Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 341

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

• I want to know - can information on the knowledge panel be used as an reliable source of article for a wiki page creation? I really need to know this please help.

• Gulf News
• thenationalnews.com

I've noticed that most UAE-related articles source content to these news outlets. I strongly suspect that these outlets are not independent of the authoritarian regime in the UAE. For example, this is how Gulf News describes Sulaiman Al-Fahim, a convicted grifter who pretends to have a PhD[1] and has close ties with the authoritarian regime in Dubai:

• At 31, Dr Sulaiman Abul Kareem Mohammad Al Fahim's achievements rival those of seasoned professionals twice his age. Today, his seemingly boundless energy is directed at building new ventures. What drives this former child prodigy, chess champion, entrepreneur, philanthropist and academic to generate ideas, pursue opportunities and turn them into successful enterprises?

Basic fact-checking would have shown that he does not have a PhD (as the NY Times confirmed with a phone call[2]) and the article completely omits any relationship with the authoritarian regime (which should matter for success in business). I'm raising flags about these outlets in cases anyone checks them in the future here.

UAE has censorship, and the media are not considered free in the country.

As for Gulf News Apparently the managing director of Gulf News's parent company is the minister of finance of UAE and is chairman of UAE state telecom company, so I would absolutely not expect impartiality from that resource.

It even seems the source has not checked the webpage of the grifter, which says he doesn't have a PhD, only an MBA.

The National seems to be even worse, as it was created in 2008 by the UAE government and is now owned by a company controlled by deputy prime minister of UAE, who is a royal family member.

I therefore confirm your suspicions. The problem is - what is the alternative? I can't think of a good enough resource to cover UAE. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki: There is Pakistani media, which I flagged above with regards to geo.tv. That covers the UAE quite frequently, although questions have been raised about the reliability of Pakistani media also. I'd appreciate more opinions. IronManCap (talk) 19:00, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

I guess one of the easiest steps would be to remove content sourced to these outlets that is used for self-serving puffery. For example, content that emphasizes that various UAE government figures promote human rights, how they are responsible for economic prosperity, all the awards they have won, and all the bodies that they've headed. I've been trying to remove some absurd sentence in the lead of

talk

) 19:11, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Agreed to what you say. emirates247 is owned by Dubai Media Inc., which is wholly owned by the Government of Dubai. It is very strange they insist on it being reliable when it patently isn't, particularly when talking of the UAE royal family. Basically every government-owned (either federal govt or emirate-owned) media resource in UAE seems to be more or less the same quality as the Chinese/Russian government-owned media (i.e. OK when citing government positions, or some, dunno, sports and other uncontroversial subjects; unusable otherwise), but I can't make a distinction between various media outlets and between Arabic-language and English-language coverage, as I don't know Arabic (meaning which resources may be admissible for most circumstances and which are to be deprecated).

I can't contribute much to the topic (it's not my area of interest), but from what I see you wrote on the talk page, yes, I wholeheartedly support it. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 20:44, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Gulf News and The National aren't RS? Where did this come from? They're national daily newspapers in a UN member state. What about Khaleej Times, Gulf Today, Ittihad, Bayan and Emarat Al Youm? Why exclude them? It would take some experience, I would have thought, in the Emirates' media sector to produce reliable commentary and assessment of the various media outlets here. There's a lot of POV going on here from

Where did this come from? See above explanation (UAE is not a democracy, has censorship, and both of the outlets are directly or indirectly controlled by UAE or emirate government, which significantly influences the independence, hence reliability, of reporting).

They're national daily newspapers in a UN member state. First, there is basically no country in the world which is not part of UN (well, Western Sahara isn't, but it's mostly occupied by Morocco). North Korea and Cuba are also UN member states, which doesn't mean their newspapers are fine; Chinese media mostly aren't reliable, either. You set too low a bar.

What about Khaleej Times, Gulf Today, Ittihad, Bayan and Emarat Al Youm? Why exclude them? Well, these outlets have not been under discussion here. To be brief in my answer: Khaleej Times - no opinion; Gulf Today - should be evaluated together with Khaleej Times, but otherwise no opinion (the owners are the same); Ittihad - same opinion as The National (i.e. since, according to the Arabic Wikipedia (Google-translated) it is owned by the Abu Dhabi Media company, a government-controlled company, it is almost certainly not reliable for political coverage, but might be better for other uses); Emarat Al Youm - published by Dubai Media Inc., a Dubai emirate government company, therefore same opinion as Emirates 24/7.

There's a lot of POV going on here from

Snooganssnoogans and its showing in the edits being made Nope. The opinion you quote is the opinion of Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Reporters without Borders etc. See this

article for details. Since there is ample evidence to the claim, it's not illegal POV-pushing.

So if we assume that the Evil Emirates makes North Korea look like a liberal regime No one is claiming UAE is worse than North Korea - in fact, it's not as abysmal, but it's not good, either. And yes, a lot of media outlets are government-controlled by ownership, while private media are subject to restrictive laws on news reporting, which are not conducive to reliable reporting.

The world's 30th largest economy should be excluded from Wikipedia because one editor is getting a severe case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT is hardly an argument that would seem to me to be terribly bright. Well, we on Wikipedia even deprecate a lot of outlets from the world's second-largest economy. Just how big the country's economy is is irrelevant.

By arguing here, [...] media declared non-RS. Or am I wrong? We on Wikipedia don't care to create a positive image for UAE, but an objective one. Unfortunately, it is often not possible to do so using domestic media. You are free to share your opinions, but do expect them to be confronted with analyses from other editors, which will often include objective criteria, such as ownership, country of operation, tone of coverage of politically delicate matters etc. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 08:01, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

We do, indeed, aim to create an objective picture. That includes using media sources on the ground. Yes, they are uncritical of the leadership. But I don't think your picture of a censored media governed by restrictive laws is fair these days, either. Balance is clearly always good, but we also need to make sure we don't swing the other way in our eagerness to balance things, giving

WP:UNDUE weight to certain aspects of life in the Emirates. Blanket deprecating the national media is really not the way to go, IMHO. An afterthought - the media here is not used as a tool for international influence or political point-scoring like, for instance, RT or CCTV. It's domestic media covering domestic affairs for a domestic audience. And in many, many cases for WP, it's the only source editors here can use - and reliable in the vast majority of cases. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk

) 10:31, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Which is exactly my concern. As I said, until we have evaluated them all on

WP:RSP

, I'd propose not to use them at least when describing a) whatever pertains to the royal family and their government, as their reporting will not be objective; b) whatever is written about countries on the Arabian peninsula, because, as we know, they are not particularly friendly of each other (one of the reasons I would not cite Al Jazeera in this case, even the English one); c) I'd be still cautious with the Israel coverage even when the relations have normalised; reporting on other Arab countries and Iran should also be given particular attention while citing; if possible, we should use other resources, otherwise, evaluate the plausibility and cite with attribution if the info is plausible enough. Additional considerations or exemptions may apply for other media resources, particularly if not controlled by UAE government, except for point a) from the list, because AFAIK Arab media do not have a tradition to criticise the rulers of the country in which they are in.

Also, all of the reporting has to be evaluated for neutrality and being due. What sounds like blatant promotion of the monarch, or, in the case cited, an interview/essay that was almost certainly paid for should not be included, which is of course not only the problem of UAE (it also happens in Ukraine pretty often).

