add in an example from the New York Times, just to show that the problem extends beyond the Washington Post. "Spies and Commandos Warned Months Ago of Russian Bounties on U.S. Troops":

    United States intelligence officers and Special Operations forces in Afghanistan alerted their superiors as early as January to a suspected Russian plot to pay bounties to the Taliban to kill American troops in Afghanistan, according to officials briefed on the matter. They believed at least one U.S. troop death was the result of the bounties, two of the officials said. The crucial information that led the spies and commandos to focus on the bounties included the recovery of a large amount of American cash from a raid on a Taliban outpost that prompted suspicions. [...] The details added to the picture of the classified intelligence assessment [...]

Now, I'm sure that some editors will jump in and say that the Washington Post does not unambiguously state that the bounty program actually exists. But in my experience, editors often use articles exactly like those above, in which newspapers report uncritically on claims by US intelligence, in order to argue that those intelligence claims are true, and should be put in Wikivoice. The argument goes something like this: the Washington Post treats these reports as credible, and does not express any doubt. An editor arguing for treating the reports as true might also point to the Washington Post's statement, The Post further reported that the bounties have indeed been linked to U.S. troop deaths. That could be spun as a definitive statement by any editor who wanted to claim, in Wikivoice, that there was indeed a Russian bounty program.

As many editors are probably now aware, it recently emerged that US intelligence only has "low to moderate" confidence in the story about Russian bounties. In intelligence jargon, that means the story is very likely to be complete nonsense. Yet the Washington Post wrote several news articles treating this story as if it were credible, and a casual reader of the newspaper would come away with a strong impression that the program existed. The Washington Post isn't alone here - much of the American media jumped in and published the same sorts of uncritical articles.

What implications does this have for

WP:RS
policy? I'd say that we have to emphasize two things:

  1. Be extremely careful about attributing claims like this. If a news article says, "US intelligence has assessed that ...", "... according to intelligence", or "... are believed to have resulted in ...", then editors must attribute the claims. They cannot argue that the Washington Post's credulity means we can put a claim in Wikivoice. We can be fairly certain that the Washington Post is not making up the existence of the intelligence reports, or that it is not making up the fact that "senior officials" have said X, but whether those intelligence reports or those senior officials are correct is an entirely different matter.
  2. Recognize that even reliable sources have biases, and seek out sources with different perspectives. In particular, strive to present a global perspective. American media is likely to be overly credulous about the claims of US intelligence agencies or the US government. We've seen this over and over again, with the alleged Russian bounty program, with Iraqi WMD, etc. Who ended up being correct about the Russian bounty program? Some international newspapers (such as the Moscow Times) and some smaller outlets (including the deprecated Grayzone, which called the reports "dubious").

