Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 385

• Status quo - Per what I wrote in
  WP:RSP should be a tool to help reduce conflict, not create it. — Rhododendrites ^talk
  \\ 17:20, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade or deprecate - absolutely not a reliable source for Wikipedia, should not be used - David Gerard (talk) 17:28, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo for politics with a caveat that controversial subjects need additional verification and downgrade science. Selfstudier (talk) 20:45, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
• Deprecate per the plentiful examples and sources (including peer reviewed articles) provided by Andrevan, Aasim, VickKiang, Aquillion, Muboshgu, Loki, FlantasyFlan, Beccaynr, and others. I've read all the status quo comments to date and I don't see any attempt to rebut the sources and examples provided by these editors, they are mostly a combination of "I don't see the problem" and
  WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Gamaliel (talk
  ) 21:06, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  As a status quo supporter myself, I don't feel the need to rebut the examples provided. They exist, and they're exactly why we don't consider Fox to be generally reliable. I agree that there are all kinds of issues with Fox's reporting—I'd easily say that the world would be a better place without Fox in it—but I think the current classification as

  WP:MREL accounts for its actual reporting as a very mixed bag. Retswerb (talk

  ) 03:38, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  And if we start using the same logic presented in the examples (which has been questioned below) to evaluate other RSes on the left, we'll find several of the same problems. Its the symptom of how bias reporting has become over the last several years, and would be a problem to tag Fox News without tagging other sources in the same manner. Masem (t) 03:50, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Gamaliel (talk

  ) 15:49, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  OTHERSTUFFEXUSTS applied to content, not to how we measure reliability of our sources. We should be using the same yardstick to evaluate source reliability and not create exemptions, which is unfortunately what is being done with Fox here. Too much "its associated with right-wing leanings therefore any flaws make it bad" rather than "and these flaw comparable to similar flaws from other RSes?" Remember that we didn't blacklist Daily Mail due to their bias, but that due to being so biased they took to falsification and other misdeeds in journalism. Fox may be

  On the wrong side of public opinion but we've yet to see false info published by their news side that wasn't subsequently fixed. Masem (t) 20:34, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  From my list, #1, #2, #7, and #8 are still there with no response or correction, and I haven't heard any discussion on the latter two. Andre🚐 20:43, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  The rebuttals are all at the very end of this thread. Several editors have posted rebuttals of the first 2-4 sources and tend to get sick of it after Andrevan makes a political debate out of each one. SamuelRiv (talk) 04:05, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  Did you think someone commented without seeing the rest of the thread, deigned not to read it, or had they reviewed them, and determined based on that information as presented? Andre🚐 04:23, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  Based on "I don't see any attempt to rebut" it's fair to infer that the rebuttals had not been seen. Retswerb (talk) 07:59, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  It's reasonable to read that Gamaliel saw everything and still sees a lot that was presented which was not rebutted, insufficiently, or ineffectively rebutted. The question is whether Fox News has issues with fact-checking and correcting errors, presenting conspiracies as fact, omitting facts, etc. Like the Daily Mail. The status quo is closer to "use caution" than "watch out!" I don't want to just repeat myself, but no less than 3 "status quo" supporters have piled on to Gamaliel's read of the RFC thus far. Andre🚐 20:10, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

• Status quo per Mhawk10. Ultimately Fox is marginally reliable when it comes to politics, and it's usable for many things, especially uncontroversial claims. No harm in determining reliability on a case-by-case basis. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 02:45, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status Quo. Like various above I see a real problem with Fox's bias in terms of what they choose to report and what they choose to omit—but find that their content quality deserves the kind of individual attention already described as Additional Considerations Apply. Downgrading is overkill here and will only encourage those who already tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to shining a light on Wikipedia's own biases. Retswerb (talk) 03:30, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo. As much as I dislike Fox, after reading over nearly every argument, counterargument, and piece of evidence set forth here, I am thoroughly unconvinced by the proponents of downgrading it. I came in here expecting to see a mountain of cases where Fox has pushed demonstrably false claims, allowing me to quickly vote for option 3; instead, most of the evidence is irrelevant. To be specific, the long list set forth by the nominator below has a handful of examples that actually concern me. However, most of it falls under
  WP:HEADLINES (I am surprised that the nominator bothered to include the headlines at all, considering they have zero weight as evidence here per policy) or are opinion pieces, which aren't reliable regardless. Eight entries are examples where Fox has bashed PolitiFact, instances where Fox has expressed opinions but not made any claims of facts that can be disputed. It is not false or unreliable to say that Twitter is upset with a rival news outlet, or to quote from tweets and radical pundits; those are just other peoples' opinions. At risk of sounding like a far-right radical or political POV-pusher, it's very hard to ignore the views of others here that this RfC is as about personal politics as it is about reliability. On a more practical note, the status quo already urges caution with regard to Fox, and that seems sufficient to me. Toadspike (talk
  ) 14:43, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade or deprecate, per dozens of sources presented in previous RfCs. No scholar or expert that I'm familiar with considers FN a reliable news source, so neither should we. François Robere (talk) 16:49, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade to generally unreliable. Fox has published a few false statements as fact. AKK700 21:25, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
• Depreciate Fox News pushes a point of view in a way that is beyond the normal bias of other news articles. Let's take Islam as an example, I quote Numerous scholars have shown how Fox News has shaped attitudes toward Muslims, especially among Republicans (Iyengar and Recker [17]; Zuniga et al. [50]). Indeed in some prior analyses, researchers find that Islamophobia among both Christians and Republicans operates through Fox News viewership (Calfano et al. [ 6]; Stroud and Lee [45]). from source: WINNICK, T. A. Islamophobia: Social Distance, Avoidance, and Threat. Sociological Spectrum, [s. l.], v. 39, n. 6, p. 359–374, 2019. DOI 10.1080/02732173.2019.1704668. Disponível em: https://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=sih&AN=141192409&site=eds-live&scope=site. Acesso em: 4 ago. 2022. So it's a "news" site that is islamophobic? No thanks. Others have already shown how Fox News misinformation about COVID and natural immunity occurred and that is fatally misleading. CT55555 (talk) 22:45, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

• Are those sources referring to the news or the commentary/talking heads? It seems most of the time when looking at comments about Fox one finds they are talking about Tucker Carlson et al rather than the basic reporting which a subset is at question here is what is at question in this RfC. Springee (talk) 23:17, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  I read content via the Wikipedia Library resource a bit before posting, and I found that academic sources tend not to make this distinction between parts of Fox News. I also observed that

  WP:RSP doesn't seem to either. So I find the concept in which people seem to think a source can have reliable elements and unreliable elements to be unconvincing. I contend that to be a credible news network, a corporation can't have a crazy racist uncle section that we all just accept as not really the network. CT55555 (talk

  ) 13:51, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

• That sounds a little like SYNTH with a splash of OR. Islamophobia has nothing to do with reporting factual news; rather, such labels reflect bias on both sides, and we don't downgrade a source because it's biased. If we did, we wouldn't have any news sources from which to choose. I see big holes in the arguments favoring the deprecating/downgrading of Fox in light of the unquestioned acceptance of CNN, NBC, ABC, MSNBC, WaPo, and NYTimes as RS despite similar or worse reporting. Cuomo was a long way from providing ethical journalism and so was NBC's Brian Williams. There are just too many to name them all. Atsme 💬 📧 15:56, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

  I think I'm allowed to synthesise and opine here, I think this is a process of seeking opinion, we're not writing an article here. I did acknowledge that all news has bias, and I stated that Fox, in my opinion, operates outside normal parameters. I stand by my perspective that pushing an islamophobic agenda is not behaviour consistent with a reliable news source and that is just one example that I've cherry picked to build upon unscientific health information pushed by Fox mentioned in more detail by others. I think it's OK for you to share anecdotes in links, but let's take a step back and consider the bigger picture and my perception is that Fox is an outlier in terms of journalistic integrity, and if someone opens a conversation about the other sources above, I'll critique them there. CT55555 (talk) 16:48, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

• Deprecate or Downgrade if deprecate does not have enough support. I still cringe from their story years ago that elderly people were standard killed in hospitals in The Netherlands. The truth was that unbearably suffering people (not even alone the elderly, as Fox claimed then) could file a paper request to help with euthanasia, in discussion with family and physicians. Active killing, as Fox claimed would happen in The Netherlands, is still illegal. The Banner talk 23:24, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo, if not upgrade, mostly per
  WP:APLRS. As an aside, given its importance and broad appeal, I suggest that this RfC be extended longer than the usual 30 days. On a positive note, I am glad to see that this discussion has not devolved into pure vitriol and that several cogent arguments have been put forth. Ovinus (talk
  ) 00:33, 5 August 2022 (UTC) Revised 01:52, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo I see no reason to change the current status. Yes it may have a right wing stance on the news, but every news outlet holds a political view theirs is just more pronounced/infamous like CNN or the Guardian are for their left leaning views. Plus as above, we don't want this to cause another puritanical purge of Fox sources like happened with the Daily Mail if passed which will result in a lot of
  WP:POINT discussions (plus could drag others like Fox Sports (Australia) into the sweeping removals). The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk
  ) 06:41, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo until evidence is presented that there has been editoral changes to the newsroom portion of FoxNews in the last few months. People, above, seem to be conflating the TV content and the newsroom content that goes on the website. --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 11:40, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

  WP:RSP does seem to treat news companies as a whole. What I see is that it does not tend to have different ratings per medium. If people are generally taking Fox News to include television content and internet content in a time in human history when "television" news is often delivered via internet, perhaps it is logical to treat all an outlet's content collectively? CT55555 (talk

  ) 11:52, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

  While it's atypical, there are cases that specifically draw a dividing line w.r.t. reliability for certain sections/topics. Aside from how we currently treat Fox News, these include Sixth Tone, the Huffington Post , Rolling Stone, Anadolu Agency, and Business Insider. —

  (nest)

  18:20, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

  And, we also don't tend to rate based on corporate ownership per se; The Times and WSJ are owned by the same company that owns the New York Post and The Sun, while the owners of Politico and Die Welt also owns Bild and Business Insider. Big companies often own various different quality news outlets that have different target audiences. —

  (nest)