I propose to use them for non-controversial news relating to domestic affairs (e.g. opening of a highway) and while reporting the stance of the government of UAE (federal or emirate), with attribution in the latter case. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 12:01, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

None of the UAE newspapers offer paid-for editorial outside 'special advertising supplements', which are clearly flagged as such. FWIW. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 15:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about that. This article reads like as if someone has paid a bunch of dirhams to have a short biography published and then make an ad for The Hydra Executives Show. It apparently is written by Sara Sayed (at least she was the responsible editor), but just after a few paragraphs the narrator suddenly starts to speak in first person and obviously about Al Fahim, not her. He boasts about having been "fifth in the world when he was 9", which is

WP:EXTRAORDINARY

(and we don't know which tournament allowed people from around the world at such a young age - it's simply non-verifiable). He does mention having received a PhD, but oddly enough his personal webpage is silent on that (why?). Nothing about fraud. And a lot about his show. For instance, it is indicated twice that the winners gonna get a million bucks, with the second mention appearing to be taken from a draft version (really, it looks awful). Ms Sayed should have known better, even if she's freelance.

In short, that's what we in music call payola (in this case, for The Hydra Executives Show). Szmenderowiecki (talk) 20:48, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

The comments by Alexandermcnabb seem confused as to what reliability entails. Reliability is not determined on the basis of where a source is located. Breitbart News isn't a RS for US politics just because it's located in the US. In fact, there are many non-US news outlets that are far more reliable for US politics than Breitbart.

No confusion here. Brietbart has an extreme agenda - you yourself used the phrase, "Arab media do not have a tradition to criticise the rulers of the country in which they are in" and that's very true. Beyond that, UAE media are generally (GENERALLY) not politicised or regional in their focus. And they don't have extreme or fringe motivations, they're not puppet media of the regime, they're generally let well alone to do their job: reporting news. Gulf News can get a bit purple sometimes. But that's hardly the stuff of broad deprecation. My point regarding location is that these newspapers are the only sources generally available to WP editors based in the Emirates. And they are generally sound, if perhaps also generally uncritical. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 15:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I think their coverage is almost always highly politicized... What it is not is polarized because that requires the toleration of at least one opposing political group. If you want an example of why we can’t use Gulf News see their coverage related to Latifa Al Maktoum... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:07, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, these are obviously reliable. I suggest everyone here tread carefully, so others don't assume that this is thinly veiled racism and/or Islamophobia. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 18:00, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

• Reliable for uncontroversial statements of fact but I would not use them in any area where there is a conflict of interest based on their ownership, for all intents and purposes neither of these organizations has real editorial independence. Unreliable areas would include human rights, civil rights, Emirati royal families, international relations, national security, and all BLP. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
• Um, no one said a thing about racism or Islamophobia until you tried to play that card, Mister Emir of Wikipedia. The media in question are not being singled out because of the ethnicity of who controls them, they are being called out for their failure of reliable sourcing policy. ValarianB (talk) 12:53, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

  I am not playing any card. Editors are deeming sources as unreliable based on a single article from The New York Times. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:58, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

A good example of the kinds of problems that have been highlighted in this discussion is the

Yeah, the article reads like advertising. Given that even Alexandermcnabb admits the Arab world media are normally uncritical towards their rulers and monarchs, we cannot consider coverage from the Gulf News or the National and like news outlets to be impartial in their coverage. It badly needs rewriting, but let a person with good knowledge of Arabic and media do it. (Note. A template was inserted) Szmenderowiecki (talk) 13:47, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@Alexandermcnabb: were you planning to mention that both of those outlets have published full length features on you? Because thats the sort of COI that needs disclosing... [3][4]. Especially given how, ahem, strident your arguments have been. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:41, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Ooh, lookie! I'm notable!!! A newspaper interviews me and I have a lifelong COI barring me - someone who has spent the last 35 years in the Middle East media industry - from discussing Emirati media as a result? That's reaching pretty hard, there. You'll also find Dubai TV, Dubai Radio, the BBC and ITV have interviewed me. So I can't discuss them objectively either? As for the MBRGI article, sourced "near-exclusively to non-independent sources", you're calling Gulf Business, Gulf News, What's On, The National, Forbes Middle East, Saudi Gazette and Khaleej Times, all cited as backing non-controversial statistics, all non-independent? That leaves UAE based editors unable to source any article about pretty much anything - and it's a nonsense. BTW, if the organisation had benefitted 69 million people, please educate me and tell me what's wrong with saying 'the organisation benefitted 69 million people'??? Or are we in the old territory of that well-worn trope: 'nothing the Arab world can do could possibly be good'? Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 09:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

No one was saying you’re barred from anything, but you should have mentioned it in your first post here. Something along the lines of “BTW both have written fawning feature length pieces about me but my opinion is not influenced by that.” would have been appropriate. Why did you feel that it was appropriate to invoke your long experience in the area and not mention your explicit connection to these two papers? If you’re going to trade of the credibility gained by using your real identity and repeatedly referring that experience in conversation then yeah, you should disclose pretty obvious potential COIs in those same conversations. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:30, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I took a stab at removing the most brazen kind of puffery from the article [Mohammed bin Rashid Global Initiatives] but it was immediately restored by Alexandermcnabb[5]. I thought there was an agreement that at the very least we shouldn't source brazen puffery sourced non-independent news outlets. For example, claims that the dictator's philanthropy "benefitted 69 million" people and had "90,000 volunteers" are extraordinary, and require high-quality sourcing.

This is all getting very personal, is it not? Fawning feature length pieces? That's terribly subjective - but then so much of the strongly expressed opinion flying around here is. I'm not trading on the credibility of using my real identity, I just use my real identity. I'm not ashamed of me. As for repeatedly referring to my experience, I don't believe I have. It was other editors who decided to Google me and bring these interviews to the table. I'm not sure how far down that ad hominem road you go before you're WP:HOUNDING an editor who disagrees with you, but it would be patently ridiculous (as well as obnoxious) for me to preface every conversation I have about the region with lists of media I have worked with, been interviewed by or have had reviews - fawning or otherwise - of my books or other work published by. I've worked in the region's media industry since 1986 - you can assume I have had some sort of personal connection with each and every medium in the region and beyond. So where is that a COI? It's like complaining that a horse trainer can't comment on horses because they've worked at stables. The 'brazen puffery' in the MBRGI article, incidentally, is plain fact sourced from the annual report of a philanthropic organisation. Beneficiaries and volunteers sourced to a charity's own annual report would strike me as perfectly everyday. Unless you're on a crusade and lack sufficient balance to be a safe pair of hands when editing an encyclopaedia, for instance. Repeatedly referring to Maktoum as a 'dictator' would seem to be, to me, an indicator that such balance is lacking. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 15:15, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

If you keep this up you’re looking at a topic ban or worse. Of course you’re trading on the credibility of using your real identity... You do it every time you mention your work experience, years in the region, etc which you do pretty much every day. What else do you call “define systematic and severe. I've worked in the region for 35 years and lived here in the Emirates for over 28 years, working mostly in media here. I've never seen these 'systematic and severe' violations. I've never even seen one. I must be wholly blind or perhaps there's another narrative not quite as fund-raisingly eye-catching as that presented - based on a tiny number of alleged cases - by Amnesty, HRW and Freedom House. Huge improvements have been made here - particularly under Mohammed - but you're so keen to wield the bludgeon, you're not even looking at that more nuanced picture. And that's, honestly, a shame.”[6]. That really looks like you’re trying to use your personal credibility backed by your real identity to cast doubt on the reporting of a whole host of WP:RS, you realize that right? BTW I didn’t google you, I found those articles because you feature them prominently on your blog which you feature prominently on your wikipedia account. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:46, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• In the specific example
  context of Sulaiman Al-Fahim, it shouldn't be considered a reliable source. On the other hand, I'm reluctant to further deprecation of national media outlets, which are valuable sources for many topics. MarioGom (talk
  ) 23:00, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

  Context does matter. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:57, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

From Did Chinese Virologist Dr. Li-Meng Yan Say COVID-19 Was Made in a Wuhan Lab? on Snopes:

"...the suggestion is false, misleading, and based on a non-peer-reviewed report that was published in two separate studies on Sept. 14 and Oct. 8 in the preprint server Zenodo, which means that the research had not gone through rigorous editorial critically evaluated by scientific experts with an extra degree of scrutiny. Research that has not been peer-reviewed is akin to a blog — anyone can publish one online with little expertise. A reviewed study, on the other hand, is on par with a well-vetted, expertly researched textbook."

