Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds/Poultry task force

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Categorisation

I was wondering what peoples opinions on the state of categorisation of poultry articles is presently. It strikes me as a confused mess. It's probably going to take quite a few merge and move discussions to clean it up, but as you can see by the categories box on this projects main page, the ones that appear at the top level are a bit confused. Anyone got any thoughts before I dig in and begin proposing changes? JTdale Talk 14:36, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking a good way to set up the top level categories might be;

Poultry
Chickens
Chicken breeds
Ducks
Duck breeds
Turkeys
Turkey breeds
Gamebirds
Poultry organisations
Poultry standards
Poultry stubs
WikiProject Poultry
Poultry diseases
Poultry farming
Poultry farming by country
Poultry in food (rename from Poultry Dishes)
Eggs in food (rename from Eggs (food)
Chicken dishes
Turkey dishes
Duck dishes
Fast-food poultry restaurants
Brand name poultry meat (renamed from Brand name poultry*)
  • Due to brand name hybrids causing confusion

Hallo JTdale, I do the same work at de-wp and did not find the best conclusion, yet ;) Please be carefull with my "names". I am not a native english person...

There may be 4to5 groups of "Poultry" or "captive birds" (?):

  1. domestic poultry (The "real" domesticated one, with all the show and (former) utility breeds) or only poltry with standards for fancying
  2. fancy poultry / fancy fowl
    1. (Large) Chicken breeds
    2. Bantams
      1. (True bantams)
    3. Duck breeds (both ducks)
    4. Goose breeds (both geese)
    5. Turkey breeds
    6. (Domestic) Guinefowl
    7. (domesticated lines of the Japanese quail: somewhere with standard?)
  3. commercial poultry (Hybrids for egg and meat production)
  4. the Ornamental poultry (non domestic birds, but captive birds, for show or reproductive programms for reintroduction to the wild)
  5. the Gamebirds for sports and meat (?, is it "Poultry"?)
  1. Poultry keeping (inkl. poultry feeding, poultry housing, ...)
    1. Fancying
      1. Poultry standards and organisations (like EE, APA, ...) (breeding for show)
      2. Shows
    2. Poultry farming (not by country!) (utility, to earn money)
      1. breeding concerns and companies, like Lohmann Tierzucht GmbH, Natexis (Babcock, Hubbard, ISA Group), Hendrix/Nutreco, Babolna Tetra Kft., MSD Sharp & Dohme/Aventis, Tyson Foods, Aviagen (Arbor Acres, Indian River, Ross).
      2. used Hybrids (products)
      3. keeping concerns and companies (producing eggs or meat)
    3. People (like, de:Bruno Dürigen, de:Robert Oettel, ...)
    4. Poultry diseases (important for both, farming and fancying)
    5. (poultry red mite, poultry-house moth, tropical poultry mite, ... )
  1. Poultry Products
    1. Eggs
      1. Egg dishes
    2. Meat (poultry liver, poultry meal,
      1. Chicken dishes
      2. Turkey dishes
      3. Duck dishes
      4. geese ...
      5. Guinefowl ...
      6. quail ...
      7. pheasant ...
      8. ...
      9. Fast-food poultry restaurants
        1. Brand name poultry meat (renamed from Brand name poultry*)
    3. Feathers
    4. Guano (?), Poultry litter

Last but not least, categories for maintenance, only

  • Poultry stubs
  • WikiProject Poultry

I do get confused with Category:Poultry organizations. What is it for? There are fast-food-restaurants and fany assiciations like the American Bantam Association in one Category? What do they have in common? I'd split them into food/products + breeders/commercial + fancyassociations/non-commercial. --PigeonIP (talk) 18:01, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed on poultry organisations. It is a confusing mess. I will go and fix that up now and make a Poultry companies category to stick all the rest in. The rest of these suggestions I'll have to go through more intently but good ideas from a quick gaze. JTdale Talk 15:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I did change domestic and fancy poultry. Maybe fancy and commercial are subcategories of "domestic", but I'd prefer to keep a flat tree.
Next to gamebirds: we also, have to keep the Ostrich (Meat, feathers, eggs(?)), Emu, Greater rhea and Darwin's rhea in mind. I know, there are Ostrich-farms; there may also be captive Emu and Rhea's for meat. But step by step... --PigeonIP (talk) 15:57, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've cleaned up category:Poultry organizations, created category:Poultry companies, category:Poultry research institutes and category:Poultry fancy organizations, moved category:Fast-food poultry restaurants into Poultry Companies, and moved a few articles from the top level category category:Poultry to relevant categories. JTdale Talk 16:09, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Animal breed disambiguation

 – Pointer to relevant thread elsewhere.

Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Toward a standard for disambiguating titles of articles on domestic animal breeds may be of interest to editors here.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  23:08, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll give it a read. By the way, in that big name-title move on chicken articles you managed to extremely stuff up the Australian Game redirects; Australian Pit Game is different breed. JTdale Talk 11:20, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Breeds and names

My English is not up to a "writing articles"-standard --> I won't write them. But I my mention here what comes to mind:

  • Appenzeller chicken --> The Appezeller is not a breed with two variations, the Appenzeller Spitzhauben (pl)/Appenzeller Spitzhaube (sing) and the Appenzeller Barthühner/Appenzeller Barthuhn are two seperate breeds. There is no breed "Appenzeller Huhn" ("Appenzeller chicken")
  • Schweizer chicken aargh, there is translation into English, so it may be Schweizerhuhn (linke in German).

