Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 357

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

@S Marshall:, I think your closing was sound. I have just a small question for clarity. You said, "Where using TAC as a source, it is mandatory to provide both an inline citation and in-text attribution.". Is this meant to apply to cases where the author is considered to be an expert/noted voice/etc. As an example, assume Mr Smith is a well known subject matter expert. In an opinion article written by Mr Smith and published in TAC, Mr Smith says "X". When citing Mr Smith's view do we need to say it was from/published in TAC? "Mr Smith, in an analysis published in TAC said X [cite TAC]" or is it acceptable to say "Mr Smith said X [cite TAC]". The difference being in the former case we state in the article that this information was published in TAC. Note, if Mr Smith was not a noted subject matter expert, was not known outside of publications in TAC, but instead was say just a writer at TAC then I would assume it is critical to say TAC. My question thus is did you mean the TAC must be mentioned even in cases where the person offering the opinion is independently notable? Springee (talk) 13:11, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• "Mr Smith, writing in The American Conservative, said: 'XYZ'."—S Marshall T/C 14:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

We have an article about a Wikipedian, Seedfeeder, which looks like it's about to pass GA. The article relies almost entirely on unreliable sources and churnalism based on one of those unreliable sources. Cracked.com wrote about Seedfeeder in 2013 (unreliable), then Gawker (unreliable) wrote about him in 2014. Then a few other publications picked up the Gawker piece without adding anything (one of them has a quote from a sexologist, which is good, but that's the only thing I could see that wasn't already in the Gawker article). That churnalism of the Gawker piece (which includes another unreliable source, Metro), along with the two original unreliable sources, constitutes our sourcing for the article. There are two others: Vice and NY Mag which are brief mentions with almost no information.

So here's the question for RSN: The Gawker entry at RSP says that it's unreliable, and that When another reliable source quotes information from Gawker, it is preferable to cite that source instead. But what are best practices for doing so? If a news aggregator like HuffPost covers a story in an unreliable source, is that sufficient to base an article on? Do many sources which all come from the same unreliable source add up to something we can promote to GA?

Disclosure: I recently nominated the article for deletion based on these reasons, and it was overwhelmingly kept. That blew my mind a bit, but that the sourcing is apparently enough to promote to GA indicates that the misunderstanding must be on my end, hence this thread. This'll be the last thread I open on the subject. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:43, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

The 2nd AfD discussed exactly this point, and concluded, in my view rightly, that the multi-source discussion with independent opinions about Seedfeeder established his notability, even though we'd not rely on those sources for news. If there is a general point here, it is that a source may be relied on to be expressing its own authors' opinions, publicly stated, even if the source is no use for news. By the way, I find the title of this thread one-sided, even inflammatory, something that really should be avoided even if policy doesn't forbid it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:54, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

The question of notability was decided at the AfD, yes. I think they got it wrong, and that it's unlikely a random topic that wasn't about a bit of fun Wikipedia culture would've been kept based on the same sources, but that's done -- I don't plan on going to DRV. My question here is about standards for reliable sourcing in articles. At AfD, it is at least hypothetical that additional sourcing exists somewhere, but with GAN we're looking at the sources presently cited in the article. And I'm curious to get opinions about how to understand a collection of sources that are typically considered reliable (or at least not unreliable) when they're all based on the same unreliable source. I've slightly reworded the heading, but would be open to other suggestions for how to do so while retaining the central question. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:17, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Shouldn't the article get credit for hilarity though, as a breath of humour-laced fresh air?

Iskandar323 (talk

) 06:42, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• The quality and type of sourcing needed to keep an article at AFD is very different from the quality and type of sourcing needed to promote an article to GA status. Blueboar (talk) 14:07, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

That would imply a limbo zone between delete-as-not-notable and promote-as-well-written, in which an article was admitted to be worth keeping, aka sufficiently-sourced, but held to be too flaky in some undefinable non-GACriteria sense *ever* to be promoted. That cannot be right. There is no gap between GA Criterion #2 and the rule on notability. If the sources available are unreliable then the article should not exist. (If the available sources have not been cited in the article, then of course it can fail to become a GA, but it can be improved simply by adding the sources; but that's not the issue here.) Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:19, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• I don't understand how this article could pass
  WP:GACR #2 since most of the factual information in the article (i.e. the "Work" section) is sourced to sources that we have determined to be generally unreliable. And I don't understand either Chiswick Chap's point about unreliable sources being used for sourcing their authors' opinions: in this particular case, the factual section has 10 refs, 5 of which are Gawker, and 1 of which is Metro, so these sources are not used solely to source a person's subjective opinion. I won't express an opinion on the AfD discussion. JBchrch talk
  14:26, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

The key point is that if we agree that the two AfDs have reached the right decision, then "not understand"ing my point is to dip out of the core of the discussion. "Generally unreliable" is, everyone who has !voted to keep the article must have felt, a very different proposition for news, where we rightly shy away from sources that do not practice careful journalistic fact-checking, and opinion, where a site has a perfect right to state what it thinks about an issue, relying on what it has seen and heard. If a tabloid newspaper's cook, to cite a recent instance, says that an 18th century cookbook is admirable, then that is their reasonable opinion, and that has nothing whatever to do with their "news" department's inability to fact-check. I think Wikipedia needs to grow up and recognise this difference, which is at the moment a blatant failure to adopt a rational policy. In other words, "generally unreliable" is far too wide-angle a scattergun. It should be restricted to saying that for news such as of political actions, the source is not to be used. If a tabloid describes cookery, or sport, or books, and states its views on those things, it is just like any other source - it's a (nationally) published opinion, and we should be free to use such things without drama. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:11, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

