Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film

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The Woman King

There is a content dispute at The Woman King. Please see discussion thread here: Talk:The Woman King § Problematic edits. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 14:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More has happened on this front. Editors are invited to review the content dispute and share thoughts about what content to include or exclude. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 15:32, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This content dispute is continuing. Editors are invited to comment. Thanks, Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 18:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seeking input on process (discussion about whether to have a discussion)

In the last half of 2023, there were several discussions of whether to capitalize Westerns as a genre.[1][2][3] followed by a move review [4] and yet another RM [5] They were move requests for individual articles related to subgenre article titles. The end result was a slight lean towards upper case "Westerns". I fully expect this discussion to come up again because the MOS participants generally circle back around on a regular basis (and already had, if you note that last link). The reason I bring this up here is that it mostly affects the Film project (although some TV as well), and that the move requests leave us inconsistent if done on the articles these discussions occurred at, making it a backdoor to changing capitalization all around (although there is some inconsistency already). I believe that it would be better to have a broader discussion about the genre's capitalization or lowercasing as a whole, one that incorporates participation from the projects it affects. The two key points of past debate tend to center around the following:

  1. Both sides (uppercase "Western" and lowercase "western") have used the same guideline as support, depending on the interpretation:
    MOS:GENRECAPS. Genre is generally lowercased unless it is a proper noun. The lowercase crowd takes that at face value, and that "Western" is "Western civilization" while "western" is the genre. The uppercase crowd points out that the name of the "Western" genre comes specifically from "the American West" and the "Wild West shows" of the 1870s, such as the sourced description from Western film
    : Western films derive from the Wild West shows that began in the 1870s. Originally referred to as "Wild West dramas", the shortened term "Western" came to describe the genre.
  2. Capitalization in sources is split. The MOS crowd generally uses a lot of
    ngrams to support their position. However, in some of the previous discussions, these were accused of cherry picking and other inaccuracies. The fact is, it's inconsistent in sources - even across highly reliable ones (for example, uppercase in the The Oxford Encyclopedia of American Cultural and Intellectual History and in some academic film texts, while lowercase in others, including the AFI
    ). The fact is, it's about dead even across the board with a slight edge in one direction or the other depending on the sources looked at and the context.

Previous discussion was very close, and somewhat contentious, which is why I expect this will come up again until there is a thorough discussion attended by more than just MOS editors that results in a clear consensus one way or the other. The question is one of venue and process. Should this be an RfC? Where should it take place to generate the widest possible participation that includes editors who participate in the genre (and are thus informed on it) and how to avoid degenerating into the bludgeoning that previous discussions have had? Is that the Western (genre) article? Or, since it affects primarily the Western film genre the most, should it happen here? Looking for some input from film project participants all around. TIA. ButlerBlog (talk) 18:03, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I support capitalization, and have since this first came up. My feeling is the discussion focuses on the film genre because Wiki biases in that direction (its coverage of the literary Western is thin at best, and TV isn't much better), but I don't believe that's the correct place to have the discussion. The genre article feels like a better choice to me because it removes the artificial spotlight from films and redirects it to the parent genre. There were Westerns both on stage and in print well before motion pictures. As an aside, I find the "Western civilization" argument rather spurious (and often advanced by editors who either don't know much about the genre or have another agenda). Intothatdarkness 15:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dictionaries seem split ("Western": [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]; "western": [12] [13] [14] [15]), but lean toward capping. AP style and BuzzFeed specify capping, The Guardian specifies lowercase, and every other style guide I looked at was silent. Ngrams show "Western" leading. Too many times do editors think "sources" only means news publications and books.
MOS:COMPASS. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