If this Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Toward a standard for disambiguating titles of articles on domestic animal breeds does not get through, I'd like to undo all the x (chicken) --> x chicken and x (pigeon) --> x pigeon moves.

If you are not shure which breed-name to choose, or which translation: please have a look at www.entente-ee.com/deutsch/sparten/gefluegel/dateien/2013/Verzeichnis%20R%20F%2028042013.xls (all breeds, colours and variations that do have a standard within the European Association) I do use it for categorisation on Commons.

--PigeonIP (talk) 16:10, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In the english speaking world at least, we group them as one breed. The english world has done similar with Belgian Bantams, which I don't believe are considered one breed in their home country. Interesting to note that ... and I'm not sure on the best procedure there. Might be worth splitting the article and having Appenzeller chicken be dab? On Schweizer, I am not familiar with the breed but google brings up this. JTdale Talk 16:38, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Than please go with "Swiss Chicken" with redirect from Schweizerhuhn and don't mix languages. (for me, it is strange)
Appenzeller: At least in the UK, they should know both breeds [1] (as breeds, not varieties). Some day, they shall use the EE-standard, only. First conclusion may be two passages in that article. But to create interwikis with wikidata may become a problem, someday.
The example for merging breeds I know, is the Polish chicken, that are Padovana chicken (italian) and commons:Hollands kuifhoen in continental Europe.
Belgian Bantams: Barbue d'Everberg, Barbue du Grubbe, Barbue d'Uccle and Barbue d'Anvers??? OK, the turkey-problem is smooth and easy....
Maybe you do know: Schalaster (cropper/pouter) breed or variety? --PigeonIP (talk) 18:35, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is in the west, we do mix languages ALOT in naming things. Some things we translate like Malay Game, others we do not, like Ayam Cemani (literally "black chicken") and who knows why. It appears Schweizer is generally accepted as the right name. JTdale Talk 21:23, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Schweizer" is fine, as well as
Schweizer (chicken). I do have a problem with the de-en-mix. "Ayam Cemani", "Shamo"... all the same in German ;) (this are mostly the last/newly accepted breeds with no need for translation)--PigeonIP (talk) 21:45, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
I understand what you mean, but in English that happens. English as a language has never had much care for what its steals, mixes and messes up from other languages. JTdale Talk 05:11, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I know, but as long as there is no "official" english name of the breed, I'd choose the original language ("Schweizer" or "Schweizerhuhn") over a private(?, who is raising-chickens.org) translation. And raising-chickens.org also names it Swiss Chicken. I hate it, when WP is used to establish a name. (that problem may be more significant with companies and promotion, but applies here as well - or I am too much of a purist.)
Maybe my initial problem is
Is "chicken" (or "pigeon", "bantam", "fowl", ...) a part of the breeds (official) name?
Last year I tried to sort this out while moving pigeon breeds, where "pigeon" is part of the breeds name, like the
Jacobin (pigeon). That left pigeon-article-names to be checked, whether "pigeon" is part of the breeds name or "pigeon" is not part of it. I thougt it worked well. Nevertheless, all that work went to hell, as you can see in Category:Domesticated pigeon breeds
.
 Befor SMcCandlish showed up, there was a handable system:
  1. Ice Pigeon
    : "pigeon" is part of the name of the breed.
  2. Jacobin (pigeon)
    : "pigeon" is not part of the breeds name.
  3. Dragoon pigeon: check out, if "pigeon" is part of the breeds name or not.
That system worked for others as well. In
Old English Pheasant fowl "Fowl" is part of the breeds name and it should be Old English Pheasant Fowl but it is not, because there was a "typo"... .--PigeonIP (talk) 08:22, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
Some belated followup: "Befor SMcCandlish showed up, there was a handable system"? That doesn't even mean anything in English. I think it's meant to suggest that there was a working system, but what's described, 1-2-3, by PigeonIP above is actually a train wreck, especially the nonsensical third point that we would create a special class of article title that's a secret "we have no idea, and did do the research yet" signal. We just do not, ever, do anything like that. I have no idea what might happen at German Wikipedia, and I really don't care. Nor does anyone else at this site. "Jacobin (pigeon)" implies an individual pigeon named Jacobin. This disambiguation pattern is consistently, unvaryingly, used for individual animals (except where something even more specific must be employed, like "Foo (racehorse)" when "Foo (horse)" is itself ambiguous). The natural disambiguation system for breeds ("Jacobin pigeon", or "Jacobin Pigeon" if the standardized breed name includes "Pigeon") was already used for around 95% of disambiguated breed articles, across all species, and I moved the remaining stragglers to comply with it, per WP:CONSISTENCY. PigeonIP and two others fought like mad against this (one even explicitly declared they agreed with the idea but were opposing it because it was my idea and they didn't like me, I kid you not). Consensus went with consistency, of course, and we now have a stable and sensible system that's worked without any problems at all for four years or so. You're welcome.  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  08:25, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some of these are now being discussed at Talk:Teeswater sheep (yeah, don't ask!). I'll try to put the full list there in the next day or two; it's time-consumng work. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting multiple page moves on pigeon breeds

have a look at Talk:Strasser pigeon --PigeonIP (talk) 21:41, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Indian Runner duck

The Indian Runner duck has a taxobox. Is there a better infobox? {{Infobox poultry breed}} ? --PigeonIP (talk) 16:00, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think that'd be the correct one. JTdale Talk 16:13, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Need help with it ;) --PigeonIP (talk) 17:34, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like I can't do it. The infobox poultry is messed up and will only be usable with chickens right now ... going to try and work out what is wrong there. JTdale Talk 19:34, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've now done that, now possible after my fiddling about with the infobox. Now there's just the question of the content there to deal with. I thought at first it was copied from somewhere, but I've come to think it's someone's school essay. In any case, it is nothing like an encyclopaedic article. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:15, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Naming - Domesticated vs domestic