If your point is that we can used tabloids that have been determined to be generally unreliable in order to source factual claims about cookery, sports, books or arts, then this is simply not the current project-wide consensus as far as I know. If your point is that we should consider generally unreliable publications as reliable sources for the subjective opinions of some authors, then that is already reflected in

WP:RSOPINION. As to the AfD's discussion: The first discussion took place before consensus was reached regarding Metro and Gawker. The second discussion should be taken with a enormous grain of salt because everyone there expressed a substantial degree of doubt about what they were doing, including all the keep votes. This was one of those one shot, ad hoc judgement calls that shouldn't be used to draw broader conclusions about policy and consensus. JBchrch talk

15:41, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

• GA is not very well attended-to and lets through some awful rubbish with terrible sourcing. In this case, it's a BLP - how on earth are these crappy sources considered material to write a Wikipedia BLP from? - David Gerard (talk) 15:18, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Rather than histrionics, please study the reasons given at AfD (in which I wasn't involved), and the lists of additional sources on the article's talk page. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:21, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• WP:ABOUTSELF, which allows even the worst/blacklisted sources to be used, with caveats, in the biography of the person, and nowhere else. Even then, the notability of the person described in that biography must be established by RS, not unreliable ones. Then certain details in that biography can use content from primary unreliable sources written or spoken by the subject ("about self"), such as an interview, to clarify facts about the subject. Maybe date of birth and such like. The biography should still be primarily based on RS. So AfD that article right away. Notability may be enough to have a biography here, but that should be based on RS. -- Valjean (talk
  ) 16:01, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

  Wikipedia's changed a lot in the last years, hasn't it? Procedures such as AfD are heavy-handed and use significant amounts of community time and I question whether going straight to AfD due to poor sourcing is always warranted over, say, use of the {{notability}} tag or {{More citations needed}}. I am sometimes a deletionist, but hardcore always-delete deletionism looks like unhinged fanatical devotion to one particular aspect of Wikipedia principles to the detriment of the rest. MarshallKe (talk) 16:16, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

  Is this connected to the subject at hand, or a tangential response to Valjean? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:27, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

  I think your question is a false dichotomy. Why do you ask? MarshallKe (talk) 16:42, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

  As I mentioned in the original post, I just recently nominated it for deletion (and someone else did a few years ago) and it was kept. Having done so, and having opened this thread, I don't feel like it would be appropriate for me to take any further action. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:27, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

• Quick comment: Thanks to User:Rhododendrites for starting this discussion. I was wondering if this would happen, back when I saw another editor nominate the entry for Good status. I'm currently traveling and don't plan to prioritize this article or follow the ongoing discussions closely, but I just want to point out, there are some additional sources about the subject which are not currently used in the article. Some are posted on the talk page. I just want to make sure these are also being taken into account when editors are discussing notability and which sources to use. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:29, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
• One of the long-standing Wikipedia wrinkles is the tension between notability and viability. Sometimes a topic will surely survive AfD, but it's impossible to write anything decent about it.
  talk
  ) 17:23, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

  There shouldn't be any such tension, because

  WP:WHYN connects notability to viability. However, in the sorts of cases you're likely thinking of, it's common that the article some editors want to write isn't viable. One might have to write things like "Foo was the subject of a media scandal in 2017" rather than than "Foo is a profitable product manufactured by Big Corp". WhatamIdoing (talk

  ) 21:31, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

  It's more the case of the fringe thing that gets a fair amount of press coverage relaying the "story" (miraculous cancer cure, alien abduction or psychic prediction, say) but there are no sources offering rational context. These are arguably notable (coverage in multiple newspapers!) but NPOV/GEVAL directs us to omit fringe information that can't be respectably contextualized. So it's all a bit sticky.

  talk

  ) 06:34, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• I'm going to go out on a limb here and make an observation on evaluating sources. I have discussed this issue in the past with an admin who disagrees with me that WP should have higher standards of evaluating sources, but here goes. Evaluating a source is not simply a matter of looking at who hosts it. It is about context. Who produced it, when/where, and why are all critical. Who should entail looking at both who wrote it and who curated it. When/where are critical to understand what materials will be available. For example, publishers were far more likely to limit what was published in the pre-internet age to broad topics, because of the expense of publishing, thus many topics were un- or under-represented and appeared only in specialist publications. As to why, there can be acceptable reasons for someone to publish in say a blog, rather than an academic journal, if for example the writer lives in a place where the cost of publishing in prohibitive, the blog is curated by a museum or academic institution, etc. Primary sources, which were produced to record birth death, marriage, etc. by government entities are not unreliable, nor is it OR to use them to document a date or place an event happened.

Given that, and looking at the specific case cited above, I would say that the sources fail on two counts, not just is the curator generally unreliable, but the authors — Andy Cush, Siam Goorwich and Cyriaque Lamar — who tend to write about current pop culture trends, do not appear in RS which cover their contributions other than pieces written by them (i.e. self-promotion). I find no coverage of either Cush or Goorwich and only 2 brief mentions in RS referring to Lamar's workp 35p 108 in Google scholar. Neither Cush nor Lamar appears to have published in either academic sources nor media that is upheld to journalistic standards. Goorwich has published in Cosmopolitan and The Guardian, but the majority of the work that I find is in media similar to Cush and Lamar. I cannot even find a CV or other document that would allow a more robust evaluation of their writing. Thus, the sources fail in establishing that who is RS. When/where post internet subject if notable should have far more coverage in actual RS if indeed the work is notable, even given the niche nature of the subject. I would not use them and do not believe that they meet the standards for a GA. SusunW (talk) 17:29, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

