Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 156

1. Option 1 (i.e., adhering to
   WP:NCCAPS) will always be my choice. Since I recognize the value of compromise, I would be willing to agree to a compromise that observes naming conventions while allowing title-case capitalization in running text. Whether that's a helpful way to meet in the middle or whether it amounts to splitting the baby, I can't quite say. --BDD (talk
   ) 04:53, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
2. Support removal of capitalisation for
   talk
   ) 08:53, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

   It's not just fauna;

   WP:NCFLORA has been pushing this, too, with a local "consensus" of what seems to be a whopping two editors. There are some botany fields where some journals capitalize some plants names, and this has been seen as an excuse to force it on articles here. Sames goes for three kinds of flying insects.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

    ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  14:03, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

3. Support removal of capitalization and not only for article titles - the fact that general-purpose references like OED don't need capitalization convinces me that this is just a specialism eccentricity we don't need to follow. I'd have felt less strongly (but would still have taken the same view) if we didn't have the knock-on effect of capitalizing non-avian species in the running text of bird articles. This effect becomes particularly ugly in places like
   WP:NCCAPS to all common names of fauna, without exception, though I would also accept the compromise that BDD suggests for article titles only, not running text. --Stfg (talk
   ) 11:01, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
4. Support per the above comments. Especially when considered with the other style guides, dictionaries and encyclopedias, along with
   WP:SSF PaleAqua (talk
   ) 11:05, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
5. Support using the generally correct capitalization (e.g., lowercase for fauna, Title Case for individual animals) for all articles, rather than the jargony Significant Capitalization for Things That Some Find Important. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:59, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

   To be clear, do you mean "individual animals" such as

   talk

   ) 13:09, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

   Right, "individual animals" analogous to "individual people". So

   Tweety Pie or Fox Mulder). -- JHunterJ (talk

   ) 13:21, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

6. Support unless we also start writing "Black Rhinoceros" and such. I note that the (external) guideline that supporters of the deviating capitalization cite states that bird names should be capitalized in "an ornithological context. Here we are writing in an "encyclopedical context"... --Randykitty (talk) 15:32, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

   The same camp actually did have us doing just that; see talk archives of Cougar (which was being capitalized mid-sentence) for how indefensible but strident that position got.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:36, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

7. Support per the above, per
   WP:NCCAPS, and per usage in reliable sources, which nearly uniformly supports lowercasing bird species names by a healthy margin. (See ngram evidence below.) Dohn joe (talk
   ) 16:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
8. Support. The evidence is that generalist publications do not capitalize bird names. An exception for birds would lead to awkward sentences: "An Egyptian Plover cleaning the teeth of an Egyptian crocodile..." Pburka (talk) 01:30, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
9. Eventually remove captitalisation from the names of bird articles [as we did by consensus at ] black crowned crane – since that lets WP be both more self consistent and more consistent with general-audience publications that talk about birds. Being out of sync with specialist ornithology publications will not make WP look less professional. Dicklyon (talk) 02:40, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
10. Support removing capitalization. The community's overwhelming use of lowercase has been codified in
    talk
    ) 05:25, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
11. Support removal of capitalization, per virtually all real-world sources that are not specialist publications for a specialist audience who (wink, wink) already know the convention in those journals and field guides [and the two actually capitalize for different reasons, a fact the pro-caps arguments always try to ignore]. Also remove exceptionalism verbiage from all five relevant guidelines and normalize them to MOS, which is the controlling guideline here, not
    WP:OFFICIALNAME, so whatever spelling is most used by RSes (this time the specialist sources, which are reliable on facts, not style), is the spelling to use on Wikipedia, regardless how we style it, and regardless what some org. like IOC prefers.] I'll elaborate, later, reasons why the capitalization being forced on running prose and on article titles (that's a style matter, not a factual AT naming matter; AT defers to MOS on style, as do all the NC guidelines) is not tenable and is not in fact justifiable with the claims made by its proponents; for now, it's way past my bed time.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  12:53, 10 April 2014 (UTC) I've added a list of 6 reasons why IOC's own statements about capitalization are clear rationales to not use it here at WP, and an analysis of the policy reasons that IOC's real-world lack of acceptance and points of conflict with other sources mean we can't impose it as a standard here to begin with, style questions aside.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢
     ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:31, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

    If it's necessary for a compromise, so be it, but I really wouldn't want to see ledes cluttered with "alternate" names that differ only in capitalization, even if they are sourced. --BDD (talk) 18:14, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

    Right; the example I gave had different grammar and hyphenation, not just different capitalization; I was trying to make the point that if there's a significantly different name, it can be given in the lead. The material worked up at #A simple way forward on common names of species shows such a case, too, and then examples where in a similar case, e.g. just a difference of capitalization, this would just be noted in a footnote.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:24, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

12. Decapitalize. But seriously? Why can't we ever file a legit, actual RfC with a clear yes-or-no? There's no actual closing date here. I hope this receives the attention it deserves. Rereading the C/cougar archives (to say nothing of the cheetah) infuriated me yet again, and people just... I mean, it's really not a big thing, but consistency is good. A class of animals is not under any circumstances a proper noun. Red Slash 02:05, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

    Thanks for your comment. It raises an idea: if it improve the process, can we simply advertise this discussion as a request for comment (and add the relevant template at the beginning)? Mama meta modal (talk) 18:12, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

13. Support removing capitalization per User:Pburka's example above (Egyptian Plover cleaning a crocodile's teeth). Ericoides (talk) 04:56, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
14. Decapitalise. Having read most of below, I find JHunterH convincing.
    Assistant Secretary of State should also be decapitalised, as they are not proper names, not referring to specific things. Don't support BDD splitting the baby. Where careful writing can't avoid an ambiguity, use italics. --SmokeyJoe (talk
    ) 10:43, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
15. Support avoiding capitalization. I see no reason why avian species in particular should not follow the general community consensus on orthography for fauna. Snow (talk) 00:34, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
16. Support general-English rules. Wikipedia is a general-English publication and, right now, the general English rule is to use lowercase. However, I could certainly live with SchreiberBike's second or third proposal. I'd also like to add that I love all the sources and evidence that have been posted in support of both sides of this issue. This shouldn't be about one person's whim over another's. It should be about what's correct. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:35, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
17. Support as the
    local consensus on this matter doesn't override the fact that we are a general encyclopedia which should be following standard English capitalization rules. Incidentally, since there seems to be some confusion over what a proper noun is, I'd advise anyone who argues bird names are inherently proper nouns to consult the linked article. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい
    ) 18:50, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
18. Support. The current state of affairs seems like an unjustified deviation from our standard practices, as explained in
    WP:NCCAPS. Our policy is that we don't do something just because others do it. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk
    ) 03:26, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
19. Support. I can see no damage being done to the encyclopaedia from decapitilising and no major damage from keeping the capitals. So for the sake of consistency, slightly improved readability and to hopefully put this ongoing feud to bed for once and all I see this as the best option. AIRcorn (talk) 08:10, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
20. Support Option 1 (no caps) for purely political reasons. My purpose is piling on, specifically to create a supermajority and force a decision. The headcount is running 20-7 in favor of no caps, and I'm putting in with the majority (if it was running the other way I'd support Option 2). I have no opinion on the merits, think that either choice is equally acceptable and that it's not worthwhile to over-think this. I believe that headcount matters and should be taken quite strongly into account for a discussion that's this well attended and is running 3-1 in favor of one of the propositions, and where the merits of the case come down to opinion and personal style preference and so no camp has the clear upper hand on strength of argument. I insist that my "vote" not be discounted for being political; quite the opposite, since I'm thinking first and foremost of the benefit to the Wikipedia of ending this trivial contention which is causing high emotion and bad feeling over a small matter. And I encourage other editors to join me. Herostratus (talk) 12:19, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
21. Support lowercase/no special caps—Not uppercasing is absolutely a legitimate choice for a serious published work; for example, top-shelf journals like Nature use lowercase for bird names. So which do we pick? Well, why not be consistent with other biology articles here? Why not be consistent with normal English writing? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 15:54, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
22. Support Option 1 – well said, Herostratus. And Erik, I like what you're saying too. Tony (talk) 14:01, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
23. Support for option one as this is proper English by almost any standard. The sections below comparing usage of lowercase vs. uppercase is very telling. I also strongly agree with the points raised by SMcCandlish at #IOC's own wording makes it clear it's not intended for use here. — Huntster (t @ c) 23:24, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
24. Support lower case. Correct English usage should be Baltimore oriole, English sparrow, Siberian husky. What barbarity would be next, capitalizing Russian roulette and French kiss? —Neotarf (talk) 04:00, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
25. Support lower case. Style manuals recommend lower case. General reference works use lower case. Lower case can give additional information: "Cooper's hawk" tells us that the bird is named after a person, where "Cooper's Hawk" does not. Lower case for human, cougar and yellow-bellied sapsucker. Usage in running text should also be lower case. Article titles should follow
    WP:AT. This should apply to birds and all other species. Consistency lends credibility to Wikipedia. SchreiberBike talk
    07:29, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
26. Support lower case to match the style used by the large majority of generalist sources, and even most non-ornithological academic journals (and some ornithological journals). Tdslk (talk) 20:11, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
27. Support—Wikipedia is a generalist publication. Imzadi 1979 → 20:26, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
28. Black crowned craneis a common noun, and capitalization would make it a proper noun. In most generalist publications this is the way Black crowned crane is referred to, and Wikipedia is a generalist publication.Ack! Ack! Pasta bomb! (talk) 04:10, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
29. Support, for the reasons discussed above and below. There has never been consensus to deviate from the mainstream convention (lowercase) at Wikipedia, a practice that exists in some specialist publications for reasons inapplicable to a generalist encyclopedia. —
    David Levy
    04:29, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
30. Support per generalism rationales above. —
    talk) (contribs
    ) 05:32, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
31. Support. I also edit in subfields which capitalize things that WP doesn't, but when in Rome...
    this one
    .
32. Support. I've always found it strange that we use such capitalization. Time to restore normal capitalization. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:35, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
33. Support Option 1 Having skimmed through the arguments for and against, and the body of evidence in favour of each option below, I can only conclude that this is the most sensible way forward. WaggersTALK 12:18, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
34. Support lower case per many of the discussions above. Fredlyfish4 (talk) 23:25, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
35. Support Using capitals looks silly. This should also apply to butterflies and plant names too. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:18, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
36. Support. Lowercase is the standard style, whatever the strange and occasionally tortured rationales put forth by the uppercase proponents. --Calton | Talk 02:55, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
37. Support lower casing. If I understand correctly, the name of a bird species is currently capitalized in bird articles, but lower cased elsewhere? This is just bizarre, as if bird articles were some sort of independent kingdom. All the style heavyweights say to lower case vernacular species names: Merriam-Webster, Oxford, American Heritage, Random House, Columbia, and Britannica. Two from one (talk) 06:30, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