  18:26, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

• Upgrade Most if not all of the criticism is about talk shows on Fox News Channel, such as "Fox and Friends," rather than Fox News news reporting. Talk shows are not reliable no matter who broadcasts them and if that were the standard for reliability of news reporting, we would have to deprecate all cable news. I note that long time Fox News anchor Shep Smith moved to CNBC, while long time Fox News Channel host Megan Kelly moved to NBC. And both CNN hosts Glenn Beck and Lou Dobbs moved to Fox. The only difference between Fox and the other cable news networks is that its editorial policy is more right-wing. TFD (talk) 21:58, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status Quo My own sense is that it's reliability is dependent on the topic of coverage. It needs to be evaluated in a given context. I also suspect that many reactions here are colored by Fox's talk shows, rather than its news reporting. JArthur1984 (talk)JArthur1984
• Status Quo To evaluate a media source that publishes thousands of articles annually (and in the near-future, with AI, we’ll have millions if not billions), a statistical analysis of the content is going to be increasingly important. Something like the
  Media Bias Chart (with a methodology that is trustworthy and open-source) ought to be Wikipedia’s approach to assess bias and reliability, rather than the seeking and finding of a few individual examples (or counterexamples) of bias and unreliability. BBQboffin (talk
  ) 01:33, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status Quo There are some instances in which Fox is unreliable, but at the same time, there are also some instances in which it is fine as a source. It really depends on the individual articles you’re looking at. Doing a full on depracation or removal of many Fox citations without looking at the individual articles will do far more harm than good. If better sources can be found, they should be used instead, but this isn’t always the case. X-Editor (talk) 19:12, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade or Deprecate. A few years ago I was willing to bend over backwards to keep Fox as a source. Aside from it being big, I actively wanted it for diversity given how many sources on the right had tanked themselves with complete and utter unreliability. However Fox has rotted since then. In addition to the case made by so many others, I'll try to add a new angle. Amid the endless drumbeat of propaganda, Fox did have some high quality elements in the lineup. In particular their Election Desk was widely acknowledged as among the best in the business. The staff were of course Republican, but they were noted for objective and analytical and expert elections calls. It was particularly noted when they called Arizona for Biden before anyone else, and they nailed it. They ended up fired for it - fired for doing some of the best work in the business. And then there's Chris Wallace - another top tier respected professional. He quit Fox, explaining "I’m fine with opinion: conservative opinion, liberal opinion. But when people start to question the truth — Who won the 2020 election? Was Jan. 6 an insurrection? — I found that unsustainable." Given everying cited on this page, given that Fox's quality staff are either being fired or fleeing, it's just not worth it trying to work around all of the malicious or incompentent or sloppy crap. If something is newsworthy, cite it from somewhere else. Alsee (talk) 00:38, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status Quo The evidence does not convince me. Though fox is clearly not generally reliable (and the evidence supports this), spot checking the politics section on the website reveals, for me, that fox isn't generally useless as a source. Editors should be able to use Fox News (in politics/science) with a dose of caution, especially for uncontroversial claims. —Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 13:19, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
  • After checking fox news out of curiosity after the Biden affadavit, I guess [22] and [23] are good examples of what I generally consider Fox's coverage to be like in the [controversial] politics area (I'm not trying to cherrypick as one article was the front story in the politics section and the other was the coverage I was curious about, but I might've anyway). Neither contain what appear to be false facts (things spoken in Fox voice) and anything that I might consider to be dubious was quoted from somebody else in the format "X said Y" (which can be considered someone else's opinion, but the presentation of it as fact is not great). In addition, other persepectives to what they've said are given one line, if any. That's not ideal journalism and it should defintitely be used cautiously, but I don't think it's evidence that it shouldn't be used in most cases. Editors that want to use it (perhaps to support a point of view or uncontroversial campaign fundraising statistics) would not be able to use it [appropriately] or have a harder time using it [appropriately] since generally unreliable will probably be seen as license to remove/keep out most of fox news references. In addition, I don't see the downgrade of one of the few marginally reliable (or better) large right-wing media outlets in the US as good and I think it'll hamper being closer to a NPOV. Finally, there isn't convincing evidence that fox news citing is causing disruption, see Rhohodendrites's What's the exigency, and considering the above I see no reason why it should change (except perhaps a stronger rewording should happen). —Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 03:49, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
• Deprecate or Downgrade if deprecate does not have enough support. If there is anything reliable and useful, it will nearly always be found on better and more reliable sources, and some of its best newspeople have left Fox for other news bureaus because the news division is unreliable. The whole site can still be used for
  WP:ABOUTSELF, but not about others, especially politics and science. Because most of the site is a misinformation and propaganda source, and there isn't always a clear separation between its news and opinion content, there is too much danger associated with allowing use of the news division. Use other RS for news, politics, and science. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me
  ) 14:59, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade or Status Quo: I'm leaning toward downgrading, but would not be opposed to the SQ. I think Fox is generally unreliable for factual reporting, and a downgrade would be appropriate. However, I think the SQ also offers editors leighway to use Fox for non-controversial claims (somewhere in the comments or survey another editor mentions birthdays as an example). Fox is probably reliable for only the most basic factual political reporting (where candidate lives, age, maybe party membership), but anything past that they tend to be opinionated in their coverage and, most concerning to me, very late and hesitant to issue corrections.TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 19:52, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status Quo – Per others here. It is generally reliable for non-controversial claims and actual news. If this source is downgraded then there are plenty more that should be as well, but I’m not making the argument for any. United States Man (talk) 20:00, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
• Comment about errors that are "bugs" or "features": I frequently see this argument about Fox News, as made above: "If this source is downgraded then there are plenty more that should be as well." No, that argument makes no sense, because Fox does it on purpose. The others just make human errors. We do not downgrade or deprecate sources because they occasionally "get it wrong". Journalists make mistakes, and it happens to the best. That's a "status quo" situation. As long as the source has a habit of correcting such errors, then things are "as they should be". These errors are seen by the source as a regrettable "bug" in the system. It's the price of using human journalists.

We deprecate sources when the errors are a "feature", not a "bug", and so it is with Fox News. Those are not "errors". They are deliberate. It is a "feature" of all Murdoch media enterprises, including Fox News. It is only the degree that determines whether we downgrade or deprecate such sources. Too much carelessness and sloppiness get "downgraded". Egregious and systematic "feature" errors (mis- and disinformation) get deprecated. That's why Fox News, as a propaganda source, should be deprecated. -- Valjean (talk)

• Do you have any specific evendence to prove both parts of ...Fox does it on purpose. The others just make human errors, where "Fox" means the Fox News website being discussed here (and not something like Tucker Carlson's opinion show)? You're making very strong allegations of intent, which are easy to feel are true but are really hard to prove are actually true, and any such evidence that was unambigious and convincing would be pretty signficant in the context of this RFC. - GretLomborg (talk) 15:52, 9 August 2022 (UTC)(PING me) 02:40, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• "staff say has helped mold the websites more in the image of the network’s right-wing opinion programming."[24] Andre🚐 16:18, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  The Daily Beast is a yellow source at RSN - "There is no consensus on the reliability of The Daily Beast. Most editors consider The Daily Beast a biased or opinionated source." Mr Ernie (talk) 16:56, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Similar material in the NYT: [25] More than a dozen reporters for Fox’s digital arm were also laid off, a culling that followed pre-election layoffs in the Brain Room, the in-house research and fact-checking division. Andre🚐 20:01, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• GretLomborg, are you seriously that unfamiliar with this topic? The better news anchors will correct glaring errors when confronted, unlike Carlson, Hannity, Gutfeld, Bongino, Perrino, Piro, Doocy, et al. The problem with the news side is that they consistently refuse to cover certain very important events that are contrary to the GOP and Murdoch party lines, and when they do cover such events, they do it in a very one-sided manner that seeks to undermine the facts. The news anchors who won't do that get openly ridiculed and persecuted and have left Fox News. Even Chris Wallace has left.

For example, Fox News refused to cover the Jan. 6 hearings. They were the ONLY network which did that. Fox News has also pushed fake election "fraud" stories for a long time, causing Chris Wallace to leave. Those are serious breaches of journalistic ethics. When the facts are very well-known, and a major news source like Fox News consistently contradicts the facts and/or refuses to cover or discuss them, that reveals political, agenda-driven, coverage and consciousness of guilt. They are flying under the radar, and one can only do that when one knows what is true and seeks to avoid it. They are a propaganda source.

In the end, if there is any form of news worth reporting here, all other RS will cover it, so we should ensure that only those sources are used. Deprecate Fox News. We literally lose NOTHING by doing so. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

So, in other words, you don't really have evidence, just speculation. Also why do you even bring up Carlson, Hannity, Gutfeld, Bongino, Perrino, Piro, Doocy? They're not anchors, they're opinion talk show hosts, and they're already listed as generally unreliable, and like I said before, they're not under discussion in this RFC. My understanding is Wallace left because he didn't like what those talking heads were doing on thier opinon shows, not with what the news operation was doing, and your source doesn't contadict that. Also, if not covering some story at a particular volume is grounds for deprication, then we would need to depricate the NY Times, because they do that too; which just shows that criteria isn't a good one. Frankly, I'm only seeing things here that reinforce the already pretty negative status quo (see

WP:FOXNEWS). I understand Fox News is a hate-object for many (primarily because of their opinion talk shows), so I think it's really important to be careful about what we're actually talking about (foxnews.com) and not gesture at other parts that are out of scope and already correctly (negatively) labeled. GretLomborg (talk

) 19:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Taking the view that any Fox News story is likely duplicated by another from other is fine, but that shouldn't be used to justify the depreciation of Fox for two main reasons.

First, it will make RSP clear that we discriminate against right-leaning sources. Fox isn't the only right leaning source out there but it is likely the most appatent right-leaning one, and eliminating it will make WP become more open to criticism and attack from those already dissatisfied with how we do typically mirror left-leaning sources, which can make every editor's life difficult.

Second, nearly everything being discussed about why Fox is a bad source are things that every other major paper does, just far more diluted and far less obvious. Distorting news to give one side morepredominance, for example. As yet no one has shown a case where Fox has done 100% fake news as the case of Daily Mail or RT, which should be held as metrics when sources should be deprecated. Instead, we are trying to downgrade Fox for doing what all other major news sources also do, just not with the same frequency. So if you deprecated Fox for that, then we need to start reviewing other sources for the same reason.

I am absolutely fine with the advice of seeking other sources to replace Fox ones with if possible, but we can state this without creating future problems by downgrading or depreciating Fox. Masem (t) 17:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Fox has fabricated information: for example that Clinton paid to infiltrate White House servers.[26][27] or that the Biden admin redefined 'recession'[28][29] and they remain uncorrected. If other sources do it, downgrade them too. Andre🚐 17:25, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

That first case I would consider exaggeration of what the report actually said (picking up on isolated phrases to support how they'd like to see it reported), while the second does properly explain the mess on the definition of recession (which other sources have also reporyed) and then points fingers at staunch Biden policy supporters to paint them as hypocritical. Thats again taking a specific POV as how they report but not a complete false information presented as if it were the truth. Masem (t) 17:35, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

The first case, the phrase does not appear anywhere "White House servers" that they claim is in Durham's document. It's a fabrication. The 2nd case, the Biden administration did not redefine recession at any time: it was always defined by

NBER in the U.S. Both are blatantly false, not exaggerations. Andre🚐

19:56, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

In the first case reading both the Fix article and the article debunking it, it is clear Fox was writing in the full article about the DNS servers that were handling requests from the white house, but In that first para said these "white house servers". That is not miles from the truth and a purposely vague statement to make one want to read more, but as the debunking article goes, it is all part jf cluckbait mentality that all media sources use, to get something to intice the reader above the fold or in short search results listing. So no Fox did not make up anything, just used sloppy tech reporting to entice readers. The second they aren't forcing on Biden but on his media supporters that stood by the definition of recession Biden had used and now, in Fo's view, were eating crow by saying oops when Biden backed off that. Its obvious why Fox is focusing on this part of the story, but again they correctly state what happened with Biden and the definition if recession. (That second debunking article is about s social media post and not Fox's coverage). This selective focus is common among all media as well and thus not a reason to target Fox for it. Masem (t) 20:40, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, Fox uses "infiltrated" as their own word, but that's nothing different from, say, how most major news sources called the FBI's search on Mar-o-lago as a "raid". As I said, I can read Fox's report, knowing that Durham's report is talking about DNS servers that are not located at the WH, and see how Fox is stretching the language but not being flatly untruthful when they say that there was activity around "WH servers" which could be read as "servers used by the WH" (which would include the DNS servers). So again, that's understanding where Fox has used specific language to serve their needs but not have created flat out lies. And on the recession definition, Fox points out that it is the Biden admin that has given separate definitions of what a recession is. Yes, the language Fox chooses is tailored to fit their negative impression of Biden and his admin, but that's no different from how Trump is treated by the left-leaning media, just not as "concentrated". Doesn't mean Fox is bad, but the current advice at RSP (that Fox's reliability for political and science news is questionable) would allow us to avoid those specific article knowing the bigger picture when we add in stories from other major outlets. Masem (t) 03:51, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