SusunW, thank you for looking rationally at the sources and their authors. It's clear from that analysis that the sources cannot be taken as usable either on grounds of the media that contain them, or on grounds of their authors' notability. Without other sources, the article is not notable and should be deleted. I'll close the GAN for this reason, and after that the article should be taken to AfD with SusunW's reasoning, plus the fact that better sources don't exist. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:18, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Chiswick Chap Thanks. One additional note, there may well be other sources which are reliable and do indicate notability. Different search engines might produce different results, as would for example searches of google.com, google.mx, google.de. I did not search for additional sourcing, only evaluated what was in the article. For the record, I am unlikely to participate in any AfD discussion on any topic. SusunW (talk) 14:58, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I do not recommend nominating for deletion again without searching for and assessing in detail other coverage which is not currently used in the article. There are more sources to consider than only the 9 currently used as citations. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:04, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• Just noting that some new sources have come up (thanks Blue Rasberry (talk)) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Seedfeeder#Non-English_sources

• Consensus reached? - This discussion has been open for a while now and has slowed down. I think it is safe to say we have reached consensus on the following: ASPI is a somewhat reliable source within its area of expertise but should only be used with in-text attribution. If no one raises any objections, I would be fine with the discussion being closed with this as the outcome. Vladimir.copic (talk) 22:45, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

hi Vladimir.Copic given the controversies surrounding the source and what appears to be fairly heated discussions on the article’s talk page, I think that an administrator’s close is necessary here to ensure the validity and integrity of the closure result is ensured and protected. Estnot (talk) 12:48, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Option 1 - this source in my reading meets the two key criteria to be included as a generally reliable source as laid out in

WP:GREL

. The first is that “editors show consensus that the source is reliable in most cases on subject matters in its areas of expertise.” Nearly all of the votes for option 2 appear to misread this criterion to mean the source must be reliable on all subject matters but nevertheless do not dispute that the source is reliable and usable on subject matters of its own expertise. They also appear to misunderstand the scope of what counts as reliable by limiting it to the production of facts (ie factual reporting) when as per wp:reputable it is much more expansive and extends to include the production of opinion. The second criterion is that the source needs to have a “reputation for fact-checking, accuracy, and error-correction.” This is confirmed as other editors have pointed out by its widespread usage by other generally reliable sources and the absence of criticism by generally reliable sources of its work (and, arguably, by the abundance of criticism by generally unreliable sources of its work)

The majority of the criticism is directed at the think tank’s funding sources as a reason to downgrade the reliability of the source but there are a few problems I find with this argument:

a) there are many reliable sources on the perennially reliable sources list which are also funded by governments.

b) the fact that the think tank has government donors does not make it a “specific factor unique to the source in question” which is how most editors who object to the source characterize its funding and is a key criterion for a source to be included as a marginally reliable source (WP:MREL)

c) the choice of which funders to focus on is arbitrary and disproportionate

d) no hard evidence of donor influence has been given

e) due weight consideration requirement for generally reliable sources would still be in effect of which consideration of funding issues would naturally be part

Finally I think it would be useful to point out two non-funding related considerations against those who think ASPI qualifies as a marginally reliable source

a) there has been no discussion of which cases the source can be used, apart from a few passing remarks and in what seems to be a contravention of a key requirement for determining whether a source is marginally reliable.

b) arguing that the source requires in-text attribution is neither a substitute for the “case-by-case discussion requirement” of wp:mrel nor grounds for automatic disqualification from inclusion as a generally reliable source as some editors imply. Wp:partisan makes clear that a generally reliable source are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective and that is amply reflected in the great number of partisan sources which are considered as generally reliable on the wp:rsp listEstnot (talk) 12:48, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• @Tayi Arajakate: I think you may have substituted your own opinion for consensus in part of the close, for example the US State Department was mentioned by only one person so doesn’t really seem to belong. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  It's not my own opinion, I didn't know what ASPI was or that it existed before it was brought to this board so I've no real insight into it. There is a general agreement among the participants, regardless of their !votes that it has a strong bias but most comments aren't very clear about what the bias is, so I picked it out of a comment which was uncontested during the discussion and explicitly specified it. Since, you seem to be saying that US State Department shouldn't be in there, I've removed it now. I thought this was a largely uncontroversial discussion since most editors are more or less saying the same thing with minor differences in what they emphasise but apparently not? If anyone wants to contest the close itself, they can open a discussion at

  WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. Tayi Arajakate _Talk

  19:56, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@

WP:RS). Its area of expertise should at least be expanded to include "Asia" or "China." - GretLomborg (talk

) 19:39, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This has been running over a month, and there is a consistent and overwhelming consensus to deprecate Republic TV. Editors cite hoaxes, fake news, fabrication, misinformation and conspiracy theories. - David Gerard (talk) 17:14, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

---

Should

deprecated? Tayi Arajakate _Talk

11:53, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Survey (Republic TV)

• Deprecate - For an example of nonsense peddled by this channeled, check this news. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:33, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
• Deprecate Despite being a possibility of genuine news related to entertainment, including but not limited to films, the blatant hoaxes, fake news, fabricated misinformation, and what not, that the organization publishes is quite rampant that makes it dangerous for us here — DaxServer (talk to me) 17:33, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose deprecation, I think that “generally unreliable” is still appropriate. Much like similar news orgs most of the blatant stuff seems to be contained within talk shows not within hard news segments. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:49, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