    You've linked to "articles" (if you can call a dictionary entry that) about groups of birds: eagle, bluebird, finch. WP:BIRDS wouldn't capitalize those articles either. What do those references say about individual species? Nothing! Because they don't write articles about individual species. Apples and oranges, my friend, apples and oranges. MeegsC (talk) 16:06, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

    Good point. What about these? Merriam-Webster, Oxford, American Heritage, Random House, Columbia and Britannica. Pburka (talk) 17:23, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

    Thanks, Pburka. At least we're comparing like with like now! MeegsC (talk) 13:58, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

38. Support lower case. WP should be consistent in style across all its topics: we shouldn't have mountain strongholds at individual WikiProjects. WP should also reflect general modern usage: the current capitalization of bird names looks very odd to the general reader. Spicemix (talk) 19:48, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
39. Support My spontaneous reaction on encountering this controversy was "Yeah, sounds sensible to distinguish a white-throated warbler from the White-Throated Warbler...". As I delved into the debates and discussions, I became more and more dubious. It's bad enough with awkwardnesses like "predators such as Ospreys, herons and even otters" in a section on feeding habits mentioned in !vote #4. But my mind was finally made up when I noticed that "bald eagle" was capitalised, in both the body text and the legend in the
    positive feedback loop.
    In the end, it all boils down that wiki is an encyclopedia and wp:NotAbirdspotterfieldmanual. It is not a helpful convention from a didactic and encyclopedic point of view. ^walk victor falk ^talk
    22:55, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
40. Support per
    talk/_contribs
    ) 08:46, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

• Support removal of capitalisation. We have no reason to maintain the current
  specialist style fallacy).
  We have to chose between following the internal rules of a group of ornithologists (option 2) or respect the Wikipedia community guidelines (and standard practice) regarding animal species name (ensuring quality, clarity and consistency, e.g. naming conventions).
  See also Talk:Crowned crane and Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2014 March#Black crowned crane for more complete explanations.
  Mama meta modal (talk) 06:00, 9 April 2014 (UTC). :vote struck - sock of blocked user - see [9]

  Was it not stated at the beginning of this discussion request to discuss whether option 1 or 2 was correct based on their individual merits and NOT on the fact that that is the way the MOS says to do it. The question is should we change the MOS? and if the argument against changing the MOS is "No, because the MOS says this is the way to do things, therefore that is the best way", then why bother having the discussion in the first place. Sorry It kind of bothers me that the first vote stated this as rationale. speednat (talk) 18:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

  Thanks for your message. Do not worry, the source of my position is not the current rules of our encyclopaedia. My motivation is common sense and standard practice for animal species name, even outside Wikipedia.

  External guidelines may not be consistent; for this and other reasons, Wikipedia has its own conventions. It seems obvious that the usual practice for fauna species name as well as general external style guidelines should prevail here and also apply to birds.

  The reason usually given to support capitalisation is to avoid potential ambiguities. But it is not always a solution and, more importantly, there are many other ways to tackle this issue. For example "common types of starling" or "common starling" or "Sturnus vulgaris" or other formulations allow to precisely define what you would like to write about. Also, even if it would in some cases potentially reduce ambiguities, it make no sense to violate grammar as well as standard practice or to treat differently different groups of animals.

  Mama meta modal (talk) 19:00, 10 April 2014 (UTC).

  What I don't see, is the mass confusion that capitalization will cause. Interspersing Latin names for the laymen is substantially more confusing than the odd Capital.

  I MeaN ReallY whiCh is HardEr to Read?
  

  The in esso previous statement imperium in imperio or this intra muros piece of lohannes est nomen eius writing?
  

  Just checking speednat (talk) 00:03, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

  You make two mistakes because genus names are capitalised and Latin words such as species names are italicised. Mama meta modal (talk) 06:42, 11 April 2014 (UTC).

  I simply see no reason to capitalise these names and no reason to treat birds differently than all the other animals. Mama meta modal (talk) 06:46, 11 April 2014 (UTC).

• Oppose. All my bird (all my moth and buttefly) books capitalise common names. I really don't see why people object to capitalisation. Lowercase just looks weird. Chuunen Baka (talk • contribs) 10:56, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Bird article names: option 2

If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes. However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp |username}}.

1. Option 2 - my vote is for changing the guidelines to include caps for bird names - we need somewhere (discussion section?) to show external evidence/sources to reflect why we (or anyone) feels we should pursue either option. Agree about opening this up now and a moratorium. If this is tabled and gains broad community input, I will live by the result indefinitely. Life's too short to argue over this repeatedly. Agree that having this out now is much preferable to dickering around with guideline pages to reflect usage that is not guideline. The reason I vote caps is that birds have proper names as per the IOC, plus government departments and guidebooks use caps. There is nothing to lose - it's not as if you can't read a capitalised name either. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:08, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

   Not to pick on you, you're just first, and listed so many things to address here, in summary form: The preferences of the IOC (not actually a taxonomic authority) are not universally followed in ornithology generally or ornithological publishing, academic or vernacular. They are ignored by zoologists in every other discipline even when writing about birds. Even other ornithological organizations that support capitalization have different standards for exactly how to do it, and frequently also disagree with IOC on the actual names themselves. Everyday publications like newspapers and other encyclopedias do not follow IOC style. Not even all WP:BIRDS members support this capitalization. See

   undue weight.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

    ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:49, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   Animal species names are not proper nouns. The fact that committees of specialised scientists study, discuss and define them does not make them proper nouns. Otherwise, diseases, proteins and virtually anything could be classified so... Also, Casliber, could you detail why should not birds treated like any other animal species?

   Mama meta modal (talk) 19:15, 10 April 2014 (UTC).

   Funnily enough, when I started editing here, most animal, plant and fungi names were capitalised. The decision to push lower case in force came through from the efforts of a few editors in 2007 and 2012 in reaffirming the MOS. As I have said elsewhere, no other organism has a big committee made up of experts from all around the world decreeing on common names.^{[citation needed]} And we reflect what the outside world does. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:47, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   I don't think "most" is actually true, though to some of us it seemed that way. Certainly quite a lot were capitalized. My

   WP:NPOV, etc. are often complained about in this way). There's no actual consensus problem with any of these guidelines and policies or they wouldn't be labelled {{guideline}} or {{policy}} and people wouldn't be following them with remarkable consistency.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

    ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:00, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

   On what RS basis do you suggest that only among birds does a big committee decide common names? Actually, let me ask that below; you raise another point that's part of the same sub-discussion. (Other than me looking stupid.)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:01, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

   @SMcCandlish - stop using emotive phrases such as "grovelling" - it makes you look stupid - if you had any idea and actually looked at the names made up of the board it is a collection of researchers and scientists - would only there was more of that in botany. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:51, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   @

   argument to authority and hero worship. Why would we decide that Stephen Hawking and Neil DeGrasse Tyson must be obeyed on what to italicize just because they're amazing cosmologists and (hypothetically) they decided that we should now italicize the names of stars, galaxies and planets (in cosmology/astronomy journals)?  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

    ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:46, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

   I am not sure why we, the bird editors, even bother to instigate change, we are obviously not as smart as these other editors, and should relegate ourselves to just following what others tell us to do. speednat (talk) 23:06, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   I am not sure why we, the Wikipedia editors, even bother to have style guidelines; we are obviously not as smart as the bird editors, who are infallible. -- JHunterJ (talk) 23:30, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   This "us versus them" attitude is a major part of the problem. At no point has anyone outside WikiProject Birds attempted to segregate (let alone subordinate) its members. On the contrary, we ask that you join us in following our common set of style guidelines (which you have as much right as anyone to help shape). It's the WikiProject, through the will of some participants, that seeks to separate itself from the rest of the Wikipedia editing community and disregard the input thereof. —

   David Levy

   23:37, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   Casliber, one group of ornithologists is not a good representation of the outside world. And their internal guidelines are not consistent with the standard practice for animal species in and out of Wikipedia. Mama meta modal (talk) 06:51, 11 April 2014 (UTC).

   Not even consistent among ornithologists, don't forget. IOC's is just the most favored among them of competing naming standards ideas.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:46, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

2. Support Option 2 (although I'm quite looking forward to american kestrel as the new style if it happens) Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:25, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

   Of course, proper names within bird names should still be capitalized (e.g., American kestrel). If this is not already clear, it should be. Compare to, for example, Przewalski's horse. --BDD (talk) 16:34, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

   Exactly. "The American kestrel (Falco sparverius), sometimes colloquially known as the sparrow hawk, is a small falcon, ..." -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:36, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

   No one has ever, ever in this debate in the entire nine or ten years its been running has proposed nonsense like "american kestrel", and the wording at all four guildilnes pages says not to do something like that (it's about the only thing they do get consistent with each other). Injecting

   argument to emotion combined with straw man and red herring: three fallacies for the price of one! We'll pass, thanks.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

    ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:49, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   I agree with BDD, JHunterJ and SMcCandlish. And I would like to ask Jimfbleak to explain the motivations of his vote. Mama meta modal (talk) 19:04, 10 April 2014 (UTC).