Old project pages

I happened to swing by the WikiProject homepage and noticed the tab header. Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Coordinators and Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Spotlight are both severely out-of-date, having been last updated substantively in 2011. (We have a "spotlight department"?!) They should be marked {{historical}} and removed from the tab header. Looking at the other pages, Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Outreach is also very old, and I'm not sure if anyone reads it anymore, but the newsletter doesn't exist anymore — the "current" issue has been stuck in January 2012 for a decade (if anyone would like to bring this one back, I would support that, but someone would need to step up). Pinging the three "coordinators" who are still around: @Erik, Bovineboy2008, Karthikndr, and MikeAllen. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:13, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! Yes, I support marking them as historical and retiring them from the project scope (but still keep a link to them somewhere). WikiProject Film has changed over the years. My personal take is that editors tend to work on topics of their own interest, and there is rarely collaboration. I find the most important aspect of WikiProject Film to be the MOS. In terms of engagement, I hope that editors can at least be willing to resolve content disputes that are brought up here. Oftentimes there is a dispute between two editors in some random film article, and having third and fourth opinions can help resolve that (usually). Beyond these considerations, I am not sure if there is much desire for collaboration and upkeep. We can probably instead emphasize the automated pages, like Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Popular pages and Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Article alerts. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 16:00, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Superman (1978 film)#Requested move 1 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May be of great interest to this Wikiproject. Here is the navbox under discussion: {{Cahiers du Cinéma's Top Ten Films}}. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Archive 81#Template:Sight and Sound Poll for context. --woodensuperman 14:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Content exists in other forms such as a list article Cahiers du Cinéma's Annual Top 10 Lists. It would not be a loss to delete a redundant table of links that almost half of users never even see and is usually further hidden from those few who are even shown it. Good riddance to yet another unnecessary Navbox. -- 109.76.131.136 (talk) 02:26, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As long as comments are being allowed here, this top ten list is one of the two most credible lists (the first, the Sight and Sound poll template, was removed by two "votes" and will be deletion reviewed), and is valuable for readers of the film's pages to contrast and compare among the other films listed as top tens. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:34, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RM notice — Bruce Wayne (1989 film series character)

An editor has requested that

Bruce Wayne (1989 film series), which may be of interest to this WikiProject. You are invited to participate in the move discussion
.

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Meek's Cutoff (film)#Requested move 4 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:49, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More deletion attempts of AFI poll navboxes

See Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 March 1#AFI templates. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:36, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These should have been speedy deleted anyway due to prior consensus at this discussion and recent deletion of similar navboxes here. --woodensuperman 16:48, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since comments seems to be allowed here, these navboxes cover topics of much interest to Wikipedia's film fans and film readers, and we basically should be making all edits in favor of the readers. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:05, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If they're eligible for G4, why did you send them to RfD? InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tarzan (1999 film)

There's a discussion about the plot summary for Tarzan (1999 film). Please see the thread here: Talk:Tarzan (1999 film)#Plot rewrite. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 06:03, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Star Wars

Hello, I'm a new editor and have been doing a lot of work on the Star Wars page. I've been having a discussion with other editors about the "Cinematic and literary allusions" section. I feel it has a lot of issues, but I'm having trouble communicating to the others what the problems are. I'm beginning to wonder whether I'm wrong, and the issues I've identified are not problems at all. Instead of trying to list all the issues here, I'm wondering whether an experienced editor would be willing to read through the section and offer their perspective, so I have a better sense of whether my views are correct or not. Thank you! Wafflewombat (talk) 08:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the thread you have started at the article's talk page is the right approach. I would focus that discussion on the more controversial changes, such as wording that you think should be removed entirely. If you keep your suggestions to the point and don't get any responses still then there is nothing wrong with being bold and making the changes, they can always be reverted and discussed later if needed. For the wording that is presented as fact but is actually an opinion in the sources, I would recommend rewording it rather than removing it entirely. Hope that helps. - adamstom97 (talk) 08:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reply. I'm just feeling frustrated because people tell me to post potential edits on the talk page instead of just making them, but then nobody replies to the talk page post! It seems like the only time people want to discuss edits is when I make one that upsets them. Wafflewombat (talk) 09:11, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Twentieth Century-Fox

I'm working on the page for Star Wars, which was produced by Twentieth Century-Fox (this is the spelling, including the hyphen, that was used at the time). Some parts of the article use the name "20th Century-Fox." Which is correct? So far, I've been using the first version, because that's how it's spelled on its Wikipedia page. Wafflewombat (talk) 10:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfC

Talk:Paul Atreides#RfC on the infobox image has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sony Spider-Man Universe

Although the franchise “Spider-Man” has the Sony Spider Universe under its category, shouldn’t the Sony Spider-Man universe have its own heading in the top 25 highest grossing superhero franchises as it contains its own “universe”? Pathaan2024 (talk) 04:13, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From a real-world perspective it is the same franchise from the same film studio, regardless of what fictional "universe" the films are set in. - adamstom97 (talk) 09:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2014 films by country

As everybody here knows, the project's standard practice is that a country gets one base list of its films first, with separate by-year lists spun off only when that base list has become too large and needs to be chunked out for size management purposes -- but specifically in 2014, one user undertook a misguided project of creating standalone "list of country films of 2014" for every single country where they could find even one film to list, which has never otherwise been done for any other year before or since. So where all other "Lists of YYYY films by country" categories have about 25 articles in them, Category:Lists of 2014 films by country alone has 80.

Obviously, a country should have a 2014 list only if it's also got a more complete set for other years alongside it — if the country otherwise only has by-decade lists, then the 2014 list should be merged to "List of country films of the 2010s", and if the country otherwise only has one base list, then the 2014 list should be merged there. And even where a list is justifiable, some of them are separating the films on a "major releases" vs. "minor releases" distinction that seems awfully

point of view
to me (as in, what's the criterion for distinguishing "major" from "minor" here?) and probably should be kiboshed.

I've started tackling some of the unnecessary lists with merger or deletion discussions, but this is obviously a big project and I could use some help. So I wanted to ask if anybody is willing to help go through Category:Lists of 2014 films by country to identify and deal with some of the more unwarranted pages. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Sammarinese films of 2014 (where there's no viable merge target, because even a base list of Sammarinese films doesn't exist at all) has additionally seen some support for the idea that we could legitimately just mass-merge or mass-delete them without having to individually discuss each one, but of course each editor's personal comfort level with just acting on their own needs to be taken into consideration. So feel free to initiate a merger or deletion discussion if you'd prefer, or just be bold if you're comfortable with that — but this problem has been lingering for a decade, so it's time that we did something to fix it. Bearcat (talk) 18:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Determining the "year" of a film

Not sure if this is discussed anywhere, but if a film premieres in 1982, but isn't released into theaters until 1983, is it considered a "1982 film" or a "1983 film"? Specifically, I'm referring to Koyaanisqatsi. IMDb lists it as a 1982 film [16] but other sources consider it a 1983 film: Criterion BFI AFI. I don't know what the standards are so I would appreciate some input. Thanks. –Dream out loud (talk) 14:47, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The premiere year is sufficient. I think the idea is that the film is "completed" at that point and has been seen by people outside of the production (even if it's not the moviegoing audience). Like I see that The New York Times reviewed it in 1982 here. This happened with A Quiet Place Part II, premiering in 2020 before the pandemic hit, and the consensus there is to stick with 2020 even though its theatrical release was 2021. No issue with mentioning 1983 relatively upfront in Koyaanisqatsi's lead section, though. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 15:23, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Different sources have different practices, and you can even find some sources that will classify films as "year that the film was in production" even if they were never publicly screened until one or more years after that, so our consensus has always been to go with the year of the original (often, but not always, festival) premiere. For instance, a film that premiered at the 2023 Cannes Film Festival would be a 2023 film even if it takes until 2025 for it to actually screen anywhere else. Bearcat (talk) 16:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As stated above, WP consensus is to use the year a film first premiered, i.e was publicly screened. If there's noteworthy info about a film's premiere and/or release schedule that can be mentioned in the lead. Lapadite (talk) 07:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reliability of BFI for country of production

IP user 2600:1002:B0EC:304A:0:36:E682:6901 (talk · contribs) has been amending a few film articles to include Japan as a country of production based on listings at the BFI (for example The Thing [17], which does indeed have USA and Japan as production country at the BFI [18] but not Canada as also listed at the article).

