Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Wugapodes

The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a request for bureaucratship that did not succeed. Please do not modify it.

Wugapodes

Final (136/39/7); ended 00:32, 16 June 2022 (UTC) ···

Join WP Japan! 00:32, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply

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Wugapodes (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) – I am nominating myself for the bureaucrat role for two reasons. First, I believe I am qualified for what the role currently is: a group tasked with evaluating consensus at RfA. Second, I believe that the bureaucrat role can be a way to improve RfA, and I would use the role to implement the 2015 RfA clerking consensus which is a task currently lacking crats.

I have closed various large, project-wide discussions including those on RfA and its reform. I have the experience needed to evaluate consensus at RfA. Relevant closures include the 2022 discussion on Bureaucrat activity requirements and phase 1 of the 2021 RfA reform process. I have also commented on how to read consensus in RfAs including my assessment of consensus on the talk page of the most recent crat chat and my 2020 essay on the use of trend lines in assessing RfA consensus. Both have been discussed with current bureaucrats, and I believe my perspective on consensus would be a benefit to the current crat corps.

I believe bureaucrats can be more useful than they currently are, and that by electing more bureaucrats we can improve RfA. The prime example is the 2015 RfC consensus that crats should "deal with the 'hostility' problem" at RfA. When the community was asked how to prevent RfA from being a free-for-all of hostility and incivility, the community only trusted the crat corps to moderate discussions. Because many of our crats are semi-active, there are few crats available when an RfA happens. Those who are around need to maintain neutrality in case of a crat chat, and so are hesitant to clerk until after things get out-of-hand. In the vacuum of crat clerking, other editors have had to step in which caused further conflict. We have a consensus solution, but the problem remains because we do not have enough bureaucrats to cover the workload. With the community's agreement, I would like to take on the crat workload. — Wug·a·po·des 21:35, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Questions for the candidate

Dear candidate, thank you for offering to serve Wikipedia as a bureaucrat. You may wish to answer the following optional questions to provide guidance for participants:

1. Have you read the discussions on when to promote and not promote? What do you understand the criteria for promotion to be?

A: An RfA with 75%+1 support generally passes, and an RfA with 65%-1 support generally fails. In those ranges, crats should promote (or not) unless there is an unusual and compelling reason to doubt the integrity of the discussion (high-volume sock-puppetry or canvassing are clear examples). Inside that range, bureaucrats have discretion depending on their evaluation of consensus. If consensus is sufficiently clear, an individual bureaucrat may close a discussion in that discretionary range (Amanda did so in the 2019 Greenman RfA). More often though, a bureaucrat will hold a crat chat where they ask their colleagues to evaluate consensus and then close the RfA based upon the group evaluation.

I have written about how to evaluate consensus at RfA on the talk pages of crat chats and in an essay. My evaluation of consensus in the Tamzin RfA generated significant discussion and prompted two bureaucrats to engage with the community regarding their rationales. After the crat chat, my evaluation was reviewed positively by a current bureaucrat. Further down on that talk page, I discussed with Avi his method of reading consensus which led to a better understanding of different viewpoints on how much weight bureaucrats ought to give to changes in voting patterns. This is a pet issue of mine, and voting trend lines are the subject of my 2020 essay reading consensus at RfA. That essay likewise prompted discussion among the mathematicians at the crat chat, and Avi provided a thorough review on its talk page.

This is all to say, my views on the promotion criteria are well documented and I think that is more valuable than whatever I could say here. In general, I view the criteria for promotion when in the discretionary range to be general agreement that the candidate will not misuse the tools. If support is luke-warm and opposition is fierce, it is hard to view that as a consensus to promote. If support is enthusiastic while opposition is hesitant, there is an argument that promotion is correct. In cases where both sides are polarized, we'd need to look more closely to see how the discussion unfolded, and the links above are a better example of how I would do so. — Wug·a·po·des 21:37, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2. How would you deal with contentious nominations where a decision to promote or not promote might be criticized?

A: The community appoints bureaucrats to make decisions on RfAs even when that decision might be contentious. That's the duty that comes with the tools. If the correct decision is to promote, I would promote (and the opposite for failed nominations). A good example of how to do this would be Amanda's close of the 2019 Greenman RfA. She closed it more like an RfC and provided the community with an extended rationale of what she saw as a clear consensus. I think that approach struck a good balance between bureaucrat accountability, respect for the candidate's time, and community oversight.

Of course, the reality is that the correct decision doesn't just jump out at us. The benefit of the crat corps is that I could ask other crats for their opinions. By thinking through the issue together we not only are likely to come to the right decision, but it also makes the decision harder to challenge. Having a crat chat is not harmless though, and should not be a tool of first resort. Candidates have pointed out that crat chats can be very stressful and the ordeal distracts editors from other parts of the encyclopedia. It's not straightforward how to weigh these, but I would prefer to ask other crats for opinions unless I was confident that the consensus was clear. — Wug·a·po·des 21:41, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

3. Wikipedians expect bureaucrats to adhere to high standards of fairness, knowledge of policy and the ability to engage others in the community. Why do you feel you meet those standards?

A: Generally I try my best to be fair, and engaging the community is an ideal way to make sure that everyone is on-board with a policy. While I could write an answer detailing how fair and smart I think I am, I doubt that would be very useful. Instead, I think examples of my decision-making and community engagement are more useful:

I started the discussion which
sentiment on binding administrator recall in 2019
to give everyone a chance to talk about the idea and hopefully serve as a spring-board for future policy development.
When I close discussions, I usually try to summarize arguments and relate them to documented policies. This not only helps justify the closure, but the cross-referencing makes the close more useful for future discussions and further policy development. In closing
WP:POLEMIC
policy with the social and historical context of the userbox. The debate was partly about how we can best articulate our community values, and my summary took into account how editors with the same principles might come to opposing conclusions. Framing the discussion in that way helped to explain the consensus that exists even among those who did not get their preferred outcome.
Sometimes editors are in heated agreement and while they may be going back and forth, there is actually a robust consensus underlying the dispute. My closure of a 2021 discussion on interwiki links to commons is an example of how paying serious attention to all sides' concerns can result in a stronger consensus than might appear at first glance. Having to summarize the major concerns, it becomes obvious that participants generally agree on the main principles but disagree on various specifics that are already part of our bot policy. The outcome is stronger and more fair as everyone's concerns are considered and given effect.

— Wug·a·po·des 21:41, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Self-asked question

4. Since renaming was taken from bureaucrats and given to global renamers, the tasks of bureaucrats have been substantially reduced. At the moment, bureaucrats are primarily tasked with closing the rare RfA, participating in even rarer bureaucrat chats, and removing or readding sysop rights on request at the Bureaucrats' Noticeboard. Some editors believe that these tasks are currently done with sufficient speed. If this is the case, why should we elect more bureacrats?

A: This is a question I've asked myself a lot, and my answer for the longest time has been "we shouldn't". Clearly my answer has changed. Over the last few weeks thinking about this question, I have three answers: (1) the bureaucrat corps as a whole is not particularly active in community governance and is not representative of the current editorial community; (2) Crat Chats prolongue the stress of RfA and should be as short as possible, so the more active crats we have, the faster crats can come to a consensus and close the RfA; (3) the current crat corps, with all due respect, has failed to implement the 2015 consensus that crats "deal with the 'hostility' problem" at RfA.

Crats are not representative of the community Many crats have served in that role longer than some editors have been alive. 3 of our 20 crats have served in the role for 18 years, and 12 of the 20 have served for over a decade. Active editors peaked in 2007 and fell until 2014 where it has remained stable since; 7 of our 20 crats have been elected since the start of that stability period. This most recent period however marks increasing gender, racial, and geographical diversity in Wikipedia editors. These editors bring valuable insight and new perspectives to all of our discussions, and have generally helped to move the project forward through participation in discussions and most recently through increasing diversity in our administrator corps. The benefits of these perspectives are not gained in crat chats. With few exceptions, participation is currently limited to editors who represent the community of 10 years ago. Additionally, this means that current editors feel that crats are some special class of editors, a senate or priesthood who we only dust off for crat chats. A crat corps which represents the community ensures that they are responsive to our needs and viewpoints which will reduce conflict when crats do get dusted off.
More crats mean crat chats can be closed faster Candidates who have recently gone through crat chats have spoken negatively of the experience. There are structural reforms that have been considered, but until they find consensus and are implemented, the community and crats should take steps where we can to reduce pain points. One way is to be expedient about closing crat chats, but this is hard when the group comprises 20 people half of whom are semi-active at best. There is additional functional problem: active crats are likely to participate in the RfA. Of the 7 crats elected since 2017, 3 were able to weigh in while 3 others had to recuse. this means that, to come to a consensus, we had to rely on our "reserve" of long-term, semi-active crats. The more active crats we have, the more we have available for crat chats, and the faster they get closed even after accounting for the crats that choose to participate in the RfA. This is currently a rare use case, but reducing the stress of a crat chat is one way the community can make RfA look less daunting and more appealing for candidates who might not get unanimous approval.
2015 RfA reforms have not been adequately implemented and the problem is arguably getting worse. RfA sucks. In 2015 the community had a multi-phase discussion on how to reform RfA. Last year we had another round of reform discussions. I closed the first phase of the 2021 reform where the community proposed and discussed what issues need resolved. Despite the 2015 reforms, hostility remained a top concern of the community. The effects of this are dire: since the 2015 reform proposals, RfAs have continued to fall reaching an all-time low in 2021.
The community identified the hostile atmosphere in 2015 and found consensus for a plan to address it: uninvolved bureaucrats should clerk RfAs. Despite this consensus RfAs are still hostile with little to no crat clerking. Few crats are active enough to watch RfAs day-to-day; those who are often participate in RfAs making them ineligible to clerk; contentious RfAs are likely to go to crat chat and so crats are faced with the choice of recusing from the crat chat or not clerking. Because of our limited number of bureaucrats, the pool of editors available to maintain decorum is small. The effects of this are not simply theoretical: two recent RfAs have led to widely-discussed incivility. Bureaucrats could have (and by community consensus should have) intervened more readily. Instead issues were resolved in ways that arguably led to more problems. In one RfA I attempted to try and maintain decorum, taking an admin action by revision deleting a comment (later upheld by oversighters at AN). In a more recent instance, an uncivil comment was eventually struck after 4 days of discussion, including escalation to ANI (and this RfA was being clerked by our youngest-by-RfA crat).

None of this is to say that I distrust our current crat corps. Quite the opposite. The point I am making is that our community has problems that could be resolved if the community elected more crats who represent our current ideas of how to make RfA a better place. If the community doesn't want me to take on some of that work, I'll be happy without it, but given the evidence I do not believe "no need for new crats" is a sustainable position. Until we pass RfA reforms that actually work, we need to elect more crats who are willing to be engaged in the day-to-day project of making RfA suck less. I believe RfB can be used to expand the role of crats if the community were to elect candidates who state a desire to do things that the community wants. In doing so, those crats can try new ideas, subject to community review at noticeboards or ratified through RfCs. If I'm going to ask others to do that work, I should at least offer to do some of it myself. — Wug·a·po·des 21:45, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Self-asked question

5. How should bureaucrats clerking RfA weigh the need to maintain decorum with the need to encourage free and open debate?

A: I believe RfA is a discussion, not a vote, which in my estimation is a diminishing perspective among editors. I have no problem being in the minority on that issue, but it does inform my perspective on this question; because I believe RfA is a discussion, I also believe that interfering in the discussion is not a something to be done lightly. Editors should have the opportunity to contribute to the discussion and be fully informed as to their colleagues' views. With that said, personal attacks and incivility are corrosive to free and open debate. Editors are unlikely to voice their opinion if they feel they will be harassed or belittled because of it, and so like any large venue for discussion, maintaining decorum is an important aspect of protecting everyone's ability to participate. Having presented and participated in academic conferences, this is not a new debate for me as some senior academics are known for their uncivil or demeaning remarks, and conference organizers have worked to address the chilling effect this has on scholarship. I would use my experience in that area to inform my approach to balancing the need for decorum with the need for free debate:

In most cases, a formal comment reminding the editor of decorum is sufficient. This can be done by a bureaucrat in reply to the comment along the lines of Crat comment: Please remember to keep feedback constructive. Feedback which is unconstructive, needlessly personal, or incivil discourages both the candidate and other editors from considering a future RfA. ~~~~ This makes clear that the comment contributes to a structural problem. It's not just bad for the candidate, it's bad for everyone because it makes it less likely that others will want to try an RfA. It also provides guidance to other editors afterwards so that they consider their words more carefully, hopefully avoiding further problems.
In rare cases where there are significant concerns about the comment but it contributes some value to the discussion regardless, I would build upon our current practice of "moving discussion to the talk page." As it stands, we only move the threaded discussion to the talk page, but the original, sometimes polemic, comment remains. This is generally appropriate where the discussion gets long but the original comment is benign ("oppose: candidate doesn't like the color blue" followed by 75 comments saying that's not a good rationale). When the original comment is not benign, it actually obscures the community's efforts to resolve incivility (see meatball:DefendEachOther). In cases where the original comment has serious problems, I would move the whole thread to the talk page, including the rationale, and leave behind a numbered !vote with the editor's signature followed by a statement that the rationale and discussion was moved to talk. In contrast to straight-up removal, this preserve's the editor's !vote, and other editors can view the rationale in context if they want to without leaving comments lacking in decorum visible on the page.
In the rarest of cases where an editor's comment clearly violates policy, consisting of personal attacks, criminal accusations, or incivil rants unrelated to the candidate, I would remove the comment completely and leave the editor a talk page message warning them about decorum and inviting them to rephrase. I don't anticipate this being used often; ideally never.