I don't know exactly how we should make the two above points clearer in the pages describing RS policy, but I think they're important to emphasize. -Thucydides411 (talk) 17:08, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Hindsight is 20/20. It could have easily been the case that these reports got confirmed beyond any reasonable doubt (as is the case with most NYT/WaPo story), in which case Wikipedia's voice stating According to The Washington Post would be casting an undue doubt on the veracity of the story. A story that is reported in matter-of-fact language by multiple highly reliable sources should not be
WP:UNDUE weight to the niche, heterodox sources that dispute it. JBchrch (talk
) 19:07, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
I think you've missed the point I'm making. The "Russian bounty program" is a story in which there never was actually any confirmation beyond a reasonable doubt. There were numerous unsubstantiated claims, based on statements from US intelligence, that were related uncritically by the Washington Post, the New York Times and many other American news outlets. Most of the time, news outlets attributed these claims to US intelligence (meaning that
WP:INTEXT
should technically apply), though sometimes attribution was ambiguous or missing. There were outlets that were appropriately skeptical, given the lack of publicly available evidence to back up the claims (above, I noted the Moscow Times and the deprecated Grayzone), but WaPo and NYT were not. My basic point is that in such situations,
  1. We have to be extremely careful about attribution. If news agencies are relating claims by intelligence agencies, for example, treat them as claims. Don't put them in Wikivoice.
  2. American media is overly credulous about claims of US intelligence agencies and the US government. We have to be aware of this bias, and make sure that we are presenting a global view.
The alternative, which I often hear, is that if sources like the Washington Post or New York Times uncritically report on claims by US intelligence, then we should then drop in-text attribution and treat those claims as fact. There are enough examples of major stories in which this would have been a terrible idea (such as the "Russian bounty program"), that I think we need to emphasize in-text attribution and the fact that even sources like WaPo and NYT have biases and blindspots. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:03, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
I think I got your point, my point being that if highly reliable sources report some news stories in matter-of-fact language (or "uncritically" as you say it), who are we to cast a doubt on their reporting? That would be a form of
WP:UNDUE weight). When you say American media is overly credulous about claims of US intelligence agencies and the US government, you are making a very broad generalisation which I would expect to be backed by a large amount of very serious sources, as it would have a substantial effect on Wiki-policy. In any case, — all things being equal and provided that we are speaking of stories reported in matter-of-fact language by several high-quality sources — we can change articles when the reporting changes, so I don't really see the point of putting so much burden on the shoulder of editors. JBchrch (talk
) 20:43, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
There are two problems:
  1. What to do when what you're calling "highly reliable sources" report on unsubstantiated claims in ambiguous language? In this case, the Washington Post did, for the most part, attribute claims of the existence of a Russian bounty program to "US intelligence officials", "anonymous officials", "reports", etc. But in some cases, the Washington Post appeared to drop attribution, though the wording was sometimes ambiguous. And some outlets, like Vox, went way over the line and appeared to state definitively that the program existed.
  2. Can we continue to maintain that sources that repeatedly report overly credulously on unsubstantiated claims by US intelligence are always, in every case, highly reliable?
I would expect to be backed by a large amount of very serious sources: In the run-up to the Iraq War, the Washington Post, the New York Times and many other American media outlets reported largely uncritically on US government assertions that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. It has now just come out that a major story that these very same outlets reported on uncritically - the Russian bounty program - is also likely bogus. There is a certain point at which we have to recognize that there is a systemic problem here, and that we have to be particularly careful when these outlets relate unsubstantiated claims by US intelligence. I think the way to address the problem is to be scrupulous about attribution (if there's any ambiguity, attribute the claim) and to use a broader array of global media (particularly for stories with an international element). -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:46, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Looking now at how different American media organizations covered the "Russian bounty program" that likely didn't exist, I have to say that it's bad. If one looks at news articles from June and July 2020, when the story broke, there is a lot of credulous coverage. As an example, take this Vox article. Some quotes from the article:

The Associated Press reported on Monday night that in March 2019, then-National Security Adviser John Bolton personally briefed Trump on the Russian scheme.

Experts on Russia and Afghanistan say the underlying claim — that Russia paid bounties to Afghan militants to kill US troops — is quite plausible.

Initially, it wasn’t particularly clear how this Russian program worked or how solid the US intelligence about it was. But in the past day, the strength of the intelligence in question become disturbingly clear.

Both the Russian government and the Taliban have denied the allegations, and the militants pointed out in a statement to the Times that they don’t need any incentives from the Russians to want to kill Americans.

At this point, I know there will be people who will cite
Mandy Rice-Davies Applies
, to argue that Russian denials should not be presented on Wikipedia. After all, they would deny it, wouldn't they? Maybe, but the Russian denials now appear to have been correct. More from the Vox article:

But experts find the claim fairly credible, noting that such schemes are broadly consistent with how Russia operates these days.

This isn’t just a more violent extension of the 2016 election hacking campaign, in short. It’s a reflection of the way in which, under Putin, Russian foreign policy has become a project of attaining a particular vision of national greatness — a tool for avenging historical humiliations and restoring the Kremlin to its rightful place as one of the world’s great powers. To do that, America must be punished.