The servers were Trump Tower servers, this was before the election, so it's a flat out lie. If they were "spying" on White House servers, they'd be Obama's servers at the time. There were no White House servers or servers used by the White House anywhere in the whole Durham thing. Even if you think "infiltrate" is a reasonable description of what they did (it's not), the White House part is a fabrication. Fox just invented it out of whole cloth. As far as the recession thing, despite Fox's statement, "Biden administration attempted to redefine what a recession..." NBER has for many years defined what a recession is. If you don't believe me, look at the old version of the recession article from 2021. Andre🚐 03:56, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• Deprecate Fox News is, without a doubt, a propaganda apparatus, first and foremost. They were acceptable for a time due to the relative neutrality of their general news reporting, but this is being eroded steadily, and it's time we stopped pretending like that's not a major red flag for unreliability. Happy (Slap me) 16:25, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Upgrade per Chris Troutman. Status Quo at worst. Almost all of this "downgrade" garbage is based on political motivation. NYT and others that are "reliable" consistently push a political viewpoint. FoxNews is no worse/better. Buffs (talk) 16:56, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  No, this downgrade has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with how it communicates misleading information (like

  Wikipedia:DAILYMAIL). This Vox video shows how Fox News's mixed messaging from opinion programming to factual reporting has actually created internal conflict among viewers of the Fox network, specifically in the area of the COVID vaccine. And even though Fox News does report some truths (just as RT reports some facts as well), it has become clear that News Corp wanted Fox News to appeal to a conservative audience. This is, in fact, the same problem with MSNBC; its attempts to appeal to partisan audiences has resulted in both MSNBC and Fox News losing its ability to present information in a non-misleading way. CNN is slightly left leaning and yet it at times can be quite reliable (its online articles, not the screaming matches on TV). On the other side, Wall Street Journal is slightly right leaning yet it too also does not knowingly publish misinformation. This is about the marketing to political appeal affecting the credibility of Fox News, not "political motivation". Aasim - Herrscher of Wikis

  ❄️ 16:30, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  Given that rather deranged diatribe on your talk page --screeching about "leftist cesspools", "Marxists", and every other favourite Tucker Carlson buzzword-- I can't imagine you being taken seriously. Dricoust (talk) Dricoust (talk) 10:01, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

  What someone had said on their talk page have no effect on their argument here. You didn't engage in the discussion with

  WP:AGF. Attack the argument, not the political opinion of the other editor. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact)

  12:25, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

• Downgrade or deprecate Supporters of the status quo or upgrading make the argument that this RFC exists for political reasons, but it's well-documented that Fox News deliberately spreads disinformation to further their own agenda, as articulated by Andrevan, Aquillion, Muboshgu, Loki, and others. My own political leanings aside, I agree that right-wing sources can and should be used, as long as they don't deliberately distort facts. Now, every source messes up and publishes something false every once in a while, but when it comes to Fox News it happens far too often to be an accident, and it's happening even more often now. It would be irresponsible to keep considering Fox News a usable source when it is getting further and further divorced from reality. {{u|Bowler the Carmine}} (he/him | talk) 19:43, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade - Fox News has systematically wrong reporting and disinformation that goes beyond the general biases that do exist. Leaving it as "no consensus" would be inconsistent, as other sources with similar tendencies were considered unreliable as well. I fully concur in the analysis of Anachronist and after reviewing the "Evidence added by Andrevan" section conclude that we can certainly agree that Fox News is an unreliable source for politics. CrazyPredictor (talk) 19:47, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo - Needs to be a case by case basis. MaxnaCarta (talk) 01:45, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade They've been able to go too long promulgating misinformation, coasting off the presence of a few nominally reputable journalists. Protonk (talk) 04:46, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• As an aside, editors arguing that we should upgrade Fox News are telling on themselves. We should be suspicious of what they bring to a collegial editing environment, especially those who have been here many years. Protonk (talk) 14:48, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  The argument to upgrade relies on a willful misunderstanding of the purpose of the RFC. Andrevan and others have reiterated many times that the RFC is about the reliability of Fox News, not its political slant (although its political slant does allegedly affect its reliability). I have not seen a single argument to upgrade that addresses the evidence provided by various editors; they all equivocate between Fox News and liberal news sources, paying no attention to the stated purpose of the RFC and the ample evidence given that would suggest that downgrading or deprecating are the only responsible options. {{u|Bowler the Carmine}} (he/him | talk) 16:43, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps one of the “upgrade” !voters could compile a list of times Fox was accurate in its political and/or science reporting (or at least a sample of such). That would give us something to compare. Blueboar (talk) 17:34, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

What thread are you reading? Editors have been arguing for tens of thousands of words over just whether the first four of the dozen or so articles posted are actually genuinely cases of Fox being demonstrably inaccurate. Whether you agree with that assessment or not, your notion that these same editors should now provide their own "accurate" articles is simply bizarre (since obviously the presumption would be that if the best evidence of "inaccurate" articles are considered technically accurate, then all other articles can be presumed accurate until reviewed.) SamuelRiv (talk) 21:37, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Uhm, contributors that have what you consider to be a 'wrong' opinion with fox news are definitely able to contribute to Wikipedia in a positive way. Atsme, for example, has (rigorously) trained 11 (11!) patrollers at

WP:Signpost and has written a few articles for them. Both have, of course, bring other things to the Wikipedia environment. I don't think its wise to say to be suspicious of what a group of editors brings to the editing environment without providing evidence or examining several of the editors' contributions first. —Danre98^{(talk^contribs}

) 20:29, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

If they're willing to support propagandists (perhaps for some good reason like misguided duty to equanimity) then they are asking us to give in to misinformation. That being the case, it is rather more of a shame that they are long term contributors with positions of responsibility, friends in high places, and deep experience with the platform. Protonk (talk) 20:34, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Let's assume good faith of all the contributors. Andre🚐 21:28, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Someone who, in good faith, supports the upgrading of our general view toward Fox News has roughly the same impact for our readers and the world at large as someone who does so for any other reason. Protonk (talk) 22:22, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Good faith is only half of the puzzle. A lot of the arguments for "upgrade" seem to be arguments without arguments, such as something along the lines of "CNN and MSNBC are about the same reliability as Fox News", or "We are becoming more liberal". No, this is not about partisanship, nor is this about CNN or MSNBC. This is specifically about Fox News. The fact that these arguments were made in good faith does not mean they were not misguided. Even some of the downgrade or deprecate arguments are arguments without arguments (something along the lines of "Fox News is propaganda", which again, is opinion). I have put my views about Fox News aside and while yes, it is a conservative site, what prompted me to rethink the reliability of Fox News is the recent downgrade by NewsGuard (a somewhat good starting place for assessing the reliability of a news website). In the recent years, many of the credible reporters have left Fox News. Shepherd Smith left Fox News only to join MSNBC and host his own program there. Chris Wallace left Fox News to partake in the now-defunct CNN+. These changes in anchors and whatnot leave the future of Fox News reliability in limbo. Also note, a full deprecation is not the same as a ban; deprecated sources are just sources that are believed to be extremely unreliable and thus should only be used in exceptional circumstances. Fox News is still a good source for attributed opinion, but I do not think it has the level of credibility as BBC to verify facts. Aasim - Herrscher of Wikis ❄️ 22:59, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Also remember that a lot of the "arguments without arguments" will get ignored when assessing consensus. Aasim - Herrscher of Wikis ❄️ 23:01, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

• Well, would you look at that. Last night Fox News decided to share a doctored photograph of the federal magistrate judge who signed off on the Mar a Lago warrant, implying he was on a plane with Jeffrey Epstein's confidant. Naturally this was in Fox's "opinion" time slot (which not coincidentally is during prime time), but any organization willing to do this is not even remotely reliable as a source. Protonk (talk) 01:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
• It is also worth noting that the idea of "CNN, NYT, NPR, MSNBC, etc." as being "the same as fox but on the left" or representing a monolithic "left wing" view in anything resembling the way FOX represents a right wing view is a political fiction created by a rapidly radicalizing right wing bloc in the United States. The idea that essentially ALL MEDIA is somehow on the "left" with FOX (and more recently, Newsmax and OAN) on the right should be self-evidently false, given that it would 1. require a massive conspiratorial alignment of many different media organizations, 2. assumes facts not in evidence given the conservative ownership of most of the supposedly left-wing organizations and 3. presents a cartoonish idea of what "left-wing" means--to paraphrase Charlie Brooker, including anything to the left of Mussolini. To succumb to this argument (as it looks like we might) is to allow the American right wing to set the terms of debate. Protonk (talk) 23:27, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

"promulgating misinformation" is disinformation. Misinformation is accidental, disinformation is intentional. There is a world of difference between mis- and dis- GreenC 23:03, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

• Status quo, leaning towards downgrade — The reliability of Fox News is clearly geared towards a more conservative audience, including its more climate-related articles, but its articles related to unrelated topics may not have the same level of bias. My assessment of Fox News (see the below section ElijahPepe's assessment) offers a much more thorough breakdown of Fox News. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 14:32, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo. I see no reason to change one way or the other. I cite Fox News on occasion for propositions for which I find that the citation is uncontroversial. BD2412 T 22:37, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade or Deprecate - I find the Fox News website to be on par with its sister publication, the New York Post. Similar tabloid-style headlines, I've seen Fox News even republish NYP and vice versa. Its topics of coverage even when fact-checked are not things to put weight on. Morbidthoughts (talk) 19:32, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Deprecate science coverage, downgrade politics and everything else – outright promotion of misinformation has only intensified since the pandemic and the 2020 election, to the point where we'd be kidding ourselves if we pretended accuracy was a goal, let alone a priority, in their editorial process. Per Aquillion, finding reliable and academic sources documenting this has long been trivial, and it's silly to keep perenially having this debate as more stack up. Any other source with this record would have been rated unreliable or deprecated long ago. As others have said, by this point we have to accept the misinformation is a feature, not a bug. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 13:33, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I wanted to expand on this a little. Reliability on Wikipedia is dependent on two criteria:

1. Is there an editorial process in which accuracy is treated as the highest priority?
2. Are the products of that process reliably accurate?

We use sources where the answer to both these questions is "yes". (For example, there are tens of thousands of blogs that have never published a false word but which we classify as unreliable because we don't have evidence of a process geared towards ensuring that.) In this RfC, things like testimony on the inner workings of Fox have been dismissed as lacking specificity while, simultaneously, specific examples of misinformation, such as the long list presented by Andrevan, have been dismissed as anecdotal. The first kind of evidence shows that accuracy isn't a priority in the process, while the second kind shows us that this leads to inaccurate information being published. Academic analyses, such as those presented by Aquillion, show both. Where ideally we would have active evidence of both criteria, here we have active evidence against both of them. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 21:50, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

• Downgrade The website presents too much misinformation, fhalf-truth, and fabrication, that mislead readers and video clip viewers. It's been rather glaring this week, when we've seen even the more trusted Fox contributors such as Brett Baier misrepresenting the sequence of events (non-compliance with a subpoena) that led the US to seek a search warrant for documents in Trump's possession. It would be deprecate, except that the website contains lots of local news from Fox affiliates, some of which is in-depth and well covered local community and political information. I oppose options 1 and 2. SPECIFICO talk 14:37, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

  Brett Baier does not contribute to the written newsroom content being discussed here. He is one of the talking heads already covered by past RfCs. -- Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 20:33, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

  Brett Baier is not a "talking head." He is the anchor of FoxNews' evening hard-news TV broadcast and, with the depature of Chris Wallace, is the most senior reporter and analyst of fact on the FoxNews TV and web sites. What is your evidence to back that he does not have editorial input and/or control over the content he reports. I think that is incorrect. SPECIFICO talk

  23:07, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

  I think one of the reasons this RFC exists is the organization has a reckless and tactical disregard for the truth, regardless of whatever external divisions we may imagine apply. Baier might already be covered under a past RFC but the people who write his show and pay his salary also pay the salaries of folks who produce website content and direct what they write. Protonk (talk) 20:55, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