These three tools, used appropriately, are concrete ways that bureaucrats can improve the decorum and atmosphere at RfA. They generally maintain the editor's participation in the numerical counts, and generally allow editors to continue discussion without interference. Only in the most severe cases would those principles be compromised. They also leave open the ability for the community to provide adequate oversight for bureaucrat actions in these situations. Editors can raise concerns (like they always do) in reply to a comment, bringing it to the attention of a bureaucrat. Similarly, if a crat moves a comment to talk, editors can review whether that was an appropriate action. Generally we would hope that crats are already in touch with community norms, but in the instances where their judgment turns out to not be perfect it helps to provide guideposts through editorial consensus. — Wug·a·po·des 21:47, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Self-asked question

6. Will you be open to recall?

A: I plan to use a system modified from steward confirmations. Given recent community input at the Bureaucrats' Noticeboard, 5 years seems to be a reasonable term limit for crats. Every 5 years I will have a community consultation on whether I should retain bureaucrat rights with notifications at AN, BN, and the RFA talk page. Following 7 days of discussion, the discussion will close and I will ask other bureacrats to determine consensus through a crat chat. My bureaucrat rights will be removed if a majority of crats believe there is no consensus for me to retain the tools. Ideally other crats would participate as well, and the community may wish to consider making this a binding policy requirement. — Wug·a·po·des 21:48, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Optional question from Barkeep49

7. Only seems fair to ask what do you think of the thoughts Tony and I have expressed about the same person being an arb and a crat? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:59, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A: I'm not convinced by the arguments but that doesn't mean it's unreasonable. There was a discussion at BN in May that touched on arb-crats, and around that time I recall you sharing the same position you do in the comments here (I can't seem to find it at the moment). It was something I certainly considered before deciding to run, but since we're here I obviously didn't view it as a blocker. I'm trying to avoid my usual tendency to be long-winded, but since you asked for my thoughts I may as well give you what you asked for.

The question to start with is why might arb-crats be a problem? You and Tony give slightly different answers but the gist of both seems to be concentration of power in a small number of people. That's a real problem to consider and largely the reason why I don't think the concern should be dismissed out-of-hand. That's not the only consideration, so we need to consider the practical implications.

Let's start with the arguments on their own terms and assume that you're right about arb-crats being a problem that should be resolved. Tamzin, in her comment below, points out what I think is the critical problem I have with that line of argument: if we elect more crats the magnitude of the problem tends to diminish. The number of arbitrators is strictly bounded, but the number of crats is not. So if we accept, for the sake of argument, that arbcrats are a problem, then there is an upper limit to how bad the problem can get. When considering the arbcrat-to-crat ratio, if the focus is on limiting the numerator (arbcrats) we have to accept a new problem: either we lose qualified crats or we lose qualified arbs. The alternative, focusing on increasing the denominator (crats), resolves the problem without introducing collateral effects on the quality of the arbitration committee or crat corps.

This all assumes that arb-crats are a problem to be solved which I'm not convinced of. For example, consider Tony's argument: Regardless of whether or not the individual is trusted, being part of a small group in frequent communication encourages group think in discussion. This discussion between you and me is already a counter-example: we are both on the committee and manage to disagree just fine. I would say that of the members of the Arbitration Committee, you are the on I am most frequently in contact with, and despite that we still manage to disagree rather profoundly on various issues. The potential for group-think should be acknowledged, but clearly it is not so strong a tendency that an arbcrat would be unable to think independently; I manage to do so right now without the crat bit.

To your point, Arbs also being crats is bad for the social fabric of our project in how it concentrates high level permissions into a small group of people. I prefer a far more egalitarian version of Wikipedia. I'm also not moved to consider this a problem as you've framed it. To be up front, I also share an egalitarian view of Wikipedia and have successfully unbundled a niche admin tool, reviewed and reversed old protections so that non-autoconfirmed editors can improve pages, and was the one who added unprotection reasons to the protection interface drop-down. I point these out because those are the areas that I believe present the greatest threat of centralized power. The number of arb-crats is not a coincidence: the cursus honorum to RfB or ACE is incredibly selective and at various points brutal. It is a leaky pipeline, and by the time we get to RfB or ACE we are only left with a handful of editors willing to put up with it all. Arb-crats are the result of a system that actively discourages users from seeking advanced permissions. My explicit goal in requesting RfB is to make RfA suck less, and I believe that will do more to resolve the problem of power centralization than not electing arb-crats would.

With all that in mind, I considered the potential opposition due to concerns around arb-crats and did not see them as blockers. I still don't, but I can understand why someone would. Ultimately that just means it is something for the community to decide. — Wug·a·po·des 04:15, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Optional question from Dolotta

8. What consensus assessment are you proudest of?

A: I put my "best" in my answer to question 5, but while I'm proud of all of my closes, I think I'm proudest of the

WP:COMMONNAME and it was a really interesting discussion to read because of the debate over that guideline. I think I did a good job summarizing the debate, and I'm particularly proud of how I managed to explain the commonname guideline. It also sticks out in my mind for what happened afterwards. It was endorsed at move review which is always a nice confirmation, but it apparently also made the news in Ukraine making it my most noticed close. It also came to mind following the Russian invasion of Ukraine this year; given the coverage from English-language sources, I think it confirms we made the right decision. — Wug·a·po·des 04:40, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply

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Optional question from Nosebagbear

9. As Crat Chats traditionally continue until all 'crats who have said they will render an opinion have done so, rather than when there is 50%+1 of all crats in agreement - why do you think your presence would lead to a CratChat being closed faster?

A: Crats who are semi-active tend to have meatspace reasons for that. Because of the limited number of crats there is a pressure to participate even if you can't get to it immediately due to other obligations. Who else would do it otherwise? And so they indicate they will opine and we wait. More (active) crats helps relieve that. If we get, say, 10 crats to opine in the first few hours of a crat chat and the outcome is clear, then there's no need to chime in and the chat gets closed faster.

Additionally, while tradition and professional courtesy are important aspects of collegial respect,

WP:CRATCHAT: Past experience has shown that bureaucrat discussions usually work best when they operate over a short time frame. Once several bureaucrats have participated, if agreement arises, the RFA or RFB is closed as usual. I already prod crats along when mired in endless agreement (see my recent close at BN), and would continue to do so in crat chats to prevent them from dragging on when the outcome is already clear. — Wug·a·po·des 18:55, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply

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Optional question from Nosebagbear

10. I think the biggest effect your presence would have will be on clerking. What are the core specific focuses on this, are there some non-obvious examples you can give? Is your focus more on questions, opposes, comments etc?

A: So I'm a little unclear on "core specific focuses" and feel stupid for not asking for clarification sooner. I'm going to assume you meant for a comma to be in there, and that you want to know my main focuses in specific rather than general terms. My focus would likely be on comments and opposes because questions and support sections tend to avoid the kinds of discussions and conflict that can spiral out of control. That said, I think it's worth considering why those areas tend to be where unhealthy conflict occurs.

The policy at Wikipedia:No personal attacks#Avoiding personal attacks gives a good explanation of the general kinds of comments that I think wind up creating a particularly harsh atmosphere, and these are what I would imagine the "formal comment reminding the editor of decorum" strategy would be most useful for. At RfX we consider candidates, so it's hard to avoid talking about a person's actions, but we can avoid personalizing concerns. Consider the opposition to this RfB. It's personal in the sense that it's about me, but it's not personalizing; the focus is on articulating criteria for the position and evaluating whether I meet those criteria. The feedback is constructive and provides clear guidance on what would get them to support should I request crat again. Unfortunately that is not always the kind of comment that gets made at RfX. Compare the opposition here with the opposition at 1997kB's RfA. Editors characterized 1997kB's content as not "meaningful"; while perhaps not up to our standards we should consider that it was meaningful to him. Consider alternative ways that we often raise this concern, "insufficient" content creation or "not enough experience with XYZ process". These are less personal, more constructive, and avoid discouraging an otherwise productive editor. Advising participants of this early before it takes off can not only improve the atmosphere but actually improve the advice given to candidates.

The conflict in the oppose and comments section is not solely on the shoulders of opposers; we often see concerns of "badgering" opposition in ways that supporters don't face. This encourages combativeness and defensiveness while discouraging editors who would oppose if the environment were less hostile. RfX is a discussion, so we should be open to going back-and-forth, but we don't need to make it a battleground or a show of force. An example to consider is CASSIOPEIA's RfA. I opposed (number 26) and there was some threaded discussion that got me to be more specific; an example of a productive discussion. Compare that to the threaded discussion over TonyBallioni's oppose (moved to talk). It immediately became a debate over policy rather than the candidate, and was correctly moved to the talk page where the meta-discussion was more useful. A more complicated example to consider is Sdrqaz's RfA where all 5 opposes had threaded discussion. Of the 5, three were moved to talk (and not even by bureaucrats who ought to be the ones doing it). I'm not going to say the opposition is a shining example of constructive feedback, but these are the kinds of situations where my second strategy from A5 (leave number and signature, move whole thing to talk) would be useful. The opposition was not particularly reasonable and vaguely polemic, and the community objected quite vocally to it...but only one of those things gets moved to the talk page. The kinds of threaded discussion that arise are quite different but we so far only have a blunt tool to deal with it. In some cases it works well, in others it does not. One focus would be using more nuanced strategies that can accommodate variation in the "heat-to-light ratio" of threaded discussion.

I hope those are specific enough examples which give you insight on the kinds of issues I would focus on and how I would read and approach discussions. Feel free to ask a follow-up question as well. — Wug·a·po·des 02:31, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Optional question from RoySmith

11. You are listed as an "Inactive" arb. I assume that means other things in your life have eaten into the time you have to work on wikipedia. If that's the case (and please correct me if my assumption is incorrect) why does it make sense to be taking on additional responsibilities at this time?

A: It's a fair assumption but incorrect. In May a series of personal issues took me away from the encyclopedia: my sister was graduating, I was traveling back home to see her and my family, a white supremacist murdered multiple people in my hometown. My attention was elsewhere, and I was marked inactive. Those are not recurring demands on my time or emotional energy, and I've returned to the encyclopedia having just finished an update to the DYK technical infrastructure and facilitating an edit-a-thon last weekend. I was on the last monthly ArbCom call so I'm keeping up with the discussions. It's nothing about my currently available time, I just ~~haven't~~hadn't seen a need to move my name to the other column.~~I'll do so if you feel strongly about it.~~

To your question on time commitments, I don't see crat being a significant demand on my time. RfAs are still rare, and pushing buttons at BN won't take long should I be first on the scene. — Wug·a·po·des 18:26, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see now; there were two case requests made around the time I posted this RfB. I check most noticeboards manually, including Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case, so I'm just seeing them now. I take back what I said, I hadn't seen a reason, but a case request is something I feel obliged to participate in. I've moved myself back to active. The rest of my answer still holds. — Wug·a·po·des 00:29, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Optional question from Pharaoh of the Wizards

12. Do crats have the right to use their discretion – or rather,

WP:IAR

– in their decision making, or do they have to compulsorily follow policy in each and every decision?

Comment: I've taken a crack at copyediting this question for clarity; the pre-copyedit version was Do Crats have the right to use there discretion rather

WP:IAR in there decision making or have to compulsory follow policy in each and very decision ?. Hope this helps! I couldn't figure out if by "do", they meant "should"... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 18:58, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

A:

WP:IAR is policy, so the answer is yes! That's not helpful and misses the point of your question, but it points out a very real tension in how decisions get made. I actually asked a similar question of WereSpielChequers in his 2020 RfB (see Q5) so it's a question that's been on myind a while.

