Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Self-references to avoid

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Discussion of allowing self-reference in list article criteria

I reverted the addition of an exception to

here. Feel free to join the discussion! — hike395 (talk) 13:08, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

There is a new proposal on the table for resolving a contradiction between

here. Thanks! — hike395 (talk) 11:56, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Referencing in-article images

At this revision of Judeo-Malay, a list of the numbers from 1 to 6 are given along with their romanized names in Judeo-Malay (along with a claim that they're also given in Malay, which they weren't, but I fixed that in a later revision). The list is introduced with "Below are the numbers of Judeo-Malay or Malay written in Hebrew characters by Rahamim Jacob Cohen." But the numbers "below" aren't written in Hebrew characters, their names are romanized. However, in the infobox is an image of the notebook page that is written in Hebrew characters and that is the source of the names that are romanized in the list.

My current revision is this. I've created a table and added the Standard Malay names of the numbers for comparison. The introduction is "Below are the numbers 1–6 in Judeo-Malay, transcribed from Cohen's notes, and in Standard Malay:". I'd like to specify that the numbers are romanized from the notebook page but I don't know how to reference it in a way that's in the spirit of avoiding self-references. I could write "romanized from the forms in Hebrew characters in the image in the infobox", but should the article give the an impression of being aware that is has an infobox?

I could remove the image from the infobox and put it in that section of the text. But then how would I refer to it? I can't write "the image to the right" because on a small mobile device it's going to be below, and I can't say "the image below" because on a desktop monitor it's probably going to be to the right. Largoplazo (talk) 22:10, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Postscript: I just found

MOS:SEEIMAGE. It says "Don't refer to image orientation such as left, right, above, or below. Image placement varies with platform and screen size, especially mobile platforms, and is meaningless to screen readers. Instead, use captions to identify images." So it seems to be telling me I can't refer to it at all. The third sentence is weird, because, given the previous two sentences, I thought it was going to go on to advise as to handle a situation where one needs to refer to the contents of an image, but the sentence instead offers the platitude that's applicable in any circumstances, that images should have captions. Well, maybe it does help: I've now amplified the information given in the caption so that the reader has a chance of putting two and two together, in this revision. Largoplazo (talk) 22:14, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Note that ..., It is important to ..., Surprisingly ..., Of course ...

I noticed that the subsection was added several years ago but I disagree with "Neutral cross-references (See also

Cymric (cat). are permissible". In fact, I don't think they are ever permissible and are always better reworded. Are there any supporters? Iterresise (talk) 08:03, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

I don't agree with you at all. We routinely use cross-references, especially between closely related articles that are the results of

WP:EDITING, other than things subject to a specific rule prohibiting them. I'm not sure what the mania is for trying to micromanage every single thing people do here, but it's poisononous. It's taken years to undo a lot of useless prescriptivistic nonsense, that had nothing to do with creating a better encyclopedia, injected into many MoS pages by someone now topic-banned from them, and the last thing we need is another to take their place. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:45, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

What I disagree with is "often". Iterresise (talk) 12:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you haven't made any case for what's wrong with it. (And this does not seem to actually relate to your original opening statement, which was a claim that neutral cross-references are not "permissible" at all.) Anyway, it's routine for us to make edits like the one you provided a diff to, to moderate overly emphatic or prescriptive statements in MoS that do not need to be so absolute. (Many of them were injected several years ago by an editor who has since been topic-banned from MoS, and cleaning up after them has been a slow process.) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:EEng: did you want to opine? I'm seeing some cases where a cross reference would make sense such as refering to "figure 1", "figure 2", etc. Iterresise (talk) 08:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'll opine. My opinion is you better get over to

WP:ANI#Iterresise's_MEATBOT_behavior_removing_template_from_articles,changing_DAB_page_layouts,_etc. and commit to undoing all these bullshit changes you've been making, or you're going to get blocked. E Eng 11:11, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Memes related to Wikipedia

WP:SELFREF for the first time today in this edit on the article Doge (meme): [1]

. As you can see, the edit removed this meme which mentioned the existence of Wikipedia, and replaced it with one that didn't.

I'm mostly just curious if the original image did fall under SELFREF and needed to be removed. A meme someone made related to Wikipedia still illustrates the point even if isn't being read on Wikipedia, and it did not encourage "readers to take an action on Wikipedia, such as editing the article". Was the original image problematic per this policy, and did it need to be removed? Pinging Belbury since they made they change, but obviously they agree with it or they wouldn't have made it, so I'm looking for other opinions. Damien Linnane (talk) 02:45, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was being guided by the policy's observations that Mentioning the Wikipedia community, or website features, can confuse readers of derived works and that specialized Wikipedia jargon should be avoided.

The average Wikipedia reader, unfamiliar with policy terminology, probably wouldn't see why the dog would be thinking "such neutral". And a person unfamiliar with the concept of Wikipedia, encountering this image in a derived work, would only have a general, speculative sense that words like "edit" and "article" were probably references to whatever Wikipedia was.

A simpler non-Wikipedia concept (I went with "snow") has neither of those issues, and also works in derived contexts that lack a caption. Belbury (talk) 10:23, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The image did not violate this guideline. This guideline is about self-references and specifies which types of self-references should be avoided and which kinds are acceptable. Such images are not listed as "should be avoided". Nothing about this image would confuse readers of a

WP:REUSE of our article somewhere else, since readers of it would already be aware of Wikipedia's existence, and even if the rare case someone wasn't, the image still illustrates what a Doge meme is. (And it doesn't have WP-specific jargon in it like "RfA" or "WP:BLP1E" in it, anyway). Lolcat has had a similar meme-pic in it pretty much the entire time the article has existed, and you'd meet a lot of resistance removing it. That said, the image that does have a WP joke in it is not neccessarily better than the replacement; which image to use is up to editorial consensus at the article talk page (where I would be in favor of the snow one, as funnier, more typical, and more understandable by more people). But "per MOS:SELFREF" isn't a valid argument in such a discussion. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:21, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

@SMcCandlish: Thanks, that's what I thought. I wasn't fussed about the removal itself because the replacement is indeed probably a better example, but the argument itself for it's removal struck me as wrong. Lolcat has several images, and in that same token I was going to move the Doge Wiki image further down the article, but I wanted to check first if that was a MOS:SELFREF issue. Damien Linnane (talk) 23:44, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]