I was wondering what the best course of action on this is. Presently we have the articles

Domestic Duck. Wouldn't a standardisation on which is the proper version to use be a good idea? I'm not particular with MoS procedures, so if people would like to comment that'd be great. JTdale Talk 06:20, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

So, I am tempted to go with
but I am no biologist. --PigeonIP (talk) 12:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that standardization would be an improvement. To my mind, the term "domesticated" implies that the process has finished. Of course it has not, because we are continuing to artificially select our animals. For this reason alone, I would support "Domestic" (however, I would not argue for this strongly).__DrChrissy (talk) 11:08, 30 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree too, though for slightly different reasons: "domesticated" is applied to wild species, "domestic" to those that co-habit with man, e.g., "the domestic chicken is a domesticated Junglefowl". "Domestic" it what is used in
FAO. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:11, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

see

Talk:Cornish chicken#Merge with Cornish game hen

Maybe it is better to write two articles about the Indian Game and the (american) Cornish (and Jubilee?). The FAO knows Indian Game AND Cornish in the UK --> DAD-IS: Cornish Game (Large)/United Kingdom Cornish Game (miniature)/United Kingdom Indian Game and in that list are a lot of other Cornish-breeds...

or ignore that person and delete the "merge"-template in both articles. --PigeonIP (talk) 10:30, 30 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

FAO can be reaaally unreliable as most of the time governments tend to just write in names without actual understanding. Generally I've actually seen the 3rd world countries taking more care with it. But anyway I agree with the merger proposal. Cornish game hen as its own article is pretty useless. JTdale Talk 12:49, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
fancy chicken and (the usage of) cross breed(s) in one article? --PigeonIP (talk) 10:57, 2 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
When they are so closely related, with no real notability for Cornish Game hen to be given its own article, a merge would be appropriate in my opinion. JTdale Talk 06:55, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've replied there. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:52, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: new image of the conformation of chicken

Maybe you like to translate it, or use it in an article --PigeonIP (talk) 10:57, 2 August 2014 (UTC) another one --PigeonIP (talk) 11:00, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Burford Brown

Any thoughts about this? As far as I can see, it's someone's registered brand name for both some rather expensive brown eggs and some rather expensive brown hens. There's been some successful marketing, but I don't see why we need to be part of that. I can't see any evidence that it should be considered a chicken breed. Thoughts? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:19, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

they are hybrids, no breeds [2][3], maybe there are better sources out there. I would like it, if the article could get more critical and could correct some trade-mark-commercial-fairytales. Maybe that would make the marketing a little less successful? More so than deleting the article? --PigeonIP (talk) 19:53, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like a simple commercial hybrid of no real notability to me. I'd recommend nominating for deletion. JTdale Talk 07:17, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I thought of that. However, it's quite clearly notable, as a brand of eggs if not as chicken hybrid, so would definitely pass
WP:GNG. I have an alternative suggestion: a catch-all article on, say, Commercial and industrial chicken hybrids, to which things like this, Dekalb Amberlink, Miss Pepperpot, Daisy Belle and so on could become redirects. That would also provide a sensible destination for the salvageable material from Cornish game hen. However, I have neither the knowledge nor the sympathy even to start such an article. Anyone else? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:24, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
Might be better to create something like a "List of commercial chicken hybrids" or something perhaps? JTdale Talk 09:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Buff turkeys

Is someone fit and willing to sort them out?

There is a mix of the breeds "

) that are handled as two separate breeds in the US. Regarding the FAO a turkey called "Buff" is also an English indigenous breed.[4] The Irish[5] and Australian[6] do know a "Buff" (UK or US type, or an own Australian one?) as well. There is a also a buff variation of the Deutsche Pute[7] and the Czech Turkey, but that may go too far. --PigeonIP (talk) 14:06, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing in that DAD FAO page which asserts that this is a distinct Buff breed from the one also present in the U.S. and Australia. The DAD makes separate statistics pages for each country, even if the breed is spread across countries. Steven Walling • talk 22:03, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And yes, that is, why I asked for someone who knows his turkeys. I never told anyone, the "Buff" in the UK, US, Australia and Ireland are different breeds. (especially that the Irish is different from British is highly unlikely) But it is a possibility you have to look for. (remember: the Pekin of the APA is another duck breed than the Pekin of the PCGB) --PigeonIP (talk) 22:40, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Australian Poultry Standard doesn't define turkey varieties as breeds. It lists all of them under one "Turkey" breed as colours. Buff standard is as follows;