The crat bit is dangerous. In Lee's RfB, Izno and other techies outline in the general comments some of the very serious vulnerabilities that it introduces. The bit represents a high level of trust, and with that trust comes duties. It should be used with restraint, to effect community consensus, and always for the betterment of the project. These are usually documented in our policies which is why it is critically important for bureaucrats to follow them closely. But our policies cannot forsee everything, and sometimes they are vague or only exist in tradition. This is why we have IAR, to cover those times where finite policy fails to cover the infinite space of possibilities. For Crats these should be rare but not forbidden. Part of the trust is that IAR will be used judiciously and only with good and well-explained reasons. It's not an either-or but a yes-and. — Wug·a·po·des 19:25, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply

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Optional question from The Most Comfortable Chair

13. Under which "exceptional circumstances" will you support extending an RfX beyond its usual seven day period?

A: I can't really think of any particularly realistic situations. 7 days is a long time, and there's only so many editors interested in commenting on an RfX. Given that we advertise these things on watchlists, if consensus hasn't been reached in 7 days, it's hard to imagine how an additional day or more will be a net positive choice. It's not impossible, but the comment pattern and turnout would really need to be exceptional. If there's abnormally low participation after 7 days (maybe it ran over a popular holiday weekend and we were all busy) then giving more time might be useful. If on day 6 or 7 there was some crucial information that editors could not have known from reviewing contributions, then that might warrant an extension or restart. To be clear I distinguish this from a controversial diff; we should assume editors are capable enough to review contributions themselves. I'm thinking something like the candidate admits to having engaged in undisclosed paid editing; that's something no one could have reasonably discovered from on-wiki information alone, but would be information they would probably want to consider. These aren't exactly realistic, but they're the kind of "exceptional" situations where 7 days would not be enough time for editors to have participated and reviewed all information. In general we should respect editors' intelligence and assume they make informed decisions; only in exceptional circumstances should we second guess that and change the RfX timeline. — Wug·a·po·des 01:00, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Optional question from Hawkeye7

14. Experience has shown that precipitous and controversial bureaucrat action is more likely to be taken by the oldest and most experienced bureaucrats rather than the newest ones. Given that the bureaucrats have resisted attempts by the community to restrain them with procedures, what are your thoughts on how to go about addressing this?

A: I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that "precipitous and controversial" actions are more likely from older crats. I'm also not sure that I agree bureaucrats have resisted attempts to restraint them; I share the sense that bureaucrats like their autonomy and resist roles they were not elected for, but I'm not sure that's exclusive to the group. I guess to share my experience, and part of why I was interested in an RfB at all, is that when we consider adding new roles to crats, I recall seeing claims that it's outside the scope of what they were selected for. So if we want crats to do more than show up to a crat chat once every few months we either need to force new roles on them (and likely have the already small number shrink further) or we elect more crats who are willing to do new tasks as assigned (selected from a vanishingly small pool of applicants).

While I think the second option is better, I also think the community has been somewhat shy in asking for more from crats. When we consider how to improve the encyclopedia, crats usually just get forgotten about crats. Most RfB templates only got updated because Lee and I ran RfBs, the

WP:CRATCHAT is remarkably vague if you don't already know what a crat chat is. At best crats get given a vague task like "assess consensus" or "clerk RfA", and then given little community oversight as to what that actually means. This combination means it's hard to see crat actions as predicatble or transparent, but we only consider the problems once every few months at best before it fades away and nothing meaningfully changes.

If the community ratifies expectations for bureaucrats which are clear about what, when, and how we want crats to perform actions, I think it would go a long way in developing a crat corps whose actions are more predictable and transparent. This is what I tried to do in answers 5 and 6: be clear about what, when, and how a particular consensus can be implemented. I think these would be useful restraints on what is currently poorly limited discretion regardless of whether I am a bureaucrat or not. — Wug·a·po·des 08:38, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Optional question from Mhawk10

Optional Question from Robert McClenon

16 What in particular (if anything) do you think that you as a bureaucrat, or bureaucrats in general, can do to facilitate an increase in the number of administrators and/or to reduce the toxicity of RFA?

A: I don't believe there's anything that bureaucrats can do to directly increase the number of administrators, but reducing the toxicity at RfA has repeatedly been cited as a way to get more candidates to run. When the community considered solutions in 2015, one was to have bureaucrats clerk discussions. Few crats did so, and the community still views the hostile environment as an unresolved problem. While some bureaucrats have concerns about that close, I do not believe it is a coincidence that after 7 years of minimal bureaucrat involvement, the community still sees this as an unresolved problem. Being active enough on the project to pay attention to RfAs and address issues before something needs revision deleted would go a long way to reducing toxicity and increasing the willingness to go through RfA. Rather than demand that of the crats who currently don't, I'm willing to increase the number of people willing to do that work. I explained how I would approach that in answer 5, but if other crats are willing to take it on I'd be just as happy. — Wug·a·po·des 05:08, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Links for Wugapodes: Wugapodes (talk · contribs · deleted · count · AfD · logs · block log · lu · rfar · spi)
Edit summary usage for Wugapodes can be found here.

Please keep discussion constructive and civil. If you are unfamiliar with the nominee, please thoroughly review their contributions before commenting.

Support

Support – delighted to see this RfB happening. Wugapodes has a solid record of assessing consensus prudently even in difficult discussions, and I'm confident they'll be a great crat. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 00:23, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support without hesitation! Very well-suited to this position, and I absolutely love their insights into RfA. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 00:39, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support heck yeah! He deserves it 100%. A great editor. Sea Cow (talk) 00:50, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I encouraged Wugapodes to run as a bureaucrat four months ago, highlighting why their perspective was needed despite the general lack of RfAs (I said 'crat chats, and one happened a couple of months later). I am pleased to see them make a strong, positive case for the role, highlighting other deficiencies they see. While I may regularly disagree with Wugapodes, I trust in their judgement and intellectual rigour. I do not believe that they will express opinions unless they truly believe in them. Sdrqaz (talk) 00:55, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For clarity, the last two sentences above were meant as responses to the idea that their status as an arbitrator is incompatible with being a bureaucrat. As for the other reasons for opposition, I have been clear that I disagree with them on many issues. That's fine: a diversity of views strengthens everyone's arguments. Unlike many of the dissenting voices, I did not vote for Wugapodes in ACE2021 (I supported five candidates, three of whom were successful) due to concerns about arbitration experience.
However, I view Wugs as more than qualified to be a bureaucrat. They have sought to move beyond the usual banalities and have made an active case for the role. It would be a great pity if they had to wait for their term to be over. Sdrqaz (talk) 12:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm of the opinion that we need to throw RfA out and start over. I am deeply pessimistic for any attempt to fix the system as it is. However, if there is one thing that stands maybe some chance of helping, it is increased bureaucrat engagement in the process. Primefac did a good job of that in my RfA, but was one bureaucrat trying to keep the peace among 450+ voters. At the end of my RfA, it was a huge relief seeing the 'crat team restore order during the 'crat chat—well worth the extra 35 hours—but I wish there had been more of that even-keeled institutional wisdom throughout the seven days. Wugapodes is nothing if not even-keeled and wise, and so they have my enthusiastic support. While I understand the general concern about arb-'crats, I think the solution is to elect more non-arb 'crats, not to vote against qualified arbs who run. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 00:56, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Firm Support – I have come to know Wugapodes primarily through their technical work at DYK. He has really been beneficial to DYK for getting processes in order. He has demonstrated to me to be a good, solid, reliable, level-headed individual. And when we need him, he shows up pretty soon after being pinged. Those are qualities we need in a bureaucrat. I think he'd be good at this. — Maile (talk) 01:14, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for volunteering. Levivich 01:22, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are hundreds of active admins but in 2021, 11 people ran for arb, and no one ran for crat. In 2020, 12 people ran for arb and 3 ran for crat. I don't think it's realistic to expect separate candidates for the two perms. I would be concerned about the concentration of power if there were any actual power involved. There are so few people interested in volunteering for these tasks that barring some disqualifying reason, pretty much anyone who wants to sign up should be welcomed and thanked. Levivich 22:57, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Leijurv (talk) 01:32, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support I've no concerns at all. -- ferret (talk) 01:53, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I offered to nominate Wugapodes a while back; glad to see he's come out with the self-nom. bibliomaniac 1 5 01:59, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that most arbitrators are capable of exercising enough independent judgment that this will not jeopardize the fairness of the crat chat process. With respect to the impact on the egalitarianism of the project, I see it as minimal: the role of bureaucrats in particular is relatively tiny within the broader administration of the project (so much so that Barkeep49, you recently proposed merging the role into CUOS). In my view, Wugapodes will bring an insightful new voice to the bureaucrats team, so I support. Mz7 (talk) 02:00, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think Wugapodes is eminently qualified for the role, and particularly agree with Extraordinary Writ's and Maile66's comments above. DanCherek (talk) 02:03, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Disgraced Former Crat Support but I knew a thing or two about consensus. Andrevan@ 02:04, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
SUPPORT. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snakeplissken10 (talk • contribs) 03:13, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support
talk) 03:32, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Support I see no issues on why he shouldn't be a bureaucrat that are of concern to me, he is ready! Toad40 (talk) 03:36, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Why not? -FASTILY 03:38, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Despite my disagreement with his opinion on Tamzin's RFA where he dismissed the concerns of the Oppose position as "self defeating" when concerns are brought out, his multiple efforts to reform the RFA is to be very appreciated. He is very qualified for the role at hand.✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 03:58, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support with multiple attempts to reform the RfA process which is now too contentious and stressful now.
talk) 04:39, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Support Volten001 ^☎ 05:07, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Sdrqaz, and the interest in RfA process reform. Beccaynr (talk) 05:08, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support No concerns and we do need more crats. Mjroots (talk) 05:31, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Step hen 05:39, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Elli (talk | contribs) 05:42, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
per noms and Sdrqaz. firefly ( t · c ) 07:04, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sane --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 08:47, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
trusted, good interactions, precious --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:49, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nomination statement and trusted user .Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 10:09, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support as I think the answers and nom show a clear understanding of the role as the wider wiki community sees it, but I note that I have similar issues as TonyBallioni with concentration of powers encouraging group think. However I think the benefits outweigh the negatives. SamWilson989 (talk) 11:31, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per the thoughtful and well-reasoned answers to questions (including his own). Newyorkbrad (talk) 12:35, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
While knowing little more about Wugapodes than that they are a highly competent, respected and long serving editor I applaud the widening of the 'crat experience base and support their nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:50, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support good answers and reasoning for the role. Terasail ^[✉️] 12:52, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support know the name and have had no issues in any interactions. I share a slight concern about 'crat/ArbCom overlap, but not enough that I think Wug shouldn't be a 'crat. Star Mississippi 13:11, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I completely understand TonyBallioni's concerns, however I think they can be easily mitigated by Wuga abstaining from any RfAs that they may be involved with as an Arb. I do not consider it important enough to disbar them cratship. Anarchyte (talk) 13:22, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Has a well-thought out goal of improving RfA instead of ineffectual hand-wringing about its current problems, and is willing to take on that task. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 13:46, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per the extremely well-thought out reasoning for adding to the crat corps, and the significant expertise Wug in particular brings to the group. Alyo (chat·edits) 14:52, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support as he has been a strong and sensible voice for common sense in difficult discussions in the past. GenQuest ^"scribble" 15:12, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support—Kurtis ^(talk) 16:04, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support An obvious choice for crat. I believe we do need a few more crats, per Tamzin's RfA and this contributor has demonstrated the judgement an arb or a crat requires, plus the trust and respect of the admin corps. BusterD (talk) 16:11, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Fully proven out, and did a through excellent job in the nomination. One quibble is that IMO the needed RFA fixes are not something bureaucrats can do. I thank the folks for their vigilance on the important issue of concentration of power, but feel that that is not a big issue with this particular appointment. North8000 (talk) 16:38, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support I had forgotten about the need for moderation during RfA, which is "assigned" to 'crats per current consensus. Given the need for enough 'crats to remain neutral and uninvolved in the case of a 'crat chat, that means not enough are willing to step in until the proverbial excrement strikes the rapidly rotating blades. Wugapodes also being on Arbcom is not an issue for me since the whole RfA/RfB/ACE process has become so toxic that not enough editors are willing to put up with it – the "concentration of power" is the result of our own shortsightedness. If Wugapodes can initiate change from within, then so much the better. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 17:00, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Exceptionally reasonable. – SD0001 (talk) 17:06, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Trustworthy editor. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 17:16, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support will be a net positive to the project.
« Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:44, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Support Wugs is a trusted, reliable user who is clearly qualified for the role, and in truth there is no "great power"that comes from being a 'crat. The vast majority of the modern 'crat workload is just acting on obvious consensus. It strikes me as deeply unfair to oppose just because some other 'crats already got elected to arbcom.
talk) 18:05, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Support, eloquent and thoughtful around RfA. We probably don't agree on the best next steps for RfA, but that is fine. I don't see the "arbs shouldn't be crats" argument as particularly convincing: bureaucrat is for life, arb will stop in 18 months (subject to a new election giving the community another chance at deciding how many hats are ok to have). Also happy to see that self-nominations still exist. —Kusma (talk) 18:07, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support We need more active crats who can talk eloquently and put forward a good and persuasive argument. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 18:29, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I've not actually read any of this, but I've seen Wugapodes here and there and already have all the information I need. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 18:52, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support though I'd very much have preferred that this RfB had not happened while on Arbcom per Barkeep49. But that's not what happened and I think Wugapodes is highly qualified and clearly a net positive. Hobit (talk) 18:53, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support, I do not see why we need more crats at this point, but beyond this I do not see any other reason not to support--Ymblanter (talk) 18:54, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support: my 2020 support for Wugapodes at RfA was somewhat understated. Wugapodes is one of the most trustworthy, skilled and accountable assessors of consensus on the project. Moreover, they demonstrate more clearly than I could why new bureaucrats who have joined us recently (if 7 years, a third of the project's age, is "recent"), who are up-to-date with current community norms and who change the demographic make-up of the group are needed.
I will support just about any proposal to change RfA, but this concrete proposal of clerking is something I am compelled to support even though I am usually very skeptical that clerking can make a substantial difference at RfA. Such is the strength of Wugapodes' writing and exhaustive consideration of all aspects of a topic. I also approve of their recall proposal (about as concrete as a commitment you can make given the community have somehow never codified recall).
I actually agree completely with their reply to #7, including that it is reasonable to oppose an arbitrator's RfB over the centralisation of power. This is the only reason I do not modify my support with "strong". But RfBs are few and far between and, as Wugapodes gives evidence of, often hand people the role for well over a decade; in contrast, I believe no current arb has been in the position continuously for all of the last five years (one comes close). I believe the positives of having Wugapodes as a crat more than outweigh the issues (none of which are personal, and only a matter of role distribution amongst the community). — Bilorv (talk) 19:09, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I remain not fully convinced that we *need* new bureaucrats, but some people think we do and they certainly don't hurt. With that in mind, Wugapodes is qualified and will bring a fresh(er) pair of eyes. In addition, in general and as amply demonstrated on this page, he is a good communicator. Regarding reasons to oppose, I don't think I agree with TonyBallioni that having too many arbs as crats will lead to groupthink (I think arbs tend to be pretty diverse in their opinions on many things, and to the extent there is implicit groupthink, this is offset by the reduction in crat groupthink at bringing on board a less wiki-grey-haired crat.) Finally, the more general point on risks of concentration of power (arb/crat overlap) has some validity, just to me it is not as big a deal as it's made out to be.
Martinp (talk) 19:41, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Some opposes reference Wugapodes' desire to clerk RFA more intensely, and take issue on some of his PoV regarding role of the WMF. Regarding the former, I think it's worth trying. Regarding the latter, I doubt it will be relevant too often in the bureaucrat role, and to the extent it is, I value having representation in the bureaucrat corps of a diverse set of viewpoints on governance issues. I respect that any imposition of policy by fiat by the WMF is resented by the community (especially when imposed ham-handedly, as has happened), but I am equally unwilling to pre-commit that it is never beneficial, or to exclude from consideration for bureaucratship someone who takes a more nuanced view than "WMF, stay out of the community's hair". So, for what it's worth, I reaffirm my support.
Martinp (talk) 15:52, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