--Guy Macon (talk) 00:53, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Like, is this not common knowledge? Nobody should be citing unreviewed preprints for statements of fact. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:56, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

@Guy Macon: uses of Zenodo in our articles.[7] Doug Weller talk 10:43, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Doug Weller, good luck purging those. The Zenodo fanbois are loud. Guy (help! - typo?) 11:49, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Hey, @JzG:, @Guy Macon:, you all mind if I assist in their removal too? Question: Does Zenodo clearly label and show when a pre-print has been properly published in a journal like bioRxiv does? Since I presume papers that have been properly published are fine to stay (though the reference should really be swapped over to point at that version), but i'd like to focus for now on the not yet published stuff. If Zenodo doesn't have that accessibility function, that makes this more annoying and I guess i'd be more inclined to just remove all such references wholesale. Silverseren^C 21:08, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Silver seren, they generally do not identify subsequent publication, is my experience. But this may have changed over time. And it's possible they may have removed all the copyright violations as well. But I'd want evidence. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:13, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

You weren't kidding, Guy, my god. Look at

RS violations front to back and there's article after article like this. I can see why it's aggravating to deal with, since you're basically having to trash entire articles on clearly notable topics and i'm sure there's a ton of resistance. Welp...*rolls up sleeves* I'm going in anyways. Silverseren^C

23:28, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I would say that is a google search for "exact name on preprint" (with the quotes) doesn't show it being later published we can assume that it wasn't. If the published paper is paywalled, I say leave both citations in the article with a (preprint) label on one of them.

I think in a few select cases you might be able to keep the content and replace the preprint citation with a Citation Needed, but mostly the claim would have to go.

So should we ask the edit notice gnomes for an edit notice for whenever someone tries to add or re-add a preprint citation? Are there sites other than Zenodo that contain only preprints? --Guy Macon (talk) 23:41, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

List of ant genera is an example of Zenodo being used with actual published studies. Not sure why the Zenodo preprint is the one being linked to through when there should be actual journal published page links one can use. Still not entirely defensible of a decision, but not one where the reference itself should be removed, since it is done properly outside of the URL itself. Silverseren^C 00:02, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

A good time to pimp

b

} 00:40, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@

@Austronesier: Did that subject matter expert never publish their work? Considering we have an article on Ulrike Mosel, I would presume they actually have published studies and books that can be cited, rather than a pre-print archive? Not sure why their non-peer reviewed stuff should be included. Silverseren^C 18:20, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Mosel has published several peer-reviewed articles on Teop, which makes her the subject matter expert. The case of dictionaries has become a bit different from typical scholarly works, as many of them are work-in-progress databases that won't ever see a peer-reviewed print version or at least a final static peer-reviewed online version. This includes epochal and oft-cited works such as Sergei Starostin's Towel of Babel or Robert Blust's Austronesian Comparative Dictionary. Actually, the Zenodo link of Mosel's Teop dictionary is not self-published, but part of a project by the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology (MPI EVA). It has a more respectable URL under [9], but note that the DOI used by the MPI EVA goes to Zenodo which here serves as more than just a pre-print archive. That said, the article content currently does not depend on this source. The URL was added as an "External link", which makes sense since we often have dictionaries under "Further reading" or "External links". –Austronesier (talk) 19:22, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

From The Guardian:

• They kill the person twice’: police spread falsehoods after using deadly force, analysis finds

"A review of police killings in California showed that law enforcement spokespeople frequently publish highly misleading or sometimes false information about the people they have killed. Over the last five years, the Guardian found at least a dozen examples in the state of initial police statements misrepresenting events, with major omissions about the officers’ actions, inaccurate narratives about the victims’ behaviors, or blatant falsehoods about decisive factors.

In some cases, police cited vague “medical emergencies” without disclosing that officers had caused the emergencies through their use of force. In others, departments falsely claimed that the civilians had been armed or had overdosed. In most instances, media outlets repeated the police version of events with little skepticism."

From Wikipedia's standpoint the way to handle this is the way we always have: when reporting a press release from any organization, including cities and police departments, use attribution. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:58, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, direct attribution seems required, since there's been far too many incidents of police reports being found to contain fabrications after the fact. Especially since many of those reports are just the information from the officers' reports, whom themselves are an involved party in such incidents. So there would obviously be a bias from the get go. Silverseren^C 21:10, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Is neweconomicperspectives.org a reliable source for a BLP? Currently, it's the only source in the criticism section for Tyler Cowen. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 21:00, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

It looks a lot like a wordpress blog, which would generally be unreliable as it is self-published. It self-describes as a blog, and while it might be an expert blog in some areas,

talk

) 23:17, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

MMT is for now an out-of-mainstream doctrine (and is generally considered to be so), but a) economics do allow heterodox doctrines to be discussed, b) seems COVID forced MMT closer to the center of the economic debate. I don't think we should discredit an economist based on his/her being an MMT supporter. If we allow Austrian School for discussion, so we should MMT. It is certainly an advocacy group (something that, in a more professional setting, would be called a think tank), and I oppose dismissing think tanks just for being think tanks.

The criticism section gave too much space for a single person, agreed; however, it was salvageable and, in my view, acceptable, as the guy in question is a subject-matter expert with relevant expertise and papers published, therefore I don't agree with Mikehawk's revert. There are some folks on the forum who are not subject matter experts (J.D. Alt is an architect who became interested in MMT), but others have the necessary credentials, and the stories they publish seem to be just fine for an

WP:SELFPUB

says no self-published source should be used for whichever BLP claim, the post does not relate strictly to BLP but rather to the scholarship the person writes, which is not, from my reading, covered by WP:BLP - this has more to do with normal debate rather than making claims about a person's life.

I'd directly attribute to Blake's opinions, noting he's an MMT supporter, but not exclude it. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 07:06, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Black's posts [10][11][12] have a distinctly unrestrained "blog" tone which, frankly, sometimes borders on personal attack. This is clearly not scholarly material and not appropriate for BLPs. JBchrch talk 10:33, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree that as a blog, they could allow much laxer tone restrictions - not necessarily a bad thing for me. Style is not something that make the resource not to be trusted. I don't find it a typically self-published resource, as they seem to hint, at least a little, that they do have some editorial oversight, though it is certainly not as rigorous as in typical scientific publications. The question for me is not whether the oversight exists (it does) but is oversight present there enough to make the source usable for BLP statements. The problem is, some treat the scientific research/advocacy for policy as part of BLP, which I doubt very much, given that

WP:UNDUE

questions, however, should rather not be discussed here, but on the talk page.

Can I trust it to be the opinion of the folks representing MMT community? Pretty much so, from what I see, because MMT pretty much is about government regulation (mostly, of taxes, which they claim to be the most important). Is the opinion piece grounded in fact and MMT view on economics? Yes. Is it just ad hominem attacks? Not from what I read from the cited passages, although admittedly the person uses strong words of opinion, but at least it is made clear it is opinion and I don't believe the author crossed red lines. Is the person an economist with expertise in the domain? Certainly.

Tl;dr: The passage should have been reformulated and not deleted, and

WP:UNDUE do not belong here. Szmenderowiecki (talk

) 17:10, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

It is really this complex?