• Status quo but leaning towards downgrade. I definitely regret supporting Fox's reliability in the 2020 RfC and I think ElijahPepe's analysis is sound, so I definitely wouldn't be opposed to making it clearer that their political/science-related reporting is something we should be avoiding. (As an aside, I generally think Wikipedia should rely more on newspapers like WSJ and NYT when it comes to politics and discourage cable news sources like Fox and NBC but that's not what this RfC is about.) JOEBRO64 16:30, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
• Deprecate or Downgrade: Fox News has a long history of reporting extremist opinion as fact. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:18, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
• Upgrade or Status Quo: Piggybacking on GRuban's review of the given "evidence", #4 listed below as evidence claims "According to mainstream sources, some parts of the Steele dossier were corroborated" but the source he gives from cnn states "CNN has not confirmed whether any [of the corroborated] content relates to then-candidate Trump," which of course, was the whole point of the dossier. He goes on to include that "body [Fox] says: The dossier has now been largely discredited." which was patently true, as this source from NPR shows how mainstream sources had to revisit their own coverage. This is not the last time recently that they've "gotten it wrong", and I don't see evidence of Fox doing consistently shabby reporting, nor are any other points listed below convincing.^[11] Subuey (talk) 07:23, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
• While it may be inching towards it I don't believe the evidence shows a clear categorical change at this time. There's a wider argument that could be made to discourage high-immediacy, tabloid-like sources in general but I don't think this is a good place to make it. Wording could be revised to be stronger per VickKiang. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:02, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status Quo Fox News is known for some degree of bias, but it isn’t as terrible as others and requires context. As far as science goes,
  WP:WEATHER uses Fox News quite a bit in news reports, and they’re usually accurate. 74.101.118.197 (talk
  ) 16:08, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status Quo per Springee and my reasoning in the previous RfC, it is a standard NEWSORG and its current status is not causing issues for our sourcing purposes.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 23:10, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
• Deprecate or Downgrade if deprecate does not have enough support. I try to avoid commenting about political topics, but the principal problem here is not actionable on the axis of left-right political bias. The essential issue is one of reliability, the purpose of this forum. We frequently discuss a well-documented pattern of lack of reliability on Fox News. Much has changed since the last measurement of this source, as evidence shows. Is this pattern of unreliability due to gross incompetence? Malicious intent? Of a demonstrated business model which appears to coordinate diverse outlets in order to affect political ends by repeatedly presenting deliberate falsehoods, in order to discredit positions which oppose the current political objectives of the business? Acting on the axis of reliability, most wikipedians seem okay with political side-taking, but reject the repeated pattern of deliberate falsehood issues, as documented in already presented evidence. BusterD (talk) 04:55, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo as news content is generally reliable. Commentary and opinion content is, of course, non-objective.
  talk
  ) 06:15, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

*Upgrade or Downgrade CNN and MSNBC - FoxNews not reliable but neither is CNN nor MSNBC. John Stossel pointed this out in his video on wikipedia bias. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiRgJYMw6YA.

The confidence in the Media is plummeting. If wikipedia wants to stay relevant, it needs to fairly recognize that Fox News, CNN and MSNBC are all biased.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/08/30/partisan-divides-in-media-trust-widen-driven-by-a-decline-among-republicans/ RaySmall88 (talk) 13:22, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

• CNN and MSNBC are outside the scope of this RFC. If you want to downgrade CNN and MSNBC, open separate RFCs for each of them. Besides, as many editors have reiterated many times before, this RFC is not about the political leanings of Fox News, but about its problems with reliability. CNN and MSNBC may be biased, but they are generally reliable as far as reporting is concerned, and they do not distort facts to fit their beliefs. The same cannot be said for Fox News, as the evidence below shows. {{u|Bowler the Carmine}} (he/him | talk) 16:27, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

• RaySmall88, we do not deprecate sources because of bias. All sources have some sort of bias, and that's okay. When the bias is so extreme that they consistently make errors, not as a "bug" in the system, but as "feature" of their editorial policy, we deprecate them. That is the case with Fox News and all Murdoch media, but is not the case with CNN or MSNBC. Too much carelessness and sloppiness get a source "downgraded", whereas egregious and systematic "feature" errors (mis- and disinformation) get it deprecated. That's why Fox News, as a propaganda source, should be deprecated. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:29, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

::*:User:valjean, I believe that is WP:Cherrypicking. CNN's journalistic standards were nonexistent in its progapanda coverage of Andrew Cuomo by his brother Chris Cuomo. MSNBC's conduct of the Rittenhouse trial was tantamount to jury tampering. Again, the lens through which we look will dictate which source is reliable. All 3 are unreliable. RaySmall88 (talk) 17:35, 20 August 2022 (UTC) _{RaySmall88 is a sockpuppet of a blocked user. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 11:58, 7 September 2022 (UTC)}

• Status quo. Due to the primacy of this source for American Politics, downgrading it would be detrimental to Wikipedia's neutrality, making it difficult to cover what is being said on both sides of the aisle. Like with most other sources, the reliability of this source should be determined on a case-by-case basis. ScrumptiousFood (talk) 17:56, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo, at least for politics. The documentation of relatively frequent errors (even if some were later corrected) clearly precludes an upgrade. On the other hand,
  standards on scientific sourcing already prevent this from being an issue. I don't remember seeing Fox News cited for anything to do with climate (whereas I do remove Guardian articles often, which as a biased lay source also makes frequent errors). The climate denial I found was all in quotes, rather than in "Fox Voice", which makes it less likely that it finds it way into Wikipedia. Femke (talk
  ) 12:25, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
• Deprecate or Downgrade to no politics - Front and center on the Fox News site at this moment, three stories claiming Biden was involved in the Mar-a-Lago search – despite no evidence. The respected journalists have left. Most of Fox News is now masks don’t work, vaccines are bad, Democrats are Socialists (and pedophiles), Ukraine belongs to Russia, Democrats want the country to be non-White, and still stories about Hillary. I know some shows are commentary and some news. But looking at their schedule, there is very little in the way of news. Comparing this to the NYTimes, which Atsme says should be downgraded, we see a newspaper where the A section has only two pages of editorials and op-eds, which include Conservative viewpoints. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:04, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Since I commented on the current contents of the Fox News site; I should also mention CNN, which Atsme said was the same, but on the left. Their major stories are at the upper-left of the site. They have several at the moment about how bad it is in Afghanistan after Biden’s withdrawal, including an article titled: “Opinion: Biden's Afghanistan exit decision looks even worse a year later”. I guess CNN is an anti-Biden network. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:52, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Could you link to those articles? I looked at the home page and didn't see articles that appear to fit that description (who knows how quickly they refresh the page). Anyway, it would be helpful to look at the specific claims. Springee (talk) 23:22, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Gone now. Now they're ranting about clean energy. One of the articles contains a claim that the baby formula shortage is Biden's fault -- not the unsanitary conditions in a major formula plant that caused a shutdown. On the right, it says "Average Gas Prices per State" and appears to say that most people in the US are, as of this day, paying $6.311 per gallon. O3000, Ret. (talk) 23:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

A search for articles on the site shows this one under "Lifestyle"[1] which does not mention Biden but mentions supply chain issues and the pandemic. Another here with no mention of Biden[2]. There's a clearly-marked opinion piece here[3] where the author urges the Biden Administration (as FDA is under the executive branch) to invoke the Defense Production Act, but no specific criticism of Biden himself. This article[4] is about media coverage of the baby formula shortages and how often major news networks mentioned Biden and his administration in their reporting. But it also contains the sentence: "Supply chain issues from the COVID-19 pandemic created limited availability of many products, including baby formula. The problem became worse when Abbott Laboratories, a top baby formula provider, recalled some products and closed a plant following an FDA probe." Could you provide a link to the news (not opinion) article that has the specific claim you cited? One where Biden is blamed and the plant shutdown is not? BBQboffin (talk) 01:34, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not talking about a search of the site or lifestyles. I'm talking about the main articles which they put at the top center. They are supposedly about clean energy; but veer off in other directions. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:47, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

This is a discussion about whether of not we can use the articles on the foxnews.com website as an RS or not. What articles the website promotes at a given time "top center" is not relevant, neither is a gas price widget which is at best a headline, which can't be used anyway per WP:HEADLINES. And again, if you can please provide a link to your claim that "One of the articles contains a claim that the baby formula shortage is Biden's fault -- not the unsanitary conditions in a major formula plant that caused a shutdown", we then could verify that claim of yours. Or if you were mistaken about that claim, consider striking out your text above. BBQboffin (talk) 01:06, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I wonder if this is a regional thing. On their home page I see no references to baby formula. A search in their search bar for "baby formula" shows the most recent article was from a month back. I'm not sure if that is based on relevance or latest. Anyway, this seems like the sort of thing where the basic facts could be correct but the relative weight etc could be biased. Absent seeing the article and claims I'm not sure we can decide it means something is sound or not. Springee (talk) 01:37, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Someone explain this if I'm missing something. The Fox News site now indicates that gas is averaging $6.309 in most places in the US. The reference is AAA, without a link, but there is nothing like that on the AAA site. In fact, I can't find any high near that level anywhere. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:06, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Down to 3.90 for a regular [30] - can you link the $6 link on the Fox site, I cannot find it?Andre🚐 00:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Unless I'm missing something; it's on the main page every day on the right. [31] O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:21, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes you're right. My ad blocker was blocking it at first, but it's not an ad. Here's a screenshot of it: [32] Andre🚐 00:28, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm also seeing 6.309 on foxnews.com. The possibilities are that there is a technical glitch in the feed from gasprices.aaa.com or a mistaking in coding the graphic on foxnews.com or a manual (intentional?) intervention on foxnews.com. Schazjmd (talk) 00:29, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

can you post links to these articles? I'm not seeing them but that could be a regional thing. Springee (talk) 00:25, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

It's on the right bar, under the weather widget. [33] Andre🚐 00:30, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I think that is saying the gas in the dark red areas is in the $6 range, not the average. Not sure why the full range isn't showing but that price does line up with California u prices. Springee (talk) 01:11, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but can we drop this glitch excuse. It is updated every day. Here is the page exactly one month ago claiming it was $6.543 for most people. [35] That wasn’t the average in any state. Has it ever been? And I see nowhere on the cited site that provides a number close to that for any kind of fuel. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I see the issue I was having before. I was checking on a tablet, not a computer. Even in desktop mode the website was deciding my display wasn't wide enough to show the fuel prices. Anyway, first, the map does not claim the $6 price is an average. It does appear the color scale is not generating correctly, That's sloppy but noting more since the colors on the map itself appear to correspond to the prices in the states. The map title clearly says see the average prices per state and when you hover over the a state it appears to show accurate information (presumably linked to some database). This is basically non-evidence. The heat map works but the code that auto updates the scale is bad. That certainly does not justify downgrading Fox or claiming they are trying to mislead. Springee (talk) 02:39, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Whether or not this graphic is in scope - and I'd say it is, because the RFC was the FoxNews.com news website, and it's an infographic, not a headline - the number is incorrect, sourced to AAA, and it doesn't appear to match. $6.309 appears to be completely novel, doesn't match any state. And as O3000 points out, they've continued to update this inaccurate map for a while. There's no requirement to AGF of news outlets, and it happens to fit in with their stories of Biden's high gas price crisis despite gas having been dropping for a while. Andre🚐 02:53, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

What number is incorrect? That number is an indicator on a heat scale. It could be $10 and the map would still be correct. That number is not the average price across the US. Also, there is no evidence that the map is incorrect, that when one hovers over any state that the average reported price for that state is in error. This isn't a question of AGF. An error in the code that generates a heat map scale is not a lie or misinformation. Springee (talk) 03:38, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Seriously? The chart is about averages. The number is in the middle of the red area. But, the number is higher than any state. If the reader realizes that the map has hot spots, they can see the real, hidden numbers. But this grossly, exaggerated number is prominently displayed and has been updated every day. Here it is three months ago claiming the price was $6.49. [36] The new center top articles this morning are about a man with a blade attacking a Republican candidate and being released. But reported by RS, it was a drunk, Iraq veteran who didn’t know who the candidate was and the “blade” was a keychain shaped like a cat with plastic ears intended for self-defense, not an assassination attempt with a knife or blade as depicted here. Assassin or assassination attempt is in this one article five times. O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:11, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Seriously. This is the scale on a heat plot. That it's got an error in how it's generated is clear but to claim this is Fox trying to mislead is quite a stretch. To claim the number is meant to be an average of anything is again quite a stretch. I'm not seeing anything in that article that suggests gross errors that would justify a downgrade. Perhaps you can post it in the discussion section to get more eyes on it. Springee (talk) 11:46, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