   I am not sure why we, the bird editors, even bother to instigate change, we are obviously not as smart as these other editors, and should relegate ourselves to just following what others tell us to do. speednat (talk) 23:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   I am not sure why we, the Wikipedia editors, even bother to have style guidelines; we are obviously not as smart as the bird editors, who are infallible. -- JHunterJ (talk) 23:30, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   This "us versus them" attitude is a major part of the problem. At no point has anyone outside WikiProject Birds attempted to segregate (let alone subordinate) its members. On the contrary, we ask that you join us in following our common set of style guidelines (which you have as much right as anyone to help shape). It's the WikiProject, through the will of some participants, that seeks to separate itself from the rest of the Wikipedia editing community and disregard the input thereof. —

   David Levy

   23:37, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

3. I support allowing editors to capitalize bird names given that this is what the specialist sources do. But I'm confused about what we're voting for here. Where did options 1 and 2 come from? Is this the RfC, or is this a discussion about setting up an RfC, and has this discussion been publicized? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:43, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

   This is not a

   WP:SNOW might well be applied. Let's see where it leads. Andrewa (talk

   ) 04:28, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   But "the specialist sources" don't do it; some of the specialist sources do it. Meanwhile, the overwhelmingly vast majority of reliable sources do not do it, including the most prestigious zoological journals even when they run ornithological papers. There is no policy-based rationale anywhere on Wikipedia for a) ignoring a preponderance of reliable sources because their target audience isn't as narrow as you'd like, or b) ignoring the most reliable academic sources in favor of less renowned ones just because the scope of the former are a little broader and their peer review panels aren't so insular, or c) ever, to begin with, treating reliable sources on scientific facts about a biological category (for example) as the most reliable sources on English language style in an encyclopedia.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:49, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

4. Per Jimfbleak and BDD. Perhaps MOS needs to better define what a proper noun is. Chris Troutman (talk) 00:48, 10 April 2014 (UTC) Cas Liber. I posit that these bird names should be treated like proper names/proper nouns. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:37, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

   But BDD supports option 1. As for proper noun, the MoS uses it as defined; there's some misuse of it in application to species, but not in the MoS. -- JHunterJ (talk) 01:49, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   I think you both mean

   proper name not proper noun. There is a difference. Andrewa (talk

   ) 04:28, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   I think I meant to use the term I was responding too. Some linguists treat them differently, and some do not. You'll note that they land on the same article, which discusses this. I happen to agree with the do nots, but in any event, here I was using the term as it was raised in the comment I was responding to. Now, this difference you see, how does it affect Chris Troutman's statement or mine? -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:18, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   Understood. My point is, proper noun either includes or is exclusively (depending as you say on the authority) names that consist of a single word, and those are not at issue here, so I think it might be helpful to use the more specific term. But feel free to use the term you think best. Andrewa (talk) 16:18, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   Bird name are not proper nouns and will not become so whatever the result of the vote is. We are not deciding how English grammar should be - we are simply voting about style recommendations. Mama meta modal (talk) 19:08, 10 April 2014 (UTC).

   @Chris troutman: As pointed above you've !voted per someone who opposed capitalization, BDD, but also someone who supported capitalization, Jimfbleak, simultaneously. Furthermore, Jimfbleak provided a demonstrably false rationale (that "American" would be decapitalized as "american"). So, could you maybe clarify what your actual position is?  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  08:51, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

   @SMcCandlish:, et al. Sorry for the confusion. Decapitalization of American kestral and the like proves the foolishness of option 1. I'm not sure how that's a "false rationale." Chris Troutman (talk) 17:37, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

   @Chris troutman:: It's a false rationale because no one has proposed such a thing, none of the five guidelines in question would ever permit it, no real-world style guides would allow it, and it's simply never been suggested by anyone in the discussion. Changing "American kestrel" to "american kestrel" would be reverted on sight by anyone on either side of this debate. Hope that is clearer.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:00, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

5. If we are to capitalize proper nouns and the Chicago Manual of Style states " A Proper noun is the specific name of a person, place, or thing or the title of a work." It then gives examples of John Doe, Moscow, the Hope Diamond, and Citizen Kane. How does American Robin not fit into this class? An American Robin is a specific name of a thing, as much so as John Doe is a specific person. The thing that the American Robin is being specific about is not a specific bird, as that would be like Big Bird, but a specific class of bird, the thing being a class or species.^[1]
   ISBN 0-226-10420-6.

   And plumbers, baseball players and used car salesmen are specific classes of people. Should we refer to them as "Plumbers", "Baseball Players" and "Used Car Salesmen"?
   Under your interpretation of what constitutes a proper noun, what nouns aren't proper? —

   David Levy

   18:51, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   Which brings up a fine point, it is all subjective. By definition of one of the rock-solid authorities for the rules that we are basing the MOS on, in its quoted definition, one can break it down, very simply. So, yes there is a problem with the rules that we have based the MOS on. The Manual of Style wasn't just thought up one day, though it was created through the habits, uses, practices etc of our society. Did all of the people wake up one morning and say we capitalize England, but not house, no it evolved and this is what is happening with birds and other fauna. Some people use one style, some use another, and over time who's to say that the Chicago Manual won't change what we capitalize, just like words that weren't, are, and spelling changes. Do we go downe to the local shoppe, do I refer to someone using the word thou, is ain't considered a word. The language and the rules that govern our language are constantly evolving and not based on people standing around saying "This is not the way to speak", or "Ain't isn't a word". I mean how many of us remember being told that last one, but guess what? it is a word. Why because people ignored those that said it wasn't a word and kept using it and now it is. The change is coming, oh you naysayer, accept it or be a footnote in history. :) speednat (talk) 19:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   No, it's not all subjective, even if the language is living. The style we use is the current one. It may be different than the style of ye olde Wikipaedia (1650 edition), and it may differ from whatever the 2114 edition of Wikipedia calls itself. That it changes doesn't mean it must be subjective. But let's say that it's subjective. Wikipedia articles would still be subjected to it. So this "fine" point is pointless.-- JHunterJ (talk) 19:51, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   It certainly is true that "some people" capitalize the common names of birds species, but not because they're proper nouns. I'm aware of exactly one ornithologist who advocates that they be treated as such (and even he hasn't claimed that they actually are in the real world). —

   David Levy

   20:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   And he's not a linguist anyway. There are probably linguists who think it's stupid that ornithologists concoct pseudo-Latin names like Ninox novaeseelandiae, but we don't treat them as ornithological authorities.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:00, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

   In wielding The Chicago Manual as an authority (with a footnote!), I'm wondering how User:Speednat somehow missed page 357, section 8.128, which explicitly states, Whether in lists or in running text, the specific "Latin" names of plants and animals are italicized. The genus name is capitalized, and the species name (even if it is a proper adjective) is lowercased [emphasis mine], not to mention section 8.136 (vernacular names of plants and animals) which specifically uses "Cooper's hawk" as an example? --Calton | Talk 03:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

   speednat, how many Citizen Kanes have you seen? Know how many Hope Diamonds there are in the world? Ever had a flock of John Does in your backyard? (Yes, there are multiple John Does, just as there are multiple Moscows, but these are merely individuals people/cities that share a name.) --BDD (talk) 19:05, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   There is one species of birds called American Robin, that is more of a proper noun, if a proper noun can be compared in a superlative manner, then John Doe or Moscow. speednat (talk) 19:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   Also, I assume there are thousands or millions of Citizen Kanes on DVD, they all get capitalized right?speednat (talk) 19:47, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   Right. And if you wanted to, you could refer to them as "the digital video discs of the film Citizen Kane", since "digital video disc" is the common noun there, not the specific film Citizen Kane. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:53, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   Think of it this way. I could have a cage with three American robins in it. Let's say I call them Batman, Robin, and Cobie. Conversely, I could visit Moscow, Moscow, Idaho, and Moscow, Pennsylvania. I could call them Moscow, Potatoland, and Coaltown in my head if I wanted to distinguish them. But still, the relevant analogy would be Moscow is to city as Batman is to American robin. I could use more or less specific terms (settlement, bird, etc.), but it doesn't change the fact that in the analogy, the former term is a proper name, while the second is not. --BDD (talk) 20:14, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   What kind of bird is that in your backyard? Oh, that's an American robin. What kind of bird is that on Sesame Street? Oh, that's Big Bird. Not Oh, that's a Big Bird. American robin is not a specific name of a thing as much as John Doe is a specific person. A specific class of bird is still a

   common noun (or "class of entities"), just like the specific class of people "plumber". -- JHunterJ (talk

   ) 19:13, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   I agree with David Levy, BDD and JHunterJ. Animal names are simply not proper names. See also my comments above (19:15, 10 April 2014 and 19:08, 10 April 2014). Speednat, do you have other arguments supporting your vote ? Mama meta modal (talk) 19:28, 10 April 2014 (UTC).

   Of course the aforementioned other authorities that use Caps. speednat (talk) 19:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

   Speednat, if you're serious about your !vote, I have five Hope Diamonds I'll sell you. >;-)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  08:52, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

6. Support per Aldous Huxley. I think I qualify as a disinterested editor: I was unaware that there had been much contention on this topic and to the best of my recollection I have only one bird species on my watchlist and I had to look it up to see if was capitalized. I just thumbed through twelve books on birds, half of them major field guides and the rest hardly obscure, and was surprised to see how many capitalize bird names: all twelve. Other editors note above that the IOC and other relevant entities also capitalize, so it's clearly common practice. Now, the common practice among authorities on birds might not sit well with the taxonomic establishment, but that need not concern us; our articles on birds should reflect the way that myriad reliable sources refer to those birds, not the way taxonomists would prefer they do. There's also a little matter of avoiding ambiguity. I see some silly examples in this discussion, but in fact it's a genuine concern. For instance, the phrase "American yellow warbler" can be read two ways and the lowercase style could introduce confusion in certain contexts (since there's more than one species of yellow warbler and neither respects international boundaries). "American Yellow Warbler", on the other hand, is absolutely unambiguous. As a more general comment, I would note that the MOS has guideline status, not policy status, which ought to mean that the bar we set for making exceptions isn't ridiculously high. So what if birds get treated differently from other clades or classes? Maybe they should be. (If so, that's no excuse for trying to extend the bird exception to other critters, of course.) Rivertorch (talk) 05:32, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

   You're quoting incorrectly inappropriately! The Huxley observation, like Emerson's famous "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", is about a person changing his or her mind over time, not about a publication using conflicting style rules or anything even vaguely comparable to that. As far as I can determine (and I've looked, more than once) every well-known quotation on "consistency" refers to personal consistency of opinion and action. You're presenting arguments already dispelled many times. The way to distinguish between the

   WP:SSF for why that doesn't work). Did I miss anything? I'm not trying to be dismissive, it's just that this is all rehash and people get irritable with me for being wordy, so I'm keeping this short.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

    ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:23, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

   I just hate it when people are short with me. What I wrote may be rehash, but I conceived most of it independently, before I'd skimmed more than a quarter of the discussion here, so maybe great minds hash alike. I don't believe I claimed that any policy conflicts with

   essays (the latter of which you wrote). I agree with both of them in part but not completely. Wikipedia has grown more rigid over the years. In some ways this is a good thing, but it doesn't necessarily serve our coverage of a given topic very well. (Incidentally, I didn't quote "incorrectly". I applied a quote for illustrational purposes, never intending to suggest that Mr. Huxley was writing about "style rules or anything even vaguely comparable to that".) Rivertorch (talk

   ) 07:36, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

   Sorry, I didn't mean "rehash" to imply you're personally recycling arguments; rather, many of us have been over these arguments so many, many times before. Essays aren't part of a hierarchy of rules, they're jus stored reasoned arguments/rationales we're tired of repeating. I went into this (and just-a-guideline) in more detail on the related thread at

   WT:CONSENSUS yesterday. All essays were written by someone, and which names those are doesn't determine the validity of the points an essay raises. (And it's not like the "spin" of WP:SSF is any secret.) If this current poll-like discussion concludes clearly against bird capitalization (which seems likely) and the wikiproject were to accept that (which I think is terribly unlikely), I would not be among those interested in de-capitalizing bird articles all day (I would be way more interested in decapitalizing every other kind of creature in bird articles, to stop the spread of the capitalization to rodents and fish and berry bushes and whatever). There are quite a few dragonfly, moth/butterfly and (I forget what) some kind or another of plants articles that are capitalized because of similar academic journal [alleged] conventions that prefer capitalization and few people but specialists in those areas working on these articles here. There's no wave of style stormtroopers lower-casing them. No one really cares as long as a) it's not spreading to areas where many do care (see the talk archives of Cougar, etc.), and b) the us-vs.-everyone wikiproject rebellion stuff stops, which is what I most care about. It's a WP self-governance problem. You're right, I used "incorrectly" incorrectly. My poorly made point was that people in MOS-related disputes rather frequently quote Huxley or more often Emerson without realizing it doesn't apply to this context.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

    ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  08:45, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

   Damn, you mean I rehashed Huxley too? I've never seen that quote before on Wikipedia. Ah, well. What you've said here about capitalization vis-à-vis birds and other animals is nuanced and makes quite a lot of sense, but if "no one really cares" about bird capitalization per se I can't help wondering if we're going about this in the best way. If the exception that has been made for birds is being erroneously applied to mammals or fish or whatever, I'd assume that could be addressed without removing the exception for birds—perhaps by codifying the exception and defining its boundaries or maybe just by dealing with it on a case-by-case basis. As for the question of "rebellious" wikiprojects, just how much of a problem is this? A wikiproject is a loose affiliation of users who edit certain topics. If such editors are doing the lion's share (note: I didn't say "the Lion's share) of the work in a given topic area and want to establish stylistic conventions that are particularly appropriate to that topic, I don't necessarily see that as a problem. Sometimes it will conflict with MOS, sometimes it won't, but such conflicts don't seem to me to be inherently problematic. If they lead to behavioral problems, such as tag-teams coordinating reverts of good-faith "corrections", then those can be handled as they arise. I don't know. Maybe I'm naïve. As I said above, I'm not exactly familiar with the backstory here. I just am concerned about MOS being enforced too rigidly and what I see as a one-size-fits-all set of rules being applied across the board in specialized topic areas where it might be better to allow some leeway. Rivertorch (talk) 17:42, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

   @

   I've been doing the homework to back it up, and I have a lot more evidence than the 'some ignorant people are just trying to tell WP:BIRDS how to do ornithology' argument does.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

    ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:00, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

   That discussion led to the MOS:LIFE do-not-capitalize rule, and just to keep the peace for a while, an observance being included that a LOCALCONSENSUS dispute existed about birds, which was mentioned mainly to "wall off" birds and stop the re-spread of the capitalization. That has not worked, and two years is plenty of time for the pro-caps members of the wikiproject to have gotten consensus at MOS for their position if consensus was going to change.

   Not only has it not worked, but some WikiProject Birds members have been citing that text as evidence that an exception for common names of bird species has been formally codified in the MoS. I

   David Levy

   02:30, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

   Worse yet, it's led to expanding this to insects and stuff in other guidelines (

   MOS:CAPS).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

    ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:01, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

7. We should follow the sources that we rely on to write the articles - if the specialist sources use capitals, use them. It makes no sense to use specialist secondary sources for the content but not use the way they format names. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:09, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

   And if general sources don't use capitals, don't use them. It makes no sense to ignore the majority of sources. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:24, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

   The Official Congressional Directory uses all-caps for the names of representatives. Should we mimic this source? Specialist sources use various stylistic tricks to make the subject of their specialty stand out. Wikipedia is not a specialist text, so it does not make sense for us to follow conventions which are used almost exclusively in specialist texts, particularly when we have examples of non-specialist texts demonstrating a more standard style for the same words. Pburka (talk) 21:44, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

8. Support option 2. To those who say option 1 follows policies, guidelines, etc., I retort with
   WP:COMMONNAME, it is standard practice for bird names to be capitalised, those (such as the mentioned Nature) that don't are the ones deviating from common practice. Yes, this is different from 'normal English grammar' (whatever that is) and different from all other biological organisms - but that's just the way it is. - The Bushranger _{One ping only}
   03:11, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

   Not much of a retort. With

   WP:COMMONNAME, it is standard practice for bird names to be sentence-cased; those (such as the IOC) that don't are the ones deviating from that practice. -- JHunterJ (talk

   ) 10:51, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

   Wouldn't COMMONNAME—assuming it made sense to apply it to style issues—suggest that we decide on a case-by-case basis? (I think we can leave COMMONNAME out of this, though: "Bald Eagle" and "bald eagle" are the same name. The question isn't which name to use. It's just how to style that name.) ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:03, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

   Exactly! -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:48, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

   And IOC naming for birds already raises frequent

   WP:COMMONNAME conflicts anyway (see thread below about this).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

    ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  20:32, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

   The only sources I have ever seen lowercasing bird names are not sources I would consider

   Wikipedia decides to march to its own tune and ignore the way things actually are in verifiable, sourced reality in the name of "proper English". - The Bushranger _{One ping only}

   21:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

   Bushranger, surely you don't mean you've never seen authoritative sources with lowercase bird names. Is Nature really unreliable on ornithological matters? How about National Geographic or the Journal of Avian Biology? Unless you define "reliable on ornithological matters" as "uppercasing bird names," I don't think you want to make such unqualified statements. --BDD (talk) 21:58, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

   I haven't actually read those, so I stand corrected on that point. It doesn't change the fact, however, that both those sources are in error in lowercasing the names. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:01, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

   Many top-shelf journals routinely write bird species names in lowercase. I don't think it's meaningful to argue that they are in error; such usage is common enough that it is by definition not in error, unless we decide to be quite wildly prescriptivist. Anyway, I think we can set aside any argument that claims that Science and Nature are not

   reliable sources. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs

   ) 22:05, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

9. Support option 2 as they are proper names, and by the typical convention in the field. All the arguments have been opened here & elsewhere, & I won't add more. No heckling please. Johnbod (talk) 11:33, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

   Just to clarify; nobody is proposing that proper names would be lowercased; e.g. it would be New Zealand scaup not new zealand scaup; that is not, and I'm pretty sure never has been, on the table. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:24, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

   But there is clearly a dispute as to whether

   New Zealand Scaup is a proper name, as I believe it is. Johnbod (talk

   ) 16:54, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

   Except there isn't. That's a

   Wikipedia is not a guidebook or journal, and those rationales do not apply here.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

    ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  20:32, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

   Yeah, I don't think the argument that "bird species names are proper names therefore we should capitalize them" can possibly hold water, since there are so many reputable journals, books, etc that don't capitalize them. Are you really arguing that they are all wrong about a basic point of grammar like this? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 20:52, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

   Sorry to heckle Johnbod, but you have made an inaccurate statement that would be misleading if not challenged out of courtesy.

   proper name is pretty firm. Some fields using capitalisation as a style does not change the definition of "proper name". --SmokeyJoe (talk

   ) 05:16, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

   That really depends on what you mean by "entity" - the species? - and that leads to a philosophical position is with regard to the

   doi:10.1111/j.1096-0031.2011.00357.x.; de Queiroz, Kevin (2011). "Plural versus Singular common names for Amphibian and reptile Species". Herpetological Review 42 (3): 339–342.) Shyamal (talk

   ) 11:35, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

   Interesting, thank you. From what I see, it is the nature of "species" that is in doubt, not so much the linguistic meaning of "proper name". The abstract uses difficult language, but I feel "Are species names proper names?" is asking whether a species is (or can be) an entity that can be given a proper name. Personally, I think the answer is "no". No normal species is an entity. Species frequently don't have boundaries, with some variants able to breed with other species, and variants within a species unable to breed together. I understand that this is common in bird species, more so in insects, and increasingly worse in lower organisms. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:27, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

10. Support option 2. Official bird species names function as proper nouns. If it is Wikipedia policy to capitalize the genus in Passer domesticus, how can it be incostient to treat House Sparrow in a similar fashion by capitalizing it? Should we start using "passer domesticus", instead? No. Both refer to a specific species, and a consensus among scientific authorities on the subject agrees with how to write them. A blue jay (of which there are dozens of species) is not the same thing as Blue Jay (which is a particular species). Ornithological authority maintain official lists of birds-- the IOC List which WikiProject Birds uses. This is a longstanding practice that is not decreasing in usage--it is INCREASING and spreading into other fields, like butterflies, dragonflies, and mammals. Why people who know nothing about birds feel the need to dictate what happens on bird pages is beyond my comprehension. Natureguy1980 (talk) 20:23, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

    (Note: this is in response to this version of Natureguy1980's comment above) http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blue%20jay -- it's a particular species, even when correctly lowercase. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:34, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

    A dictionary is hardly an authoritative source on ornithology. What a dictionary says in this matter is completely irrelevant in my view. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. It covers specialist topics in an in-depth manner. Natureguy1980 (talk) 21:12, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

    On the contrary, a dictionary is an authoritative source on what "blue jay" means (the species) and whether it should be capitalized (it shouldn't). Its irrelevance in your view is irrelevant. -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:34, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

    We will have to disagree. Ornithologists know more about birds (and their names) than dictionaries. Natureguy1980 (talk) 22:27, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

    And dictionaries know more about English grammar than (some) ornithologists. -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:59, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

    Please, do not confuse common name and binomial nomenclature (Latin name). Firstly, none of them are grammatically proper names. Secondly, by convention, genus name and not species name of all living species are capitalised (e.g. Passer domesticus, Latimeria chalumnae, Salmonella enterica); as virtually everybody respects these convention, Wikipedia also do so. Thirdly, capitalisation of the common name of birds is only recommended by the internal rules of one group of ornithologists and is not widely used by general sources. For these reasons, as Wikipedia is not a database for specialised ornithologists but a general encyclopaedia, there is no reason to capitalise bird common names. Another important argument against capitalisation of common names is that there is no reason not treat them as all other animal species. Mama meta modal (talk) 06:47, 19 April 2014 (UTC).