– John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 22:01, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I think RfB should be less of a big deal than RfA, because it's much harder to abuse the crat tools than the sysop tools (accidentally or intentionally). I therefore intend to support most qualified candidates at RfB. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 22:18, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Clear thinking is always welcome. --Ancheta Wis (talk | contribs) 22:22, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. --Andreas JN 466 23:23, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Newer 'crats are a good thing, and I am not sure I buy the groupthink/ArbCom line of reasoning to oppose. We trust ArbCom to do a whole host of things despite the frequent offwiki communication between Arbs. If groupthink is not a problem there, I do not believe it will be one at a 'crat chat, especially considering that there are crats who are not Arbs. House Blaster^talk 00:35, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per thoughtful, thorough closes. As for the groupthink concern, I feel like the way to address it is through policy changes if it becomes an issue, rather than opposing individual RfBs or voting against an arb candidate before it's clear there's an actual problem. Folly Mox (talk) 01:45, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I'm glad to see newer editors stepping up to be 'crats, I respect Wugapodes as an editor, and I'm impressed with their answers to the questions. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 02:09, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Having skimmed the oppose section to review the concerns, I continue to support. Opposers have provided an abstract argument that we should separation of powers, but have not provided concrete examples of how the roles could conflict. In a perfect world, perhaps we'd have enough qualified candidates stepping up to these roles to enforce separation, but in lived reality, the practical need for new 'crats articulated in the nom is more salient. I find the arguments from single-issue !voters still upset about
Framgate unfortunate — Wugapodes clearly has an extremely high level of community trust, and that shouldn't entirely vanish just because he took one reasonable stance with which you personally disagree. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 17:12, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Support. Canidate statement should end with Q.E.D., especially per Q7. HiDrNick! 03:03, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Good impression of this candidate. Their replies are often thoughtful and poignant, bringing clarity to complex issues. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:25, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support —Locke Cole • t • c 05:57, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Clearly competent and understands the job. Maproom (talk) 06:37, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. As an Arbcrat, I firmly believe there is no problem with Arbcrats. Nearly a decade ago, when I ran for crat as an arb, most of the 10% who opposed my request did so for exactly the same rationale, so things do have a habit of repeating. Myself, I'd rather focus on the merits of the candidate, and regarding that, I have been working with Wugupodes now for 6 months, and have found him to be cool headed, willing to give consideration to issues and fair minded. Overall, I think he'd make a great crat, and I don't see any disagreement with that point above or below. That's what we're assessing, that's what matters. Worm^TT(talk) 09:10, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support — Wugapodes has articulated well–thought–out and exhaustive answers to questions — a quality that precedes their reputation. Time and time again they have proven to be capable of assessing consensus accurately, especially when discussions were convoluted. Their ability to fairly weigh opinions, rightly evaluate consensus, and express their reasoning in a clear and thorough manner make them as good a candidate as any for bureaucratship. — The Most Comfortable Chair 09:13, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I remain unconvinced by the opposition's rationale, which is largely based on policy positions rather than anything that directly relates to Wugapodes. Not only is someone's RfB the wrong avenue to raise this issue, it is also unfair to the candidate, who we should be assessing based on their work and not on a lack of policy distinction. Additionally, there is nothing that the candidate has done which would suggest that they would abuse their position — not that there is much potential for abuse in being an Arbitrator–Bureaucrat to begin with.

Of course, everyone has their own criteria, however this particular line of thought feels arbitrary. Hypothetically, if the Arbritration Committee did not have any bureaucrats right now, would this still be that significant an issue? Basing opposition to someone's RfB candidacy on constituents of the Arbitration Committee, especially when there is a lack of foundation or evidence for Arbitrator–Bureaucrats being a problem, does not seem justifiable.

Should the community feel the need to enforce a separation — which I would personally support for due checks and balances — there are appropriate venues to establish that, which an RfB is not in my understanding. — The Most Comfortable Chair 11:47, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support --Victor Trevor (talk) 09:15, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support without hesitation. I get where the opposers are coming from but it isn't a problem for me. People on the committee have been good at maintaining differing viewpoints with civility there and outside. There's never been a hard line between the two. I think it is a net positive. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:11, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Trusted, competent. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 12:22, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Fully qualified, which in my opinion should be the only criterion. I don't think the roles of arb and crat overlap in any significant way.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:37, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I understand the concerns voiced in the oppose and neutral sections but even they admit that Wugapodes is eminently qualified for this role. Would I have preferred it if they were not on ArbCom at the same time? Maybe. But that is not a sufficient reason to oppose this request and especially not a reason to tell them to come back later. After all, if we cannot trust the candidate to compartmentalize, they are unqualified for being a crat. Regards So Why 12:41, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. While I share concerns about giving too much power to a small group of users, the solution is to elect a more diverse group of editors -- i.e. not just admins -- to arbcom. -- Vaulter 13:37, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Spread the Wugs, I say! Thoughtful and eloquent and fair, exceptionally so. Confident he can handle any RfAR/RfA conflicts, if such arise. El_C 14:13, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Concur with concerns regarding a small group in too many roles, but candidate is clearly qualified for the role. Spencer^T•C 16:34, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support – Well qualified. EdJohnston (talk) 17:01, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom, great candidate.
talk page) 17:58, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Support In my interactions with Wugapodes, especially as relating to RfB's, I have come to appreciate the care, judiciousness, thoughtfulness, and openness to discussion that Wugapodes exhibits—all precisely the qualities we desire in our bureaucrats. I am not concerned with Wugapodes's accumulation of support responsibilities. The areas do not specifically overlap and now that most name changes are handled through global renamers, the demands on the bureaucrats' time are less pervasive, albeit intense when necessary. If Wugapodes judged that becoming a bureaucrat will not adversely affect their ARBCOM role, I am more than willing to extend my trust to that decision as well. I look forward to collaborating with you in supporting EnWiki in this area, Wugapodes, G-d willing. Good Luck! -- Avi (talk) 18:55, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced that we shouldn't elect Wug cus he's an arb. I suspect someday he won't be an arb (retirement came even for NYBrad), at which point he shouldn't be forced to re-RfB. So far having ArbCrats hasn't been a problem, and until the community decides the roles can't run concurrently, that's not gonna affect my decision. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 20:43, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Worm's points, in this section and in the general comments, are salient to me, and more-or-less express what I was thinking more clearly than I could. I have consistently trusted Wug's judgment and been impressed by him on many occasions, and I disagree with making him wait to become a 'crat when he is ready and willing now. --Dylan620 (he/him · talk · edits) 21:01, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support I don't see the arbcrat thing as an issue. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 22:10, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support A fresh crat is good, not concerned about arbcrat, people don't tend to be arbs forever and will be good presence. Galobtter (pingó mió) 00:45, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Tol (talk | contribs) @ 02:19, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support – we could use fresh perspectives in the crat corps, and Wugapodes is certainly qualified. I'm not concerned about them being an arb, there's not really an overlap between the roles. –FlyingAce^✈hello 02:41, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support This Arbcrat thing is a non-issue. Wugapodes has been an excellent admin and I'm sure will be a similarly excellent 'crat. Absconded Northerner (talk) 10:14, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The atmosphere at RfA has been continuously cited as the reason for the constant decline in applications, and here we have a candidate who is willing to roll up their sleeves and try to make a positive change. Yes: they have another hat (one that expires), and it's being held up as one reason to prevent (or delay) them taking on this work. Traditionally, bureaucrats have not had an issue being elected to the arbitration committee. I'm not sure why it should be different in the other direction. Both bureaucrats and arbitrators are selected on the basis that they are independent thinkers, resistant to groupthink, and possess enough self-awareness to recuse from participating in decisions when necessary. I trust Wugapodes to carry out the functions of the bureaucrat role with diligence and care. –xeno^talk 12:47, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support, excellent content creator. GregJackP Boomer! 14:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support I think !votes should be based on the nominee's conduct, not the voter's personal philosophy on separation of powers. If users are concerned about the number of arbs that are crats, they should open a separate RfC about it or nominate more non-arb editors for cratship to offset the numbers. I do not find anything in Wug's conduct that would cause me to oppose their inclusion in 'crat chats, which I believe is the biggest role of crats. Z1720 (talk) 14:16, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support for a trustworthy, qualified candidate. I agree with Wugapodes that crat chats need to be shorter; as someone who squeaked through at 79 percent when the discretionary range was higher than it is now, my RfA was stressful enough without a lengthy crat chat in addition. Since we already have several arb-crats and there's no real overlap in responsibilities ("power" is, IMO, the wrong way to look at it), I see no reason to oppose on those grounds. Miniapolis 15:42, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Gamaliel (talk) 17:17, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Remarkably drama-free conduct despite some high-profile work (in retrospect, the Kyiv close is especially impressive). —David Eppstein (talk) 18:34, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support A thoughtful, trustworthy candidate. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:33, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Thoroughly trusted, experienced, and deserving. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 20:37, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Excellent candidate! have no problem with arb-cratting in this case. Thank you for running! ed. ^put'r there 20:50, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Support - For the same reasons I supported Wugapodes' RfA/Arb candidacy. I've read through the opposes, and just don't find any of them convincing. Some seem like opposing here as a proxy/demonstration regarding some other issue, but the most common objection looks to be the dual Arb-Crat role. First, from a big picture perspective, cratship is for life. That means we, what, can never elect arbs from the crat pool again? As I recall, crats running for arb have a pretty high success rate specifically because it indicates a freakishly high level of trust. That's now a reason to oppose? We don't have an embarrassment of riches in terms of users that manage very high levels of trust here such that we can maintain two large, diverse, mutually exclusive pools. Second, while I see philosophical objections about "consolidation of power", that phrase tends to assume some amount of synergy between roles that would circumvent or overpower checks on authority. What specifically is the worrying scenario here? Crats transparently assess consensus at RfA and ... not much else. Arbs are otherwise uninvolved with RfA, except insofar as they occasionally desysop people for cause. Where is the power play? I'm sure we could find some wrought machiavellian hypotheticals, but if an arb is going to to rogue, isn't that the seriously problem unto itself -- one which the person's involvement in a couple cratchats a year, wouldn't really compound that much? It seems like it comes down to something like "the principle of it", which, fine, I guess, but I still say we should be voting based on trustworthiness, and that we should fully take advantage when someone who has that trust wants to do extra work. Alternatively, if there's a consensus that Arbs shouldn't be Crats, but recognizing that one is for life, it should actually be codified that crats should abstain from cratchats or any other potentially controversial duties for the duration of their tenure as an arb. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 20:52, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're right User:Rhododendrites, the concerns perhaps haven't been spelled out clearly enough. One specific "worrying scenario" is not with the Crats role to grant sysop rights after RfA, but with the Crats role to remove those rights in certain circumstances. One of those circumstances is when ArbCom request it. The Committee members themselves have not been given the authority by the community to technically remove the rights. Crats have not been given the authority by the community to decide when a user should have the rights removed. The decision and the action are separate. Putting both together gives rather too much power to a small group of users. Having the two responsibilities given to separate groups allows for appropriate checks and balances. Now, at what point should we get concerned that these two separate but related powers are being consolidated into one group? Difficult to know for sure. But perhaps a third seems an appropriate point at which to say that it seems we should pause to think about the implications. And I think that this should work both ways. So if there are already three Arbs who are Crats, perhaps we should not elect a fourth. I don't actually know. But, after reading the arguments against this consolidation of power, I understood it; I understood the concerns, and felt that the concerns weighed, for me, heavier than the need for another Crat. In addition, there is another user who is applying to be a Crat, who doesn't carry with them this and other assorted baggage, so that reduces even further the need to appoint Wugapodes with the several concerns attached to them. In addition to that specific concern, there is the general concern of lack of diversity and checks and balances when too many advanced permissions are put into the hands of a small group, no matter how trustworthy they appear to be. Wugapodes singles out for praise Amanda's close of Greenman's RFA, apparently unaware that she added the rationale only after coming under pressure to do so. Even Crats, who have been elected on trust, can make mistakes, as Amanda did so again when resysoping Ivanvector without waiting 24 hours (I've also made mistakes, as have other Crats, but those two stuck in my mind for some reason). Essentially what is being said is that even with trusted individuals it is better to have too many checks and balances than too few. I hope that goes some way to explaining the concerns. SilkTork (talk) 17:06, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for elaborating, SilkTork. The separation of calls to desysop with actually desysopping is a useful point, but under what scenario would that realistically become a problem? Certainly the arb-crat that decides a desysop is called for during a case should not be the crat to execute the desysop, but that seems like an easy line to draw without setting arbitrary numbers for when those roles may overlap. As for the mistakes, I'm not sure I see the connection between "sometimes trusted users make mistakes" and "we must not combine the powers". The objections to "consolidating power" still seem based more on a sense of "principle" than on any real potential for harm. Of course, I wouldn't underestimate the importance of "principle" when it comes to trust in institutions, but principles like that are usually predicated on some possibility (or precedent) for problems that I still haven't seen here. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:33, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Dr vulpes (talk) 23:52, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support per Rhododendrites + it's not that I see no validity in the neutral and oppose opinions and perhaps there are potential concerns regarding multiple roles; but not with this candidate. Making this candidate's nomination a proxy for discussion of a substantial matter of (unclarified!) policy is a far too reflexive (and personalised) response. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 00:58, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am in agreement wih this. I think there is room for a larger discussion however; I'm not sure it is fair to do it during a request such as this. I'm not sure this is the right forum. 400 Lux (talk) 04:22, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I can't say it better than Rhododendrites did. So I won't say any more. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 01:13, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
#Support. I read about the AC and the crat permissions and roles. I am unconvinced that there is an issue with the two sets being with one editor. If we were dealing with funds and these were accounting functions I would give it a more detailed analysis. I am not seeing the need for separation of duties. The separation of duties principle is designed so that no one corrupt person can perform a complete function. I'm absolutely sure there are logs for whatever these people are doing that are viewable by the their smaller communities. I'm not persuaded there is an issue there as addressed by opposition below. I've reviewed a sample set of edits and discussion. I am persuaded that this promotion would add to the project. Thank you. 400 Lux (talk) 04:16, 12 June 2022 (UTC) [reply]