  Horse Eye's Back, I don't think that's accurate. All sorts of claims are made on their talk shows but the same claims are replicated all across their website and well within their "hard news". See for example, a search on Alt News produces pages after pages on fabrications and includes both talk shows and news stories. I'll try to tabulate a more comprehensive list on them, along with secondary sourcing once I get bit more time. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 23:11, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

  I see coverage of errors in that link, what I don’t really see is fabrications... Being wrong and making a lot of mistakes makes you unreliable, being purposefully wrong makes you deprecatable. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:55, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

  Love Jihad [30], Corona Jihad [31], how Sushant Singh Rajput was murdered [32], etc. Tayi Arajakate _Talk

  00:30, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

  It does seem likely that there are fabrications there, but again thats not the same thing as a source actually saying that they knowingly fabricated a story. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:53, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

  If I were fabricating something, I wouldn't publicly agree or give a hint of it that I'm fabricating. It is upto other to fact check and investigate if I did it this time or if there's a pattern. If there's a pattern, then that would mean I intentionally do it, even if the fact checkers don't say so? — DaxServer (talk to me) 08:05, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

  How does one unknowingly fabricate stories? That too repeatedly and consistently in favor of a particular position. By the way, Affective Politics of Digital Media: Propaganda by Other Means (pp. 226–239) which is linked above for Love Jihad, does say that they are deliberately pushing the conspiracy theory. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 08:21, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• Deprecate, considering its history of fabrications including multiple conspiracy theories, it'd be irresponsible to allow citations to this outlet to persist. In my mind, its equivalent to sources like Brietbart and Swarajya. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 23:32, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

  Theres nothing magical about deprecation, we don’t auto remove deprecated sources... Citations to this outlet will still exist if we deprecate, someone is still going to have to go through one by one and evaluate whether its appropriate. Theres also no need for the source to be deprecated to start doing that, generally unreliable is enough to remove a source in >90% of use cases. If you’re concerned about the persistence of citations to this outlet then get at it dog! You’ve got no-one to blame but yourself. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:00, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

  I know what deprecation is and I'd prefer that a stronger consensus exists for removing them en masse before doing so, considering the number of articles they are cited on. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 00:32, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

  Deprecation is *not* consensus for removing them en-mass, each one would still need to be done individually and with due care. I have begun assessing our use cases, no need to wait when we already have a clear consensus of unreliability. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:53, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

  Sure exceptional circumstances may exist so each case needs to be considered individually but otherwise it is de facto that. Most questionable sources don't have widespread use so this doesn't really matter but that's not the case here. The edit filter would also be useful to discourage future cites to it. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 08:14, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• Deprecate Known purveyor of fake news and conspiracy theories. There's really no point in ever using this source. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 07:25, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose deprecation (keep Unreliable). No sources provided that this outlet knowingly publishes fake news a la Daily Mail. The initiator should explain why the current status (unreliable) is problematic (not just that this source is used 1000s of times). Happy to change my vote if a proper case is made for deprecation. Alaexis_¿question? 17:48, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

  Alaexis, if you are asking for examples which show that they deliberately publish fake news a la Daily Mail, then I did link them in my discussion with HEB above. I probably should have provided some examples in the discussion section below but anyways I will bring up some new ones, for example this where they took Rahul Gandhi and Asaduddin Owaisi's objection against a rule mandating the national anthem to be played before every film in cinema halls and turned it into them claiming that people shouldn't stand up for the national anthem, or this where they took an old photo, appropriated it as their own and claimed that they are bringing exclusive pictures from the Kashmir conflict. I don't know these can be regarded as being simple mistakes. This is just the tip of iceberg as well. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 18:57, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

  Okay, it does look like a trash source. And why is the current designation (unreliable, meaning that "Outside exceptional circumstances, the source should normally not be used, and it should never be used for information about a living person.") not sufficient to remove contentious information sourced to it? Alaexis_¿question? 19:09, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

  Alaexis, the misinformation extends beyond contentious topics (through churnalism and sensationalism without any regard for fact checking) as well, there is no real way for us to tell whether something that can only be sourced to them is reliable information so an across the board removal is needed while it's also being continuously added as a citation and there is no strong consensus (i.e, in the form of an RfC) on it at present. Deprecation through a formal RfC would help us make the process easier, as in prevent it from getting bogged down in multiple individual disputes and improve awareness. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 19:28, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

  Again, unreliable sources should not be used normally, so it should be an easy to remove it. I see that now most of references to it are in articles about various media personalities. Is it unreliable there too? Is there really a widespread problem with this source? Alaexis_¿question? 05:34, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

  Well, it is an unreliable source being used normally and deprecation as a process exists to discourage continued use like this. Most of the references aren't solely in articles about media personalities, they include all kinds of topics from sports and films to protests and conflicts. And yes it certainly should not be used for articles on media personalities or for any BLP. For instance after Sushant Singh Rajput's suicide, the channel (along with Times Now) pushed a conspiracy theory that he was murdered and went after people like Deepika Padukone, Rhea Chakraborty and various others throwing accusations of drug abuse, conspiracy to murder, etc against them. (see [33], [34], [35], [36]) Tayi Arajakate _Talk 12:26, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