This is really bad. Vox is listed as "generally reliable" at
WP:RSP. It's easy to find these sorts of terribly credulous articles in other "generally reliable" sources from the time. I don't think this lapse in multiple reliable sources should be brushed off, and it should have consequences for how we use and view reliable sources. -Thucydides411 (talk
) 20:32, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
Your claims are without merit, and this seems to be just you taking jabs at a source you do not like. Being wrong about a story does not make a reliable source less reliable; it is what the reliable source actually does if a story turns out to be wrong (or in this particular instance, not yet corroborated). Unreliable sources double-down and scream "FAKE NEWS!", while the good sources report that the story is now unverified, and then self-reflect on their editorial practices. Zaathras (talk) 20:44, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
You are correct that being wrong about a particular story does not necessarily make a source unreliable. However, presenting unsubstantiated claims as if they were facts is journalistic malpractice, and does make a source less reliable. I'm not "taking jabs" at a source because I "do not like" it. I don't have any particular dislike for Vox. I'm pointing out that they acted irresponsibly here - that they failed to uphold the basic journalistic practice of not presenting unconfirmed claims as true. I don't think anyone can look at the Vox article I linked above and claim that that was good journalism, and I don't think we should just say, "Well, it could happen to any newspaper." No, it wouldn't happen to a newspaper that was careful about separating facts from unsubstantiated claims. Vox failed to do so here. -Thucydides411 (talk) 08:48, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
A problem with that would be resulting in the type of uncertainty discourse that divisive propagandists are trying to seed: it's all just opposing opinions and narratives without sound basis, in such confusion, believe whatever you want, etc. Which can be mitigated with policies like
WP:NOTNEWS to determine what's worth covering. This doesn't mean that everything is perfect and that even the best sources don't err, of course. Also, encyclopedia summary style is different to journalism reporting style... —PaleoNeonate
– 08:55, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
I don't think expressing uncertainty in situations in which there actually is uncertainty is something that only "divisive propagandists" should want. I raise the "Russian bounty program" because it shows that perceptions around here about how to use sources are somewhat out-of-touch with reality. The Washington Post objectively did a bad job of reporting this story, and was overly credulous about claims that were never actually substantiated. The Washington Post was just careful enough in attributing claims that one could plausibly argue that they never claimed that a Russian bounty program existed. But they were also just ambiguous enough that any Wikipedia editor who wanted to could have written, in Wikivoice, that the Russian bounty program existed. I think one way to address this problem is to be much more careful about attribution (especially with these types of stories that rely heavily on unsubstantiated claims by anonymous officials). We may actually have to be more careful about attribution than some individual articles. It's often the case that many news sources do properly hedge and attribute unsubstantiated claims, but that a few articles (such as the Vox article I quoted from above) do not. In such circumstances, we should not use the most assertive (or reckless) news source as an excuse to ignore the hedging in other news sources. I think that that would already go a long way towards remedying the problem. The other way to address these sorts of problems is to make more of an effort to use global sources, especially for stories with an international (i.e., non-US) component. -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:56, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
This. National press is notoriously reflective of national moods and sentiment. Ideally when reporting on controversial subjects there should be both very specific attribution to the source, and it should always be corroborated where possible with additional sources that are one step removed where possible.