"Male and female: Plumage: a deep cinnamon brown, free from cream. Primaries and secondarieS: white, free of buff markings. Beak: Light horn. Eyes: iris dark hazel, pupil blue-black. Legs and feet: pink and flesh." JTdale Talk 05:39, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. The German has 1 breed in 12 varieties, with differences in weight and plumage (3 heavy, 3 middle, 6 light) [8] The Buff is a light one.
sv-puten-perlhuhn.de
"The whole plumage is a beautiful, rich ocher yellow with deep yellow under feathers. Runs flesh-colored to light red.
Severe faults: White Under plumage, dull plumage, too bright wings.
Weight: young stag: 6-7 kg; mature stag: 7-8 kg, young hens: 4-5 kg, mature hens: 4-5 kg"
from 1945 on, the buff, red and bronce were developed out of the older bronce type.
turkeyclub.org.uk about the Buff:
"The Buff is named for the rich cinnamon colour of its body feathers. The breed was recognized by the American Poultry Association in 1874 but very few now exist in America and there is no longer a standard for it there. [...]
Mature stag: 10kgs – 12.7kgs (22lbs – 28lbs). Young stag: 7.25kgs – 10.4kgs (16lbs – 23lbs)
Mature hen: 5.4kgs – 8.1kgs (12lbs – 18lbs). Young hen 3.6kgs – 6.3kgs (8lbs – 14 lbs)
livestockconservancy.org about the Buff:
"The Buff is a historic variety [..] it was accepted by the American Poultry Association in 1874 and used in the development of the Bourbon Red variety in the late 1800s."
livestockconservancy.org about the Jersey Buff:
"[in] the 1940’s. The New Jersey Agricultural Experiment Station at Millville initiated a program to develop a small to medium size market turkey. [...] The new buff colored birds, called “Jersey Buffs”, were developed through pedigree breeding and selection from crosses of Black, Bourbon Red and Broad Breasted Bronze varieties. [...} the original Buff was used in developing the Bourbon Red and then in turn the Bourbon Red was used in developing the newer Jersey Buff variety. [...]
Young toms weigh about 21 pounds and mature hens about 12 pounds."
nhdb.nl about the "Yellow German turkey":
"Mature stag: 7,0 - 8,0 kg. Mature hen: 4,0 - 5,0 kg.
Young stag : 6,0 - 7,0 kg. Young hen: 4,0 - 5,0 kg"
nhdb.nl about the Buff turkey:
"Mature stag: 12,0 kg. Mature hen: 7,0 kg.
Young stag: 8,5 kg. Young hen: 5,0 kg."
So in my books, the American "Jersey Buff" (fao Jersey Buff/US) is another breed than the British or ancient American Buff (fao Buff/US). And if the "Yellow German turkey" is also called "buff" in Britain, there may be a third breed, that we know of. And I was told, that in the Czech Republic, there is another one... --PigeonIP (talk) 08:48, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

other turkeys

// sorry, if I overdo here --PigeonIP (talk) 08:48, 23 September 2014 (UTC) //[reply]

The breeds of the european association show us, that there are many differences between the countries. The German Standard for example, does not know the
White Holland or the Cambridge bronze. In France, they do know 23 different breeds; in the Netherlands, they know 24 different turkeys; in Belgium, they do know 25 (they also do not know the Royal Palm and the Cambridge bronze[9]
)
I try to make it more descriptive: --PigeonIP (talk) 15:26, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Turkeys
(source: EE-List)
de fr uk us au others
-/- (USA) Dindon bleu d'Amérique Slate turkey
acc. to EE: not in the UK
Slate turkeyGreen tickY AU nhdb.nl ("American slate turkey")
-/-(USA) Dindon bronzé d'Amérique not in the UK Bronze turkey Green tickY AU nhdl.nl: "American Bronze turkey"; shall be the
Standard Bronze in the UK[10]
-/-(USA) Dindon noir d'Amérique not in the UK
Black turkey
Green tickY
AU nhdl.nl: "Black turkey"
-/-(USA) Dindon de Beltsville, blanc Beltsville Small White Beltsville Small WhiteGreen tickY au? nhdb.nl: "Beltsville small white turkey"
-/- (F) Dindon du Bourbonnais, noir not in the UK us ? -/- a black turkey
-/- (GB) -/- Cambridge bronze us? au?
Deutsche Pute, Blau Dindon bleu allemand (B),
Dindon Bleu de Suède (FR)
Blue (Lavender) (?) us? AU nhdb.nl: "Blue turkey"
Deutsche Pute, Bourbon Dindon Bourbon rouge Bourbon RedGreen tickY Bourbon RedGreen tickY AU nhdb.nl (us)
Deutsche Pute, bronzefarbig Dindon bronzé allemand bronze us? au? nhdb.nl: "German bronze turkey"
Deutsche Pute, Cröllwitzer Cröllwitzer CröllwitzerGreen tickY us? -/- nhdb.nl: "Cröllwitzer turkey"
Deutsche Pute, gelb Dindon jaune allemand buff us? au? nhdb.nl "Yellow German turkey"
Deutsche Pute, kupfer -/- bronce us? -/- nhdb.nl: "Copper turkey"
Deutsche Pute, Narragansettfarbig -/- not in the UK us? -/-
Deutsche Pute, rot -/- not in the UK us? -/-
Deutsche Pute, rotflügel Dindon à ailes rouges allemand not in the UK us? -/- nhdb.nl: "Redwing turkey"
Deutsche Pute, schwarz Dindon noir allemand not in the UK us? au?
Deutsche Pute, schwarzflügel Dindon à ailes noires allemand Black winged bronze us? -/- nhdb.nl: "Blackwing turkey"
Deutsche Pute, weiß Dindon blanc allemand British white Green tickY us? au?
-/- (F) Dindon, porcelaine not in the UK us? -/- a French turkey
-/- (F) Dindon du Gers, nior not in the UK us? -/- a black French turkey
-/- (I) Dindon châtain d'Italie not in the UK us? -/- it: Tacchino castano d'Italia
-/- (I) Dindon noir d'Italie not in the UK us? -/- it: Dindon noir d'Italie
-/- (USA) Dindon de Narragansett NarragansettGreen tickY Narragansett Green tickY AU nhdb.nl: "Narragansett turkey"
-/- (GB) -/-
Norfolk black
Green tickY
us -/- nhdb.nl: "Norfolk Black"
-/- (B) Dindon de Ronquières, fauve not in the UK us? -/- nhdb.nl: "Ronquières turkey"
-/- (B) Dindon de Ronquières, à épaulettes jaunes not in the UK us? -/- a French turkey
-/- (B) Dindon de Ronquières, jaspé not in the UK us? -/- a French turkey
-/- (B) Dindon de Ronquières, perdrix not in the UK us? -/- nhdb.nl: "Ronquières turkey"
-/- (B) Dindon de Ronquières, blanc not in the UK us? -/- nhdb.nl: "Ronquières turkey"
-/- (GB) -/- Royal Palm Royal Palm Green tickY AU
-/- (B/F) Dindon Rouge des Ardennes not in the UK us? -/-

nhdb.nl "Red Ardenner turkey"