• Deprecate, and purge citations. Demonstrating that there's knowing fabrication requires access to internal deliberations that we do not have; what we do have is evidence that RW has stuck to its fabricated stories even after obvious evidence of their being false became public [37], [38], not to mention numerous instances of egregious fake news with massive real-world impacts [39], [40]. If RW is used for contentious information, it obviously should not be; if it's used for uncontentious information, should be possible to replace it with a superior source. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:33, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
• Deprecate, and purge citations. Known to give communal twist to regular news^[1], conduct Trial by media^[2], harass people based on speculation^[3][4].--coolk (talk) 22:55, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
• Deprecate. The evidence presented for deprecation is convincing and so far undisputed. Of particular note is that this unreliability is broad, and not limited to a definable area, and as such I believe deprecation is our only option. Summoned by the bot; unclear to which RfC, and so drew the short straw BilledMammal (talk) 12:50, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
• Deprecate, full of conspiracy theories.Nyx86 (talk) 15:22, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
• Deprecate as the evidence above is convincing for deprecation showing wide areas of unreliability. --Kathy262 (talk) 19:45, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose deprecation - there seems no actual issue here, no actual need for an extreme step of deprecation. It is being productively used at a few thousand points and has not been part of many RSN or local debates, and no bad content is shown as under debate. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:28, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
• Deprecate. Full of political bias, fake news, conspiracy theories, etc etc etc. Peter Ormond 💬 14:15, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
• Deprecate, and purge citations. Spreads ridiculous conspiracy theories that sound like copypastas (remember when they accused insects of being Pakistani terrorists?^[5]), and thrives on sensationalism, hyper-nationalism and communal conflict. Cipher21 (talk) 15:56, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

References

1. ^ "- Republic World".
2. ^ https://www.republicworld.com/tags/rhea-chakraborty
3. ^ https://twitter.com/aarifshaah/status/1298949663307886592?lang=en
4. ^ "Deepika Padukone Enroute Goa Airport, Republic Tracks as She Departs for Mumbai to Join NCB Probe". YouTube.
5. ^ "Indian anchor blames Pakistan for sending 'terrorist locusts'". YouTube.

Discussion (Republic TV)

I am starting this RfC on the basis of a query at the

Love Jihad conspiracy theory, and other fabrications and factually incorrect information." Despite this it is still being used as a citation in over 1,800 articles   at present. Tayi Arajakate _Talk

11:50, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@WhinyTheYounger:

I'd like to start the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources discussion for Caixin.

Which of the following best describe the work of Caixin:

• Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting;
• Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply;
• Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting; or
• Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated.

WhisperToMe (talk) 16:30, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

My view: Caixin based on hearsay seems to be generally reliable but limited by the fact the PRC government has authority over it. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:32, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1/2, it's mostly generally reliable, but for anything closely related to the Chinese government I would exercise caution. I assume btw you're referring to both language versions of their news sites, caixin.com and caixinglobal.com? My understanding is that Caixin is broadly independent and free from government co-option; they have for instance criticized the government's censorship and published an investigation questioning the official COVID-19 death count in Wuhan. Western media sources also seem to view them favourably and describe them as reliable, e.g. the NYT described them as an influential and respected news organization, and the
  WP:DUE concerns as it pertains to the CPC, as while they probably won't publish things that are factually inaccurate, censorship in the country may prevent them from fairly representing all sides of an issue. They would otherwise appear to me to be generally reliable. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk
  ) 17:43, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2: Additional Considerations Apply. Caixin is, unquestionably, one of the most reliable sources based within mainland China. However, it is based within mainland China. As a result, the company is state-affilited and subject to state censorship (though it has also at times publicly told official censors to more or less buzz off, which is exceptionally rare in China). Much like The Straits Times, which is Singapore’s paper of record, we need to be cautious when using Caixin's news reporting within the field of politics or for extraordinary claims. For mainland Chinese media, this would be especially so for coverage of Chinese domestic politics or topics that are politically sensitive in China. For ordinary reporting on the activity of businesses, I think it would be perfectly fine to use with attribution.
• The source has historically engaged in partnerships with a number of highly respected publications, although these partnerships have raised some eyebrows. —
  talk
  ) 18:05, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

  Would they really need attribution for e.g. routine finance/business reporting? I don't think there's reason to generally worry about the factual accuracy of their news, and if it's not an issue they might be censored away from fairly covering both sides of, I wouldn't see a problem using them without attribution. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 06:13, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

  If they're the only one providing a fact, I'd generally attribute. I don't see a need to attribute "X business was founded in Y year and launched P product in Q quarter of 2020" or those types of facts that are unlikely to be contested. It's more for the reporting of "X company may have misled consumers and committed fraud" that I'd prefer to see attributed. "Ordinary" was the wrong choice of a word. —

  talk

  ) 04:04, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2. Caixin is probably generally reliable for factual accuracy in the facts it does report and general news, but any publications subject to the jurisdiction of totalitarian regimes without free press guarantees should be approached with substantial caution on any matters those regimes may be sensitive about. Since they may in those instances be subject to both self-censorship and in some cases outright censorship, they should not generally be treated as independent or objective on those issues. In this case, any reporting in Caixin about subjects which may be of concern to the Chinese government should be approached with that in mind, and confirmation looked for by reliable sources not subject to Chinese jurisdiction. If Caixin is the only source reporting something it should generally be attributed. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:55, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
• High end of Option 2 - I find it very useful in practice as a financial paper, but with considerations and attribution above - David Gerard (talk) 20:01, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 For factual reporting, not opinion or perspective. It does seem a shame to reduce the credibility of an outlet without an exact article or documented trend of reporting in mind. However the Chinese government has made no secret of the restrictions it places on the media. If Caixin is the only place we could get the information I would be happy for us to use it. My problem is more with what they don't say, then what they do. Dushan Jugum (talk) 20:52, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 Unless editors can provide actual specific evidence of the Chinese government manipulating content produced by Caixin, that they are based in China is not inherently enough to downgrade them. They produce reliable, factually accurate content by all accounts. Obviously the normal considerations apply for opinion pieces and such. BSMRD (talk) 17:58, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