Support Excellent candidate. Personally I'd say that his pro-WMF stance re Framegate was a big positive, not a negative. English Wikipedia was not policing itself adequately at this time. Nigej (talk) 06:14, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support 0xDeadbeef 10:26, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support - good candidate and per Rhododendrites. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:40, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support No reason to think they'd missuse the extra tools. FeydHuxtable (talk) 14:36, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Seems like a fine candidate and answers questions in a straightforward manner. —
talk) 15:04, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Support Overall
WP:NETPOS for the project and community. — dain omite 15:36, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Support – Epicgenius (talk) 16:05, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Wugapodes is one of our most articulate admins and has a proven track record of assessing consensus in complex and controversial discussions. There seems to be little doubt, even amongst the opposes here, that they would be a good crat. It's a good point about the 'separation of powers' between ArbCom and the crats, but given that there are already multiple arbcrats who have been wearing both hats for years, it would be really unfair to put that on Wugapodes. Either we say arbs should recuse from crat business while they're on the committee, in which case that rule should apply to everyone, or we say it's fine, in which case it shouldn't be a problem here. – Joe (talk) 17:05, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Wugapodes is an outstanding and trusted editor who will be a valuable addition to the 'crat corps. I'll also point to Xeno's comments above. GAB^gab 17:07, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support Always really impressed by Wug's closes. To me the pros (more diversity among crats in the "time since RfA" dimension, excellent candidate) weight more strongly than the cons (concentration of roles). I hope we will see more RfBs to further mitigate the concentration of roles and (other aspects of) diversity.
talk) 17:32, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Support on competence and capability. I am not dissuaded by the multiplicity of roles. ArbCom will revolve into new membership in time, and neither ArbCom nor Crats are immune from other forms of review. BD2412 T 19:30, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I see no problem with having crat-arbs, as long as they’re willing and able to put in the work. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 20:16, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support I particularly like the idea of having a discussion about whether they should keep the rights after 5 years. Wugapodes will make a great crat I'm sure. --Ferien (talk) 20:52, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support a) I believe Wugapodes is good at closing discussions and assessing consensus; I have seen them do it many times. To me that is the most important skill that a bureaucrat should have. b) There was a recent discussion about the need to add fresh blood to the crat team and I believe Wug is a good choice. c) I do not agree with the notion that being on arbcom simultaneously should be disqualifying. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:25, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 22:31, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Clear-headed and eloquent. Nardog (talk) 02:34, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support I have a lot of respect for Wugapodes and am glad to see the self-nom. I have never considered to oppose an ArbCom candidate because they're a crat (rather the opposite), so I don't think it makes sense to oppose a crat candidate because they're currently on ArbCom. Legoktm (talk) 03:40, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The crat-arb thing could easily be resolved by amending the
☖ 06:31, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Support Opposition is unconvincing. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:54, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support So I've moved to Support as I think the two most common oppose reasons are unconvincing. Either we should require any 'crat running for arbcom to agree not to act as a 'crat for their term, or we shouldn't restrict incoming arbcrats. Regarding @Roy Smith:'s reply which I only just saw, for that basis to be significant, we'd need any indication that 'crats do act as a buffer between arbs and desysops that is not already played by the need for three arbs to agree. The other main oppose reason, that of "excessive pro-WMFness". I mean, I hate to say it, but 'podes is already an arb, checkuser, and oversighter. Thus far, I've not seen any say we should remove him for poor performance. If his views aren't an issue there, I feel dubious as to whether we would see them with him as a crat. That all said, didn't we just have an RfA where even the supporters disliked the idea of judging by political viewpoint? Unless someone can point out actual decisions made differently due to 'podes', why is this any different? Nosebagbear (talk) 09:53, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support SoWhy's vote eloquently catches my views. Cabayi (talk) 12:05, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support - To an extent I can understand the concerns around separation of powers. Ultimately though, it’s about whether we can trust a candidate to be impartial and accurate in the discharge of duties. I see no evidence to suggest they wouldn’t be, so why not? MaxnaCarta (talk) 13:36, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I think Wugapodes is trustworthy. Since recent crat chats have often taken "how supporters respond to the oppose section" among the criteria for determining consensus, let me put this out here: I disagree with both main arguments in the oppose section at the time of writing. Namely, (1) I do not want RfB to set a precedent that precludes editors from holding Arb and Crat positions at the same time, and (2) I support interwiki cooperation on behavioural policies and disagree with claims that Wugapodes is "too pro-WMF" in this regard. Deryck C. 14:15, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support There are many editors on both sides whom I greatly respect, but I find myself landing here. We are in desperate need of both 'crats and arbcom members; I don't see 4 arbcrats being an issue. We should be welcoming the fact that someone else (who is qualified, as WTT noted) wants to be a 'crat. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 00:35, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Wugs is the gift that keeps on giving!! 💯 Atsme 💬 📧 02:40, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I appreciate the work that Wug has done and the specific goals they have set out to achieve if given the bit, and would personally like to see them implemented. I don't see arbcrats as a problem; if it becomes one, the community has avenues of redress. Iseult^Δxparlez moi 07:25, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support Sure feels like we're avoiding a consensus process on creating a policy about arbcom/crat overlap, and instead turning this RfB into a referendum on not-actually-Wugapodes. Actually-Wugapodes, I'm sorry about this. You deserve to be assessed as a real person, not as an imaginary Generic Arbcrat #4 whose most objectionable quality is that they are one more than the current number. (Although I personally would find Arbcrat Thunderdome entertaining: Four Arbcrats enter, three Arbcrats leave!) Anyway, having seen your work in recent years, I think actually-Wugapodes will do a fine job with the few (but important) things we ask of bureaucrats, so I land here, in support of the actual person going through this disheartening process. Indignant Flamingo (talk) 09:13, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I still have concerns about the workload issue I raised in Q11, but if Wug says they can handle it, I'll accept that. And I still have concerns about the arb-crat issue, but the solution there is to entice more people to get involved, not to limit the activities of those who are. I'm also not convinced that clerking RfAs is going to make a difference, but it's a plausible idea and if they want to give it a try, they should get the chance and be thanked for making the attempt. I'll also add that the objections based on Wug's opinions of the WMF are silly; I don't see how those opinions could affect how they perform as a crat. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:02, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support I do not find the opposes about arbcrats convincing as a reason to oppose this particular would-be arbcrat. Every experience I've had with Wugapodes, everything I've read that they have written, convinces me they are fair-minded, intelligent, dedicated to this project, and would be good in this role. General conversations about if arbcrats are desireable or if their numbers should be limited should not be taking place on an individual RFB, and certainly not on an RFB for a candidate who is otherwise as unquestionably qualified as Wugapodes. ~ problem solving 15:36, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Support After thinking about this RFB for a while, I land at the point where there can be a concern with too many bureaucrats serving as arbitrators, but there is no policy against a bureaucrat serving as an arbitrator. So, until a policy decision is made either limiting the number of bureaucrats serving as arbitrator, our decision in front of us is if Wugapodes is a trusted, respected editor and should be promoted. I say yes, and offer my support. --Enos733 (talk) 17:59, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Wugapodes is a trustworthy editor and admin. I am not convinced by the arb-crat arguments. - tucoxn\^talk 18:45, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support - It's just commendable that someone who also seems suitable to me wants to become a bureaucrat. Drummingman (talk) 19:08, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support per Indignant Flamingo, specifically the bit about imaginary Generic Arbcrat #4. Olivaw-Daneel (talk) 02:21, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support I entirely disagree with the premise behind the majority of the opposition. ArbCom members are limited to 1 or 2 year terms and subject to election (due to the limited number of positions). Bureaucrats are in position for an indefinite period. The roles are also completely different and an RfB is not the place to debate changes to those roles. Iffy★Chat -- 11:28, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support Strong track record of assessing consensus, especially in potentially controversial/contentious RfC's. I'm not particularly swayed by the opposition w.r.t. an arbitrator serving as a bureaucrat. I trust Wugapodes to recuse when necessary, and I think that should be enough. OhKayeSierra (talk) 12:32, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support — TNT (talk • she/her) 17:48, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support I see strong and thoughtful responses to the nomination questions. I am not concerned by the opposes below. Malinaccier (talk) 18:52, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Rusty4321 ^{talk contributions log} 23:19, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support my concerns were allayed by the candidate's answers to questions 7 and 11. I'm not convinced that we need more bureaucrats but better too many than not enough. Aoi (青い) (talk) 23:47, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I've seen Wugapodes's work over the years as an editor and admin and have no doubt that they would also make a good bureaucrat as well. I also don't think that them being a member of the Arbitration Committee negates the fact that they are well qualified for the role of a bureaucrat which they are more than capable of exercising properly. Both are different roles and just because someone holds a seat on the Arbcom doesn't mean that they can't be a good bureaucrat. I also find that they are good at evaluating consensus and explaining reasons behind their decisions properly. However, I would like to mention a very important note related to Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard/Archive 47#Request for comment on Bureaucrat activity requirements. This RfC was started on April 19th and closed prematurely on April 22nd in less than 72 hours after a recent similar RfC on Admin activity requirements was passed. I would like to inform all admins and bureaucrats that even though it was apparent that this RfC would have certainly passed because of the obvious consensus, the due process of the RfC was not followed because not enough time was given for every possible person who could have voiced their concern/opinion (which is a minimum of 30 days) because not everyone is active on Wikipedia every single day and a wide and site impacting RfC like this needs to run for a minimum of 30 days. I would like Wugapodes and every other admin and bureaucrat know this very important thing from now onwards and the spirit of the process should be followed (at least in such important RfC's like these impacting a core part of Wikipedia). TheGeneralUser (talk) 00:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