    This comment I found in another forum is, I feel, worth repeating here: "When I'm providing links for non-birding friends I sometimes refer them to Wikipedia when, for instance, Cornell's All About Birds site doesn't have the information they need. But, perhaps irrationally, Wikipedia will SEEM less authoritative if they start behaving like a newspaper or popular magazine/website and not capitalizing bird common names. Every time I visit a bird-related Wikipedia page I'll notice what, to a birder, will look like non-standard use and start to wonder who wrote the article and why they dropped the capitalizations. I'll probably stop referring non-birders to it, even when the information seems to meet their needs, partly because it seems less authoritative but also because it sets a bad example to prospective members of the birding community." For better or worse, when many birders and ornithologists see uncapitalized bird names, they automatically think the source is not credible. Regardless of whether it is silly, it is true, and the result of Option 1, above, will certainly be decreased traffic from birders and ornithologists, both as users and--detrimentally for Wikipedia--contributors. Is a decrease in traffic and quality of content worth what seems to me to be a misguided crusade for ideological purity? Natureguy1980 (talk) 02:22, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

    You realize everything you're saying also applies to Nature, right? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 06:50, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

    Yes. Natureguy1980 (talk) 14:55, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

    From a bird expert in another forum: "And this is why I no longer edit Wikipedia. Don't understand why non-bird people are even getting involved. " Natureguy1980 (talk) 14:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

    They left because they don't understand Wikipedia's pillars? How they don't own their contributions, and the contributions might be mercilessly edited by others? -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:21, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

11. Support option 2. MeegsC (talk) 01:49, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

    As everybody is automatically warned when commenting this page: "If you are coming to express an opinion on a topic of discussion, please include a rationale that addresses Wikipedia policy, or your opinion may be ignored." So, please, explain us the rationale of your vote. Mama meta modal (talk) 07:02, 22 April 2014 (UTC).

    Right. For clarity then. To indicate the name of the species as clearly as we indicate the name of a car model (i.e. Ford Galaxy). I've written many, many newspaper articles, including some which included references to bird species. As you say, very few newspapers capitalize bird names (though a few do). And more than once, I've had well-meaning editors completely screw up bird names while "revising" the articles. One, for example, removed the "little" from every reference to "little blue heron" after the first instance (i.e. leaving "blue heron", a non-existent bird) and later told me "Well, I thought you'd already said it was little." If such mistakes happen with careful editors, I expect even more to happen here on Wikipedia. MeegsC (talk) 22:17, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

12. Support keeping capitalization. Example: "Joe returned from a trip out west and was happy to have seen a blue jay." Without capitalization this is confusing because we do not know if Joe saw a Blue Jay, an eastern species rare in the west, or a jay of that has blue plumage which could be any one of several species such as Stellar's, Scrub, or Mexican Jays— Preceding unsigned comment added by Haans42 (talk • contribs) 00:45, 23 April 2014‎ (UTC)

    Another likely sock/meat puppet. One other edit in the previous six years before this !vote, and timing is also suspicious, coming on the heels of the other likely puppets. Dohn joe (talk) 14:45, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

13. Support option 2. Experts in a given domain often have a good reason for their idiosyncrasies. The birders have explained this one to my satisfaction; it is not, or at least not purely, a mere caprice, but has some plausible advantages. Experts may be presumed to know what facilitates communication on the topic, probably better than general style experts do. If they were asking for something really weird, that would be different, but it doesn't seem to me that they are. --Trovatore (talk) 00:48, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

    Compare

    WP:JARGON. Experts in a given domain often do not know what facilitates communication to general audiences. -- JHunterJ (talk

    ) 11:12, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

    That can happen, but it does not appear to have happened here. As I say, if they were asking for something really weird, that would be different, but they don't seem to be. The "general audiences" line is often overdone at WP. WP should not talk down to "general audiences", but should be their tool for entry to the material at an expert level. When experts have found by experience that a certain choice improves precision of discourse, that needs to be taken on board. --Trovatore (talk) 19:12, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

    To interject quickly:

    not what Wikipedia is about in at least 5 different ways listed at that page.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

     ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  20:59, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

    Taken on board alongside the expert experience from Nature, National Geographic, Journal of Ornithology, Journal of Avian Biology, etc., etc. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:23, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

    Our bird experts are more qualified to weigh those various inputs than our style experts are. --Trovatore (talk) 20:54, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

14. Support option 2. Capitalizing bird names imparts clarity in a very simple, elegant way. Capitalized names may look like 19th century poetry to someone who does not read, write, and think about bird species, but lower case names look amateurish to those of us who do. The sentence "The arctic tern is a common tern" is confusing nonsense that would require much verbiage to explain. Unambiguous and totally different in meaning are: "The Arctic Tern is a common tern" (perhaps written about the species at Potter Marsh near Anchorage) and "The Arctic Tern is a Common Tern" (perhaps written regarding a photo of a bird photographed at a lake in Arizona). And to say "The Common Tern is an arctic tern" has yet another totally different meaning, but it would be a false statement. Birdernaturalist (talk) 17:07, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

    I truly hope that we're not relying on capitalization where clear writing would be preferable. If a sentence relies solely on capitalization to avoid ambiguity it's in need of editing. "The arctic tern is a seabird commonly found in maritime habitats." "Common terns have occasionally been spotted north of the Arctic Circle." (NB: Arctic Circle is a proper noun.) Pburka (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

    To be fair, your example sentences would have to express the same ideas as mine. For example,"The species known as arctic tern is a common species of tern." Or "The bird claimed to be the species known as arctic tern is actually the species known as common tern." So, I'd mirror that if a sentence relies solely on excess verbiage to avoid ambiguity, it's in need of editing. Capitalized bird names are merely an extremely useful, simple, and elegant way to refer to actual species and to avoid memorizing scientific names, and there really should not be any controversy over it. While it may rub some people wrong from a stylistic point of view, they would eventually change their minds if they ever started trying to communicate about birds on a regular basis. Birdernaturalist (talk) 20:00, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

    But the point is that Wikipedia can't really rely simply on capitalization to clarify how to parse the sentence. "The Arctic Tern is a common tern." is probably not a sentence we should have in any article here, since few readers will know this convention. The ability to write otherwise-difficult-to-parse sentences, in and of itself, ends up not really being much of a benefit to Wikipedia. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 20:36, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

    (ec)Ah, no. This is a general encyclopedia and the style should reflect that. Why should everyone learn a different style when they are reading an article on birds? Your argument for capitalization, is based on maintaining a specific style while choosing to ignore the style that is in palace for all other articles here. The encyclopedia style is what needs to be maintained within the encyclopedia, right? Maybe you have us confused with Wikispecies? Why should an external style drive us? How does it help the readers? Vegaswikian (talk) 20:43, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

    I admit I didn't express the same ideas as your sentences, largely because, as a non-expert, I couldn't discern what those sentences meant, even with the specialist capitalization. Are there examples you can point to in actual bird articles which would be ambiguous without the capitalization, and can't be easily reworded? Pburka (talk) 00:08, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

15. Support editors who build content, and oppose hectoring. I would have liked to have seen some discussion regarding the issue, but any sensible points are lost—sorry MOS advocates, but repetitive walls-of-text to dominate opponents is not the way to build an encyclopedia in a collaborative project.
    Double-crested Cormorant#Taxonomy seems clear ("White-crested Cormorant") whereas alternatives seem artificial. Johnuniq (talk
    ) 02:29, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

    WP:AGF. Are you saying that positions should be challenged? Or that only those supporting option 2 contribute content? Also, the encyclopedia is for readers and not for editors. Vegaswikian (talk

    ) 03:00, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

# Support Option 2 The

Join WER

02:52, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Found it as well as opposing commentary. I'm a bird geek who will continue to follow the AOU convention of capitalization when I write for birding publications but I find the arguments for lower case in Wikipedia compelling. I can write well enough that it will be obvious from context whether black-bellied whistling duck refers to all tree ducks with black underbellies or to a specific species.

Join WER

04:50, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Comment on option 2

• Oppose capitalization. The excessive capitalization just looks weird, like bad 19th century poetry. If someone wants to use it in some specialist publication, that's one thing, but Wikipedia is for a general audience. —Neotarf (talk) 04:00, 18 April 2014 (UTC). [Moved *oppose* vote back from where David Levy moved it out of Option 2 and IP 144.85.187.212 moved it into Option 1. Tsk, tsk. —Neotarf (talk) 16:34, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Removed the number sign wikiformatting, since this should not be counted in the list of supports for option 2. (No tsking needed.) This should be re-positioned to the discussion below. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:02, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Aye, it seems to be a !vote for option 1, but Neotarf already has a !vote in that section. This one is actually clearer.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:26, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

• Support option 2. I agree that all proper bird names should include capitalization. Using the "Black Crowned Crane" example, it is clear with capitalization that we are referring to a Black Crowned Crane, and not a crane with a black crown. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chuck Slusarczyk Jr. (talk • contribs) 23:02, 22 April 2014 (UTC) — Chuck Slusarczyk Jr. (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I smell a

WP:SOCK. And not a well-disguised one.... Dohn joe (talk

) 23:33, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Hardly. I know Chuck in real life. https://www.flickr.com/photos/2154chuckstreet_pics/ Natureguy1980 (talk) 05:04, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

But Chuck has never before made a wikipedia edit; why is he entitled to an opinion about a guideline subtlety? Sounds more like a meat puppet than a sock puppet. Dicklyon (talk) 05:44, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Dicklyon is right, "While Wikipedia assumes good faith, especially for new users, recruiting new editors to influence decisions on Wikipedia is prohibited." (

Wikipedia:Meat puppet). Mama meta modal (talk

) 06:27, 23 April 2014 (UTC).