-/- (F) Dindon de Sologne, noir not in the UK us? -/- nhdb.nl: "Sologne turkey"
-/- (USA) Dindon de Virginie
White Holland turkey
White Holland turkey
Green tickY
au? nhdb.nl "White Holland turkey"
-/- (CZ) -/- not in the UK us? -/- cs: Česká krůta, Divocezbarvené bíle lemované
-/- (CZ) -/- not in the UK us? -/- cs: Česká krůta, šedědivocezbarvene bíle lemované
-/- (E) -/- acc.to EE: not in the UK
acc. to NHDB: "Buff"
us? au? nl: Engelsekalkoen, buff (I'd rather check this one)
Green tickY on nhdb.nl: "Buff turkey"

--PigeonIP (talk) 15:26, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

        • Australian Poultry Standard lists 9 varieties. Royal PalmGreen tickY, SlateGreen tickY, White, BlueGreen tickY, BlackGreen tickY, BronzeGreen tickY, Buff, NarragansettGreen tickY and Bourbon RedGreen tickY. JTdale Talk 07:40, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you: I tried to match them. There may still be some mistakes.
  • White can be the Beltsville Small White, White Holland turkey or the British White
  • Buff is the turkey in question here ;)
--PigeonIP (talk) 09:59, 23 September 2014 (UTC) btw. http://www.nhdb.nl/siervogel/ is a good source. Search via "kalkoenen" and you can see the data-sheet with many pictures to compare.[reply]
APA Turkeys (US)
APA Recognized Breeds and Varieties, 8 varieties of turkey:
Slate (turkey), White Holland --PigeonIP (talk) 19:15, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Chicken breeds reorganisation

I would like to propose a reorganisation of Category:Chicken breeds.