The title says average. The number is in the middle of the red bar. The number is higher than every state. The number is updated daily and has been for over three months. That’s over 90 errors. How can you claim outright that this is a clear error in how it's generated? (Somehow uncaught for months) And do you really believe a judge released an attempted assassin on his own recognizance? How many excuses are you going to make for repeated exaggerations in what you believe to be a reliable source for an encyclopedia? Look at the site now. It is purely an attack site. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:02, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

The title says, "See Here: Average US had prices per state". No where does it claim the number you are referring to is an average. The other article should be discussed separately. Springee (talk) 12:51, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Have you ever used software that creates heat maps (Matlab, ANSIS etc). Often the values applied to the heat map scale are auto generated. A common gotcha when using such plots is to verify that the auto generated ranges make sense for the data you are trying to display (ie don't make a failing strain load show as green). For what ever reason, the company that is actually hosting that plot for Fox has an error in their script, or Flourish Studios, the company that is actually hosting and generating the content has the error [37]. I'm not an expert, or even a amateur in web coding but it looks like the ends of the scale have been hard coded with $8 as the upper bound and $3.822 as the minimum. That would explain why the scale is so messed up. Not great but that is hardly an excuse to downgrade the company. Springee (talk) 14:22, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Not seeing any verification this was an error or that Foxnews didn't knowingly publish the misrepresentation. SPECIFICO talk 14:54, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't see a misrepresentation. It would be like a map of the US with a scale that was inappropriate to the size of the country. I don't think we would claim a map maker is misrepresenting something if the scale on a map of the US showed just 1 mile when the width of the map is about 3000 miles or a map of Washington DC that shows a scale of 100 miles and thus extends off the edge of the screen. Those scale errors can't reasonably be taken to suggest the US is just a few miles across or DC is over 100 miles across. That is effectively what is being argued here. Springee (talk) 15:03, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes I have used such software on multiple sites and have never seen an error like this. And this is an extremely highly viewed site, with the error going back at least five months on the main page. If not purposely misleading, like other articles on the main page that you won't discuss, it is sloppy beyond belief for a news source to be used by an encyclopedia. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:12, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Do I think it's sloppy work to have that error? Yes. Do I think it's an intent to suggest average gas prices are over $6/gallon? No. That's really all we need to say about it. If you want to discuss the other article please do so in a discussion about it vs gas prices and we can let others join in. I would be happy to offer some input there but so far what I'm seeing is you don't like the bias (something I sympathize with) but you haven't shown factual errors etc. That is, you haven't shown anything that justifies downgrading to below, "use with caution". Springee (talk) 17:58, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, as far as your assumption that the daily gas prices have been wrong for over five months in the direction that fits the Fox bias is a glitch; I’m not willing to accept that this isn’t purposeful. And if it isn’t purposeful; it’s an egregious, long term error that casts doubt on reliability. As far as your claim that factual errors haven’t been shown (other than gas prices I guess); does that mean you believe Fauci funded experiments behind the Wuhan lab leak (that didn’t happen) and is a criminal, or the months of attacking vaccines and masks and pushing the narratives of election fraud are accurate, or that a NY judge just released someone who attempted to assassinate a candidate with a knife? A quick glance at the site over a few days makes it abudently clear that it is an attack site that doesn't appear to care whether statements are false. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:18, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I didn't say the averages have been wrong. As far as I can tell the averages when you hover over any state are correct. I said the heat scale appears to have a coding error so it doesn't render correctly. If you want to talk about other what ifs and what do I think about this article or that please list the article in the discussion section so editors can review your concerns. Springee (talk) 19:30, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

You continue to state as fact your guesses. That's a poor way to evaluate RS. Well, it's been continuously wrong for over five months, even though updated daily; but it doesn't matter. And I am allowed to give examples of horrible misinformation in this section. Although, no reason to bother anymore as you have your own "facts" about some software glitch, even claiming it is unreasonable to think they would not tell the truth. Hey, they only stopped spreading lies that George Soros and the Venzuelans were behind voting machine fraud when they were sued for a billion+. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:34, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Which is more likely, Fox is deliberately creating a heat scale that is messed up while posting two numbers, one over the national average, one under yet the state by state results are correct or this is a code error of some type? Springee (talk) 22:22, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Springee, with It would be like a map of the US with a scale that was inappropriate to the size of the country you are

Magasump Wash, you'd have no idea whether the map was accurately showing a 10 km wide space vs.100 km wide. Few Foxnews users keep tabs on the price of fuel outside their local region but many are quick to notice a graphic that suggests it may be alarmingly high. SPECIFICO talk

19:15, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't misrepresent, it just wouldn't be useful. Let's assume I have a map of the US that is 1 meter wide. I put a scale on it that shows a 1mm long line and says that line equals 3 miles. Absent giving you a ruler and stating 1mm=3miles it's not very helpful if you want to estimate the distance between two cites. However, it is still correct. If the map also includes lines between cities with distances on them then you can still get good information off the map even if the scale is effectively useless. That is what we have here. The heat map is rendered in a way that compresses the low side range. It's clear the scale is messed up and the two prices on the scale are to help you read the scale, not to tell you what the national average is. Else, we could claim the lower number was the national average but that wouldn't support the "anti Biden narrative". But beyond that, the numbers when you hover over the states appear correct (no one has claimed otherwise). Also the relative colors on the map indicating lower and higher cost states appear correct. That circles back to the primary point, claiming this coding error is somehow intentional or proof that Fox is trying to spin things etc is just not reasonable. Springee (talk) 19:39, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid that is so unresponsive -- and so repetitive, even compounding the error in your argument that several editors have explained above -- that your posts will simply be disregarded by whoever closes this RfC. SPECIFICO talk 20:53, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree, this whole back and forth has been very repetitive. As for how much impact this gas map will have on the final closing, I guess we can't know unless we ask the closers. My guess would be none. This is is simply not significant enough to make much of a difference. If it's deliberate, it's not obvious enough. If it's an error then it doesn't grossly impact the overall reliability. Several editors is you and O3000 Andrevan but all three already argued for a downgrade. If you really wish to get a wider consensus perhaps you should ask a wider range of editors. Of course, you would have to convince editors that the number was actually meant to be the average and explain why the $3.xxx number isn't meant to be the average with the $6.xxx being perhaps the highest in the survey. You would also have to explain why the state level data is correct etc. That starts to go down the conspiracy rabbit hole. Springee (talk) 22:30, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't want to influence the outcome, just trying to help you give it a valid shot while avoiding time-sink equivocation and empty repetition. That's not your usual style, so I must say I was disappointed to see it. SPECIFICO talk 23:02, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

• Status quo – Not the greatest source for politics, since the source has a strong bias to the right. Better sources should be used if available. If the source is going to be used, the articles need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. All newspapers/networks should not be used for science topics. If used for science topics, newspapers/networks need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. --Guest2625 (talk) 01:40, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade - To put it very simply, Fox's quality as a source has gotten worse recently. If, somehow, the company gets its act together, we should reevaluate its standing. But for now, lets describe it as it is instead of how we wish it was. Grayfell (talk) 04:54, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status Quo This seems a bit of an over reaction to a fact check generally covered under the current RSP commentary. Why would this expand it to other reporting? We should also be wary of making any changes on issues so obviously contentious. This is more likely to spawn edit wars with tu quoque responses than to improve the quality of the project. Squatch347 (talk) 05:50, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status Quo for politics. I agree with a lot of what MHawk10 has written in this thread. For politics, Fox News is
  WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims, and understand context. For "science", I'm not entirely sure what being marginally reliable for science actually means in practice. We absolutely should not use Fox News as a source on what e.g. the science of climate change is, and (as Springee said above) it is absolutely fine for us to use Fox News as a source for their routine reporting on the James Webb Telescope. But we shouldn't use any news org as an authority on what e.g. the science of climate change is, so I'm not sure what that even means in practice. Endwise (talk
  ) 07:41, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo – All news outlets are biased, and Fox is not extreme. Can't deprecate a whole news organization based on anecdotal evidence of misleading content or catchy headlines. Also, repeating an RfC just a few months after a similar one was conducted strikes me as a gigantic waste of editors' energy. — JFG ^talk 09:53, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

  The closer is likely to disregard this !vote for two reasons: 1) RS have been provided that document the failures of Fox as RS for news, invalidating "anecdotal". 2) "Bias" is a straw man. The issue that's been raised is willful falsification, e.g. in matter of the Seth Rich conspiracy theory. JFG, given your former participation in American Politics editing, where these issues were extensively discussed, one would have thought you remained aware of these facts. SPECIFICO talk 14:43, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  The Seth Rich issue is a matter of one person likely making false claims that Fox News did not initially followup on checking, but later redacted the story with the admission they failed to check their sources. That is not the falsification if the Daily Mail kind. Yes,fishy as check and the redaction was likely promoted by threat of lawsuit, but it was redacted nevertheless. Masem (t) 15:02, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  In other words,

  WP:MANDY. Fox pounded that story and made claims that no reasonably informed journalist would have taken at face value. Just look at the talk page of our article and see how many WP editors, presumably careful editors, took the conspiracy theories at face value, even after Fox's tepid retraction. SPECIFICO talk

  16:39, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  Fox's bias showed in full force and made them quietly turn tail and issue the redaction, but this type of on-the-spot that fits the works's views is not isolated to the right... Just that most of the time the is clear attempts to corroborate details. For example the amount of speculation from left leaning media in the FBI search of Mar-a-lago, or even the situation at the Indigenous Persons Parade in 2019. Mind you, most of the type they are very careful to not express their speculation as fact, but even when wtong, they still redact details.

  But in the bigger picture, we should never be rushing to include the speculation of any RS unless backed up by other sources corroborating details. eg we can say the day it happened that the FBI had searched and seized material from Trump, but we should not include any of the wild guessing that was going on in the left media. It took a few days to affirm it was related to classified documents and not, for example, evens of the Jan 6 investigation. We should have been doing the same with the Seth Rich issue ( no idea if we did or not). Waoting for the media to eventually come to a consensus on reasonings for events for a few days is the way we shoukd be editing. Masem (t) 16:55, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  I don’t know what left wing sources say because I rarely read them. I read the NYT and CNN, which have consistently said they expected to find classified and non-classified docs owned by the gov’t. Which turns out to be absolutely correct. Here’s the Fox News legal analyst today name-calling, saying the DOJ can’t be trusted, insulting the judge in the case, assuming anything in Trump’s favor was redacted. [38]. I don’t think we should use any right-or left-wing source and have always said MSNBC shouldn’t be used, even though I’ve not known it to devote so much time spreading absurd conspiracy theories. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:45, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  That clip is from Fox & Friends: talk show, not news. Levivich 19:52, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

What is the news program? Not being snarky -- it's a serious question. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:44, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

An hour after 11pm and three hours on weekends? O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:14, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I forgot America's Newsroom weekdays at 9am for 2 hrs. Levivich 21:19, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

How many cites are to these scant hours in Wikpedia? O3000, Ret. (talk) 03:34, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

All cites to Fox News in Wikipedia these days are to the news, because the talk shows are already not citable per prior RFCs. This RFC is about whether to also make the news shows not citable. Levivich 00:38, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