• Capitalizing the names of actual species is important to avoid confusion. This should be considered for all species, not just birds. For example, "cardinal" is not a species, and should not be capitalized. "Northern Cardinal" is a species, and should be capitalized. If I say, "a northern cardinal," I may be referring to a bird that lives in Canada. If I say, "Northern Cardinal," I'm referring to a particular species, and referencing all of the collective knowledge that name encapsulates. Similarly, "a yellow warbler" is saying something entirely different than saying, "a Yellow Warbler." A "Blue Tit" is very different from a "blue tit." Ornithologists and birders capitalize the English names of species to be clear in what is being said. Inasmuch as Wikipedia has an interest in maintaining clarity of expression, it should use this convention, too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Urracahermosa (talk • contribs) 23:17, 22 April 2014 (UTC) — Urracahermosa (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I smell a

WP:SOCK. And not a well-disguised one.... Dohn joe (talk

) 23:33, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

People are only allowed to comment if they're longtime Wikipedia content-generators? What's your proof this is a sock? Did you check the IP address? This topic is getting a lot of discussion in birding and ornithology fora. These are undoubtedly people coming here to voice their valid opinions. It's pretty sad that you have to put them down.Natureguy1980 (talk) 05:04, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Please stop inviting your friends to make accounts just to vote with you. Dicklyon (talk) 05:44, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

We do not need a proof that it is a sick puppet. Indeed, "While Wikipedia assumes good faith, especially for new users, recruiting new editors to influence decisions on Wikipedia is prohibited." (

Wikipedia:Meat puppet). Mama meta modal (talk

) 06:27, 23 April 2014 (UTC).

• Support option 2. Regardless of the debate about what constitutes a proper name or naming other animal species, in terms of clarity, retaining capitalization is the clear choice. There can be many "yellow warblers" or "meadow pipits." Distinguishing the "common grackle" from a "common grackle" is confusing: are you referring to the "Common Grackle," Quiscalus quiscula, or a "common grackle" for the region, which may be Boat-tailed or Great-tailed? Capitalizing bird names, therefore, eliminates confusion and makes it clear to what you are referring: a specific bird or a species? Furthermore, capitalization emphasizes that you are speaking about the specific species. As Wikipedia is a "general encyclopaedia," it would be most clear to both biologists and the general public that the phrase "Cliff Swallows" is referring to the species in general, not swallows that nest specifically on cliffs. 68.40.49.28 (talk) 22:53, 22 April 2014 (UTC)HOLA

I smell a

WP:SOCK. And not a well-disguised one.... Dohn joe (talk

) 23:33, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, it looks like a

Wikipedia:Meat puppet). Mama meta modal (talk

) 06:23, 23 April 2014 (UTC).

This—disappointing. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 07:58, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

My apologies, Mama meta modal. I honestly did not realize the good faith provision does not apply to new users when it comes to discussions like this one. Regardless whether their votes "count", I think they're worth listening to. Many of them are undoubtedly Wikipedia users. Natureguy1980 (talk) 16:13, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Assuming good faith does apply to new users. It's the recruitment of new users to influence decisions that's bad faith. New users are worth listening to in general, but new users specifically recruited to stuff a ballot box often don't say anything new; they're just parroting the recruiter. -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:35, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

You mean like how the last 15 people voting for option 1 just said, "what those guys said"? Natureguy1980 (talk) 19:23, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't mean like that, no, since they weren't recruited in a show of bad faith. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:23, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Respectfully, you should not accuse someone of bad faith when he was not aware of a rule. I've apologized once, and I'll do it again. I'm sorry I broke a rule of which I'm unaware, even though I've been editing articles on Wikipedia for nigh on 10 years. That was not my intention. I'm now aware of the rule, and it will not happen again. I'm sorry. That doesn't change the fact the most of the "yeah, I agree with Fred" posts are less substantive then the "meat puppet" posts that were a result of my actions. I really don't understand how those posts are ok. It seems like a double standard. Natureguy1980 (talk) 20:30, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Wow. Seriously? Canvassing again off-wiki for meatpuppets? [Someone from WP:BIRDS did this in 2012 and at least one previous debate on this as well, as I recall, to stack polls in precisely the same way. And still did not gain consensus outside their own project page to do what they're doing.] You know, if I made one post, not even a "rise up! rise up!" advocacy one, just a simple, neutral "isn't this interesting..." post on a single English-language writing e-mail list I can think of, or on another group I can think of, on Facebook, I could deluge this page with probably 100+ meatpuppets in favor of down-casing, within an hour. That's not how consensus is built here.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  21:08, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Bird article names: option 3

• Abandon this discussion. This is a re-run of previous non-conclusive discussions, which are disrupting the work of those who edit bird page. Capitalization of bird names is established on the Wiki. Snowman (talk) 17:22, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  There is nothing here that could disrupt bird-page editors' work. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:05, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  I've replied above regarding the re-run claim. [10] Very, very important point, obviously. Andrewa (talk) 19:28, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  Asking birds editors to follow the same style guide as the rest to the encyclopedia is not "disrupting the[ir] work" at all; their own decisions to insist on their way at all costs is doing that. Capitalization of bird names was "established" by

  MOS:LIFE, though a couple of editors keep trying to promote the idea at some of the NC guidelines (on the basis of arguments that mostly seem to be anti-MOS rather than pro-capitalization, and about making expert editors rather than average readers happy).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

   ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  14:54, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

The project you quote is, of course, the one that uses lower case, but not English common names, so its default style is Corylus avellana not "common hazel". Apparently not a problem. It amused me also that that some of the style fanatics (not you,  SMcCandlish) actually took my "american kestrel" seriously Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:41, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

@Snowmanradio: as much as I disagree with the MOS on this particular issue, I am a fan of conformity and strongly support the idea of a coherent- and professional-looking wikipedia, so I'd rather it either be incorporated as official or sunk rather than float along as a guideline-not-a-guideline. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:40, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Taking your seriously presented statement as serious does not make the reader a "style fanatic"; it's simply indicative of poor writing ability. It amuses me also to see fanatics call others fanatics. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:55, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Option 3a Use scientific names

• Change style guidance to use scientific names - binomials for article title and in running text. This is assuming that the aims are:
  • A) to make things consistent
  • B) because (untested hypothesis) uppercase mixed with lower case makes Wikipedia look unprofessional, illiterate etc. (also unverified claims)

Most (almost all the inconspicuous insects for instance) organisms have no English names, this would ensure consistency across taxa. Since we are considering a major surgery after 10 years of being in stasis, we might as use the more future proof option.

Lower case might actually hinder readability of articles - (untested hypothesis, ideally meant for actual readers to respond to in a large scale sample test) - with test articles on the

Van Dam's Vanga

(which I believe should become"van Dam's vanga" ).

If the idea of codifying this consistency is the aim the same questions need to be asked of -

Brown Argus

(numerous others would come up if this question is broadened, which is how this style question should ideally be handled) - lower casing that should need something like "the painted lady butterfly" so it cannot be solved merely by lower-casing.

Alterations needed in the style/"rules" such as "always use scientific names to avoid confusing text" (which ultimately may or may not make Wikipedia better for the reader. That is a question we are not asking anyway!). Shyamal (talk) 06:30, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

"Lower case might actually hinder readability of articles". Yes, that is easy to see. It can also be shown that capitalisation can also produce text that could be difficult to read. I have suggested that where readability is a concern, that italics be used to help readability. I can see italics being helpful, and not harmful, for readability for many species, bird or other, whether capitalised or not.

Consistency is good, but not paramount.

Disagree that a wrong decision here will make Wikipedia look unprofessional, illiterate etc, to a reasonable reader.

What is best for the reader, especially the widest selection of readers, should be the main question. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:00, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

This idea comes up every once in awhile, and we actually do it for a lot of plants;

Haliaeetus leucocephalus. It's like FairTax—you might think it's a good idea, and it might be fun to discuss it, but it isn't going to happen anytime soon. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs

) 15:49, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

The aims of Wikipedia include to be reflect the standard practice in general sources as well as to be clear and consistent. These does not support your idea of using Latin names.

In any case, by convention, genus name and not species name of all living species are capitalised (e.g. Passer domesticus, Latimeria chalumnae, Salmonella enterica); as virtually everybody respects these convention, Wikipedia also do so.

For these reasons, we should respect the habit of using common names. Their capitalisation is only recommended by the internal rules of one group of ornithologists and is not widely used by general sources. For these reasons, as Wikipedia is not a database for specialised ornithologists but a general encyclopaedia, there is no reason to capitalise bird common names.

Another important argument against capitalisation of common names is that there is no reason not treat them as all other animal species. Treating all animals in the same was allow to increase quality, consistency and clarity.

Mama meta modal (talk) 07:07, 19 April 2014 (UTC).