However I disagree about the coverage of the Bounty program. Intelligence stated low to moderate confidence, but the significance of the story was latterly the denial by Trump of being briefed (despite evidence to the contrary) and that he failed to raise the matter or make any further inroads towards clearing it up. The habit by any press will be to lend more credence to the intelligence where there is reticence to respond to it, or a wall of silence. In short: sometimes the press release played like a fiddle, but that doesn't mean they should stop playing the tune. Koncorde (talk) 10:06, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Intelligence stated low to moderate confidence: But readers of the Washington Post could easily have gotten the impression that existence of the bounty program was essentially proven. WaPo did tend to attribute the claims about the supposed bounty program, but it wasn't always careful to do so. Vox was even less careful, declaring the evidence to be strong: But in the past day, the strength of the intelligence in question become disturbingly clear. The impression given by these outlets was that the program existed, and knowing how Wikipedia works, that could easily turn into unjustified statements in Wikivoice. Any editor who wanted to make the claim, in Wikivoice, that the bounty program definitely existed could have found enough individual passages from the Washington Post's reporting to justify the claim.
the significance of the story was latterly the denial by Trump of being briefed (despite evidence to the contrary) and that he failed to raise the matter or make any further inroads towards clearing it up: Yes, that was one reason why the story received so much attention. I'm loathe to bring this up, because it will give some people the impression that I'm somehow trying to defend Trump, but I do think that a desire to nail Trump also clouded reporting on the Russian bounty program. We all know that the Washington Post and Vox are not favorably disposed towards Trump, and if the Russian bounty program were real and Trump didn't respond to it, that would make Trump look very bad. So there were partisan reasons to believe in the story, even if the usual credulity towards intelligence agencies also played a large role here. -Thucydides411 (talk) 12:03, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
To iterate what I've said above, WaPost has shown the necessary journalistic integrity to fix mistakes they make, and there is no need to downgrade it due to these rush-to-press stories. What this should imply on WP is reitation of
WP:RECENTISM, that if a story breaks that seems incredulous and there's only one or few sources reporting on it (as the case of the Trump GA call or the cases the Intercept pointed out) -- where WaPost later corrected themselves - we should not be rushing to include these claims in WP until we ourselves have assurance the claims are backed up. If that means we may not cover something for a day or three, that's appropriate in the context of WP:NOT (Instead, those that really want to provide crowd-sourced news should feel free to use Wikinews to write up coverage which potentially can be integrated back to en.wiki). This is different from when there's breaking factual reporting with reasonable corrobation - eg the events of Jan 6's Capitol riots, for example, which we can cover immediately as long as we stay close to fact and not speculation. If we followed that principle when WaPost broke these stories, we likely would not be having to revise and rework after the corrections came out. But this also is why the same applies to Fox or other biased sources; it gives us some breathing time to see where the story is falling and how it is being backed up before we ourselves commit. --Masem (t
) 20:54, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
I disagree, Masem - and I'm a paid subscriber to WaPo. They are not the old WaPo - they're the new internet WaPo, and you just don't make that many major mistakes that close together, one of which took 2 months to issue a correction - that's shoddy journalism, not an innocent mistake. They are purposely publishing unverified material for clickbait and they won't hesitate to blame it on an anonymous source - and who can prove otherwise? Read the other links I've added because WaPo leads the pack in corrections - at least, those are the ones we know about. I have not taken the time to see if they have any stories they might have buried but I wouldn't put it past them. Don't forget, they had to return a Pulitzer which tells us their editorial oversight is questionable at best. Too many fumbles for far too long. Atsme 💬 📧 03:36, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
They couldn't issue a correction any sooner when nobody would correct the record until the phone call was released. That's like saying the coverage of the Ukraine Call shouldn't have never been discussed prior to the release of the call... which it still hasn't been. That is neither reasonable nor the norm for any news reporting. Koncorde (talk) 10:06, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