• CNN, a well establish left leaning news org, suggested a connection to Jan 6 (but also identified the national archive and the election interference too) on the day it happened: amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/08/08/politics/mar-a-lago-search-warrant-fbi-donald-trump/index.html they carefully did not say anything to be an absolute connection, but that would still be something that we'd not include. Masem (t) 20:06, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I see no connection. CNN said that the DOJ has two active investigations, and named them. That is, CNN specifically said that was a different investigation. OTOH, it gave a great deal of space to claims by Trump and Republicans. That's the way a balanced article should be written. As for left-leaning, I'd say it was right-leaning by European standards and regularly takes Biden to task. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:37, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Not the Pew study again. It has been knocked down so many times in the last few years in WP. Who watches what is not a sign of bias. CNN and Fox aren't even in the universe. The constant stream of lies about masks, vaccines, the election. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:18, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• Masem, your comment is thoughtful and constructive, but the !vote that launched this thread was neither of those, and it seems to be supported by straightforward misrepresentation. SPECIFICO talk 19:32, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  We clearly want to avoid sources that willing produce falsified material and not acknowledge it was fabricated or wrong as has been with Daily Mail, but this has been shown with Fox here. It is easy to try point the finger of purposeful disinformation, but like in the Seth Rich story, that was one person and a hasty network decision they later redacted even though it took a lawsuit threat to do it. Everything discussed has shown Fox has an very active bias and tendency to spin in the manner clickbait, but the objective details of most stories are correct, even if it is a different slice of the details compared to left leaning media. Hence the need to stress that if we are analyzing Fox under this microscope of "misinformation", we should be doing the exact same for other press sources which do the same, just not in the same routine manner as Fox Masem (t) 20:15, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• Upgrade I am convinced of arguments presented by Atsme. I think Fox News has a great fact checking process and outstanding journalistic reputation. I cannot see any credible evidence here regarding the allegation that Fox News systematically publishes fake news. I also think that some of the downgrade arguments presented here use politically biased jargon, which the closer should take into account when evaluating the consensus.--Madame Necker (talk) 15:48, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  @Madame Necker: Oh really? Just do a quick search. Here's a recent example of some Fake News, from two different sources:
  

The Guardian:  Fox News airs false photo of Trump search judge with Ghislaine Maxwell

Business Insider:  Fox News aired a bizarre fake photo replacing Jeffrey Epstein with the judge who signed off on Trump's search warrant

What kind of fact checking goes on there at Fox News? I wonder. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 22:37, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Using a software altered image is not fake news. Most major news organizations do this practice. Madame Necker (talk) 21:51, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

@Madame Necker: umm, LOL seriously? Swapping the face of Epstein with the face of a judge, and artificially creating & constructing a completely false narrative, isn't fake news? Hmmm. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 01:54, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Did you get the impression by watching Fox? I suggest you strike that embarrassing claim. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:57, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Firstly, these refs talk about the talk shows of

The Daily Mail, but saying that others who vote downgrade use (POLITICALLY BIASED JARGON) doesn't really have much evidence, IMO. VickKiang (talk

) 22:13, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but keep in mind that the main page of the Fox News website is repelete with statements and links from and to the talk show videos. That site should never be used as RS. If the site isn't used, how can anyone find these morsels of reliable news in a scant number of hours a week where there is actual news? When a source is 90% opinion (often conspiratorial nonsense) and 10% news; how do you determine what is RS? O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:34, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

• Deprecate is my first choice Downgrade would be second choice. To build on XOR'easter's comment that It cannot be incumbent upon Wikipedia editors to separate good Fox from bad Fox. If something is notable enough other reliable souces should have coverage on it well. I cannot imagine something meetin criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia only because of its coverage on FOX. It is easier, simpler, and better to just deprecate it. KSAWikipedian (talk) 15:28, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo. It would probably be better to separate "science" Fox from "politics" Fox, and declare all popular-media discussions of science to be unreliable in higher-class articles. Thus, I don't really have an opinion as to "science" Fox. As for "politics" Fox, I have seen little evidence in the survey, and what of the discussion I have read, that would lead me to believe that this RfC should have a different outcome from the last RfC. If there is a difference, it is only because of the selection of editors and comments in the current RfC. Fox "politics" articles have not gotten substantially worse since the last RfC such that they should be depreciated compared to other popular-media articles. In general, sourcing to only one site is not good practice, so Fox shouldn't be used as the only basis, but that claim also applies more broadly to other popular-media sites. The only content I have seen expressed as worse-than-usual is Fox's headlines, which we can ignore anyway. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 14:14, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3 - Downgrade:  As mentioned by many others, Fox dabbles in misinformation. Both in regards to politics (election fraud conspiracy theories, for example) and science (downplaying or outright denying the reality of climate change). They certainly are not a fair and balanced media outlet by any means, as evidenced by the perspectives they choose to give more weight to. Fox does however remain a useful source when quoting what certain politicians may have said during interviews and etc. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 19:01, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

  "Dabbles in misinformation" is disinformation. Misinformation is accidental, disinformation is intentional. -- GreenC 22:54, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

• Downgrade - Sites that intentionally engage in disinformation, as Fox does according to multiple reliable sources and ex-employees, use techniques. One is to post 100% reliable stories to give the viewer confidence it is a trustworthy source. They then intermingle unreliable stories. It's a trojan horse approach. RT America did the same. Thus it's true there is reliable content on Fox, but, when it comes to politics and science (which is politics to Fox) the entire site is inherently a problem, discerning what is real or not is not exact. -- GreenC 22:50, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

  Agreed. The Fox News strategy is one in which they don't want to be portrayed as overtly disseminating disinformation, so they will on occasion claim that mistakes were made, or that a doctored photograph was a "joke" or whatever. And yes, sprinkling in reliable stories is another way to give them the veneer of credibility. Good points. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 23:50, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

  The doctored photograph was featured on Fox's televised talk shows, which is already off limits as a source on WP. This discussion is about Fox's website's coverage of politics and science. X-Editor (talk) 02:04, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, I know. But this is also a good example of the low-quality Fox News editorial standards, and lack of fact-checking capacity. You are aware that foxnews.com embeds video segments from their televised programming, and includes that content as part of their news articles, correct? Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 02:29, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

  That still doesn't matter, because we're talking about Fox's articles, not video segments posted on Foxnews.com. X-Editor (talk) 20:49, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

  But the video segments are embedded within the articles. The content is mixed together & combined. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 01:48, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

  Then don't rely on the videos as a source. If the content is mixed together in the text of the article, don't rely on that either. But there are plenty of articles on Fox's website that do not rely on content from Fox on TV. X-Editor (talk) 05:23, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

• Status quo. below, I asked for examples of problematic uses and editing disputes related to them - in other words, disruptive usage that would be prevented by this change. Of the examples provided, none support downgrading the rating, as the references appear reliable for the content they support and the objections appear to be based solely on the fact that Fox News is the source.

I am also convinced by the arguments that downgrading it would damage our ability to present certain topics from a

neutral point of view; given the fact that downgrading it would not address any identified problem, and would in fact cause an NPOV problem, I don't believe such a decision can be justified and I must oppose it. BilledMammal (talk

) 02:47, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

I have also asked for examples of where this is leading to bad content in article space, but haven't seen anything presented. Without that this is a solution in search of a problem. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:36, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

See the recent example Andrevan added relating to if Fox can be used to say a letter objecting to some recent legislation exists.[39] It seems the arguments happen because Andrevan is acting as though RSP says Fox is red rather than yellow (never mind the facts of the article in question, color is all that matters). Springee (talk) 22:45, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

"the objections appear to be based solely on the fact that Fox News is the source." This is a very good point that I hope the closers of this RfC take note of. Most disputes regarding Fox's use as a source in certain instances are based solely on the fact that it is Fox and not the source being inaccurate, which is what really matters. X-Editor (talk) 20:46, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

That's because Fox is synonymous with inaccuracy. How can anyone know if they're a quality, reliable source, when they also push disinformation? The accuracy of Fox is in dispute because of this unpredictable nature. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 02:03, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

"That's because Fox is synonymous with inaccuracy." citation needed. If there's no indication from other RS that certain content from Fox is disinfo, then we should not assume so. X-Editor (talk) 05:27, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

NPOV would also be a major issue, as there are several instances in which Fox is the only source that reports on certain events and certain aspects of events. X-Editor (talk) 20:48, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

That raises an important question. If Fox is the only one of the major news networks to cover a story is that because they are wrong/the story isn't important or is it because they have a different perspective and we may be neglecting an important perspective if we don't include it? I'm sure it's not the latter in every case but suggesting its never true also seems suspect. Springee (talk) 22:50, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

I wonder what major national or world events would occur, where Fox News is the only one reporting on it? I have my doubts about this. Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 02:03, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Likely none. However, not all of our articles are about major national or world events. Springee (talk) 03:58, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Good point. This is why I think Fox should be downgraded but still available for use as a source when quoting someone they've interviewed in a story, for example. Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 04:08, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Considering how much Fox is used on WP, there are bound to be instances of Fox being the only usable outlet to report on certain stories. X-Editor (talk) 05:37, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

But WP editors are not here to be truth-sleuths. We just convey the WEIGHT of the mainstream. Sad as it is, if Fox or any other source is the only beacon of truth and reality on a given article topic, it will not get much play in our content there. SPECIFICO talk 15:20, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Please, everyone, stop for now. This RFC is already as long as The Adventures of Tom Sawyer already, and people have to read it to close it. If you haven't convinced the other side with 69,000 words of discussion, you probably won't. Take pity on whoever is going to close this. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:26, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Well said on both points. I'm no fan of Fox News but your second point here is crucial. Retswerb (talk) 06:25, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

• Downgrade, as Fox News does not have the "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" that
  WP:RS requires. I won't say they're the strongest bits of evidence, but the ones thsat have stuck with the me the most during this lengthy discussion have been

  • The use of doctored and faslely captioned images in coverage of unrest in Seattle. Fox didn't even get its apology right the first time, as it was still maintaining that the photos in the "collage"—itself a misleading term for the illustration—were taken in the same week. (see The Seattle Times)
  • The uncorrected false claim that Fauci "dismissed a study" on vaccine efficacy, when he instead cautioned against using the preprint to guide clinical decisions, echoing the advice of its authors. (see Politifact)
  • The whole Seth Rich fiasco. The Fox News story istelf was abhorrently bad, and it was immediately followed by some high-order feet dragging on retracting the story and admitting any wrong-doing. It's made much worse by Fox News insisting in its eventual settlement with Rich's family that the details of the settlement be kept secret until after the 2020 election. (see NPR, New York Times)

  The kind of deep bias that typifies Fox News coverage is not itself disqualifying when it comes to reliability, but no source we consider reliable goes as far in publishing false, misleading, fake information in service of its bias as Fox does. It does not demonstrate willingness to pull in the reins and "get it right" when the topic area is sensitive or raw, like during civil unrest or an election season, or when the stakes for getting things wrong are so high, like during a peak of the pandemic.