  The government has deleted an article of theirs previously. It would be incorrect to say that they "manipulate" content that Caixin produces, but censorship of their work has occurred, though I do think some of the participants in this discussion have overstated the degree to which censorship does/will happen. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 05:50, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

  An article being deleted after publication doesn't necessarily affect reliability. Articles are pulled off in many jurisdictions for a variety of reasons, often following a Court order, and I never heard about that action being used to discredit the reliability of the affected media outlet. MarioGom (talk) 18:48, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

  That really depends on the reason of the pulling off. When a court order found that the material in question was defamatory, that rather weighs against the source. If an article is pulled because of govt/business interference against media criticising the institutions in question, it means it hasn't got complete editorial independence, which is also a reason to be more cautious*. It doesn't matter if there was an outcry after that.

  *what is meant here is not interference due to exposure of state secrets, which is not covered by the freedom of press, but rather pre-emptory censorship or govt interference in matters which are not normally sensitive/classified. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 19:14, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1/2 Caixin is the gold standard for business news in China, something like FT. It's obviously constrained by the Chinese govt censorship, and that is something that has to be kept in mind. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:24, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1/2: It is unfortunate, but on occasion when considering a sources reliability we need to consider the context that they operate in, and in the case of Caixin, that means we need to consider them in the context of the fact that they operate in China, and the environment in China is, to put it mildly extremely problematic. The primary consequence of this is that Caixin will have gaps in their reporting; and while this does cause issues in regards to due weight, I feel that these issues are too nebulous for us to consider and rule on.
• What we do need to consider is the chance that they have to alter the stories they do issue in such a manner to comply with Chinese censorship, though it is important to balance this with the fact that no outright inaccuracies have been identified.
• Considering all of this, I believe the our best option is to consider them compromised on topics broadly relating to China or Chinese interests; on these topics, if a less compromised source cannot be found, they should be used only with attribution. Further, if other reliable sources conflict with them on these topics, weight should be given to these other sources. Summoned by the bot; unclear to which RfC, and so drew the short straw BilledMammal (talk) 12:33, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 with the only caveats being for obviously sensitive issues like the The Three Ts etc., which are unlikely to be covered in depth anyways. Particularly for matters of finance, Caixin is a gold standard. The concerns of censorship and Party influence, of course, are warranted, but those concerns are materially different than they would be for a fully state- or Party-operated outlet like Xinhua or People’s Daily—the primary worry here is of omission, it seems, rather than falsification. While serious, this presents much less of a problem in the context of an article where other sources can provide missing context. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 15:55, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 0 Invalid RFC - this should not be listed at all, because
  WP:RSP is for “sources whose reliability and use on Wikipedia are frequently discussed.” Caixin is not frequently discussed or used, and since it is a Chinese language site behind a paywall it will not see use as a cite. Cheers Markbassett (talk
  ) 05:52, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
• Option 0 Not appropriate for listing at RSP (as the reliability of this source is not a perennial issue). That said, I have no problem with continuing to discuss the source’s reliability/unreliability in a non-RSP focused way. (No opinion on that). Blueboar (talk) 12:48, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 (updated) and Inappropriate RfC: RSP has gotten completely out of control, and we're being asked to override context-based reliability and essentially give entire publications thumbs up or thumbs down. I can understand using RSP to flag the most egregious of sources that make up stories out of whole cloth, but these threads long ago descended into discussions about whether editors like a particular source, typically based on the overall political tone of its reporting. That being said, if Caixin is going to be added to RSP (which would be inappropriate, in my opinion), I would say that it is one of the highest-quality newspapers covering China today. When it comes to Chinese topics, I would trust its reporting above that of the NY Times, for example. -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:10, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

  Note: I've updated my !vote, because though this is a completely inappropriate RfC, editors are still !voting. Caixin is one of the best sources for domestic issues in China, and the fact that editors are arguing that it should be discounted for the sole fact that it is Chinese, without any evidence that it is unreliable, is very concerning. In the thread below, I've actually detailed a situation in which Caixin's accurate reporting on a domestic Chinese issue was subsequently misused and spun into an absurd conspiracy theory by other (largely well respected American) media outlets. This demonstrates the absurdity of discounting Caixin and relying solely on non-Chinese sources for coverage of China. -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:59, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

  It looks like the consensus here is Option 2, which isn't giving this publication a thumbs up/down, and fits well with giving consideration to context. LondonIP (talk) 22:54, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

  That's the default for any publication, including the NY Times, the Washington Post, the Guardian, etc. (all of which have inferior - both in terms of quantity and quality - reporting than Caixin when it comes to China). -Thucydides411 (talk) 10:40, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

  Some editors may argue that additional considerations should apply to Caixin in the context of domestic issues subject to Censorship in China. For example, the issue of COVID-19 origins is heavily censored in Chinese domestic media, including Caixin, so some editors may say we can't use them in that context. According to some RS, the Chinese government is reportedly promoting a narrative of having contained the virus, claiming to have only a few or zero cases with a population of over a billion, while other RSs like The Economist say the real figures may exceed 1.5m. This is an example of how additional considerations may apply, so I think this is a good RfC. LondonIP (talk) 16:40, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

  the Chinese government is reportedly promoting a narrative of having contained the virus: It is an indisputable fact that the virus has been almost completely contained in China since mid-2020. Anyone with any basic level of familiarity with / connections in the country is aware of this (the medical journal The Lancet has an article on this, if you're interested). Frankly, the fact that many people doubt this or are unaware of it in the US and Europe speaks to the very poor state of news coverage on China in those regions. The most accurate coverage in the US on this particular point probably comes from the business news, believe it or not, because they care about what the actual situation in China is, as it affects business operations. Bloomberg regularly promot[es] a narrative of [China] having contained the virus, because it's true and it affects how businesses operate in China (e.g. this article). Throughout the pandemic, Caixin has had some of the very best reporting on CoVID-19 in China. Caixin reported quite critically on the early response in Wuhan, and is the main reason that we know so much detail about how the first patients were identified in late December 2019. I have not seen reporting on the pandemic in China of comparable quality in any American or European news outlet.