WP:SPS is pretty clear: Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer. JBchrch talk

22:19, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

It's not complex, because my belief is it isn't. Fortunately I am able to read, thank you, but since it is my belief that it is not self-published, I saw this particular sentence as inapplicable in the context. See I don't find it a typically self-published resource, as they seem to hint, at least a little, that they do have some editorial oversight, though it is certainly not as rigorous as in typical scientific publications. With the word "typically" I mean that I can't definitely rule it out, but for me, odds are it is not self-published. A resource can't be both self-published and have at least some degree of editorial oversight at the same time - these statements are mutually exclusive. Does it mean it's reliable? Not necessarily (though I believe it is reliable for opinions of the subject-matter experts who publish there). Is it automatically usable for BLP because it's not self-published? Nope. But I believe the arguments for reverting the edit counterweigh the arguments for leaving the article in the current state. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 22:49, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Gotcha. I did not understand that you didn't consider it to be 100% self-pub and I certainly did not mean my comment as a personal attack. I still think it's inappropriate for a BLP but now I understand your argument. JBchrch talk 23:10, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I guess my point is more that if there isn't evidence of significant oversight, we have a tendency to treat it as a

talk

) 00:12, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you in that I neither can find their policy, and I'm afraid I won't even get an answer if I ask for one, because the last post was written in early April last year and the contact form is broken. That said, a group of experts which The New Yorker recognizes the blog as being the most influential one of the MMT group. Moreover, I found a link from University of Mo. - Kansas City that the blog is the blog of the UMKC Economics Department (or so it was in 2012). For a prominent group of MMT theoretics who have an endorsement from a university, there are more chances for them to have the oversight than not. We can't say that for a blog considered influential, especially with the majority of those writing there being scholars, the chance of it not having any review whatsoever is small.

Their works have also been cited by Penn Political Review (1), praised by these researchers in a peer-reviewed paper and used as a source in another. They are also acknowledged here, and there is evidence they are cited in research; not very much but still. All of these signs indicate to me that they are recognised as a group of scholars whose papers can be trusted to be passing through some form of editorial review; otherwise they wouldn't be cited (you know, citing self-published sources for a peer-reviewed paper is not necessarily a good idea). That's how I see it. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 04:46, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I am not impressed by the sources you are bringing up.

• The Penn Political Review says We are not an academic journal, but rather a “soapbox” for members of the Penn community to share their opinions and learn from one another about the diverse viewpoints found on Penn’s campus [13].
• The Journal of Post Keynesian Economics contests the mainstream orthodoxy with Keynes’s vision of open-ended economic study [14]. The article describes them as a blog.
• People at Renewal believe that a radical and emancipatory vision of social democracy can be realised in the twenty-first century and demand the expansion of real freedom and equality for all, and an end to the commodification of nature and daily life [15].
• Epstein describes the website as a blog and calls them bloggers and advocates.
• I am not clear on what the Google Scholar link shows?

All in all, this only confirms that this is blog pushing heterodox (if not fringe) views in the field of economics. Should stay out of BLPs. JBchrch talk 15:30, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I dug through Google Scholar, so thanks for pointing out faultiness of some resources. I'll discuss them below based on the info.

You seem to conflate "blog" and "self-published, therefore unreliable for BLP". A recent discussion on ACRLog concluded that it was a blog, but it was reliable because it had endorsement from librarians' academic associations and those who posted info were academics, and the info was reviewed. So even there blog≠self-published, though I agree it is often the case. Even an advocacy blog may have editorial review, and I stated explicitly that while it is an advocacy resource, the opinions can be attributed.

As for the resources - Penn Political Review - yep, my bad. Journal of Post-Keynesian Economics is a peer-reviewed journal, and while it is niche, we shouldn't be excluding journals only based on their worldview (well, there is strong indication a lot of folks do, but that doesn't mean we should, too). Bias does not influence reliability. Ditto for Renewal. Remember that MMT will attract people from the left - it is by no means disqualifying. Epstein is right to say that it is a blog, because, as you have probably read from The New Yorker/WSJ, it was intended to be one.

The Google Scholar link I provided was to show that the articles from New Economic Perspectives are cited, two or three times, but they still are. Is it therefore fringe (because of little citation)? Well, MMT is described as heterodox, but that is not a disqualifying trait for RS, either. The only problem might be that it is not due, but again, MMT is now pretty much talked about in the media and slowly comes out from a niche and towards the centre of debate. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:53, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Personal or group blogs are considered self-published per

WP:USEBYOTHERS argument: this heterodox blog was cited in heterodox outlets, not the Journal of Political Economy. So that says very little about its general reliability. JBchrch talk

22:43, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

• Reliable or
  WP:UNDUE. --Jayron32
  12:01, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
• I agree with Mikwehawk's removal. Whether or not we're talking about Cowen himself or his work, this still falls under BLP.
  WP:BLPSPS makes it pretty clear that we can't use blogs or other self-published sources in BLPs. Dr. Swag Lord (talk
  ) 21:48, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

https://www.silkroadfoundation.org

This publication sometimes refers to itself as "Silk Road Journal", but should NOT be confused with Silk Road Journal Online, which is definitely a reliable publication, and which has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

The Silk Road "Journal" that is the subject of this discussion is based primarily around Central Asian archaeology and history. It typically publishes theoretical articles written by individual researchers, who are disproportionately from Russia and China. The sole editor of the publication, Daniel Waugh, has candidly stated that it has no formal peer review:

http://www.silkroadfoundation.org/newsletter/vol15/srjournal_v15.pdf

From the outset, there has been no formal process of peer review, such as one expects in the standard academic journals. We still solicit articles (a task which largely has devolved on me over the years), though we also receive (but have not been overwhelmed by) unsolicited submissions.

Decisions on what to publish (as with any journal) ultimately rest with the editor, who in this case, for better or worse, has acted as the peer reviewer. I often see what I think is gold in material that could never find its way into a standard academic publication. But the perils of rarely seeking outside opinions may mean things slip through without acknowledgement that a subject has been thoroughly treated elsewhere.

The lack of formal peer review does have the unfortunate consequence that junior scholars hoping to advance in their profession may avoid us, since their promotion will depend in the first instance on peer reviewed publication, however excellent (and widely cited) a piece might be which we would publish. Yet in some cases where there is a premium for academics in other countries to publish in a respected journal in English, we have been able to provide just such an opportunity. Many of the senior scholars we have solicited for contributions have politely refused to write for us, since they are already over-committed [...]

So basically, the Silk Road Foundation is a mill for primary research that is not formally peer reviewed. The editor describes himself as someone who often sees "gold in material that would never find its way in to a standard academic publication". A lot of researchers don't want to write for it, and those that do are disproportionately from non-English speaking countries, who struggle to get their theories published in standard English-language journals.

To my mind, this is very near to the definition of predatory publishing, with the exception that the Silk Road Foundation does not even provide useful quirks like DOI. So it's really more like an internet blog.

The Silk Road Foundation is cited on various ethnical and archaeological articles on Wikipedia, often advancing pet theories, which is out of touch with

Thanks for your attention, and I look forward to your comments. Hunan201p (talk) 03:08, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

What exactly are you looking for here? You've answered your own question. It's not peer-reviewed.

b

} 03:42, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, Headbomb: this source is widely cited on Wikipedia and especially on ethnographical and historical articles. What I'm looking at here is whether or not this is a matter for deprecation or classification as generally unreliable, because a lot of people are apparently unaware that the publisher doesn't peer review, and will continue citing it in the future if it doesn't get blackballed. Hunan201p (talk) 03:48, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

@Hunan201p: It seems you wanted to trigger the RfC on the topic of reliability of the Silk Road Foundation (diff). If so, a few things:

1. "Wikipedia proposals" is a non-article RfC (project-wide), so it's not very suitable for evaluation for reliability of articles published on a source in question. "Wikipedia proposals" have more to do with changing the rules Wikipedia governs itself, and seems to be a general venue for other non-article RfCs, too. You might want to ask for the opinion of folks in "History and geography" for evaluation of the source, though, as this is the closest topic to archaeology available.