  All that said, I oppose deprecation. It's hard to support deprecation when attempts to define what the term means here have failed. When I compare Fox to sources that are presently deprecated, it comes out smelling like my garbage bin: bad, but I know there's worse out there. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs
  ) 04:00, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
• Upgrade or Status quo generally reliable and use known experts and commentators. Certainly institional to a large portion of the American and global public. Roughly analogous to CNN, just on the other side. Both should be treated the same IMO.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:01, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
• Upgrade. Claiming that FOX News is generally unreliable for factual information isn't just false, it's absurd. It should be obvious that it's the only major broadcaster that even covers many important stories that our almost exclusively left-leaning media prefer to ignore—deprecating it will effectively help censor an enormous volume of entirely verifiable information and do grave institutional harm to Wikipedia. Deprecation should be reserved for organizations that deliberately publish misinformation, and this trend for wielding it as a political cudgel has put us on a terrible path. This crap isn't just maddening—even more, it's deeply saddening. Please, fellow editors, don't destroy our encyclopedia over your personal politics. ElleTheBelle 16:18, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

  @ElleTheBelle: But why upgrade Fox? Is there anything to show that they have actually made improvements to their fact-checking capacity or editorial policies? I don't see any evidence of that. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 18:51, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

  @ElleTheBelle: Please note the lack of evidence provided in your comment and your blatant appeal to emotion. Saying "Deprecation should be reserved for organizations that deliberately publish misinformation" while at the same time supporting an upgrade for Fox News (remember those election lies?) and presenting no evidence to support your stance doesn't seem to be convincing. Nythar^T.C 14:48, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

• Downgrade, mostly per Andrevan's evidence. I have serious reservations about all TV news and opinion shows, and I value the many hard-working right-leaning Wikipedians I've met over the years ... but those subjects aren't under discussion here. This is about Fox. - Dank (push to talk) 02:50, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo per Mhawk and BilledMammal. Editors have presented convincing evidence that Fox is known to publish biased articles, and, on some occasions, false information. This is a good reason not to consider it a generally reliable source and to treat its articles with additional scrutiny – i.e., the status quo as it stands. It is not a reason to quasi-prohibit its use to source uncontroversial facts. – Teratix ₵ 03:49, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade or Deprecate - Fox News, the website as well as the TV station, has a well-evidenced tendency (see sundry comments above and below) to push stories that are not well-founded, represent a known and predictable political agenda that overshadows the general idea of news reporting, and which serve to mislead the audience and cloud rather than clarify public debate.
  WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments about other sources are irrelevant here; we are not surveying opinions of MSNBC or whatever, but only the Fox news website. And the simple truth is: if a story is reliable, it will appear on a more reliable platform than Fox. GenevieveDEon (talk
  ) 09:39, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade we can almost always find better sources for what Fox reports on and the risk of letting users determine what is "good" and what is "bad" Fox News is high. We should generally avoid it. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 11:36, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
• Deprecate. If they actually say something that is accurate & true then there will be better sources anyway. If there aren't then it shouldn't be here. Either way they are like the UK Daily Mail, untrustworthy. --AlisonW (talk) 17:19, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
• Deprecate or Downgrade if deprecate does not have enough support. Agree that if they do the unusual thing of being accurate, there will be better sources that can be used instead. While it's also true there is bias on other channels and other programs that are more correctly called "news outlets", there is overwhelming consensus that FOX is "entertainment" and propaganda, not journalism. -
  ☼
  19:23, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
• Sorry , but I haven't had time to read all of the comments above, but I think that Fox News should be downgraded along with all other news sources. They are in general primary sources and should be used with extreme caution per
  Phil Bridger (talk
  ) 19:45, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo. I've found, in my experiences, Fox generally publishes factual information on non-political topics. Fox's publications show bias, but not in ways I would consider edging on falsehoods (again, non-politics). There is a real issue of politics and science reliability from Fox, especially from the cable news segment, and unambiguous falsehoods from the talk shows. Political and scientific information can be used from Fox, with careful attention to avoid biases. Closer attention should be made towards the affiliations with 24/7 and cable news networks as a result of this discussion. Those with cable news branches present more shaky reliability, bias, and a great amount of political tension. Traditional print outlets that are a part of news networks suffer from decreased perception of reliability due to the association (e.g. CNN's cable news to Republicans diminishes CNN's online publications), but important to us they are affected by the internals of the company in a real way. The parent company's decisions are not about pure journalism—unlike other outlets like Reuters—they are split between cable, traditional journalism, and sometimes entertainment (thanks, corporate consolidation!). So, back to Fox, its journalism isn't isolated from the cable programs, and this is what I believe to be the cause of Fox's shaky reliability on politics and science. The status quo is a middle ground between allowing all of it to be grouped as reliable, questionable, or unreliable when the internals of Fox don't reflect one encompassing evaluation. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) SWinxy (talk) 20:33, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
• Deprecate or Downgrade Fox themselves claim that Fox News is not news but rather entertainment. Except in very limited cases, such as quotes of what someone (themselves newsworthy) said on one of their programs, my view is that citations from Fox are not acceptable when reliable sources are needed. I did not participate in previous RFCs on this topic or I would have been advocating for this then. Disclaimer, this RFC was mention in the admin's newsletter, which is how I became aware of it. Deprecate is my first choice but I would accept Downgrade.++Lar: t/c 16:13, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

  I think you are thinking of the defamation suit against Tucker Carlson. Carlson's show isn't covered by this RfC. Also, he used the same defense Rachael Maddow used when she was sued by OAN.  Springee (talk) 17:09, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

  No, I believe it's broader than that. Endemic, in fact. ++Lar: t/c 16:17, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

  Do you have any citations for this? Springee (talk) 23:52, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

  Citations for my view? You'll just have to take my word that "my view is that citations from Fox are not acceptable when reliable sources are needed" is indeed how I feel about this matter. You're digging in very infertile ground. ++Lar: t/c 15:48, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

  What I mean is you claim that Fix says their news is actually entertainment. That is quite a claim and this I was interested in seeing the evidence supporting it. Springee (talk) 15:55, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

  I find it amazing, and frankly, depressing, that you characterize it as "quite a claim"... It is a pretty widely held view. I found this opinion piece, backed by research, that makes the case against Fox being "news" nicely. NBC news . See SWATJester, just below me, they sum this up nicely. In short, we don't need Fox News, and including them is harmful, not helpful. In fact, given how most people feel about Fox, merely including them as one of many sources may well lead many folk to consider WP overall less reliable, since it uses tainted sources. ++Lar: t/c 17:07, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

  Note also, you've latched on to a side issue (who said what), apparently because you can't actually counter their endemic uselessness as a news source. ++Lar: t/c 17:09, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not sure if I've ever added Fox as part of an original edit. I have defended their use in some cases. As for "their endemic uselessness", well how am I supposed to reply to an opinion presented without evidence? Springee (talk) 18:31, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

  No, I think the issue is you are making a claim, a rather extreme one, that Fox themselves, don't consider their reporting to actually be news yet you can't back that claim with any sourcing. I can understand pointing to the Carlson/Maddow defense as evidence but in those cases it was a specific legal defense to respective defamation claims in context of a commentary show. To claim Fox internally feels the same about their news programming is quite a stretch. You can say they don't do a good job but to claim they know they are producing entertainment vs news and that is their intent seems like a claim that really needs some sort of backing. "Widely head view" is not the same thing as fact. Plenty of widely held views (carrots help vision, the Ford Pinto was a fiery death trap) are not based in fact or are a distortion of a kernel of truth but taken to a point not supported by evidence. That we don't need Fox, they are harmful etc is your opinion and presented without supporting evidence. Your claim about including Fox discredits Wikipedia can be turned around by people who feel throwing out a major network news sources based on the opinion of some editors can also be seen as undermining the credibility of Wikipedia. Springee (talk) 18:30, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

• Downgrade but the only reason this isn't Deprecate is due to the edge cases. 99% of the time, any topic covered by Fox News can and will be covered by another, more reliable, less bombastic/inaccurate source. However 1% of the time, an article from Fox may be exclusive, or otherwise not covered in sufficient depth elsewhere. Even then, the vast majority of the time, that information will resurface on a better source after a few days, but I can't rule out the possibility that there could be an edge case where it isn't. So while I think Deprecate is actually the correct choice, out of deference to that rare exception, my !vote is for Downgrade. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 17:59, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 - Upgrade Wikipedia desperately needs more balance and there are far worse publications like Slate and others that are considered RS. Canadianr0ckstar2000 (talk) 04:08, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• Deprecate first choice, downgrade is second choice. Fox News itself dropped the "fair and balanced" motto back in 2017. I think that's enough said. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 05:41, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
  • @OhanaUnited: any rationale besides the motto change? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:29, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade on politics and definitely on science. My very best wishes (talk) 18:34, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
  • @My very best wishes: for the benefit of the closer(s) and other participants, could you elaborate on the reasons behind your !vote? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:29, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

I doubt anyone needs it for sourcing science. As about politics, I think this is a "questionable source" meaning that political claims published by Fox News should not be considered a reliable information simply by default. One must check who was the author and cross-verify such info using other sources. I am not saying it should never be used for sourcing. My very best wishes (talk) 18:59, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

• Downgrade. There might be strong exceptions, but I would put the honos on the editor to justify why other higher quality sources couldn't be used, or barring any, why such a source might be used (e.g, routine coverage of a non politics/science event). Fox News has increasingly become even more sensationalist and divorced from factual reporting. In future, the RfC should be more explicit whether we should list the options as Option 3 or as I did, Downgrade. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 19:37, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo or maybe Upgrade I have not seen a very compelling case that they should be downgraded past the usual I don't like it arguments. Changing their motto, biased, or anything to do with headlines is irrelevant to policy. Fact is they still appear to meet our, fairly low bar, of what a RS is. Personally I try to use any other source, just because it saves time with lazy arguments, but that does not mean it is not a RS for things. PackMecEng (talk) 22:01, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade Murdoch's propaganda and disinformation machine. Based upon their politically tinted, innacurate reporting about COVID-19 and vaccinations alone, Fox News has demonstrated that it is willing to change facts to provide their viewers and readers with "what they want to hear", rather than providing factual, objective news reporting. Additionally, I find myself in agreement with some of President Joe Biden's viewpoints (source) about Murdhoch, particularly that Murdoch is "the most dangerous man in the world". North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 05:00, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
• Upgrade - of course, it's hard to prove a negative ("FoxNews.com doesn't make a lot of mistakes"), especially given that they have published literally 10,000s of articles on political and science matters. But I have found them to be reliable, and an important source of information on topics that are ignored by more left-wing sources - the Hunter Biden saga is a good example of this, as Iazyges, YoPienso and others have already noted. Perhaps the best proof is the paucity of good examples in this RfC of Fox News' unreliability - reading through here, I don't think I have seen one example presented of a clear-cut falsehood that was published on their website. Korny O'Near (talk) 14:17, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

  The "Hunter Biden saga" is a canonical example of the sort of stuff Fox goes with that is completely unreliable, not worthy of repeating in this encyclopedia. ++Lar: t/c 15:51, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

  What did they get wrong? Springee (talk) 15:57, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Well, a couple days ago, Fox New site had a prominatly displayed image of Hunter Biden with a Chinese Communist flag filliing the background. It was photoshppoed from Biden at a World Food Program USA presentation not related to China. It wandered down the page over two days and is now gone. The linked article was by a Fox News reporter and editor -- not Tucker Carlson. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:45, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Remember that photographs and other material accompanying any article from any source should not be considered part of the material covered by reliability of the source. Those are not selected by writers and editors, but those from the copy and web publishing areas, and like headlines are not subject to editorial review. That makes for the clickbait problem but that exists at several mainstream sites too, though usually not with photoshopping involved. Masem (t) 17:53, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Please, if CNN or the NYTimes prominently displayed an image of Chelsea Clinton from a charity event photoshopped to include a Chinese Communist flag in the background; there would be a massive uproar. And they're still claiming gas is $6.239. How can anyone pretend this is a news site? O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:03, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

No they are not claiming gas is $6.239 a gallon. Sorry, you keep saying that by you are wrong each time you do. If you want to claim their website is crap because they haven't fixed the index on the gas map, fine but please don't claim they are saying something that just isn't true. Springee (talk) 20:07, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

They have been saying a different number each day for SIX MONTHS always above $6, higher than the average in any state, and you are still claiming this is some sort of bug based on absolutely nothing. You are just making this up. They have made no such claim. If they have such a serous bug, incorrectly reporting a number of great importance to a couple hundred million people, near the top of the main page of a news site -- they should be deprecated. O3000, Ret. (talk) 23:57, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a link for this? Korny O'Near (talk) 02:37, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

KON, I originally missed it since I was looking on a tablet and the gas map only seems to display when you have a wider display. This is a link to the actual map [40]. This was discussed quite a bit around Aug 21. Search for O3000's !vote to see the previous discussion. Springee (talk) 02:49, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. Yes, that looks like some bad coding for the map key. That's an oddly specific thing to base one's whole assessment on. Korny O'Near (talk) 03:16, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect numbers, pushing an anti-Biden position, posted on the front page of the site for over 180 days claiming a source which has no such numbers. And, that's certainly not what I base my whole assessment on. I have posted numerous problems with Fox in the RfC. The Fox News main page for years has looked like a political attack page againnst one political party and has heavily pushed anti-vaccine, anti-mask, and election fraud stories. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:23, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