If he wasn't a current arb, I'd support, but we currently have three 'crats as members of AC. Regardless of whether or not the individual is trusted, being part of a small group in frequent communication encourages group think in discussion. That's an unavoidable problem and is something that you have to deal with if you want a functioning committee. No problem there.
The potential problem emerges since the last real power of bureaucrats is to vote in crat chats. Based on the last crat chat, you have about 10 actively participating, and all of the current arbs in some way. Giving the current committee ~40% of the votes isn't exactly fair to either the candidate or the community because by their nature, people who are in frequent contact in closed groups are more likely to agree with one another. That can be unfair to the candidate if all vote for no consensus, and that can be unfair to the opposes if all vote to promote.
Short of it, when your term is up, I'll gladly support, just like I supported your ArbCom bid. I can't right now, though, given the current composition of the committee. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:39, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@TonyBallioni: How would you feel if Wugapodes did a second RfB after their term is up, you supported them, and then they ran for another term on ArbCom the next year? I'm not trying to catch you out, it's a genuine question – I just don't see how we can reduce the number of 'arbcrats' without a rule that applies to all of them? – Joe (talk) 17:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Joe, fair question. I suppose my response would be that the community has specifically not set any qualification for any position because it presumes that the voters in RfX and ACE can set their own qualifications without there needing to be a hard rule. Currently, it looks like there's at least a sizable enough chunk of the community that wants to prevent the creation of a new bureaucrat that isn't an arb that the method seems to work (in other words, if enough oppose, the rule exists without formalizing it.) If Wugapodes was to run for ACE in a few years after a successful RfB where he'd stated he'd stay out of ArbCom if he passed, the community would have the opportunity to vote on if it considered that an impediment to his election as an arbitrator then, and could prevent it via voting that manner.
Like both Amanda and I mentioned below, the concern isn't with the concept of crats being arbs, it is with the current concentration of crats who are active arbs. Since there's literally no such thing as a policy-based support or oppose in an RfX (we don't have any policy about who can be an admin/crat, so nothing can be 'policy-based'), opposing in this discussion is the only way to prevent it as the community is unlikely to ever create standards since opposition here works just as well. Sorry if that was a bit rambly. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:07, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Per TB (and Barkeep below). Too much concentration of roles while he is an arb. Johnbod (talk) 17:44, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am certainly not displeased with your work in senior office so far, and if I had not been preoccupied at the time, I would have supported your RfA. However, TonyBallioni does raise some very salient points, as does Barkeep49 while abstaining. I would add that the style this RfB does not convey the modest approach that seems to be more in character for 'crats. If this should pass - and most RfB do - I would hope that what tends to come across as a political campaign speech will not be a politician's typical empty words and will be backed up by the promised activity, particularly the clerking of RfA. What gives me further pause is that IMO this RfB comes a tad hard on the heels of your RfA and the election to Arbcom (where you are currently inactive); however, like Tony, I might well support a new bid for 'cratship when you are no longer a member of that Committee. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:07, 9 June 2022 (UTC).[reply]
I don't think I've ever added to any of my RfX votes before. However, I do find it rather odd that you have hurriedly changed the status of your availability for Arbcom since it was mentioned here. Although I agree that Arbcom is a huge time sink for its members - or as I have been told many times - Whatever the reasons were for the absence from the Committee (health and RL excepted), I don't believe that work in other departments of Wikipedia should detract from Arbcom for which one has clearly sought election, and (for my barometer at least) your overall participation on Wikipedia has been very low since early 2021 and does not show any signs of picking up. The comments on The Signpost were also mentioned by opposing editors since I made my vote here, and on review of that issue, I feel I must concur that 'Community vs WMF' politics are incompatible with the scope of bureaucrats who IMO should be Wiki-apolitical, or at least keep their leaning for themselves where opinions matter. There is nothing personal in these remarks of mine, but the facts do give me pause, while I will repeat again, that I might well support a new bid for 'cratship when you are no longer a member of that Committee. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:51, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Per TonyBialloni and Barkeep's concerns in the Neutral section. We need more not less separation of powers around here. Nothing personal; like TB, I would support if Wugapodes' ArbCom term were over. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:28, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The candidate is eminently suited for both Arbcom and bureaucratship but I would also prefer to see a separation of roles. Thus, it's either one or the other. Schwede 66 23:01, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Per above. Nothing personal. starship .paint (exalt) 09:51, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was intending to support (despite my two quibbles below); however, I am convinced by the arguments regarding a trend toward there being too many higher level permissions being grouped into the hands of a small group. If there were fewer than three Crats in ArbCom it would be a different matter.
My minor quibbles: I'm not as certain as Wugapodes that Wikipedia:2015 administrator election reform/Phase II/Clerking RfC#B1: Bureaucrats is a clear consensus for only Crats to clerk RFA - there appears to me to be a bit of a muddle between those who consider that Crats should oversee others doing the clerking, those who feel that Crats should do the clerking themselves, and those that feel that Crats should both oversee and clerk. Considering the whole section on Who may clerk, I'm not sure there is a clear consensus, though the trend appears to be that anyone should be able to clerk (something I would support). My other minor quibble is Wugapodes using as an example of making a neutral Crat decision, their own rationale for deciding there was consensus to promote in an RfA in which they had !voted to support; and this on the very RfA in which Crats discussed not referring to how they had !voted when recusing. That Wugapodes did it as a non-Crat was perfectly fine, but that they are using it in their own RfB as an argument for being a Crat seems a little clumsy. I think, though, that I might have been more understanding and appreciative if they had given an example of where they had !voted to oppose, but then gave a rationale for deciding there was consensus to promote. SilkTork (talk) 17:26, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
SilkTork, a brave attempt was made by Scottywong within the framework of RFA2011 to address the need for clerking of RfA where you commented there too. The discussion did not gain traction (ironically it was closed by a troll-vandal-sock who was indeffed shortly after), but during all these years later I have been of the opinion that clerking can be done by any experienced, uninvolved editor as the need arises (in may ways like the peanut gallery demands judgement at ANI) and that it has never been a task specifically allocated to Bureaucrats only. Subsequent discussion in 2015 did not appear to have reached any consensus regarding the 'crats either and the proposer chose not to check out what had been discussed previously (a common failing of RfC proposers). The main thing to bear in mind however is that 'consensus can change'... Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:22, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The rationale for this self-nomination consists solely of "RFA is broken, and I intend to fix it". I don't accept that RFA is broken and I don't agree that the fact that some RFAs are contentious is a problem or a negative. Nor do I accept the assertion that consensus at RFAs have been erroneous so as to either accept or reject candidates against consensus. And even if I accepted any of these dubious premises, I see no convincing evidence that this candidate is the person to fix it. To the contrary, the argument advanced convinces me that this candidate would worsen rather than improve the RFA process given his stated attitude and bias. — Preceding
Banks Irk (talk • contribs) 22:16, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Per too many arbs into crat circles, makes the bureaucracy of desysops by Arbcom moot when there is a legitimate reason for separation of powers. To be clear, I don't hold being an Arb as an issue for a crat, just the number of arbs. -- Amanda (she/her) 00:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I hate to wind up on this section of an RfX. Wug, I think you're a great person, and I'd be happy to support an RfB when you are no longer an arb. Silktork, Amanda, and Tony put it very well. SQL ^{Query Me!} 00:04, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: I'm sorry to find myself here, Wug. But, I can't support your intention to change things at RfA. Ok,
consensus can change. What the role of clerking would entail of bureaucrats needs to be discussed before we ever venture down that path. Even today, Wikipedia:Bureaucrats does not outline any role for bureaucrats to be clerks at RfA. Sorry, but I can't accept you having the role you intend for yourself in being a bureaucrat when there is so little support for it, and no clarifying discussion or modification of WP:CRAT to support what that would look like. Everything at RfA is controversial. I can't accept the idea that someone would move ahead with such plans without further discussion given this reality. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:23, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Oppose, in order to attempt to maintain some seperation between ARBCOM and Bureaucrats - concentrating too much power in ARBCOM's hands is a bad idea. BilledMammal (talk) 00:56, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Hammersoft, who better expressed my concerns that I've been struggling with how to make for most of the day. Ealdgyth (talk) 01:10, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add that Iri's oppose also articulates my nebulous feelings that I struggled to express. I'm not really concerned about crats being arbs or arbs being crats - I'm opposing based on Wug's ideas on "clerking" and for many of the reasons I opposed his arbcom candidacy. Everything I've seen of Wug is that they mean well, and that they are likely a good person, but I do not think they would be a good fit as a crat - too much feeling of someone on a mission. Ealdgyth (talk) 16:11, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per TonyBallioni and SMcCandlish. Just no. No apologies. – Athaenara ✉ 05:58, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I vaguely remembered Wugapodes posting some opinions which I thought were too pro WMF. Upon searching, it was in
WP:FRAMBAN like affair. When that happens, I'd want a crat to take decisive action like how User:WJBscribe did, whom I consider to be the best we had. Couple Wugapodes' general stance about WMF with him being a current arbitrator, I must oppose. ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 10:20, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Oppose due to the pro-WMF views expressed at the signpost. The Wikimedia Foundation was created to serve Wikipedia and its sister projects, not dictate what happens. I can't support anyone who believes that the Wikimedia Foundation is superior to the community that has governed this project since the beginning. Noah^Talk 10:37, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose It is the wrong time. scope_creep^Talk 14:46, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per above, separation of powers is important to me. Therapyisgood (talk) 15:35, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Pretty much per all of the above, but most especially based on views regarding the WMF, which are divisive at best and an inaccurate reflection of the Wikipedia community at worst. It's difficult to see how they would set those views aside when dealing with critical issues, especially those regarding admins.--WaltCip-(talk) 16:22, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per all above. I would certainly reconsider in the future. -- Kicking222 (talk) 21:50, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose in light of the candidate's perspective on the role of the WMF in relation to the community, I am not comfortable appointing this person to represent our interests when the next kerfuffle with the foundation occurs.
LEPRICAVARK (talk) 04:30, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Oppose for now, respectfully, per Tony and Barkeep. An excellent admin and a skilled arb, but let's keep powers separate whenever we can. — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:43, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Per Tony Ballioni and Barkeep. Beyond My Ken (talk)