2. Please place the RfC header at the top of the whole discussion, and formulate a short question. Guidance of how to write them is described in

WP:RfC

. It then should appear on the RfC webpage - if it doesn't, you'll probably have to make it shorter.

3. It would be desirable to have an ongoing dispute about the resource in the first place to trigger an RfC. While the usage is indeed quite wide on Wikipedia, I would like to see the underlying arguments and possibly then vote for something. Could you please link to some discussions (not necessarily ongoing) that feature the resource?

PS. I have removed spare lines from the quotes because they looked awful in the source text. And unfortunately, I've got nothing to say on the merits. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 05:22, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Hello, Szmenderowiecki. Thank you for fixing the source and for your helpful advice. The purpose of opening this discussion here is to get an RfC on whether The Silk Road Foundation should be deprecated, or classified as unreliable, as happened at the Daily Mail RfC. I'm not aware of any discussions that were ever made about Silk Road Foundation, and I don't believe anyone has noticed on Wikipedia up until now that this is not a peer reviewed source.

As I understand from the banner at the top of this page, and the aforementioned Daily Mail RfC, this is the place to "seek requests for comment for deprecation, or for blacklisting or classification as generally unreliable of sources that are widely used in articles". I don't have any articles on Wikipedia to complain about, or any Silk Road Foundation articles to complain about, this topic is strictly about the reliability of Silk Road Foundation. The Silk Road PDF I quoted is provided here only as evidence that the publication itself is not peer reviewed, and the complaint here is that a borderline predatory publisher is being prolifically cited on controversial subjects like linguistics and ethnic origins. Take care. Hunan201p (talk) 06:05, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

1. If there are no disputes you are aware of and no discussions have been held, I'd suggest you remove the RfC tag, because it's not yet something that was significant enough to be disputed, and it will anyway not really appear in

WP:ARCHAEO for their opinion on the resource. I also agree with Headbomb

that you have essentially answered your question, so if you want an RfC held, rewrite it so that it is not a polemic with yourself.

2. If you decide to stay with the RfC, Legobot (the bot that moves the question to the feedback request service list) does not see the content of the question. You should make the question shorter and put it at the top, too, for example: Is Silk Road Foundation's publication a predatory journal? or Should Silk Road Foundation's publication be used for Far East archaeology articles? etc. You then have to sign the question so that the bot copies the question. Also, I'd also suggest you mark the place for discussion and voting. See previous RfCs for reference. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 07:40, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

@

WP:RSP? I intend to start a discussion at ARCHAEO. Hunan201p (talk

) 09:20, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

@

WP:ARCHAEO, these are usually reserved for questions governing WikiProject and not specific enquiries as this one; and one more thing, it's a niche topic. Cheers. Szmenderowiecki (talk

) 09:59, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Deprecation/blacklisting is not necessary since this journal is already formally disqualified per default by the general rules of
  WP:SCHOLARSHIP. –Austronesier (talk
  ) 09:41, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
• @
  WP:FRS until a shorter statement is provided. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk
  ) 19:31, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Discussed perenially here, there is currently contention on using a Xinhua piece on the article for

• Unreliable and Undue. Per
  talk
  ) 21:47, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

We also have a real and present motivation here for Radio Free Asia to be used as a form of propaganda. There is no reason in my mind that Xinhua cannot be used to report on the opinions of the Chinese Embassy considering that this is a self-reflective usage of the source, and the video clearly shows the plaque is still intact, so given that no western source has reported on the video in any capacity, I don't see how Xinhua's reporting in this specific situation is unreliable.

talk

) 22:06, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

This isn’t reporting on the opinions of the Chinese Embassy, its reporting on a statement from a BLP who is not a part of the Chinese government. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:10, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Is it not a statement of fact that the Chinese Embassy has claimed that the plaque was relocated during renovation with a video of testimony from the Imam of the Mosque? That should be absolutely self-evident, and the overemphasis placed on sources such as Radio Free Asia over the clear existence of this video shows a heavy bias towards Western sources. Continual biblethumping over the general reliability does not change the individual reliability of this article's reporting on what has been put forth by the embassy.

talk

) 22:13, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

The game of telephone you’re talking about ends with a living person. All of the statements that have been added to the page so far fall under BLP, if you think that you can craft a statement which does not fall under those restrictions you are more than welcome to try. I’ve always been saying that this specific article's reporting is unreliable in this specific context, if you’re just realizing that now I don’t know how to help you. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:32, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

If you read the Radio Free Asia statement at

talk

) 23:54, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Putting aside my personal opinions that the RS discussion on RFA came to a woefully inaccurate conclusion (ignoring, among other things, RFA's tendency to grossly inflate covid statistics and fake testimonies for geopolitical reasons), this is a case by case analysis of the sourcing. RFA's claim is clearly inaccurate and inflammatory in nature, and yet we include it with in-line attribution based on a GENERAL discussion of reliability. Meanwhile, Xinhua's reporting on the Chinese Embassy and the Imam is evidently accurate (the plaque itself is shown on video), yet is rejected based on a GENERAL discussion of reliability.

talk

) 01:35, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

The RfC on Radio Free Asia acknowledged that for geopolitically sensitive subjects, in-text attribution of RFA's claims is appropriate. There is an acknowledgment that in some sensitive subject areas, RFA is a biased source with a somewhat checkered record. As I pointed out in the RfC, RFA has pushed disinformation over the last year about the CoVID-19 death toll in Wuhan, suggesting completely wild figures that are orders of magnitude higher than scientific estimates. RFA recently suggested that 150,000 people may have died in Hubei province. That's over 30 times the scientific estimates, which are typically around 4500. An excess mortality study finds about 4600 excess pneumonia deaths in Hubei province during the outbreak. A study in Nature estimates a CoVID-19 death rate of 36 per 100,000 inhabitants in Wuhan, which translates to approximately 4000 deaths in total in the city. These studies (and a host of others on seroprevalence: [16] [17] [18]) all paint a consistent picture of the overall level of mortality in Wuhan and Hubei province, in the range of 4500 deaths. The figures that RFA has been pushing, as high as 150,000, are just wild conspiracy theorizing. This is the sort of reporting that led to the RfC result that in-text attribution is appropriate for RFA in geopolitically sensitive subject areas. -Thucydides411 (talk) 08:21, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Do you have a WP:RS which also calls it "wild conspiracy theorizing" or is that your personal opinion? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:32, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

You don’t need an RS that directly calls a source unreliable to come to that conclusion in consensus. Cross referencing data from reliable sources clearly shows RFA inflating COVID deaths.

talk

) 17:51, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Exactly. It's kind of ridiculous to ask for a source that confirms that 150,000 is way higher than 4,500. RFA's "reporting" on the number of CoVID-19 deaths in China is so out of whack with the scientific consensus that there's no way to describe it other than as "disinformation". -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:04, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

As I noted on

talk

) 20:19, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Last spring, a number of Western media sources did indeed repeat Radio Free Asia's original, wild speculation about 40,000+ CoVID-19 deaths in Wuhan. That was not a shining moment in journalism history. Just recently, Radio Free Asia has pushed an even crazier estimate - 150,000 deaths. To my knowledge, none of those outlets have repeated this new claim that RFA is pushing. And this time around, there are multiple high-quality scientific studies of CoVID-19 mortality and serorprevalence available, which make it clear that 150,000 deaths is orders of magnitude too high. RFA is engaged in outright CoVID-19 disinformation here, and I don't know why you'd defend it. Finally, you left out a very important part of the RfC on Radio Free Asia - that in geopolitically sensitive areas, in-text attribution may be appropriate. That's an admission that there are problems in these areas, and RFA's CoVID-19 disinformation is a good illustration of that. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:34, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Can you point to WP:RS or a community consensus which say that RFA publishes disinformation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:37, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Can you stop badgering genuine concerns on reliability based on simple comparison of reported statistics with your insistent misunderstanding of when RS applies?