The inclusion of Japan seems to be based on the involvement of a company called Dentsu, which appears to be solely an advertising company with no mention of film production in their article.

Has there been any previous discussion on the reliability of the BFI for sourcing production countries? Barry Wom (talk) 13:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we should assume a database like BFI is "perfect". It's always possible for any database to get it wrong. I think for some crew members, the BFI database's filmography has been spotty. That said, when that happens, we have to sort through on a case-by-case basis. The Lumiere database states US and CA for the film here, and AFI Catalog shows just US here. There are three companies in the film's billing block: Universal Pictures, Morgan Creek Productions, and Strike Entertainment, which seem all US-based. Dentsu is not a production company, and that false inclusion triggers the improper Japanese categorization. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 13:55, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is why it is good to look at multiple sources. A good example of this would be Subspecies (film series). For a long time it was listed as "American-Romanian", but I finally went through the sources and the was only 1 film that ever listed "Romanian" as a country, and that film didn't have "Romanian" listed on any other website. American was the only one listed for the rest of the films and for the first film beyond that one website, which I believe was in fact BFI.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 14:54, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Dentsu is not a production company"
So it would be safe to revert the addition of Japan as a production country if the only reason for its inclusion is the appearance of Dentsu in the BFI listings and/or the credits?
The user has now amended approaching 30 articles and it would be a tad dispiriting to have to through them all checking for multiple sources to refute the inclusion of Japan. Barry Wom (talk) 15:43, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment at Template:Infobox_film#Country is interesting. BFI is mentioned as one of the country sources that makes their own determinations of nationality based on their own research and criteria. Dentsu's involvement appears to be financial only, not creative. They do get an "In association with" credit on some films. Changes in nationality for a film should depend on more than just a listing in one country's database particularly for articles with long standing stability in how nationality is stated. Conflicting sources should be discussed in the article talk page to form a consensus on how we note film nationality. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Remember that the attributed nationality of a film is determined according to the balance of multiple RS, not according to any editor’s OR nor to the conclusion of any single website. It’s still the case that too many editors think that their own OR based on the financing of the film or the geographical locations, or ownership, of the production companies involved, can override RS descriptions of from which nationality the creative input originated. MapReader (talk) 18:53, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • BFI is reliable, they have a consistent methodology for assigning nationalities. Many countries have different legalistic ways of assigning nationality for the purpose of tax credits etc. The question is more one of WP:WEIGHT and the context. For example, if a country listing is anomalous I would overlook it, unless it is relevant to the context in some way e.g. the UK has legal criteria for the nationality of a film, so the British law is relevant if you are logging box-office takings in that particular country. However, at international level, national laws are irrelevant, unless our sources give sufficient weighting to such national designations. Betty Logan (talk) 21:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • For years that most of these articles have been created, the company Dentsu has never been included. The IP is also changing to the Country parameter to Japan. It seems like the BFI page has been updated recently? This shows that the "production country" is USA/Japan, but if you look at the top right corner of page, it states the copyright is to USA. Also Dentsu is credited with "Presented in association with". The IP seems to be misrepresenting the source and massively editing pages in a disruptive manner. PS. They are now undoing edits and adding to more articles as 2600:1002:B0C9:6A1:0:2D:5D1F:5301 (talk · contribs). I have invited them to this discussion. Mike Allen 16:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Mike. I see you've been reverting these additions; please consider putting a link to this discussion in your edit summaries rather than using the auto-generated language with the vague "unconstructive" comment. To most editors (as it did to me) it will otherwise look like misuse of Rollback and an incorrect reversion of properly sourced info. Thanks for directing me to this for the necessary context. Grandpallama (talk) 16:14, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Generally edits in the range Special:Contributions/2600:1002:B000::/40. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:22, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is The Crow a superhero film?