The numbers by state when you roll over are correct, so its literally just one bad number used for visual scaling purposes. 57% of all stats are made up - that's where that falls into. Also, the front page of CNN at multiple times looks like a political attack page against one political party and heavily pushes pro-abortion, pro-immigration, and pro-gun control stories. (Note: I support these positions but it should be remembered that those are only positions/issues and not truths) But that's no reason to deprecate them. Bias != unreliability, and how a site presents front page/website material is out of the hands of editorial control, so we absolutely should not use that as a metric. Masem (t) 12:35, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Masem, did you really mean to say "pro-abortion" and "pro-immigration"? I'd be surprised, because I generally respect your views as thoughtful minority opinions. Maybe that should be restated or reexamined for a more specific objection? SPECIFICO talk 14:32, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

On a phone, which most people use today, you would have to know to tap on the states as there is no mouse. It’s the only number most people will see. I don’t know what you mean by visual scaling. No state has that high a number – and that number has changed every day, for the last half year, even though there is no such number at the source. As for CNN, it’s site is nothing like Fox’s. I have seen numerous article links on one day attacking Biden. Looking at CNN today, it is remarkably balanced. Fox, OTOH, has numerous stories today attacking one party. Same as every single day. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:31, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• Status quo The current cautionary language and related Wikipedia policies, e.g., NPOV, are good enough. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 16:03, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade: While much of what they publish is not outright wrong, it is too often combined with distortion-by-selection, scatterings of sensationalistic and biased adjectives and sideline commentary, "general blurring of facts and opinions", inadequate attention to careful checking and corrective action, out-of-context presentation and interpretation, improper amplification of low-reliability sources, etc. It is too difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:34, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade For science. From what I've seen most (or all) of their science stories are based on other more reliable sources that should just be used as references instead. Like the top two science articles on their website right now are analysis of a couple of YouTube videos. There's zero reason people can't just cite the original videos in such instances. I'm neutral on using them as a reference for politics though since both sides make good arguments for their position and I don't really feel like picking a side one way or another. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:59, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

  Could you be more specific on what articles you are referring to? Right now the top articles for Science on Fox News are about James Webb telescope updates, Titanic wreckage now have 8k resolution, Fifty foot megalodon sharks mistakenly seen, and update on Artemis 1. The only questionable article is about the menopause tech that may be paid article, but still is not outright lies. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 02:03, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't remember the exact specifics, but one of them was the Titanic wreckage now have 8k resolution "article." Which if I remember correctly was just a video from YouTube of the Titanic wreckage and some random Fox News commentary laid over it. The commentary didn't really add anything that couldn't have been obtained the video itself or somewhere else. Like the "James Webb telescope captures 'Cosmic Tarantula' in stunning new image" is essentially a commentery video by Michio Kaku of information that can be found on more reputable sites like The European Space Agencies. The 0-foot megalodon shark article is just a qoute from a tweet by The Atlantic Shark Institute. What about "NASA funded tech that helps relieve menopause symptoms", which is supposedly by Julia Musto? It happens to be an almost direct copy this press release from NASA. Which apparently they didn't credit. So in the best case Fox Science is serious churnalism. At the worst though they are blatently commiting plagerism. Neither one makes them a reputible source of information. --Adamant1 (talk) 07:21, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

The Titanic 8k resolution is also found in CNN, NY Times, USA Today, Geekwire, Ars Technica, and Independent. The fact that Fox News only added commentaries didn't matter for its reliability, as long as the coverage is factual, it is reliable. The fact that other major MSM also cover it show that it is indeed an event worth covering, no matter what is the source.

Megalodon shark news is also covered by Newsweek, Miami Herald, CNET, MSN. This showed that other MSM also think that it is worth covering.

The fact that JWST update can be found in more reputable sources does not mean that Fox News is not reliable. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 11:04, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

This showed that other MSM also think that it is worth covering. The issue isn't whether the story is worth covering or not. It's if Fox's coverage adds anything useful to the story or not. Especially if whatever they are adding to the story comes at the cost of them also adding false information to it. People have already shown plenty of evidence of them doing exactly that and I don't feel the need to regertitate other people's points. Although I will say that if you can show evidence of Ars Technica doing the same thing and to the degree that Fox has then I'm more then willing to vote for them to be downgraded to if anyone does an RfC related to them. Pointing out other news sources that covered the same story like it's some kind pf counter evidence to Fox's fault as a news outlet is just laughable though. Yeah, news outlets often cover the same topics. And? Got me! --Adamant1 (talk) 23:47, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

By your commentaries such as And? Got me! and Pointing out other news sources ... laughable though. it seems that you are not interested to engage in good faith. I shall not trouble myself and yours further by continuing this line of conversation. Have a good day. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 12:07, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

@SunDawn: Thanks. You to :) --Adamant1 (talk) 04:08, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

• Staus quo or upgrade. I'll say it again - this RFC is poor, rushed and guided by a single editor in a certain direction, and so I hope the closer refuses to take the result of this RFC as the general consensus about Fox on Wikipedia, regardless of what conclusion it is. Status quo or upgrade based on the rationale of other editors as well as the fact that Fox's journalistic standards have not changed enough since the last RFC to warrant a downgrade. Willbb234 16:42, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

  But have their journalistic standards changed enough to warrant an upgrade? 98.155.8.5 (talk) 08:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

That's not what I said. The result of the previous RFC was incorrect. Willbb234 20:26, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

You said to upgrade Fox, but based on what? Saying "on the rationale of other editors" is kinda vague. What has changed with Fox News to warrant an upgrade? Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 00:30, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

• Downgrade Their reporting over the past several years has significantly dropped in regards to accuracy and the ability or even willingness to prevent misinformation being actively pushed in their published articles. Since control over Fox News itself has shifted during that time period and the drop in factual quality of their reporting because of it has been openly noted by various other reliable sources, the reason for the rise in misinformation pushing by Fox is plain to see. It has gotten to the point that any political topic and most science topics, since they largely only cover science when it relates to political views in some way, that they report on is presented in a manner in order to actively disinform and promote wrong information on said topics. Which makes them not a reliable source to use on Wikipedia outsie of directly attributed quotes. But as a source for plain facts, they can't be considered reliable and alternatives should be used at every opportunity. And if there are no actual reliable sources covering a topic that Fox News is, then the base factual accuracy or existence of the topic should be questioned due to Fox News being the only ones covering it. Same as what we do with The Daily Mail.

And I have to say that for any editors above saying Upgrade, their basic editing should be questioned in regards to the quite possibly biased additions they have been making to the project. Because anyone that actively uninformed about Fox News or having active political leaning bias so strong as to support the organization despite their known disinformation in journalism would raise questions of those editors' capabilities to contribute to Wikipedia constructively. Silverseren^C 20:36, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

• Downgrade or deprecate. Their extreme political bias makes them in general an unreliable source. If they say anything true, better sources wil have picked it up. We shouldn't be using sources like this in an encyclopedia. John (talk) 21:52, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
• Comment if Fox is deprecated, wouldn't that mean Fox is deprecated not just for politics and science, but other areas it is found generally reliable in? This should be factored into the discussion, since it's clear its not ending soon.--47.16.96.33 (talk) 22:42, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade to generally unreliable for science and politics – on a number of occasions I've come across Fox News being used as a source for politics and current affairs and been surprised. I believe it's generally accepted among mainstream experts and academics that Fox, the poster child for toxically partisan American media, is so unfailingly skewed it has individually had a significant impact on America's polarisation. I usually spend a few minutes seeing if I can remove it by finding another source. I've read other editors here arguing Fox is acceptable on a "case-by-case" basis for politics & science because it usually gets the most basic biographical facts right, but has "too many uncorrected factual errors to be generally reliable" (I see links below corroborating these frequent "errors"). My view is that Fox News isn't
  academic bias we must accept to remain reflective of mainstream scholarship: we must trust mainstream sources to adjust and accept their mistake. To cite Fox taking an outlier position against the mainstream is very likely to result in contamination with misinformation and fringe views. To expect editors to be capable of determining valid, accurate encylopedic information in a mix of unfailingly skewed fact selection and outright falsehoods is impractical. And a source whose everyday purpose is satiating people who are angry, or making them angry about something new, isn't compatible with a serious, respected encylopedia. I don't support outright deprecation because I don't think there's any need to systematically remove existing links or "prohibit it"; rather, we should be generally be avoiding further use and insisting editors have a higher minimum bar for politics and science sources. I'm not interested in arguments along the lines of "but X is also biased"; in some cases I suspect this is whataboutism, and in some cases it may be valid, but it doesn't change the problem here: unfailing partisanship combined with frequent factual errors. Additionally, arguments such as "Fox is rightwing, so banning it will lead to left-wing bias" are also irrelevant to my stance, as I don't think Fox-style tabloid journalism is appropriate for a tertiary source whatever its political bent, and the mainstream of expertise should be determined by using academic sources (books/journals), not media outlets. Jr8825 • Talk
  04:09, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  Are you sure that Fox is still headlining Hunter Biden? The news you mentioned about Hunter Biden "happy" to introduce business associates is published 4 days ago here which is unlikely to be still the headline of Fox News politics today. The current Politics headline I am seeing now are about border issues, funding bill crisis, insulin price caps, and Trump vs. DOJ. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 15:05, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, it was the leading story when I wrote that comment ~12 hours ago, although it isn't now. If it was published 4 days ago then I see that as further evidence of the obsessive partisanship which I think makes it unsuitable. Jr8825 • Talk 15:50, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• Status quo or upgrade. These attacks on sources based on politics will eventually leave us with nothing to reference. The left will wanna downgrade this, and the right will wanna downgrade that until we have zilch. Huggums537 (talk) 20:28, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  5 albert square and/or Guerillero, isn't this a violation of Huggums537's topic ban? I'm not sure it's still in place, but I likewise never saw that it was lifted. Perhaps one or both of you could clarify, as admins who are familiar with the matter. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 05:09, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not aware it's still in place. 5 albert square (talk) 17:16, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  It was lifted -- Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 18:59, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  Ah, sounds good. Thank you for the clarification! Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 19:43, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

• Downgrade: per FlantasyFlan, Fox has been downgrading itself in recent years and we need to reflect this. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 12:32, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
• Downgrade or Deprecate because Fox has clearly become a political apparatus supporting certain politicians rather than factually reporting. It's quite clear that they can longer be trusted to tell the truth based upon the evidence that has been presented by others here. Noah^Talk 14:34, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo per
  Mhawk10, among others. Also, as Toadspike noted, that we can have so much discussion about this source and little agreement on what everything means is compelling reason to leave Fox exactly where it is: "unclear" reliability. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C
  ) 18:00, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
• Deprecate - I think Wikipedia has finally lost its way, so helping to push it over the edge is the only way to get it back on track. Accelerate. KRLA18 (talk) 06:01, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
• Status quo No one has demonstrated that Fox has declined substantially since the last RfC. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 14:31, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

  I'm replying to you, but also the other participants who've made similar points. Since the last RfC ended in "no consensus", evidence from before and during that discussion is still relevant here. If it had ended differently, it would be more reasonable to say something like, "That old evidence was considered and rejected by consensus in 2020. What new evidence is there?" That's not the case here. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:41, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

• Status Quo it can be misleading at times, as reliable sources state, but no reliable source claims that it is a highly inaccurate news source which can rarely be trusted, and nothing has changed regarding its factuality on the topic. The only reason people want to change the outcome of the previous RfC is because they dislike Fox, which I do too, but that should not cause a bias on Wikipedia. Bill Williams 12:50, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

References