That's a lot of points to cover. People vent at me for long paragraphs, so here's a bullet list:

• None of this addresses the common name capitalization issue at all, since all this scientific name titles thing addresses is article title, and MOS people, like most other readers, are mostly objecting to the capitalization in running text, with titles as an afterthought. (Personally, I hate WP's use of sentence case for titles and headings anyway. It's annoying bureaucrat-ese that doesn't have anything to do with encyclopedic style. The point being, some of us actually like title capitalization.)
• Most botanical articles were moved to scientific names. Interesting experiment. Lots of people hate it, but it's mostly stable, indicating that it's not that big a deal for uncommon species.
• What mostly happens is that things that do have obvious common names that satisfy
  WP:COMMONNAME
  is a pretty clear policy. Binomial-as-title was a wikiproject idea that people kind of went along with, and today just work around and slowly undo when they actually care. The botany project doesn't browbeat and canvass about it, and consequently, tempers don't flare much. Virtually no one wants to emulate their idea when it comes to animal species. That said, binomials would actually be preferable to using IOC names in cases where the latter were just made up out of thin air at an IOC meeting to fill their list, and which are not represented in any other sci. literature or any mainstream sources that establish common use in the real world. That's quite a lot of names, BTW.
• Lower case and title case on species common names both affect readability, just in different ways. Readability is not the only concern, probably not even the main one. "WTF is this weird capitalization? I'm going to stop reading and go try editing Wikipedia for the first time, just to fix this typo, since this looks like a ten-year-old wrote it" is a bigger one. (Funny enough, it's how I made my first, anon-IP edit, though it wasn't about birds, but about capitalization of a job title). The revert of such an editor's honest attempt at writing standard English, and the editwar leading into another three-month-long debate, that all ensues from that initial "WTF" reaction is an even bigger concern. The birder reaction of "oh, this is one of those sites, like all newspapers, and mainstream magazines, and non-ornithology websites, and encyclopedias, and dictionaries, and [...] that don't capitalize like my field guides do, oh well" is not an important one; no birder on the planet is unfamiliar with lower-cased bird names. But surely 99%+ of the literate anglophone human race are unfamiliar with bird (or other) common names being capitalized.
• MOS:LIFE
  's admonition to always create redirects from the other capitalization. Another reason to just one one standard, not two different ones.]
• It's funny that you mention names like
  ʻokina
  since 2006. WP:BIRDS people love to fight with MOS people, but not so much with other wikiprojects.
• Re: may or may not make Wikipedia better for the reader. That is a question we are not asking anyway! I don't even know how to respond to that other that to guess you must be joking. Honestly, it's the entire point of MOS, meanwhile the failure of specialists of all sorts to keep that goal in mind, to remember to put lay readers not their own colleagues first when writing here, is why the
  WP:SSF
  essay had to be written.
• I concur strongly with M.m.m.: there are just some narrow specialty venues that want the capitalization, and it does not match general sources; there's no reason to treat birds differently from other animals, either.
• WP is a large scale sample test. Almost all organism articles have been lower-cased at this point other that birds, a few plants and two kinds of insects, and some misc. stragglers (I think I saw some capitalized snake articles or something). I've been looking, and so far there there seem be no negative consequences of any kind at all. The end. Let's put this to bed and move on.

 — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:29, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Bird article names: discussion

• Thanks for your vote, BDD. But why do you think that WP:NCCAPS give the best answer? That's what I'm asking here. Step back from all previous claims of consensus (however local or not-so-local) and let's ask, what's the best way of writing and (particularly) naming these articles, and why? Andrewa (talk) 08:17, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  AndrewA we need an evidence section below so folks can put all external sources below - and quickly. I am a bit tight for time for several hours. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  OK... although I would have preferred someone else to do it, and don't really see the rush. Andrewa (talk) 08:50, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  NCCAPS is so well established that I think the burden of proof should be on those who want to deviate from it. But in a nutshell, I would say that whether or not a letter is capitalized can convey specific information, so there should be a default, a baseline of either all small or all large caps. Small caps work well because they're more common in the English language in general. But my position is merely that we should follow our own internal standards. Were the positions reversed, and bird articles used sentence-case capitalization, my position would be the same: stick with our naming conventions. --BDD (talk) 16:22, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  Agree about the burden of proof, but off-topic. Please reread the proposal. Andrewa (talk) 19:35, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

• WP:MOS: "Plain English works best; avoid ambiguity, jargon, ..." -- JHunterJ (talk
  ) 18:14, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  True. But the MOS represents a local consensus (and this clause arguably also concerns content rather than style, but we don't need to go there). The purpose of this section is to step back, and consider only the question: What makes for the best articles? Andrewa (talk) 19:01, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  As far as capitalization of bird species names, isn't the answer the same whether you follow the MOS, or if you follow usage in WP:Reliable sources? Dohn joe (talk) 19:20, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  That's exactly what many have assumed or implied. But this is taking a step back from that, and even from the usage criterion, the problem with which is: Which reliable sources do you consider, and which do you disqualify? Andrewa (talk) 19:35, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  That's easy - we consider all reliable sources. See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources. It even gives a handy list of types of reliable sources: academic and peer-reviewed publications; university-level textbooks; books published by respected publishing houses; magazines; journals; and mainstream newspapers. Why would you want to disqualify any reliable source? Dohn joe (talk) 20:22, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  Agree totally that we consider all reliable sources. My point exactly. But read the whole paragraph you quote... the handy list of types of reliable sources you quote is introduced by Editors may also use material from reliable non-academic sources, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include: (my emphasis). Surely that includes sources such as guidebooks? But others wish to disqualify them (I assume you've seen examples of this without my needing to quote diffs). Andrewa (talk) 00:34, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

  I certainly would not wish to disqualify guidebooks, or any other reliable source. They're all part of the mix. But looking at all of the reliable sources, it seems clear that the MOS is in fact in line with a clear majority of reliable sources in using lowercase, which was my point. I don't think the MOS is infallible or universally mandatory by any stretch, but especially when its guidance matches the format found most often in the real world, I don't see why we shouldn't go along. Dohn joe (talk) 17:49, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

  Nobody is disqualifying guidebooks as reliable sources. However, we've got a situation where different reliable sources differ in the style in which they present the same information. Since there's a conflict between the reliable sources (on style only), and because many of us believe that Wikipedia should strive for consistency, we need to choose which style to use. As Wikipedia is intended for a general audience, it only makes sense for us to lean towards the style which is favoured by most non-specialist reliable sources. Pburka (talk) 02:23, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

  What makes for the best articles? Sentence casing. Using jargon or Significant Capitals for Things That Don't Need to Be Capitalized hinders readers who are not specialists or steeped in the IOC rules. -- JHunterJ (talk)

  A belief that MOS "represents a local consensus" is a failure to understand

  WP:MFD is, and you'll rapidly find that virtually no one agrees with you.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

   ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  08:13, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Mama meta modal (talk) 21:41, 9 April 2014 (UTC).

Bird article names: evidence supporting option 1

• Organizations that consistently downcase bird names
  • Royal Society of the Protection of Birds
  • National Geographic
  • Ornithological Society of New Zealand
  • Journal of Avian Biology
• "crowned crane" in the Encyclopedia Britannica. --
  talk
  ) 08:57, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

• EB only covers birds very generically - usually only by broad common terms (e.g. magpie, and is often outdated. See bell-magpie (word not used for 70 years+) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

• Questionably relevant; this isn't about whether their taxonomy is correct, it's about what they do with style; you still keep confusing the two. Also, "thee" and "thine" aren't current usage, but you'll find them in the same dictionary. "Contains obsolete entries" is a feature not a bug in dictionaries.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:14, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

• The Oxford English Dictionary do not capitalise bird species name. Mama meta modal (talk) 09:36, 9 April 2014 (UTC).

• Many quotes of the use of bird names are capitalized in the OED showing a long history capitalized bird names. Snowman (talk) 16:08, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

• The English language until the late early 1800s, and even in some places the late 1800s, had a tendency in common with the rule in German to capitalize nouns and noun phrases. It isn't evidentiary of what you think it is, sorry.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:14, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

• Nor does Merriam-Webster. See its entry for golden eagle, for example --Stfg (talk) 10:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

CMOS recommends following Merrian Webster, as it happens. --

talk

) 15:25, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

• Merrian Webster only covers birds very generically too. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

• Not relevant; this is not about whether the source in question covers every species, it's about what they do with style.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:14, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

• The RSPB don't seem to favour capitalisation, either. --
  talk
  ) 11:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• "black crowned crane" in National Geographic -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:04, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• "black crowned crane" in the Chicago Tribune -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:04, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• ngram comparing "the Snowy Owl" to "the snowy owl" Dohn joe (talk) 16:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• ngram comparing "the Snowy Egret" to "the snowy egret" Dohn joe (talk) 16:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• ngram comparing "the Great Blue Heron" to "the great blue heron" Dohn joe (talk) 16:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• ngram comparing "the Emperor Penguin" to "the emperor penguin" Dohn joe (talk) 16:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• ngram comparing "the Barn Swallow" to "the barn swallow" Dohn joe (talk) 16:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• "American kestrel" at Reno Gazette-Journal -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• "American kestrel" at Houston Chronicle -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• "American kestrel" (and many others) in The Bird Almanac: A Guide to Essential Facts and Figures of the World's Birds -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• "American kestrel" in The American Kestrel: Falcon of Many Names
• "American kestrel" as a Library of Congress subject heading -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• The Chicago Manual of Style (16th [online] ed.). U. of Chicago Pr. 2010.; full access requires paid account or hardcopy – explicitly lower-cases bird species common names and all others:
  • "Sec. 8: Names and Terms, Subsec. 8.127 Vernacular Names of Plants and Animals—additional resources" says "In general, Chicago recommends capitalizing only proper nouns and adjectives, as in the following examples, which conform to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary: Dutchman's-breeches, jack-in-the-pulpit, mayapple, Cooper's hawk, rhesus monkey, Rocky Mountain sheep". Note "Cooper's hawk".
  • It says in the same section: "For the correct capitalization and spelling of common names of plants and animals, consult a dictionary or the authoritative guides to nomenclature, the ICBN and the ICZN", meaning the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature, recently renamed the International Code of Nomenclature for algae, fungi, and plants, and International Code of Zoological Nomenclature. Note they don't open-endedly say "authoritative guides", but specify the two guides they consider authoritative.
  • Here are some big interpretation hints: Dictionaries do not capitalize common names of species, including birds. The ICZN (which is an actual nomenclature authority, unlike the IOC) does not capitalize common names of species, including birds. The ICN/ICBN does not capitalize the common names of species, at all, despite some botanical groups liking to capitalize; see next source entry below.
  • At neither section does CMoS drill down to the narrow level of the IOC, much less suggest following different conventions for different orders of animals, nor academic/scientific conventions at all if they conflict with general usage.
  • At "8.118 Scientific style—additional resources", CMoS defers to [only] the ICZN and ICBN, here, too. At "8.119 Genus and specific epithet", it gives several examples of common names of species, and all are lower-case.
  • See also "7.48 Capitals for emphasis", which says: "Initial capitals, once used to lend importance to certain words, are now used only ironically (but see 8.93 [Platonic ideals])."
  • Common names of species also do not qualify as proper names/nouns under the terms at "5.6 Proper nouns", which can only be "the specific name of a person, place, or thing" [a species is not a thing, but a categorical classification of things; one might as well capitalize "Chevrolet Four-door Automobile"].
  • CMoS does not give a single example of a common name of any species being capitalized, except where it contains a proper name.
  • The 15th ed. is identical on all of these points, other than the section numbering, including "Cooper's hawk" as exemplary.
  • CMoS is generally considered the leading American style guide for non-journalistic writing.
  • Note that this is even after CMoS has had plenty of time (the 15th ed. dates to 2003) to pick up on this debate at WP and offline and change their mind, but they still side firmly with lower case.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:14, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
• The International Code of Nomenclature for algae, fungi, and plants. Intl. Botanical Congress, Intl. Assn. for Plant Taxonomy. 2011. "Preface". (formerly Intl. Code of Botanical Nom.): "[T]ypography is a matter of editorial style and tradition not of nomenclature." Doesn't cover animals, of course, but this is a general statement about style in nomenclature, not a statement about plants in particular.
• Anselm Atkins in The Auk in 1983[11]:

  ...what is the authority against [capitalization]? As Anselm Atkins wrote in The Auk in 1983: "Any American dictionary. Look up "blue jay."