Thoughts? JTdale Talk 11:56, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • comment on proposal 1: "Chicken breeds originating from X" will get pretty messy, at least in Europe. Do you remember the Polish, the Padovana and the Hollands kuifhoen? their are breeds with varieties of different origin. That category-tree gives you plenty room for nationalism and tiring discussions... I'd like to browse a "Chicken breeds (by name)"-Category and see the multifariousness of chicken breeds. The Lahore, for example is sorted into Category:Domesticated pigeon breeds originating in Pakistan (I am with pigeons again, sorry for that). This breed is totally unknown in Pakistan (and India). It is a European breed (of German/Austrian/English origin), a descendent of 2 or more pigeon breeds: the Sherajee (or sherajee-marked Gola) and Gola. The Gola had unfeathered legs with the typical Lahore-markings, the Indic Sherajee had feathered legs and coloured breast-feathers. There are chicken with an equal problem, for example the Malay, that is not a Malayan breed of chicken, as the name suggests. I'd rather remove these categories, but that would be an impossible request ;)
  • comment on proposal 2:
I have seen the mess with geese: the Pilgrim for example is a light goose within the PCGB, but a medium with the APA. Are "Rare Long Crowers (PCGB)"[13] Hardfeather or Softfeather chicken? The APA does not know Hardfeather and Softfeather[14], the PCGB does not know the American breed Chantecler. How to categorise (to the western world) exotic Asian breeds?
If you like to categorise by type: I'd rather go with Category:Large Fowl and Category:Bantam chicken breeds and take into consideration, that most bantams will be redirects to sections of the "Large Fowl"-article. (but I am the German guy, that is familiar with that (European?) concept and different standards for large fowl and look-a-like-bantams and different numbers of accepted coulour-variations for both.) --PigeonIP (talk) 21:33, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think for that reason Bantam/Large categories aren't much use. True Bantam is the only type that'll have dedicated articles. I know official classifications can be a problem. I think it'd be excessive to have a categorisation for every standard though, but I really would like a way to narrow down breed catergorisation. As for Originating From X, you can use multiple when its genuinely from two countries. And blatantly stupid categories can be removed. As for only regionally known breeds - there are always going to be breeds that aren't in a particular standard but are in another. No other country has the Australian Pit Game, Australian Game or Australian Langshan in their standards, or the Watervale or Elizabeth ducks.
@JTdale: I personally have no idea what the difference between "Hardfeather" and "Softfeather chicken" is. That is, why this categorisation would not be usable for me and would potentially lead to mistakes by others as well (at least as long as this concept is unknown for a special breed). The only orientation I would have is a standard. I could understand "ornamental breeds", "longtail chicken" (like the Onagadori), "Silkie chicken" ((Large) Silkie, Silkie bantam, Japanese Silkie with black skin, Siamese Silkie with white skin, others?), "game fowl", "true bantams"; even "clean legged" or "rosecomb" (but there are breeds with rosecombs and normal combs, like the Rhode Island Red). The concept of Category:True bantams also works, because of Bantam (poultry)#True bantams. At least there should be an article for every "type"-category on wikipedia, that defines what the category is for.
As for Originating From X, you can use multiple when its genuinely from two countries. And blatantly stupid categories can be removed. It is not that easy. I won't go there. I already did spend too much time on an attempt to adjust "blatantly stupid" things. Do try to explain to a person, that is not familiar with poultry (breeds) that the Malay is not a Malayan chicken... Category:Chicken breeds originating in Malaysia isn't even obviously wrong, ancestors of that breed are from Malaysia... I have no idea, why the Archangel is part of Category:Domesticated pigeon breeds originating in Croatia but I am pretty sure, if I added Category:Domesticated pigeon breeds originating in Germany... or Category:Chicken breeds originating in Germany to the Sebright (The Silver Sebright got "pure white" in Germany, the original Silver Sebright was cream coloured), people would be fast to remove it. (and I could not be angry about that)
Short: Category:True bantams is a good proposal. "Chicken breeds originating from X"-categories are like "chicken by colour"-categories on commons of limited use for me. Please don't remove all breeds from Category:Chicken breeds, at least not without moving all of them to Category:Chicken breeds by name. --PigeonIP (talk) 09:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you have references that prove a category is wrong, it should be easy to remove it. If not, then something is seriously wrong. How would Chicken breeds by name work? I doubt rosecomb as a category would work as a lot of breeds have varieties in both single and rose as you say. Same with clean legged (i.e: british vs french marans). We could go with categories like Long Crower, Long Tail, True Bantam, Gamefowl, which are more self explanatory? JTdale Talk 14:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What is right, what is wrong with a category named "originating in"... all do go back to domesticated chickens of Indian (?) origin... To most breeds you may be able to add half a dozen categories like that. (my personal problem with them)
More self explanatory categories is a good enough attempt. Even "Long Crower" may get tricky, but let's try it ... .
For "chicken breeds by name" see #chicken category tree --PigeonIP (talk) 16:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Asian breeds you certainly can get confusing origins (actually, I'm presently confused on what to put the 4 varieties of Langshan into, given they are directly developed with supposed little change from Chinese birds yet they were 'refined'/'changed' in certain countries) but maybe then a "Chicken breeds of uncertain origin" category would be worthwhile? Japanese bantams would certainly fit into that, despite their names. JTdale Talk 05:26, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
moved the comment about trees to #chicken category tree --PigeonIP (talk) 10:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My orientation for its "origin" would be the standard. Sometimes even that is inaccurate or vague ("Asia", "Indian subcontinent"). "country" is another thing: The Swedish Blue for example may be a "Swedish" breed, but the region of its origin is the same as the origin of the Pomeranian, is in Germany (and Poland). The Swedish Blue is Category:Duck breeds originating in Sweden, the Pomeranian Category:Goose breeds originating in Germany and Category:Goose breeds originating in Prussia. The latter is a subcategory of Category:Goose breeds by country of origin...
I do not have a solution for "my" problem. I am accepting that they are wished for (even as most of them do have just one page). But I would be totally miserable if Category:Chicken breeds is no longer a place for all chicken breeds.
Maybe a "Chicken breeds of uncertain origin" works, or it is understood as "please help us to find its origin" and you may get these unfortunate discussions. Be bold, try it and see what happens... --PigeonIP (talk) 10:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

After spending a good deal of time trying to make sure that all chicken breeds (and nothing else) were in Category:Chicken breeds, I'm not too keen on proposal 1. I think it's essential to have a place where you can go to see what you've got, all of it together, in one place, without going through 50 or 60 subfolders. {{Infobox poultry breed}} until recently automatically added the page to the category, but I had to disable that to make it usable for other poultry. As for the bantams, I just don't know - both JTdale and PigeonIP make a reasonable case. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 01:45, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

chicken category tree

@JTdale: If you are not allowed to sort the Sebright into Category:Chicken breeds and Category:True Bantam, because the ladder is a subcategory of the former (option 1), you may create Category:Chicken breeds by name (option 2):

<tree option 1>

  1. Category:Chicken
    1. Category:Chicken breeds
      1. Category:Chicken breeds by country of origin
      2. Category:Chicken breeds by type or Category:Chicken breeds by breed group (is necessary if Category:Chicken breeds collects all breeds of (fancy)chicken)
        1. Caregory:Gamefowl
        2. Category:True Bantams
        3. Category:Long Tail
        4. ...
    2. Category:Chicken hybrids or Category:Hybrid chickens
    3. Category:Fictional chickens
    4. Category:Individual chickens
    5. ...

</tree option 1>

<tree option 2>

  1. Category:Chicken
    1. Category:Chicken breeds
      1. Category:Chicken breeds by name (all chicken breeds)
      2. Category:Chicken breeds by country of origin
      3. Category:Gamefowl
      4. Category:True Bantams
      5. Category:Long Tail
      6. ...
    2. Category:Hybrid chickens (← Category:Chicken hybrids)
    3. Category:Fictional chickens
    4. Category:Individual chickens
    5. ...

</tree option 2>

<tree option 3>

  1. Category:Chicken
    1. Category:Chicken breeds (all breeds)
    2. Category:Chicken breeds by country of origin or Category:Chickens by country of origin would also work for feral chicken and hybrids
    3. Category:Gamefowl
    4. Category:True Bantams
    5. Category:Long Tail
    6. Category:Hybrid chickens (← Category:Chicken hybrids)
    7. Category:Fictional chickens
    8. Category:Individual chickens
    9. ...