They knew they didn't have the evidence to support claims of direct quotes yet they did anyway. That is a failure on their editorial standards. If they couldn't confirm the direct quotes they should have stuck with summaries. Of course they waited until it was clear the quotes were false as they had no reason to retract before that and after the fact they basically had no choice. Again, the proper way to handle this would have been to emphasize a summary of what the source said not promote a word for word, damning quote with no hard evidence. It suggests they were more interested in a shocking quote driving the story vs reporting only what they could reasonably confirm. Springee (talk) 12:14, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
The "Russian bounties" story was not a rush-to-press situation. The story broke in June 2020, and it has taken until April 2021 for it to emerge that the story was most likely bogus. In the meantime, many American news outlets reported the claims of intelligence officials uncritically. The Washington Post most often attributed the claims, but it sometimes dropped attribution and appeared to claim, in its own authoritative voice, that the bounties really existed.
The problem here is that the claims of "Russian bounties" were never actually backed up by solid evidence. They never moved beyond claims by anonymous US intelligence officials. Yet they were repeated ad nauseam by the Washington Post, and a reader of the Post could easily have gotten the impression that the existence of the Russian bounty program had been confirmed.
I don't think it's enough to say that every newspaper makes some occasional mistakes. A basic principle of good journalism is to separate unsubstantiated claims from established facts. The reporting by the Washington Post and other major American news outlets on the probably-nonexistent Russian bounty program blurred this line, and sometimes (as with the Vox article I linked above) obliterated it. That's just bad journalism.
I think we have to draw two conclusions here:
  1. We have to be very careful about giving in-text attribution when we're relating unsubstantiated claims. It's not enough to say, "The Washington Post hasn't expressed skepticism, so we can treat it as true."
  2. We have to try harder to give a global perspective, and to not rely solely on American media, which has its own systematic biases (being overly credulous about claims by US intelligence, for example). In the case of Russian bounties, that could mean looking at Russian media, to see what it is saying about the same story.
-Thucydides411 (talk) 09:28, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Statements like is also likely bogus and the story was most likely bogus are as much a rush to judgement as the rush you lambast the Washington Post for doing. At present, the bounty story is simply uncorroborated, that is NOT a synonym for bogus. Second, looking at Russian media, to see what it is saying about the same story ? There's virtually no independent media in the current state of Russia, and they consistently rank near the bottom of global press freedoms rankings. This project never should not and hopefully never will use a scrap of sourcing from Russian media unless it is to attribute the simplest of facts. ValarianB (talk) 11:58, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
At present, the bounty story is simply uncorroborated: Which means that news agencies that gave the impression that it was strongly corroborated did not do their job. If you look at the Vox (RSP: generally reliable) piece I quoted from above, it essentially treats existence of the bounty program as a fact. The Washington Post was not as bad as Vox on this (although the Washington Post's Outlook section was as bad as Vox here: [42]), but it did repeat the intelligence claims credulously, and made somewhat ambiguous statements that could be interpreted as definitive claims that the bounty program exists. And it's difficult to defend the New York Times' initial article, which broke the story, which claims: American intelligence officials have concluded that a Russian military intelligence unit secretly offered bounties to Taliban-linked militants for killing coalition forces in Afghanistan [...] according to officials briefed on the matter. As we now know, the intelligence agencies actually considered the claims about the existence of a bounty program to be only weakly supported.
This project never should not and hopefully never will use a scrap of sourcing from Russian media unless it is to attribute the simplest of facts. This is a terrible attitude to take, and it will lead us to have very skewed coverage of issues related to Russia. Vedomosti and Kommersant quoted skeptical opinions on the US intelligence claims: [43]. The Moscow Times also published a skeptical opinion about the story. Wikipedia is a global encyclopedia, and we can't just rule out coverage from wide swaths of the globe. In this case, Russian media turned out to be appropriately skeptical, and American media turned out to be overly credulous. -Thucydides411 (talk) 12:45, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Both of Thucydides' points are spot on, but we also should be careful on giving such stories undue coverage as long as they remain uncorroborated as well. I have no idea what