talk

) 20:44, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Asking for a source or community consensus which supports an extraordinary claim is not badgering, however repeatedly responding to questions which where not posed to you in an aggressive manner could be interpreted as such. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:46, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

The only extraordinary claim here is RFA's suggestion that 150,000 people died of CoVID-19 in Hubei province. What I've laid out is the fact that multiple scientific studies have found death tolls around 4,500. It's a fact that RFA is pushing a vastly inflated number. If a Chinese government media outlet were to push a death CoVID-19 death toll for the US that was inflated by a factor of 30 relative to scientific studies, I have no doubt that you would consider that disinformation. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:00, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Please AGF. As in this case I would require a WP:RS to have made a clear statement about that source publishing disinformation (remember that unlike misinformation disinformation requires intent). I take it you don’t have either a community consensus or reliable source to point to which makes such a statement? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:21, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Do you really need a reliable source to tell you that an outlet created under congressional mandate funded by the USFG whose expressed intent is clearly propaganda oriented in nature grossly inflated Covid deaths not just as a harmless mistake? Dogmatically interpreting wiki policy doesn’t change any of this.

talk

) 21:34, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

RFA's crazy claims about the CoVID-19 death toll in Wuhan/Hubei province are either:

1. Deliberate disinformation
2. Gross negligence and failure to do any basic fact-checking
3. Willful disregard for the truth

Take your pick. None of the options bode well for RFA's reliability though. -Thucydides411 (talk) 13:45, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Its not up to me or you to “pick," we only use whats been published by WP:RS. What do reliable sources say about this issue? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:00, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

We do NOT need an RS to blatantly say a source is unreliable for the sake of reliability discussions. This is an insanely dogmatic interpretation of WP:RS and is becoming absolutely ridiculous. We have sttistics from RS that directly contradict those of RFA and Thucydides411 has demonstrated this to you several times, yet you continue to deny it.

talk

) 15:14, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

We already have a consensus on reliability for RFA, the consensus is that they’re reliable. The extraordinary claim against consensus that they publish disinformation does actually require a source. If it "directly contradict” then a WP:RS will have noted that, if not then its not an issue for us. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:19, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

There is no such thing as an "extraordinary claim against consensus" and even in the reliability discussion their inflation of COVID deaths was discussed. This is not in contention, and the fact they were considered reliable despite this being acknowledged is (in my opinion) in great error.

talk

) 15:32, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Multiple scientific studies in reputable journals (including Nature), which I've cited above, all paint a consistent picture - that approximately 4,500 people died of CoVID-19 in Hubei province. In contrast, Radio Free Asia is pushing the claim that 150,000 people died of CoVID-19 in Hubei province. I don't think I need a reliable source to tell me that 150,000 is more than 30 times higher than 4,500. It's obvious that RFA is engaged in disinformation here. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:53, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@

Mikehawk10: Your insinuation that the imam Memet Jume's interviews may be some sort of "forced confession" is belied by some basic background information on the subject. For those that are unaware of the background, Memet Jume's father, Juma Tahir

, the previous imam of the Id Kah mosque, was viewed as being generally pro-government and was vocally opposed to what he saw as separatism and religious extremism. He was assassinated in 2014, very likely because he was viewed as pro-government and anti-separatist. His son, Memet Jume, is the current imam of the Id Kah mosque, and is the person whose interviews we are discussing here. There is nothing at all to suggest that Memet Jume is being forced to "confess" anything here, and his statements in the interviews are, in fact, generally in line with the views he and his father have expressed for decades.

Fundamentally, I don't think we should present this story in a one-sided manner. Radio Free Asia claimed that a plaque with religious text had been removed from the mosque. The imam of the mosque gave at least two video interviews in which he showed, on video, that the plaque had been moved to a different part of the mosque. We should not present RFA's claims (which now appear to have been perhaps exaggerated) in isolation, but leave out opposing claims by a high-profile individual involved in the story. It is fine to give in-text attribution to every statement: we can write, "In an interview with Xinhua, a Chinese state media organization, the imam of the Id Kah mosque stated that ...". Readers can make of that what they will, but we shouldn't hide it from them. -Thucydides411 (talk) 08:55, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• Unreliable and Undue as per Mikehawk and Horse's Eye above. Worth notinng that the imam is also a state official (imams are state-appointed and this imam is broadly a mouthpiece of the government), which might mean that state media is a reliable source, but only if we express clearly that he is a state spokesperson rather than voice of the local Muslim community. BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:06, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

What is unreliable here? The imam clearly gave the interview (it's on video). The claims he's making are not in any way extraordinary. In fact, the claim by Radio Free Asia that he replies to appears to be wrong or exaggerated (as the video shows, the plaque is still on display at the mosque).

this imam is broadly a mouthpiece of the government. I'd be careful with statements like that about a living person. I'd also point out that just because the imam is generally viewed as pro-government and anti-separatist, that's no reason to censor his statements. If we're going to start systematically censoring opinions of people in China who are viewed as generally supportive of the government, we're going to have quite a task on our hands. -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:22, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Re: he is a state spokesperson rather than voice of the local Muslim community. This is a rather simplistic view of the Muslim community in Xinjiang. Leaving aside the fact that there are also non-Uyghur Muslims in Xinjiang, the Uyghur Muslim community itself is divided. As a Reuters article about the assassination of Juma Tahir (the father of the imam interviewed by Xinhua) points out, there is significant conflict between supporters and opponents of the East Turkestan separatist movement, and among followers of what are seen as more extremist and more moderate religious movements. The imam interviewed by Xinhua, and his late father Juma Tahir, have opposed the separatist movement and what they see as extremist religious movements. To simplify this all down and say that the imam doesn't speak for anyone in the Muslim community, and then to say that we should therefore exclude his views from an article about the mosque he runs, just strikes me as incredibly simplistic. -Thucydides411 (talk) 10:16, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

I simply mean that as an appointee of the government and government official he is by definition a spokesperson of the government. This means that on the face of it, as Xinhua is also generally reliable for the views and positions of the Chinese government and its officials, Xinhua can be used - but our readers will not necessarily understand that the imam is an official of the government without us making that clear, so it's not clear-cut. If we don't consider him a government official, then he counts as BLP: Caution should be exercised in using this source, extremely so in case of... biographies of living people. But I think both these considerations are overshadowed by the fact that the Chinese government is a stakeholder in a dispute: For subjects where the Chinese government may be a stakeholder, the consensus is almost unanimous that Xinhua cannot be trusted to cover them accurately and dispassionately. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:59, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

I find it ironic that you raise BLP concerns in one breath, but in another breath refer to the imam as a mouthpiece of the government, an extremely insulting characterization. Whether you think he's being taken advantage of by state media, or whether you think he's some sort of government mouthpiece, the imam is a central figure in this story, and we shouldn't censor what he says about it.