Oppose per TonyBallioni - maybe after your term is over --DannyS712 (talk) 04:42, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not particularly concerned by the separation-of-powers thing. In an ideal world, we'd keep all Wikipedia's various governance tiers separate, but we don't live in an ideal world and in a community with only 3500-4000 active editors, there's inevitably going to be some degree of overlap. What I can't get on board with is what appears to be a "Wikipedia is broken and I'm the only one who can fix it" mentality. Wannabe dictators are in some way a good thing on Arbcom where the process is expressly designed to force them to follow consensus, but as far as I can follow the rather rambling nomination statement, this is a candidate who expressly wants the 'crat permission because he thinks it will help him stop people expressing opinions with whom he disagrees. Assuming this is successful—RFBs usually are—I can only foresee either us electing someone who feels they're unable to do what they were elected to do and ultimately resigns in disgust, or someone who interprets the result as a mandate and leads to every subsequent RFA degenerating into an acrimonious mess of appeals and counter-appeals whenever he tries to 'clerk' someone expressing any view with which he personally disagrees. ‑
Iridescent 13:30, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Oppose Not at this time. -- Dolotta (talk) 15:37, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I share some of the sentiment that Iridescent does (and enough of it to oppose this RFB), though I wouldn't've worded it as such. Useight (talk) 20:47, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose very reluctantly. I think Wugapodes is an excellent editor who on paper is qualified for this role, but I share others' concerns about the conflating of arbitrators and bureaucrats. If Wug were not already on ArbCom I'd support without a second thought. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 00:41, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

oppose I've thought more on the responses to Q5. I'm not comfortable with the expanded involvement of a crat in the "behavior" of an ongoing permission discussion. I don't think it is for the crat to moderate the discussion, only to decide it. I think moderating a discussion you may eventually decide or contribute to the deciding process adds a very real potential for some conflicting of interests. (by decide, I mean interpret consensus, et cetera) Thank you. 400 Lux (talk) 03:28, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I would support but I it seems like they need a little more practice.`~HelpingWorld~`^(👽🛸) 07:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@HelpingWorld: Practice in what precisely? Can you elaborate please? — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:06, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
? Agreed, clarification is needed. — Ret.Prof (talk) 14:34, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Like in different parts of the community`~HelpingWorld~`^(👽🛸) 19:39, 14 June 2022 (UTC).[reply]
HelpingWorld, specifically in which parts of the community does Wug need more practice? Levivich 19:46, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:AFD. I think.`~HelpingWorld~`^(👽🛸) 21:43, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
HelpingWorld, thanks, but that leads me to some follow-up questions: (1) how much practice does Wug have at AFC and AFD, and how much more practice do they need before they have enough practice in your view? (2) What does AFC and AFD have to do with being a crat? Levivich 21:49, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@HelpingWorld: As far as I can see, you've never interacted with Wugapodes either at AFC or at AFD, or anywhere else for that matter. Additionally, you might appreciate to learn that bureaucrats do not deal with AFC or AFD, and this is a request for bureaucratship, not for adminship. Also, there is no way to have "more practice" in bureaucratship, because this is a role, not a skill or ability that you might get elsewhere.

You are a relatively new editor with relatively limited knowledge of the various Wikipedia oversight mechanisms. It might be reasonable for you to rescind your vote or, alternatively, to quote a different justification.

By the way, I also voted Oppose, however it was based on an assessment of the role and the candidate's suitability. — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:48, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@
WP:RFB. `~HelpingWorld~`^(👽🛸) 01:34, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Hounding an editor to justify their vote and arguing that it should be rescinded is disruptive and unproductive. In a close case the closing 'crat will assess the rationales behind the votes, pro and con.
Banks Irk (talk) 01:30, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
It's not about their vote; it's about their patronising tone. — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:04, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. When I was a bureaucrat, I contemplated relinquishing the role several times to allow me to more actively participate in RfA reform and clerking. I don't think someone who wants to "fix" RfA should become a bureaucrat - it's a stewardship role, not a leadership role. Ultimately being a bureaucrat prevents you from taking positions in the debates that are at the heart of how RfA should work. Yes, you can recuse from closes/chats for RfAs you've clerked, but it's not that easy to keep things in a bubble - other RfAs will raise the same issues and people will ask you to recuse from those too. To be clear, I don't disagree with the changes Wugapodes would like to see, I just don't think becoming a bureaucrat to reform RfA is a viable strategy. WJBscribe (talk) 11:37, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You have made your feelings about the WMF clear most recently on your talk page here. If I may ask, how much of your opposition to this RfB is based on Wug's attitude towards the WMF differing from yours? -- RoySmith (talk) 14:30, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WJBScribe provided a very clear, rational reason for opposing. "But why are you really opposing?" type questions seem like the kind of "insulting but with polite language so it's fine!" type of thing that Wugapodes might find difficult to cull. Yuck. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:50, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - I was not fully satisfied with their analysis/close of the NSPORTS RFC and don't think they are quite ready to step up. Giant Snowman 12:15, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I gave this a lot of thought the past few days, and while I don't share the concern about too many hats with an arb as a crat (though crats have so few responsibilities anymore that a sitting arb certainly has other things to handle), I do share both the WMF issues and the reform issues noted above. If you end up deciding to clerk each RfA that comes up, striking things or moving them if they get heated, then I'm not opposed to that, but if it ends up as a discretionary range case then you know you'll end up having to recuse, so therein missing the chats anyway. I'm also concerned with the answer to Q4 where your stance is about needing more crats to close chats faster, which seems to me to want things both ways. Do you want a quick decisive close or the crats to come together to hash out a consensus? Unfortunately, can't have both. It's a shame because I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, but it seems like you're running for RfA Clerk, not a bureaucrat. If you want to do that, by all means go ahead, we should have people making sure things don't go sideways on RfAs, but if the crats all did that then there would be no one to close them at the end. Wizardman 02:40, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, feels like hat-collecting. Also, being a bureaucrat is not a prerequisite to "fixing RFA". Stifle (talk) 10:44, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The proposal of clerking is pretty much compelling, but I oppose granting bureaucrats the double role of clerking comments and additionally having leverage over whether borderline candidates pass RfA; just like arbiters on ArbCom don't redact, refactor or remove submissions of parties themselves, but instead delegate the duty to the clerks. RfA clerks might be needed, sure, but becoming a bureaucrat will probably lead you into trouble the moment you decide to use your newly acquired power to redact others' comments.
Also, I am dissatisfied with the answer to Q12, which is about the scope of
WP:IAR in making decisions. The relevant policy is fairly clear that the possibility only applies to improving and maintaining the encyclopedia. A user in their capacity as a bureaucrat does not improve Wikipedia (=writing articles, which we are all supposed to be about), and the claim that a bureaucrat actively maintains the encyclopedia by clicking that button, which deploys another admin to the mop, is about as far-fetched as claiming that the minister of roads of your jurisdiction actually maintains roads, and not the thousands of workers who mend potholes on the roads, or even their immediate supervisors who are supposed to prevent these ridiculous roadsign combinations
(added to lighten up the mood).

The only firm rule for bureaucrats in RfAs is to evaluate consensus. Since by nature of the functions the bureaucrats perform, in the vast majority, if not all cases, the application of IAR would necessarily override community consensus for whatever reason as established during polling, this will in most cases be a
supervote
, with all the justified outrage that ensues. If something that policies did not foresee might influence the decision (not to) grant adminship, the proper way is to discuss the proposed rule in light of those particular circumstances with the community and not to force it using IAR. If needed, RfAs may be suspended to clarify some quirk in the rules.

tl;dr: In short, my view is that: a) bureaucrats should not themselves clerk if they are to make decisions regarding a the RfA where they clerk, or better not clerk at all, b) IAR should not apply to bureaucrats' actions, because it falls outside the scope of "improving and maintaining" the encyclopedia, and any changes to the rules should not be effectuated by the bureaucrats but by the community. These are not the views Wugapodes seems to support, so here we are. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:05, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for now, largely due to the separation of powers views many others have shared. RfA Reform doesn't require bureaucratship - just a strong desire to develop and lead a change that the community would agree on. -- Dane ^talk 17:21, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I was going to sit this one out, as i couldn't articulate exactly to myself what i wanted to, let alone being able to put it into words. As it is, i concur with Wizardman, above. Happy days ~ Lindsay^Hello 17:50, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I have a few concerns which were addressed above (per #8 Banks Irk & #11 Hammersoft, per #9 Amanda, strongly per #15 ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ and weakly per #34 Stifle). I also would like to see more experience – it's a gut feeling; I don't have any set amount of experience someone should have to be a 'crat. And finally, as a very, very minor point, I would like to see 'crats have noms or co-noms. Rgrds. --
talk) 20:29, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Oppose. The candidate's being an Arb as well is neither here nor there for me; the community elects Arbs, and will elect whomever they please, including Crats. The desire to reform RfA by becoming a Crat, however, is for me disqualifying. Crats are tasked with discerning consensus at RfA; I do not want activist Crats, whether Crats who will interfere with the discussion or Crats who are disposed to repeat the supervote (and pressuring of dissident Crats) that happened with RexxS. (In my view, some of the hostile atmosphere at RfA comes from desperation in the face of bludgeoning, and we are even seeing bludgeoning here. In an RfB.) The sympathy expressed for WMF imposition of behavioral controls is also counter-indicative for me. Others may differ, and the candidate's good intentions are clear. If it helps, my oppose can be boiled down to "insufficiently boring". Yngvadottir (talk) 20:38, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

I can't support, because I share TonyBallioni's and Barkeep49's concerns. Having spent four years of my life on Arbcom, I'm in awe that Wugapodes wants to take on more things that take up more time. You're a better arb than I, Gunga Din. (Admittedly a low bar, but nonetheless.) However, I think there is indeed a need for more 'crats, that Wugapodes would be an asset to their ranks now or in the future, and dear God why would we put somebody through this again if we feel that way? So I land here in neutral land, and I'll let those who have more firm opinions decide the question. Katie^talk 23:34, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I currently sit here because I am unsure about the arb/crat co-mingling. 'podes is obviously competent (a viewpoint shared by basically everyone). I feel that arguments of "one person holding too much power" is odd. 'arbs intrinsically hold lots of authority, and then we also give them CU and OS, the two primary other local functionary rights. 'Crats do fairly little, these days. So sheer userright amassing is not my concern. It's more that there are some minor crossovers between arb and crat rights, but not significant ones in practical terms. Perhaps a greater issue is that of amassing COIs beyond that of a regular user. I am likely to decide one way or t'other, but for now reside here. By all means feel free to consider this an overly-verbose placeholder neutral and moan accordingly. Nosebagbear (talk) 19:49, 10 June 2022 (UTC) Moved to support Nosebagbear (talk) 09:11, 13 June 2022 (UTC) [reply]
The reason arbs get CU and OS is because arbcom picks who gets those rights and it's then their job to audit how the people they've deputized are using those rights, to make sure they're not abusing them. The way they perform those audits is by examining the CU and OS logs. I guess technically, they only need to view the logs, not perform actual checks or suppressions, but the current software bundles those two into a single grant. On the other hand, arbs have no supervisory role over crats. If anything, there's a checks-and-balances relationship. Arbcom can decide to revoke an admin's mop, but they need to get a crat to implement that for them. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:26, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When you're auditing CU activity there are occasions when you need to be able to run the checks as well, rather than just look at the logs. If someone is accused of blocking the wrong person based on a misread of CU data, one needs to be able to see the results of the checkuser request in question, not just the log entry showing that the request took place. Likewise of someone is accused of abusing oversight to hide material inappropriately, one needs the OS permission to be able to see what it was they hid. ‑
Iridescent 16:22, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
@
Iridescent sure, but we also don't prevent arbs from using CUOS in that narrow definition - quite the opposite, we like to see them working the lists and also permit them to carry it over after ceasing to be arbs. The status quo is firmly "arbs should also have the other major functionary userrights, and if they have them, they should learn and use them". Nosebagbear (talk) 16:50, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
There are also times when the ability to view checkuser logs or oversighted material is relevant to an arbitration request or case. (For what it's worth, I see no significant problem with a few arbitrators also being bureaucrats.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:57, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mainly for separation of duties reasons. I have no doubt they'd do the role well enough, but have excessive arb/crat overlap is a series of governance issues waiting to happen. Hog Farm _Talk 00:17, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I trust Wugapodes's judgement implicitly; it's why I nominated him for adminship. I think he's done great work as an Arbitrator. I consider him a wikifriend, and I'm not going to oppose. However, I share the concerns expressed above about concentration of power; I've expressed them elsewhere numerous times, and have voted against candidates I respect based on these concerns. And thus I find myself here. If this request fails, Wugapodes, and you offer your services again when you're not on ARBCOM, I would gladly write a nomination statement. Vanamonde (Talk) 01:13, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have nothing against Wugapodes. In fact, I've known them too little to have any commentary personally. I would default to a support in this case, but given the recent arguments of power consolidation to an elected oligarchy (ArbCom) I find my support diminished. In an ideal Wikipedian society, we should be equals in power—our own leaders, where everybody rules and consensus is based on the community's ideas. But our community sees a few extra roles that we entrust in those that we feel can handle the tools, and that's alright.
WP:DEMOCRACY—Wikipedia is not a political system. I have seen proposals to actually merge bureaucrat with ArbCom, but then again, Wikipedia should not be an oligarchy. At this moment, I do not wish to oppose, but I do not wish to support right now, so I find myself in a dilemma called the neutral section. Would definitely support if there was not this power consolidation issue. — 3PPYB6 — TALK — CONTRIBS — 12:15, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Neutral - I think that the role of Bureaucrats is poorly defined and in need of rework, and I don't know whether it should be given to someone who is already an Arbitrator. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:42, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I trust the editor's judgement enough to where I'd support, especially after my conversations with them on RfA voting. However, I don't consider myself experienced enough with the crucial question posed by many in the oppose camp (whether having Wugapodes be both a 'crat and an arb is harmful) to confidently place myself in the support section. However, I do hope that this RfB will result in an equally engaged and thoughtful discussion on the role and processes of 'crats so that this issue does not repeat itself in the future. The candidate themself has identified other ways the 'crat role needs improvement, a perspective I agree with. As a small aside I do think that due to the WMF's blatant incompetency at significantly improving the mobile editing and tools for Wikipedia (thus leaving us in
WP:FINANCE! 11:06, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Would I sound like a weenie if I say "I don't have anything to say"? I don't think the concerns about hat-wearing can be automatically dismissed (and btw, I'm counting 5 hats, not 2), but I don't have time right now to research this. Best of luck? (Okay, now I do sound like a weenie.) - Dank (push to talk) 13:41, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