actually happened, editing wise, on WP with that WaPost story, but I would think that that WaPost story could merit an attributed sentence or two in some larger article ("According to the WaPost...") but it would not be appropriate to just to make a wholly new article based on that WaPost article and likely dozens of other sources that ride it. That's still a RECENTISM issue, that until we have a better grasp of the validity of a single-source RS claim that seems incredulous, we should tiptoe carefully; we are absolutely not required to include such breaking information and it is better to wait to make sure we include the right information than highly speculative info from sources. But this applies to all RSes, even NYTimes and BBC, and doesn't change how we use the WaPost. --Masem (t) 12:53, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Masem, from your perspective what is the primary difference between Fox pundit opinions errors and WaPo news journalist errors? Isn't the latter a great deal more to be concerned about since it's news not opinion? Fox News is reliable for news but their pundits are not - and I don't have an issue with that as long as all sources with pundits are treated with the same consideration, but that's not what I'm seeing. The problem I see is that WaPo journalists are acting more like political pundits and publishing misinformation but they can issue a correction 2 months later and we say atta boy, you're forgiven. Who cares if you had to return a Pulitzer? In that same breath we say to Fox you suck because you never won a Pulitzer, and you cater to right-wing audiences and that's unforgivable on WP, and we don't care how many times you retract/correct your errors. Your pundit opinions are not allowed! Is that the thinking? In case you haven't noticed, we're running out of all types of right leaning sources to cite in order to provide all significant views, and that includes articles about right wing topics - it's kinda funny. It reminds me of how some universities refused to allow conservative speakers onto their campuses (some of whom I wouldn't allow, either) but what about free speech and open dialogue? Is that what we're doing; not allowing conservative opinion on WP? How is that the sum of all knowledge? I'm sorry, but I don't get it. I've had a long & successful career in media and I am dumbfounded by the way we're treating sources - it is so obviously partisan. The system we're using is flawed because it's primarily opinion based. Oh they made errors and don't bother to correct them!! Really? Show me the errors they didn't correct, or are you referring to opinions? They cast aspersions and downgrade a source, and all I've ever asked for is evidence to support the allegations, the same way I presented evidence throughout this discussion. I think WaPo definitely deserves the same consideration that Fox received with a 3 or 5 panel close of politically neutral admins. I would just like to understand why it's not being allowed, and we're simply dismissing any discussion about it, and those of us who do discuss it become targets if we dare advise editors to excercise caution when citing WaPo, and use in-text attribution. Atsme 💬 📧 04:04, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
It is an unfortunate reality that right-wing sources are by-and-large less reliable, and right-wing people are more likely to share fake news ("Conservatives were more likely to share articles from fake news domains, which in 2016 were largely pro-Trump in orientation, than liberals or moderates"). As Guy pointed out, Colbert's statement that "reality has a well-known liberal bias" is sadly rather accurate. Extremists on both sides of the isle are prone to succumbing to journalistic excess and promoting fake news, but the fact is that much right-wing media was created as a reaction to a purported left-wing bias in mainstream media, and many of these outlets, such as Fox News, are intentionally much much further to the right (and closer to fitting the definition of extremist) than WaPo and NYT are to the left. There is much less daylight between Fox News and the Daily Caller than there is between the WaPo and the Daily Kos. It is a false equivalency to compare Fox News and the WaPo or NYT as though they were both similar outlets who are similarly far to one side of the political spectrum, and similarly lax in journalistic integrity. A better comparison would be Fox News and something like Huffington Post, which has an RSP entry that largely includes the same caveats as Fox News'. When there actually is equivalency, we treat them equivalently. NonReproBlue (talk) 06:17, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  • Post archive comment: impressive to see that after this long of discussion the conclusion seems to be "it's ok if OUR sources do it". Move along, nothing to see here. 205.175.106.86 (talk) 04:08, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Why doesn't Rebel News appear on the list?