  On the other hand, many American and European sources have at times humored various conspiracy theories about the pandemic in China. One example that is particularly relevant here is about the death toll in Wuhan. This story began with an accurate report by Caixin about people collecting urns of their deceased loved ones in Wuhan after the end of the lockdown. In a city of 11 million people, several tens of thousands of people die in any given two months, so after the strict 76-day lockdown ended, there was a backlog of funerals and burials. Caixin reported on this - in particular, people lining up to pick up urns. Radio Free Asia, which is run by the US government, picked up this Caixin story, combined it with speculation from social media, and claimed that tens of thousands of people had died of CoVID-19 in Wuhan. This was then picked up and uncritically repeated (with some hedging language) by various outlets around the world: [41][42][43][44]. Coincidentally, this happened right at the time when the US was surpassing China in its total case count, and when Trump was beginning to claim that China was hiding its true figures. Radio Free Asia has since gone on to make the even more outlandish claim that 150 thousand people died in Wuhan, which is essentially impossible, given what is known about the infection fatality rate of the virus. Again, this all began with accurate reporting by Caixin that was then spun into a conspiracy theory by other outlets. Since Radio Free Asia made its first claims (but before it made its even more outlandish claims of 150 thousand deaths), several scientific studies have estimated the death toll and number of infections in Wuhan. They come to the conclusion that about 4500 people died of the virus in Wuhan (slightly more than the official count, but 10x less than Radio Free Asia's first claim, and 50x less than RFA's subsequent claim), and that only a few percent of the population of the city was infected: NatureThe Lancet.

  The knee-jerk reaction that Chinese outlets must automatically be less reliable than their American or European counterparts is not necessarily correct, as this example shows. Downgrading Caixin merely because it is Chinese would be misguided. We would actually be losing one of the most reliable sources on events in China. -Thucydides411 (talk) 12:13, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

  China’s reportly low COVID-19 cases and fatalities are not indisputable fact, as you put it. You have an article in the Lancet from a health journalist and I have several articles in The Economist and other RS, also from health journalists, and we can present both for

  WP:BALANCE. Frankly, the fact that you are want to present the CCP’s narrative of events as fact, demonstrates the need for this RfC. I agree that Caixin does good reporting, but my !vote will be to apply additional considerations on domestic issues that are subject to censorship. This is a very narrow restriction that sensible editors can apply on a case by case basis. LondonIP (talk

  ) 21:33, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

  On the one hand, there is a peer-reviewed study of excess pneumonia mortality published in The BMJ and peer-reviewed serological studies published in Nature and The Lancet. On the other hand, there is an article in a popular economics magazine. This is

  WP:FALSEBALANCE. China's mortality figure is fairly well understood now, and the fact that there has been virtually no community transmission of SARS-CoV-2 since the end of the first wave is - as I said - not something one can dispute. The fact that you're calling basic facts about the pandemic in China the "CCP's narrative" is incredibly concerning, because it suggests that politics is creeping into and distorting this subject area. -Thucydides411 (talk

  ) 07:51, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1.5, but also Bad RFC, as others have mentioned there isn't reason behind this other than "why not?", but I don't see any problems with this source other than the usual considerations for media based out of mainland China. It might be better to consolidate the consensus of mainland Chinese media (and possibly other countries where state has heavy thumb on the scale) when not otherwise stated into a "don't use this to cite three T's/Xinjiang stuff, otherwise OK for domestic", so discussions can be focused on the true garbage (Global Times, open wikis like Baike, maybe some of the Chinese SPS blog platforms if it becomes a problem...) Jumpytoo Talk 09:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

  Re: "It might be better to consolidate the consensus of mainland Chinese media...when not otherwise stated into a don't use this to cite

  WP:XINHUA would be better. - GretLomborg (talk

  ) 20:01, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

• There have been relevant developments since the opening of this discussion, see yesterday’s piece in The Diplomat: "In a bid to further concentrate state control over public messaging, China released draft regulations on Friday that would ban “non-public capital” from funding “news gathering, editing and broadcasting.” The proposal is contained in the Market Access Negative List (2021), released by the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), the country’s main economic planning agency. If adopted, the Negative List would deal a significant blow to Caixin, a print and online financial news service revered for investigative journalism, including into the death toll of COVID-19 in Wuhan last year... The draft Negative List is comprehensive in banning “non-public” money from funding “broadcasts relating to politics, economics, the military, diplomacy, society, culture, technology, health, education, sports and other activities or events relating to governance.” It is not official yet but under “public consultation,” and stakeholders are invited to submit comments to the NDRC before a revised draft is approved and enacted. However, most regulations in China are passed with little modification following the “public consultation” period."[45] Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

• Options 1 and 2: Reliable source, but additional considerations apply to domestic issues subject to the PRC’s censorship policies. LondonIP (talk) 21:34, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