When it comes to geopolitically-charged issues like China, Radio Free Asia has a checkered record and should only be used with caution and in-text attribution (see RFA's CoVID-19 disinformation, which I documented above). Yet we include their claim about the Id Kah mosque. We can't then simply omit a central figure's response to those claims. If we follow this sort of systematic policy of including US government media claims about geopolitically-charged issues in China, but censoring Chinese responses to those claims, we will end up with extremely biased articles. I think our readers are smart enough to see a statement such as, "In an interview with Xinhua, a Chinese state broadcaster, the imam of the Id Kah mosque stated that ..." and form their own intelligent opinions. But systematically concealing one set of views from them is not the way Wikipedia should go. -Thucydides411 (talk) 13:24, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

This appears to be inherently self contradictory. The imam is a state official and Xinhua is state media and therefore it is reliable for reporting the opinions of the state and its officials, yet it is undue for the purpose of reporting the state’s opinion in this article?

talk

) 14:22, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

OK, let me try again if this is difficult to understand. EITHER the imam is a government mouthpiece (for which Xinhua could potentially be a reliable source, but we'd need to be clear in the article that the imam is a government official) OR it's a BLP issue (so we should steer clear of Xinhua) - either way it's a bad source. If you are arguing he's central to the story and his words as reliably quoted by Xinhua are due, then the article needs to give a clear explanation of his government links. If you're arguing he's not a government mouthpiece, then we have to avoid the source. BobFromBrockley (talk) 08:19, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm having a hard time believing you have BLP concerns here when you repeatedly refer to the living person in question by the insulting epithet, government mouthpiece. -Thucydides411 (talk) 13:47, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

• While Xinhua should not be used for any Xinjiang-related facts, I think it's reliable for the position of Chinese government itself. Alaexis_¿question? 09:26, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• Unreliable per Mikehawk and others. PRC has a general media freedom issue and Xinhua can be considered a noticeable example of that. --► Sincerely: Solavirum 11:42, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

This is not about the reliability of Xinhua as a perennial source, this is about the reliability of Xinhua in the case of reporting on the PRC’s own opinions as given through an embassy.

talk

) 14:25, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• The
  WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Yes, you need to cite Xinhua and the Chinese imam of the Id Kah mosque at the article Id Kah Mosque
  .

Right now [19] we cite a US government-funded newsource [20] and "the U.S. Department of State’s platform for communicating American foreign policy worldwide" [21] to reproduce the allegation that the Mosque has been transformed into just a tourist attraction.

However, the imam of the actual mosque itself, Memet Jume, disputes this in multiple Chinese media sources [22][23][24]. Jume's father had earlier been the imam of the mosque, prior to his assassination [25].

The fact that

WP:TENDENTIOUS editing: "a manner of editing that is partisan, biased, or skewed taken as a whole." -Darouet (talk

) 14:52, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Please don’t make this personal, this may come as a shock to you but CGTN and China Daily are both deprecated. If WP:RS cover the Imam’s statement of course we can include it, but if no WP:RS cover the statement then there is simply no way to use it on wikipedia. I would also note that per

WP:BLP you cant use those sources to make claims about living people, even on a noticeboard. Horse Eye's Back (talk

) 16:20, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@

talk

) 17:47, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

You’re right, I misremembered the consensus (admittedly its an odd one which is extremely close to deprecation) "In this RfC, the community assesses the China Daily. The discussion below contains a lot of detail and nuance that doesn't lend itself to a pithy summary and, when future editors are making a tricky decision about the use of this source, they are encouraged to read the debate in full. There is much disagreement, and I am confident that if there were better sources for China, then the China Daily would be deprecated entirely; but a narrow majority of the community, just about amounting to a rough consensus, feels that there are so few good sources for China that it's needful for us to lower our bar. The community concludes that the China Daily may be used, cautiously and on the basis of good editorial judgment, as a source for the position of the Chinese authorities and the Chinese Communist Party; as a source for the position of the China Daily itself; as a source for facts about non-political events in mainland China, while noting that (a) the China Daily's interpretation of those facts is likely to contain political spin, and (b) the fact that the China Daily doesn't report something doesn't mean it didn't happen; and, with great caution, as a supplementary source for facts about political events of mainland China (supplementary meaning that the China Daily shouldn't normally be the sole source for these things). Editors agree that when using this source, context matters a great deal and the facts should be separated from the China Daily's view about those facts. It would be best practice to use plenty of in-text attribution as well as inline references when sourcing content to the China Daily.” Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:51, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

It’s hard not to “make things personal” when both users mentioned have actively participated in several China related articles for the sole purpose of eradicating any mention of a Chinese perspective (this entire reliability conflict started when @Mikehawk10 decided to remove the cited Xinhua content from the article simply because it was mentioned on another talk page as being in conflict with an article he created, and proceeded to also add extraordinary claims to it mentioned in few sources, not to mention when RFA was also mentioned on the talk page of the same article he immediately went and altered the lede of its article contrary to the ongoing talk page consensus). Furthermore, you continue to make fallacious use of wiki policy (such as calling into question the competence of and borderline hounding other users over the American usage of “lede” and repeatedly insisting that you somehow need an RS for every claim made in talk page discussions) and generally berate other users with a thick degree of sarcasm. When someone enters the conversation and rightly observes that there may be a significant bias given your preference towards western sources and quick removal of Chinese sources (even those not deprecated), they're not the ones "making it personal." Many people involved in conversations with you across multiple talk pages have stressed how hard you make it to assume good faith.

talk

) 18:03, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

The notion that I go around and edit for the sole purpose of eradicating any mention of a Chinese perspective throughout my editing on China-related articles is simply false; my goal in editing these articles is to improve them by adding appropriate sources and by removing content that is dubiously sourced and/or

undue weight

. Xinhua is not a reliable source with regards to topics in which the Chinese government is a stakeholder, and thus the tweet isn't covered by a reliable source simply because Xinhua has covered it, so I think I am reasonable in arguing that the tweet constitutes undue weight.

If you believe that there are behavioral issues here, feel free to take it to the appropriate noticeboard (

talk

) 20:09, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@

talk

) 17:47, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• Unreliable/propaganda for any claims related to Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, such as the claim under discussion. This is according to consensus in previous discussion linked at the top [26]. Is it reliable in general? Of course not, although it probably might be used for noncontroversial non-political info. My very best wishes (talk) 15:44, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Could you please explain how it is unreliable for reporting on a video that as clear as day was posted by the Chinese embassy and clearly shows the imam giving testimony?

talk

) 17:53, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• Unreliable in context. This is clearly the sort of thing there is a consensus against using Xinhua for. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:07, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

What do you mean by "unreliable"? There's a video of the interview. There's not even a shadow of a doubt that the imam said what Xinhua reports him to have said. So what specific factual claim are you saying is unreliable? -Thucydides411 (talk) 13:49, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Was the video of the interview published by a reliable source? If not its literally useless for our purposes. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:03, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

You have a very dogmatic and restricting view of wikipolicy if you believe that this is true.

talk

) 15:14, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

If you can point me to something that says we can use videos from unreliable sources I’m more than willing to expand my "dogmatic and restricting view of wikipolicy.” Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:22, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Taking a perennial source consensus (which is a general guideline) as the end all be all gospel for including information is already dogmatic.

talk

) 15:32, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Apologies for my behavior. I've gotten quite heated on this topic and similar ones and might need to take a break.