  Atkins continues:

  Most field guides and some other books do use capitals. On the other hand, birds are confined to lower case in the writings of Darwin, Thoreau, Muir, Aldo Leopold, Stephen Gould, and many others. Highly literate magazines such as Audubon, Smithsonian, National Geographic and National Wildlife do not capitalize birds' names. Neither do Science or Scientific American. A great number of writers and editors thus follow the dictionary rather than the CBE [Council of Biology Editors, which follows the IOC rule for bird names, or at least did at the time Atkins was writing]. ...

  Language changes; grammatical usages come and go. There are no eternal verities here; convention and consent are all. Rules of grammar are not handed down from on high--they are merely a codification of actual usage. The dictionary says "what is," not "what should be." Nevertheless, it is proper to follow "what is" as determined by the compilers of current dictionaries. Professional ornithologists and lepidopterists, whose writings surely constitute only a fraction of today's literature, cannot possibly win the day (but what a gallant showing of nets and binoculars against all those typewriters, word processors, and printing presses!). Lacking an Archimedes' fulcrum, we shall never change convention but only succeed in violating it. Meanwhile, our idiosyncrasy causes confusion among those who want to write birds' names correctly. It would be most helpful if we would generously concede and conform. As Humpty-Dumpty said (it's impossible to make it through a reflective essay without quoting Lewis Carroll), it is a question of who is to be master. In this instance, let us surrender to the dictionary. Until we do, we ornithologists, with our Important Capitals, continue to look Curiously Provincial.^[1]

• --JHunterJ (talk) 12:55, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Bird article names: evidence supporting option 2

• The World Bird List, established by the International Ornithologists’ Union, has gone about assigning proper and standard names to all bird species. Their rules on capitalization are here (i.e. capitalise). Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

A specialised source which acknowledges that they are going against convention and states that capitalisation is "preferable for the name of a bird species in an ornithological context". An article on Wikipedia is not "in an ornithological context". It also seems like they have an axe to grind with standard convention. --

talk

) 12:36, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes. See the relevant capitalization page, which says outright, "this is contrary to the general rules of spelling for mammals, birds, insects, fish, and other life forms." --BDD (talk) 16:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

That's hilarious. That's enough to just put this silly matter to bed, forever, right now.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  15:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

• ngram comparing "the Rainbow Lorikeet" to "the rainbow lorikeet" - slight edge to caps Dohn joe (talk) 16:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• RSPB Handbook of British Birds, by Holden and Cleeves. Snowman (talk) 18:06, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• A Field Guide to the Birds of Australia, by Graham Pizzey. Snowman (talk) 18:06, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• A Field Guide to the Birds of Eastern Northern America, by David Sibley. Snowman (talk) 18:06, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• A Field Guide to the Birds of North America, by Robbins et al. Snowman (talk) 18:08, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• The Book of Indian Birds, by Ali. Snowman (talk) 18:08, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  All these field guides are invalid examples of this capitalization being a birds standard in particular; virtually all field guides on all topics capitalize the names of the things to which the book is a guide. It is nothing but use of capitalization for emphasis to aid visual scanning. It's coincidence that it happens to agree with IOC's preference (usually - there are very particular and peculiar devils in the details of IOC's capitalization rules, which I helped explain at

  WP:BIRDS#Naming), and the guide practice preceded the existence of IOC by generations.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

   ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  15:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

• IUCN. Snowman (talk) 18:12, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

The IUCN Redlist consistently uses title case in the Common Name/s section, but generally uses lower case in running text see e.g. G/giant P/panda. It does conform sometimes to specialist practice; i.e. birds are often capitalized in running text, but IUCN doesn't always capitalize even bird names (California Condors are "condors" in running text). IUCN certainly does not support always using capitals. Field guides usually use title case for emphasis in headings (as has been mentioned previously in these discussions). Do the field guides you mentioned capitalize in running text.? Plantdrew (talk) 19:43, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Not just in headings; field guides on all topics usually capitalize and/or otherwise emphasize the name of anything that has an entry, e.g. "Note that Basalt is visually distinct from Schist and Quartz" or whatever, including in running prose. It is field guide style, not a naming convention.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  15:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

IUCN uses upper case for the West African Manatee here in the text. Snowman (talk) 22:43, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Grasping. That's a blog article not likely subject to much if any editorial control; it's not something formal produced by IUCN to indicate a convention.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  15:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh, wait a minute, that's a mammal! This does not support the birds case at all.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:46, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

The point is the IUCN uses upper case consistently for mammal and bird name. Snowman (talk) 15:42, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Which again does not support the birds case at al. WP:BIRDS claims that bird names are special and different, not that all species common names should be capitalized. The IUCN article contradicts this by treating them as subject to the same convention in their style guide, which happens to capitalize. IUCN, therefore, supports the pro-MOS, pro-consistency position here. D'oh! — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  08:44, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

IUCN also also capitalizes all species where it capitalizes any of them, not just birds. It does this for mammals, which brings it into direct conflict with, well, virtually everything ever written about mammals, including in academic literature; see Talk:Snow_leopard#Secondary_and_Tertiary_Sources_on_Capitalization for a much longer list of references than we've built here so far. Oh, and elsewhere in IUCN materials, they use BLOCK CAPS for species common names. So much for your "they capitalized like I do" theory. All of this demonstrate that IUCN not a reliable source on style in taxonomy at all. Which makes sense, since they're not a taxonomic group or a style guide, but an species conservation organization.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:46, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• Wiki Commons. Snowman (talk) 18:13, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• Wikispecies. Snowman (talk) 18:13, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Wikis cannot be cited as reliable sources; you know that.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  15:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    • The point is that consistency is importance across the various English language Wiki projects. Snowman (talk) 15:42, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

      Why? An encyclopedia is not a species list. Wikicommons is not an encyclopedia. Wiktionary distinguishes between wikt:Bob and wikt:bob, but Wikipedia cannot, so that level of consistency isn't possible. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:05, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

      Right. Cross-article consistency is way more important inside Wikipedia than between Wikipedia and some other site.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  08:44, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• Google Books Ngram results looking at a whole family (the terns) shows upper case more common for the majority of species:

Tigershrike (talk) 11:24, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• • • Tigershrike, you have a lot to learn about the books n-grams. These comparison are all wildly biased toward title case because the n-grams include a lot of titles and headings (many birds species names appear seldom other than in tables and headings). You can remove much of the bias by including lowercase "a" or "the" in front of the bird name, or "is" after it, to narrow the search to certain sentence contexts. Some birds, especially rare ones mentioned only in birder books, may still survive as mostly capitalized, but I'd be surprised if many of these terns do. Like the black noddy; of course, many more variations are too rare to be in the database. Dicklyon (talk) 02:21, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
      • Yeah, that's a huge pile of skewed data. I demand a re-count!  :-)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  08:00, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• Many (not all) ornithology journals. An incomplete list:
  • someone should add some here

• Some more sources using capitals:
  • Handbook of the Birds of the World – does capitalize, but using a different scheme from IOC's, which the HBW editors explicitly reject as confusing
  • The Birds of the Western Palearctic
  • 'The Clements Checklist of Birds of the World
  • Regional lists:
    AOU Checklist of North American Birds, South American Classification Committee, British Ornithologists' Union, Association of European Records and Rarities Committees, African Bird Club, Ornithological Society of the Middle East, Oriental Bird Club, Birdlife Australia
  • Organisations: BirdLife International, American Birding Association, British Trust for Ornithology, BirdWatch Ireland
  • Websites: All About Birds, BirdWeb, Xeno-canto, The Internet Bird Collection – only reliable sources if not self-published and not reader-edited
  • Magazines: Bird Watching, Birdwatch, British Birds, Birding
  • Site guides: RSPB Where to Discover Nature, Helm's "Where to Watch Birds" series (e.g. Where to Watch Birds in Britain), ABA Birdfinding Guides (e.g. A Birder’s Guide to Washington), Falcon Guides (e.g. Birding Northern California)
  • Garden birds: Our Garden Birds, Stokes Bird Gardening Book, RSPB Pocket Birdfeeder Guide, Audubon Birdhouse Book
  • Reference books: Illustrated Encyclopedia of Birds, Birds & People, Extinct Birds, Bird Atlas 2007-2011, Birds in England, The Bird Watching Answer Book, National Geographic Birdwatcher’s Bible, Sibley's Birding Basics, Wild Costa Rica, Australian Bird Names
  • Other books: Skomer: Portrait of a Welsh island, Silent Fields: the long decline of a nation's wildlife, Birdsong, Kingbird Highway, Falconry, Birds: Through Irish Eyes, A Bird in the Bush: A Social History of Birding, The Urban Birder, Birding with Bill Oddie Tigershrike (talk) 15:59, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Notice that they're pretty much all bird specialty books, and largely field guides? Haven't we been over this already about 50 times?  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  02:15, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

• Parkes, Kenneth C. (1978), "A Guide to Forming and Capitalizing Compound Names of Birds in English" (PDF), Auk, 95: 324–326 {{
  Join WER
  04:03, 27 April 2014 (UTC)