  Do you have any evidence that Caixin's reporting is unreliable? In my experience, Caixin is one of the most reliable and knowledgeable sources for domestic issues in China. Other news agencies outside of China often rely heavily on Caixin for basic reporting on issues in China (a small sampling: [46][47][48][49][50][51][52]). I've actually given an example in our above discussion in which Caixin accurately reported on an issue in Wuhan, only for Radio Free Asia (and subsequently various sources we generally consider reliable) to spin an absurd conspiracy theory about CoVID-19 deaths in Wuhan (which was disproven by later peer-reviewed scientific research into mortality and serology in Wuhan). In that instance, Caixin was reliable, while the likes of Bloomberg and Times Magazine were not. Yet if we follow your suggestion, we'll discount Caixin for this sort of Chinese domestic issue and rely solely on the sorts of sources that in this case pushed a false conspiracy theory. -Thucydides411 (talk) 08:19, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

@Thucydides411: Do you have any reliable sources which talks about this conspiracy theory using the language and fact pattern which you do here? If what you say is true then we should be deprecating RFA, Bloomberg, Times Magazine, and many more. Those are very serious assertions to bring to RSN. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:49, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back: Above, I've cited the peer-reviewed studies on mortality (The BMJ) and serology (The Lancet and Nature) in Wuhan, indicating that the death toll in Wuhan was approximately 4500 and that a few percent of the people in the city were infected (note that these are numbers consistent with one another). I've also cited Radio Free Asia's claims of more than 40,000 deaths and 150,000 deaths (9x and 150x the scientific estimate, respectively). I've also showed that various other sources, including Bloomberg and Time Magazine, uncritically repeated RFA's massive exaggerations of the death toll in Wuhan. You can look at RFA's claims about mortality (repeated uncritically by other outlets) and then look at the scientific studies, and draw your own conclusions. I think reliability should be evaluated in context and I strongly dislike deprecation as a tool for dealing with most sources, so I do not think that Bloomberg and Time Magazine should be deprecated for spreading this particular conspiracy theory. But I do think that this example shows how absurd it would be to deprecate Caixin solely because it is Chinese, and instead relying solely on media like Bloomberg, Time Magazine (or even worse, RFA) for domestic issues in China. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:05, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

I don’t see it called a conspiracy theory in those links nor do I see the criticism of media coverage you say should be there. Also note that nobody so far has argued to deprecate Caixin solely because it is Chinese, or on any other grounds. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:53, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

We're allowed to use our own brains here and see that RFA published claims about the death toll in Wuhan (which it drew from social media) that are 9x to 50x the true figure, as found by scientific studies, and that a whole number of media outlets that we normally consider reliable humored these wild exaggerations. You yourself have suggested that if this is true, we should be deprecating RFA and a host of other sources. Well, I've demonstrated above that it's true, and you haven't disputed this or given any contrary evidence.

Also note that nobody so far has argued to deprecate Caixin solely because it is Chinese. The arguments above for downgrading Caixin are based purely on the fact that it is Chinese, even though many acknowledge that Caixin's reporting is of excellent quality. Caixin's reporting on Chinese domestic issues is generally of higher quality than that of most American and European media outlets (and as I've shown above, non-Chinese news media often relies on Caixin's reporting), so it would be a real shame for Wikipedia to downgrade Caixin, based purely on the fact that it is Chinese. -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:41, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

You haven’t presented any evidence, none of your sources talk about a conspiracy theory propagated by the sources you claim prorated it. If what you say is true then yes we do need to seriously reconsider whether those sources are WP:RS, this is getting a little off track so with your grace I will open a dedicated discussion of it (we are in the right forum after all). Downgrade=/=Deprecate and that does not appear to be the argument above. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:26, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

You haven’t presented any evidence: That's simply false, as anyone who looks at the above thread can see. I've demonstrated that RFA has exaggerated the death toll in Wuhan by 10-50x, and that other outlets have uncritically humored RFA's claims. Just repeating that I haven't presented evidence, when I clearly have, is not an argument. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:10, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

You haven’t demonstrated that a conspiracy theory exists, you also haven’t demonstrated that RFA is the originator of said conspiracy theory. You also appear to be overstating the conclusions of those papers, those are estimates not definitive figures and are presented as such. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:52, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm a little surprised by the position you're taking here. You're essentially saying that it doesn't matter if RFA and other outlets massively exaggerate (by 9-50x) the death toll in Wuhan, relative to the numbers that have been scientifically established. As long as no other source subsequently writes an article specifically about RFA's propagation of CoVID-19 misinformation, you're essentially saying we should look the other way and pretend that RFA is still reliable for this subject area. Yet at the same time, you're arguing that Caixin should be downgraded, not because it has actually been shown to be unreliable in any way, but merely because it operates in China. I can't reconcile these two positions you're taking. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:11, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I’m saying it would matter, if we had a source other than Thucydides411 saying thats what happened. I’m arguing that Caixin should be downgraded? This is news to me. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Please show some good faith. I've shown you what RFA claimed, and what scientific studies in The BMJ, The Lancet and Nature say. Claiming that this could all be my invention is bad faith. Unless you're disputing that 150,000 is more than 50x as much as 4,500, it's indisputable that RFA has pushed wildly exaggerated claims about the death toll in Wuhan. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:17, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I am showing good faith, you have yet to show me a source other than yourself which supports the assertion that there is a conspiracy theory here. That sources publish different estimates at different times based on different information isn’t the same thing. On the topic of good faith do you want to maybe address the position in the "two positions” that doesn’t exist? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:56, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

On