Drawger.com and illoz.com

Drawger.com and illoz.com are two websites that allow illustrators to post their work or portfolio. They are operated by

WP:SPS? Do they have any value towards notability? (I'm fairly sure the answer to that is no). I guess I am wondering overall what editors think of the quality of these sources, as we have to remove or fix a lot of them.--- Possibly (talk
) 17:06, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Looks like they're group blogs. The repeated usage of drawger at your example page is definitely unacceptable, although linking to the site in External Links should be fine, as that seems to be where the artist posts his own work. Definitely no value in determining notability. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 17:17, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
Just a note that I'm going through the illustrator biographies I've added or edited with this in mind. May take a bit to clean all these up but I'm working on it.Rezimmerman (talk) 20:50, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Ideological Turing test

This article has been a redirect since 2017, but an editor recently resurrected it. I removed what I believe to be unreliable sources including: blogs on TypePad, Wordpress, Econlib (mainly by the inventor of the term) and Patheos; commentary at LessWrong and The Volokh Conspiracy; and a primary-sourced video from a libertarian think-tank.

This has all been reinserted by the same editor. I really don't think these sources are acceptable, and I am unable to find, in the ~140 unique GHits for the term, anything approaching a genuinely usable source on a supposedly academic concept. But maybe I am wrong - maybe The Volokh Conspiracy is reliable for economics? Guy (help! - typo?) 23:26, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I don't think so either... so I just said it should be deleted. Hopefully, it is deleted in the future. --Historyday01 (talk) 21:36, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

InfoRos

Per recent reporting from the US Government ([44]):

The GRU operates InfoRos. InfoRos calls itself a news agency but is primarily run by the GRU’s 72nd Main Intelligence Information Center (GRITs). GRITs is a unit within Russia’s Information Operations Troops, which is identified as Russia’s military force for conducting cyber espionage, influence, and offensive cyber operations. InfoRos operates under two organizations, “InfoRos, OOO” and “IA InfoRos.” InfoRos used a network of websites, including nominally independent websites, to spread false conspiracy narratives and disinformation promoted by GRU officials. Denis Tyurin (Tyurin) held a leadership role in InfoRos and had previously served in the GRU.

I believe these should be blacklisted in the same way as Southfront (also mentioned int he same story and blacklisted per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 281 § RfC: Deprecation of fake news / disinformation sites.. Guy (help! - typo?) 10:07, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Support. I'll add some more: Inforos was founded by Association of Business Communities Joint Center for Business Operation SCO (Russian: Ассоциация Предпринимательских Сообществ Объединенный Центр Делового Сотрудничества ШОС). This association was founded by Sergey (or Sergei) Kanavsky (Канавский Сергей Вадимович), Denis Tyurin (Тюрин Денис Валерьевич) and Alexandr Starunsky (or Starunskij Aleksandr; Старунский Александр Геннадьевич). Kanavsky worked as a Russian diplomatic officer in Scandinavia and then as a deputy chairman of the Federation Council of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation).[45]. Starunsky allegedly also worked for the GRU (just like Tyurin).
Inforos is headed by Ilyashenko Andrey Vitalievich (Russian: Ильяшенко Андрей Витальевич), former RIA Novosti deputy editor in chief and former columnist of Voice of Russia (now Sputnik (news agency)). ObservateurContinental.fr which spread COVID disinformation, is owned by Inforos. Read this: [46], [47], [48].--Renat 11:45, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Comment. I think Wikipedia won't lose anything if these were deprecated, especially considering that they are used only 4 times. From the procedural point of view, it would be good to have some kind of independent assessment of its (un)reliability, rather than relying on the US government assessment. After all it also has an agenda. Alaexis¿question? 12:12, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Open Council Data UK

Does anyone have a view on whether the above (website here) is

WP:SELFPUB and if so whether it comes within the exception. It provides data on the composition of UK elected local authority bodies, including in Scotland. I believe it’s widely used on WP - and latterly at Alba Party#Representatives. The only information on its provenance is on this web page. DeCausa (talk
) 10:02, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

  • That would require the author to be regarded as a subject-matter expert, who could generally be relied upon. We can't make our own judgements on this, we need them to effectively adopted as such by another source already considered reliable. Because of what you said about the difficulties of citing this any other way I did a couple of brief searches and found https://www.democraticaudit.com/2018/04/27/englands-local-elections-how-councillor-numbers-are-being-reduced-by-stealth/ this article by Democratic Audit which criticises their accuracy (by way of omission) in what they call an "exceptional instance" whereas otherwise they consider the source "particularly comprehensive, and any errors usually minor and inconsequential." They're kinda small and hard to verify the accuracy of, but they have editorial processes and oversight, and have published a book; they seem to be taken seriously. Therefore, I suggest the source probably can be used, with appropriate caution: Nothing controversial, and only where better sources are unavailable. 92.24.246.11 (talk) 18:46, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your time in research. I also looked for other publications citing the website. They exist, but nothing of particular note. I don't think this source is being used for anything other than a running total of councillors and their political allegiances. Nothing particularly controversial. In the case of the Alba party, I guess the section in question will be replaced by the results of the 2021 elections after May 6, 2021. But then, in any case, the question arises of the source to use for any changes after the elections. Thanks again. Psychomike (talk) 19:19, 19 April 2021 (UTC)