talk

) 15:52, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

I don’t think I am but I will respect your opinion. I will however note that per policy we are instructed to "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources.” Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:08, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support inclusion of the twitter video with attribution as a primary source as per
  WP:ABOUTSELF similarly says "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves." We should be careful when using primary sources, especially a clearly biased one like this, but in this situation they are allowed with attribution. In such a controversial example, the best thing to do would be to report what the primary source has to say on the subject. Zoozaz1 talk
  16:02, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
• Include. Xinhua is a reliable source for this type of information; it is one of the main news agencies in the country, and other reliable sources regularly rely on its reporting. In-text attribution is probably a good choice in this context, given the controversy. To include the Radio Free Asia claim but omit Xinhua's reporting on the issue would make a mockery of
  WP:NPOV. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs
  ) 06:58, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
• Unreliable Xinhua is under the control of the People's Republic of China, which routinely disappears people who hold the wrong opinion. Adoring nanny (talk) 03:17, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
• Include. Xinhua obviously carries water for the Chinese government, but RFA—constrained by extremely restrictive conditions on reporting in the region imposed by the Chinese government—made a straightforward, factual claim about a feature of a landmark, and Xinhua provided video evidence against that claim. Unlike interviews with factory workers and whatnot, it is much entirely plausible that someone chosen as the head of a major mosque (who undoubtedly underwent serious political vetting) is making that counterclaim absent coercion. We can never know for certain, but to leave out such a glaringly obvious counterexample to RFA's reporting cannot but appear non-neutral. If we reject Xinhua's inclusion here, there seems to be absolutely no reason that we could ever include anything stated by Chinese sources, even in cases where western reporting is factually incorrect, and there are no doubt examples where that is the case, even if the thrust of western reporting is overall more accurate than PRC propaganda. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 01:04, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
• Include in this case. Sate-controlled media is reliable for both the opinions of the controlling state and uncontroversial matters of fact. This seems to be a case where the opinion of western sources and the opinion of Chinese sources differ about a matter of fact (the location of a plaque), presenting only one of those opinions would lead to a biased article. There is also no credible reason to believe that the opinion of a generally pro-Government religious leader that paints the government in a favourable light has been misreported by a pro-government outlet, but even if they have that this is the pro-government opinion is directly relevant. Thryduulf (talk) 11:12, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
• Comment, I would like to note that since the opening of this discussion the moving of the plaque inside has been reliably sourced (to The Art Newspaper). RFA says the sign was removed from its place at the front of the building but does not specify what happened to it, Xinhua says the sign was removed from its place at the front of the building and moved inside for conservation/preservation, The Art Newspaper says it was moved inside. At least on the plaque I’m not actually seeing significant daylight between RFA, Xinhua, and The Art Newspaper. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:53, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

The significant daylight would be that RFA is claiming the plaque was removed for the purposes of nefarious repression, while The Art Newspaper claims it was just moved inside (but not why), and Xinhua claims it was moved inside due to preservation and erosion from weathering (which, for the record, is supported by photographs of the mosque pre-move and the video footage of the plaque outside the prayer hall now restored after the restoration). Paragon Deku (talk) 22:42, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Unreliable, but for reasons more nuanced than those presented by Horse Eye's Back and Mikehawk10. Many of the users opposing inclusion have made arguments based on the general reliability of Xinhua as evaluated by past community consensus. While past community consensus is important, there is always room for
  WP:OR. This is how Xinhua's lack of general reliability affects its specific reliability in relation to this article.--DaysonZhang (talk
  ) 20:52, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

This is starting to veer into conspiracy-theory territory. The imam in the video is not an actor. Memet Jume is reasonably famous, has given interviews to various media, and the person in the Xinhua video is indeed him. We can state that he gave the interview in Xinhua, a state news outlet. That would be fully appropriate, so that readers can judge for themselves how to view the imam's statement. However, there is no doubt that this is an interview with the real Memet Jume. -Thucydides411 (talk) 15:33, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Unreliable. I have seen way in my life too many staged videos in Communist government-run media. That said, the plaque incident seems way too trivial for inclusion in an encyclopaedia. Do we normally document when plaques are removed from buildings across the world? — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:06, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

  In most cases no, but when the movement of a plaque generates significant comment in multiple sources from multiple countries it's clear that this is not most cases. Other examples of our covering the moving and/or removal of plaques include Silent Sam, Jonas Noreika#Legacy and controversy and Statue of Jefferson Davis (Frankfort, Kentucky). Thryduulf (talk) 15:01, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Unreliable and should be deprecated together with China Daily. Reasons have been given in this previous discussion: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 323#Xinhua News Agency. Normchou ^💬 21:53, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
  • As has been noted multiple times above, this is not a discussion about the general reliability of the source, it is a question about the reliability for a very specific instance. China Daily is completely irrelevant here, as are calls for deprecation. Thryduulf (talk) 08:59, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
    • The mere fact that Xinhua is mentioned above is a sufficient condition for the "unreliable" categorization, as well as for a renewed call for deprecation, regardless of any very specific instance. What else would Wikipedians expect from a propaganda outlet? Independent news reporting? Normchou ^💬 21:45, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
      • What else would Wikipedians expect from a propaganda outlet? accurate reporting of the views of the organisation that it publishes propaganda for, accurate reporting of facts that support and/or are neutral regarding the viewpoint espoused by the propaganda, and similar. The publication has not been judged "unreliable" or even "generally unreliable" it has been judged to publish accurate reporting in some areas, biased reporting in other areas and unreliable reporting in yet others - There is no consensus for applying any one single label to the whole of the agency.. All this means that there are occasions, like this one, where we need to examine how reliable it is for a specific claim, trying to re-litigate the reliability of the whole publication (which there is no evidence has changed since the recent discussion) is at best pointless and at worst a bad faith attempt to obstruct consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 09:42, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
        • In addition to not
          WP:SOAP. Normchou ^💬
          04:37, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

          Perhaps you should stop thinking this is some sort of conflict between

          you and them and maybe objectively think about what Thryduulf said? You say he does not assume good faith, yet in the same sentence you accuse him of peddling for a "propaganda outlet and its overarching goal", all the while ignoring the good point he made. As I see it, you have not presented any issues you have with the article presented, your only problem is that it comes from a propaganda outlet. If Xinhua made an article calling the world round would you start believing otherwise? CPCEnjoyer (talk

          ) 12:25, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

          @Normchou: Firstly you will note that my comment about faith was one end of a range of possibilities, but if you feel attacked by that then perhaps you should examine what your motives are? As for the source, if what they are reporting is accurate why would we not include it? By definition any propaganda outlet must be a reliable source for the views those who are espousing the propaganda want promoted (because to be otherwise requires either editorial independence from those setting the propaganda message or such gross incompetence that even a student newspaper editor would be sacked). Thryduulf (talk) 13:59, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

      • Despite my insistence several times that this is about a SPECIFIC usage of the source, a large swathe of editors seem to have seen the word Xinhua, dropped an "unreliable" without a second thought, and left the discussion based only on perennial discussions that have taken place before. Overall this and the globe discussion below have greatly diminished my faith in the process as it stands. Paragon Deku (talk) 01:46, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
• I support inclusion, I feel that people who respond to queries like this should take more time to evaluate the actual proposition and not immediately jump to conclusions. I have noticed some people also claim that the person was coerced and that it is a staged video without any proof and somehow believe that they have made a constructive argument. You could make this baseless accusation against anything that contradicts your views. I do not see a reason to not include this article, especially if the reported situation is verifiable by anyone. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 16:07, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
• I support for inclusion, per previous discussion. I am poor in English, so I will quote opinions of someone else to prove my opinion. In my opinion, for official facts and most news in China and abroad, Xinhua is generally reliable. Xinhua News Agency, covering a wider range of news, is cited and quoted in a wide variety of other reliable sources. Xinhua's job is to tell facts, not to propoganda. Even among news organizations sponsored by the government, there has been strong competition for years due to China's market economy. If you make mistakes in your reports, you will be ridiculed by readers.

• --悔晚斋 (talk) 02:24, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• Include on an
  WP:UNDUE. Jumpytoo Talk
  20:40, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
• Include - there has been extensive discussion about the innate (and understandably) anti-China bias that english-language sources have, and previous RfCs have established that we need to be particularily careful not to allow that bias to distort our own writing on article space, in particular, the need to include the attributed views of the Chinese state. Including the Xinhua rebuttal, with a clear attribution that it is from Xinhua would accomplish that goal. BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 19:05, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
• Generally reliable, but that doesn't matter here This dispute appears to have originated with blatantly
  WP:TENDENTIOUS editing by anti-Chinese (or perhaps anti-Beijing or anti-CPC) users questioning an easily verifiable fact because said fact didn't agree with their POV. They used the Chinese government's stake in one of the cited sources as a pretext to make a stink about it. This is barely even a content dispute, and certainly is not one that should be allowed to forever influence how we cite this or that particular source. Hijiri 88 (聖やや
  ) 08:52, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

I am sorry, I have to  ask for Banaphar page, not for Udal of Mahoba.