</tree option 3>

I don't know, if this model exists on en-wp. On Commons it does. Maybe it is a little bit strange to see Chicken breeds by name at the end of an article. Is option 3 worth a try? (I am a fan of flat hierarchy) --PigeonIP (talk) 16:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As for the proposed category trees, I was thinking 2 is my preferred. JTdale Talk 05:26, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
May we try 3 and if it is not working "switch back" to option 2? Or we create a set Category:Chickens (option 4). Another would be option5/6 (creating Category:Fancy chickens; 5 with Category:Chicken breeds by country of origin; 5 with the more general Category:Chickens by country of origin)
My personal favourites are 3 and 4. --PigeonIP (talk) 10:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't care particular much about the point of removing all articles from Category chicken breeds, given as you guys have raised some decent points against that proposal. I don't like proposals 5 or 6 at all; Fancy Chickens isn't really a good parent category. While breeds like the true bantams and long tails are 'fancy', most chicken breeds were bred for a purpose. Cockfighting, meat, eggs, whatever that is. Therefore by definition they aren't 'fancy'. Also I really think if we're going to add categories like Gamefowl, True Bantam, they need to be subcat of Chicken Breeds - as does Chicken breeds by country of origin. Flat hierarchy doesn't work here. JTdale Talk 05:26, 14 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
5 and 6 are out ;)
Hm, "True Bantams" are not a "chicken breed" (Category:Chicken breeds is a Set category) "True Bantams" is a group of chicken breeds. The reason, why I introduced Category:Chickens (don't know a better title) with option 4. "True Bantams" are "Chickens"...
Do what you think is best. --PigeonIP (talk) 07:07, 14 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing says we can't have groups of chicken breeds under Category:Chicken breeds. We already do in fact, with bantams and hybrids. JTdale Talk 19:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If it is a set-and-topic category: yes, we can. Is it the best possible solution? I don't know. With the stricter definition of "breeds" (True breeding, "hybrid chickens are no breed"), it may not be the best. It depends on the definition of Category:Chicken breeds. --PigeonIP (talk) 10:46, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well googles definition is noun: breed; plural noun: breeds - "a stock of animals or plants within a species having a distinctive appearance and typically having been developed by deliberate selection." This would therefore kind of cover hybrids I guess, since they were selected for a distinctive appearance and through deliberate selection. If it was talking about breeding true, then they'd fail. See also Breed. JTdale Talk 23:18, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

<tree option 4>

  1. Category:Chicken (Topic category)
    1. Category:Chickens (Set category)
      1. Category:Chicken breeds (all breeds)
      2. Category:Chicken breeds by country of origin or Category:Chickens by country of origin would also work for feral chicken and hybrids
      3. Caregory:Gamefowl
      4. Category:True Bantams
      5. Category:Long Tail
      6. Category:Chicken hybrids or Category:Hybrid chickens
      7. Category:Fictional chickens
      8. Category:Individual chickens
      9. ...
    2. Category:Chicken dishes
    3. Category:Cockfighting
    4. ...

</tree option 4>

<tree option 5>

  1. Category:Chicken (Topic category)
    1. Category:Fancy chickens (Set category)
      1. Category:Chicken breeds (all breeds)
      2. Category:Chicken breeds by country of origin
      3. Caregory:Gamefowl
      4. Category:True Bantams
      5. Category:Long Tail
    2. Category:Hybrid chickens (← Category:Chicken hybrids)
    3. Category:Fictional chickens
    4. Category:Individual chickens
    5. ...
    6. Category:Chicken dishes
    7. Category:Cockfighting
    8. ...

</tree option 5>

<tree option 6>

  1. Category:Chicken (Topic category)
    1. Category:Fancy chickens (Set category)
      1. Category:Chicken breeds (all breeds)
      2. Caregory:Gamefowl
      3. Category:True Bantams
      4. Category:Long Tail
    2. Category:Chickens by country of origin (← Category:Chicken breeds by country of origin and feral chickens and hybrids)
    3. Category:Hybrid chickens (← Category:Chicken hybrids)
    4. Category:Fictional chickens
    5. Category:Individual chickens
    6. ...
    7. Category:Chicken dishes
    8. Category:Cockfighting
    9. ...

</tree option 6>

Notification of major merger discussion

I would like to notify members of the Wikiproject to a major merger discussion at

Sex link and Cornish game hen into an ovearching hybrid chickens article. Please comment. JTdale Talk 12:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

Proposed notability guideline

I would like to request comment from other members of the WikiProject on a proposal for a project guideline on notability of poultry breeds. Please see User:JTdale/Notability (poultry breeds) and then leave your thoughts here and tell me what needs editing, adding, removing etc.

JTdale Talk 18:48, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject X is live!

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Harej (talk) 16:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion on capitalisation of poultry breeds.

Please see Talk:Poultry#Capitalization_of_bird_names. JTdaleTalk~ 08:09, 15 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on foie gras

Hi. There is an RfC on Foioe gras which may be of interest to editors on this Project. It relates to whether detailed information on legislation about the production and sale of foie gras should be on the Foie gras page. Your input will be welcomed.__DrChrissy (talk) 23:21, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Notability (breeds)

Please see

breeds. As your wiki-project is involved in this area, I am dropping off an invite to the discussion. Please visit Wikipedia talk:Notability (breeds). Thanks! JTdaleTalk~ 16:16, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply
]