General comments

I think having so many Arbs also being crats is bad for the social fabric of our project in how it concentrates high level permissions into a small group of people. I prefer a far more egalitarian version of Wikipedia. If Wugs passes that would be a 4th active arb as a crat. If Wugs weren't on ArbCom I'd have been encouraging him to run as he has excellent skills. But he is and so I find myself unable to support while also recognizing that the community as a whole doesn't feel this way. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:40, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If this is an issue, would it not be a better idea to create a requirement forbidding current bureaucrats from serving on the arbitration committee? If they do run, require them to resign the right if they win a seat in the election or else not be seated. I do see your point as having admin, bureaucrat, and the rights and powers associated with arb com could potentially create an aristocracy, especially given the case multiple people are in the same boat. This is part of the reason why stewards are forbidden from using their rights on their home wikis. It essentially would make them super users. That being said, since it isn't currently a requirement, I think it's inappropriate to use it as a reason to sink the nomination of an otherwise qualified candidate. Noah^Talk 02:34, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not really; there are no formal requirements for any Wikipedia position (other than CU/OS/ArbCom, which require someone be 18+); the assumption is that the community, by voting, will impose its own requirements. We make up our own qualifications every time there is an RfX/election, and vote to determine numerical consensus. If an argument has the support of a substantial portion of the community, it carries weight and is accepted and becomes a de facto requirement.
An example of this is that currently it would be next to impossible to pass an RfA with less than a year experience of actively editing. There's no formal rule that says that, but the community has decided it by making it clear that time matters. The community is equally empowered to decide that it thinks there should be a separation here without creating a formal rule. It can do so by voting. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
18+ and sign the confidentiality agreement. Cabayi (talk) 14:10, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The issue of power concentration wouldn't be fixed by opposing someone when they are at RfB. They could always run again for RfB after their term expires, become a bureaucrat, and be elected to the committee again at a later time. The amount of bureaucrats on the committee could always increase in a future election as well, which would only worsen the problem expressed here. The only appropriate way to fix this would be to prevent bureaucrats from serving on the committee, which would act in a similar manner as the prevention of stewards from using their rights on their home wikis which is encoded in policy at Meta wiki. Noah^Talk 02:57, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but that doesn't mean that we can't handle it by opposing ad hoc. The English Wikipedia has chosen to not have any firm qualifications for any of our advanced permissions, unlike other projects. That means there is no such thing as a "qualified candidate" since we make up the qualifications on the spot. If you want to change that, in all honesty I'd probably support something along the lines of the Spanish Wikipedia model, which makes all admins bureaucrats at the same time (I'd probably make it automatic after 1 year.) The point is the English Wikipedia has not gone that route so we're free to oppose or support for any reason we want. Obviously I am in the minority now, which is fine, that's how voting works. It doesn't make my position any less valid than those supporting without a policy-based reason to support, because there is no policy-based reason at all to either support or oppose. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:04, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Being an Arb and Crat are things that are specific to Wugs and speak to my analysis of whether or not he should be a crat and I put it out there as a general comment. I pointedly am not opposing Wugs and have noted that I believe myself to be in the minority with the view I'm expressing here. Obviously Tony, who was writing his oppose at the same time as me, reached a different outcome. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:51, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the concerns about pluralism, but I think the RfB of one particular candidate is the wrong place to discuss them. Maproom (talk) 06:42, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can I point out that we're in short supply of good candidates for both Arbcom and Bureaucratship? We're fine at the minute, but we had 11 candidates for 8 seats at the latest ACE, and at present, we have 3 arbcrats. If we were to enforce this separation of roles, we'd have either not a full committee, or been forced to take candidates who may not be appropriate. As for the 'crat side, we've appointed 5 since 2014 - so if there is a person who's willing to serve and would do well in either role, I see no reason to not allow them to do both based in our current climate. Worm^TT(talk) 10:00, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the lack of arb candidates is an issue. I support having new crats but but lack of candidates is far less troubling given the work load. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 11:20, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Worm That Turned and Barkeep49: If my memory serves me right (If anyone would like to do the research) I think in most cases there have been significantly long periods in the timelines of arb/crat users between registration, RfA, successful ACE, and RfB. It doesn't look as if any of them were hungry for labels or power, and I know some of them personally and consider them to be friends. The lack of arb candidates is however a serious issue; it means that with barely enough to fill the seats, chances are that any or all of them will be offered a place on the committee however well suited for it they are or might not be. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:58, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the most recent Arbitration Committee Elections December 2021, the top winning candidate was a sitting bureaucrat. So "crats shouldn't be arbs" does not seem to be a feeling very widely shared in the community. —Kusma (talk) 10:48, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Kusma, That as maybe, but I have explained quite fully in my oppose vote why that, in contrast to this RfB, in the case of WTT is IMHO perfectly acceptable. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:23, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the issue was about Arbs also being crats; I think the concern was that the current ArbCom has too many crats on it. I don't think too many people would have a problem with a clearly qualified user having admin, crat, interface admin, EFM, CU, and OS, plus be a sitting Arb, plus be a steward, all simultaneously. I can see why some people would raise eyebrows if there was a small
mini-committee of users with all of those permissions sitting together, though. Whether that should be taken out on the candidate's RFB though... now that's the question. —k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 02:30, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Let's say 20% of the community has an issue with arbcrats. That's going to lead to different results at ACE and RfB on the basis of numbers alone. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 07:02, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Given the consistent success of incumbent bureaucrats at Committee elections, it appears that 20%'s composition is pretty skewed towards the "elite" instead of the general community. Sdrqaz (talk) 16:41, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Reinforced by the fact that the average account age of oppose/neutral votes is 10+ years and most are admins (and a bunch are current/former functionaries). Levivich 17:05, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I predicted that at the beginning of the RfA. If you want a more charitable interpretation of why here goes: people with more experience have seen the negative impacts group think/concentration of influence can have on online communities, and are thus more likely to oppose based on it. People who are newer want to see more people from their "generation" represented in posts and thus are quick to support. You'll also notice that AmandaNP, SilkTork and I all opposed on the concentration of power bit, not the idea of an arbcrat as a whole. I urged Maxim to run for ArbCom a few years ago, nominated Primefac for his RfB, and have voted for WTT in every ACE he's run in. The problem many of the old hands are opposing on is not the concept of a new arbcrat. Its the idea that such a disproportionate number of active bureaucrats would be arbs if this passes. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:58, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure about that. People who have had accounts for a long time on Wikipedia do not necessarily have more experience with online communities than people who have newer Wikipedia accounts. For example, I've been editing for under four years but I've been participating in online communities for almost 40 years (I'm going to guess that's longer than most active editors have been alive, but I'm not sure), since the days of Usenet and BBSes. My theory is that some editors who were around during Wiki's earlier wild-west days (which I'd say is probably pre-2010 or maybe pre-2015) have had it imprinted upon them that Wiki's earlier wild-west days is just how online communities function; I think some of these editors actually have very little experience with online communities outside of Wikipedia. Thus, they evaluate proposals in 2022 as if it were still 2012 or 2007... e.g., "concentration of power is a bad thing", because in those days, abuse of advanced permissions was rampant... but it's not so these days (at least not since Fred Bauder fiasco in 2018, in my estimation). I think newer editors are more realistic about what Wikipedia is today... they realize that there are very few people who want to volunteer for these very-uninteresting roles, and that there is in reality very little damage that people in these roles can do, because the community is getting better and better at oversight (see, e.g., our recent spate of finally dealing with long-term "unblockable", the increase in desysops, the new blood in Arbcom, and UCOC, which is an issue that divides along the same fault lines as "concentration of power"). You say "more experience," I say "out of touch". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯Levivich 18:10, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I guess I'm personally not able to believe that Wikipedia is the only place inside or outside the internet that is not susceptible to people who frequently talk in a closed setting agreeing with one another on the basis of being more familiar with how each other think. There's a reason volunteer communities both in real life and online try to have diversity in leadership ranks beyond just needing more hands. People who have been here longer and have had more advanced roles are more likely to have experienced this elsewhere, whether in real life, elsewhere on the internet, or on Wikipedia just as a function of math (i.e. they're older than many, though not all, of the new accounts.) You don't have to agree with the sentiment, but it is certainly a point of view well within the mainstream of how organizations function. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:21, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No doubt Wikipedia is susceptible to people who frequently talk in a closed setting agreeing with one another. That's why I want more crats and why I'm supporting these two RFBs. "Arbcrats" aren't as big of a groupthink danger as "calcified crats". Levivich 14:26, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Given the consistent success of incumbent bureaucrats at Committee elections, it appears that 20%'s composition is pretty skewed towards the "elite" instead of the general community. Actually it doesn't mean that at all byeond the idea that anyone who knows what an arb or a crat is is already very elite. My point to k6ka is that there's some minority of editors who find this troubling, but the impact of that minority is different at ACE and RfB. If a candidate at ACE attracts 20% opposition they finish in first place - see Worm in last year's election. If a candidate at RfB attracts 20% opposition they're below the expected threshold (though maybe not with a crat chat). The community has set different levels of consensus for a 1 year position (50%), for a 2 year position (60%) and for an indefinite one (~85%) which doesn't seem outlandish to me. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 23:49, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Levivich, TonyBallioni, Barkeep49, Sdrqaz, and K6ka: It's almost impossible to make any comparisons at all between RfX and ACE. An RfX is a concentrated, one-off open scrutiny of an individual where the votes can easily influence, in real time, the votes still to come. ACE, being a secret poll (albeit after some semblance of due dilligence and questions by a few members of the community and their voter guides) is a popularity vote rather than a debate, and where due to its low number of contenders for the seats, most of them will get in anyway. Irrespective of what the theoretical pass bars should be for a one or two year term, the actual result of ACE is just maths – That's going to lead to different results at ACE and RfB on the basis of numbers alone. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:14, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We had 1,570 votes in ACE2021 and 468 in our last RfX. There is, of course, a variety of reasons behind the turnout discrepancy (Kudpung points to some of them), but it is undeniable that there is a large section of the community that rarely votes at RfXs but do vote at ACEs. If that 20% has the same representation in the wider community, we would expect incumbent bureaucrats running at ACE to have a discernible lower support ceiling. You can call the "elite" what you want: "hyper-engaged in community processes" is one way to look at it, but the concern that there is mixing between the pools of bureaucrats and arbitrators is evidently one that is held less commonly among the rest of the community. Sdrqaz (talk) 21:39, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe not wanting to be involved in RfX extends to the voters and not just the applicants. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:54, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The very reasons why there is a much higher turnout for ACE than RfX are 1). It's a straight vote and not a debate (as I mentioned above), but more importantly 2). The voters will never need to account for their votes. 3). It's an easy vote which requires no research. 4). Every user who qualifies to vote is canvassed by a mass-message talk page notification which guarantees a quick participation by users who are otherwise not in the slightest bit interested in Wikipedia governance. but also to over 1,000 admins and other editors on the admin newsletter list, who had already received the official notification. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:03, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above bureaucratship discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the talk page of either this nomination or the nominated user). No further edits should be made to this page.

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