Capitalization of breed names

According to @Justlettersandnumbers: (when referring to geese), "Livestock breed names are invariably capitalized in Wikipedia [and elsewhere]". I agree in part, but in other literature the word "goose" is not capitalized, except in some article titles, even in breed names, unless "goose" is a proper noun. Even in Wikipedia it is not generally the case that the whole name is capitalized. The part of the article name that is the type of animal (e.g. dog, cattle, shark, whale) is not usually capitalized. If no-one has any objection I intend to continue renaming articles whose names are over-capitalized. Jodosma (talk) 20:43, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Generally I believe our WikiProjects view is breed names are capitalised. That is the part of the name that belongs to the breed. Generally we don't use the species name as an attachment at all except when it can't be helped such as
Sebright or an American Game would break the mind of the average reader. Therefore I personally have given up entirely on the argument. If I attempted to weigh in I'd inevitably get so sick of the views of the opposite side I'd quit Wikipedia like so many members of WikiProject Birds did over the same issue and we've already lost enough animal editors to the MOS crusaders. JTdaleTalk~ 11:17, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply
]
In the Orpington Duck article, in the content we see "Orpington duck". Why should there be any problem with the word "duck" not being capitalized? No-one would insist on "President Obama's Home" or "Prime Minister Abbott's House", they would surely accept "President Obama's home" or "Prime Minister Abbott's house", otherwise we should have to capitalize "home" and "house" whenever they were used. I have no objection to the use of Orpington Duck if it were the name of a pub but if it's a breed of duck we are discussing then I don't see any reason to use "Duck" instead of "duck". Jodosma (talk) 19:33, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just drop it, please. As JTdale says, this particular horse has been beaten to death. And then some. No one on either side of this issue has the energy left for round 257,049,103 of the capitalization wars. And we lose good editors every round. The very short answer to your question is that sometimes the species name is part of a breed's "official" name and sometimes it isn't. The real problem is that, probably due to the WP software not understanding that capitals and lower case letters are the same thing, WP tends to prefer sentence case for article titles, which is not the way the rest of the world functions. The real world uses title case for... titles. Wish we did here too, would end much of this nonsense. Sigh. Montanabw(talk) 06:13, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh(!) I'm feeling a little worn out too, and giving up the ghost on this one. I hadn't realized that there were these cosy little enclaves on Wikipedia full of self-important, vainglorious folk with such visceral feelings. I will never darken this doorstep again. Jodosma (talk) 09:20, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry that you feel that way Jodosma. I personally have no opinion either way anymore, but this battle almost destroyed WikiProject Birds and so most people in the animal areas tend to try and drop it now. JTdaleTalk~ 12:00, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose this is what happens when projects like Wikipedia try to be all things to everyone. They inevitably end up meaning very little to a tiny few and nothing at all to most. Wikipedia's true value is in the cited sources. Jodosma (talk) 20:55, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Adding more sources to articles is always helpful. Montanabw(talk) 02:14, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

American Pekin Duck

Would anyone care to take a look at

American Pekin Duck, where there's disagreement over the reliablility of sources and the relevance of some content? Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 08:23, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply
]

Breed confirmation (Ancona ducks)?

Someone at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds suggested I would better ask this here.

I took 3 photos last Sunday in Wright Park, Tacoma, Washington, U.S., which I'm pretty certain are Ancona ducks, but I'm not exactly a poultry expert. I realize in particular that it can be hard to visually distinguish an Ancona duck from a Magpie duck, but I'm pretty sure the speckling on these is too irregular to be a Magpie duck. I figured I should just put them here rather than in the Ancona duck article until someone can confirm. - Jmabel | Talk 22:49, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

AfD alert

See Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Chris_Sherwin biography. Chris was a project member (now deceased). Atsme📞📧 01:57, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Domestic animal breed page names

I have started a discussion about page naming conventions for domestic animal breeds at

talk) 06:51, 2 December 2017 (UTC).[reply
]

Writing about breeds

After two new-ish editors ended up at

WP:ANI in the same week for breeds-related disruptive editing (and one topic-ban was issued), I've expanded a bullet-point list of advice for them into an essay: Wikipedia:Writing about breeds
.

It provides a crash course in how to write about breeds the Wikipedia way. It's mostly for new editors, but might be of use to some more experienced ones who have not written about breeds before or thought much about how our

WP:P&G apply to the topic area.  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  07:52, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

Capitalization of names of standardized breeds

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC on capitalization of the names of standardized breeds.

This is a neutral RfC on a question left unanswered by

MOS:ORGANISMS in draft proposal state for 6 years.  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  22:04, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

On the section Broiler#World_production_and_consumption, the last line, I could not get the citation to work right. Not sure what I'm missing. Thanks, Marasama (talk) 22:51, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The DOI seems to be incorrect, Marasama. Where did you see the article? – I can find no trace of it. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:39, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's odd, it worked for me. Must've been a redirect where the direct failed later? Anyhow, here's where I found it.

  • [15] - reference link at the bottom.
  • [16] - the link goes here.

Thanks, Marasama (talk) 03:51, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article is very new; probably the doi isn't active yet. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:11, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A new newsletter directory is out!

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Request for information on WP1.0 web tool

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We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma (talk) 04:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

First annual Tree of Life Decemberween contest

After all the fun with the

talk) 18:25, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply
]

Active

Finally, the WikiProject I have made active. 🐔Chicdat ChickenDatabase 15:10, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with WikiProject Birds and/or WP Agriculture

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds#Make WikiProject Poultry a task force. --awkwafaba (📥) 14:43, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Articles section, updated

Greetings, On WP page, I added wikilinks to "Popular pages" (which is now working & runs monthly), and "Quality operations". JoeNMLC (talk) 15:50, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. 🐔 Chicdat  Bawk to me! 12:57, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]