I think the use of "superhero" as a genre has been plenty abused on Wikipedia but is the Crow really a superhero film? This seems to be purely based on films being based on comics, although Darkman is also apparently a superhero film. There's a discussion at Talk:The_Crow_(1994_film) for further input. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Snow White and the Huntsman#Requested move 6 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Killarnee (talk) 22:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Accolades

Hi, I'm working on this page and I noticed that many of the awards listed in the large table are also listed in prose. Should they be listed twice? Should I remove the prose mentions? Also, should I add to the table the awards that aren't currently in it? Wafflewombat (talk) 06:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion that article should decide what style it wants, prose or table and yes, not duplicate it. I can see a reason sometimes to duplicate a specific mention if there is additional context, this is not what's been done there. Gonnym (talk) 07:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Wafflewombat (talk) 07:30, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

John Mahoney

About a month ago, an anonymous IP made an edit to actor John Mahoney's article, following up on the statement in the "Personal life" section that "To the surprise of much of the public, when he died, many tributes noted that he had lived privately as a gay man and was a well-known fixture on the Chicago LGBTQ scene" with the strange assertion that this was likely a lie concocted by LGBTQ activists due to "opposition" to the heteromasculinity of Martin Crane.

Now, firstly, LGBTQ people have very real issues sometimes with how we are portrayed in film and television, but there has never in all of recorded history been even one single, solitary example of the LGBTQ community ever being "opposed" to the basic existence of heterosexual characters. And even more importantly, it's frickin' Frasier — why on earth would LGBTQ people ever have to make up lies about the sexuality of John Mahoney just to get LGBTQ representation out of a show that already had David Hyde Pierce, Dan Butler and Edward Hibbert in it? Not to mention that John Mahoney himself also appeared in the gay-themed film The Broken Hearts Club, and played a gay character in an episode of ER, so why would we ever need to make stuff up about him just because of Frasier? And besides, I've known more than a few gay men in my day who openly wished their own father had been like Martin Crane, because he unconditionally loved his sons even if he didn't always understand them. Why would LGBTQ people ever have a problem with that? So the statement just doesn't make much sense at all, and obviously wasn't supported by sourcing for it.

Obviously I've removed the claptrap, but the fact that it survived a month in the article without getting noticed implies that it slipped a lot of watchlisters' attentions. So I just wanted to ask if a few more people could help look out for this in case somebody tries to readd it in the future. Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 16:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could I please have some help woth this rejected draft on an early British filmmaker? FloridaArmy (talk) 21:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Historical accuracy of Gladiator

Hi, I'm not sure where to post this, so I'm putting it here. The Gladiator page needs a Historical Accuracy section, because the film takes many liberties with history. I removed the previous Historical Accuracy section because it was completely unsourced. I spent a lot of time editing the Gladiator page over the past few months, but I don't have the time or energy for this task. I posted a thread on the talk page with a little more info. Wafflewombat (talk) 19:31, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that
Historical accuracy of Gladiator (2000 film) was merged into the film article, so those details should be there unless someone removed them. - adamstom97 (talk) 09:20, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Like I said above, I removed them because they were completely unsourced. Someone who wants to put in the work could retrieve those unsourced segments to create a skeleton structure for the section, but they will still have to do the research of finding sources to back up the claims. Wafflewombat (talk) 09:45, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This shows sources that can be used, it's just that that version was drowned out by armchair historians. Gladiator: Film and History looks like it should be a key source. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 22:49, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for finding that! Wafflewombat (talk) 23:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Page Six
)

There is a

WP:RSN § RfC: Entertainment coverage of the New York Post (including Decider and Page Six). — Newslinger talk 22:02, 16 March 2024 (UTC) Edited to add Page Six — Newslinger talk 03:25, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

Puck News

I am inquiring into the reliability or usage of Puck News. I have been seeing it cited on a few film articles recently. Rusted AutoParts 03:23, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Applying
WP:USEBYOTHERS, I see that it is covered by Wall Street Journal, The New Yorker, and CNN. It seems fine, as far as I can tell. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 03:26, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
I have used Puck as a source for various film and entertainment business news in my editing and have found many of their articles to be quite reputable. Their authors all have prior experience with major trades and news orgs. I see nothing that could cast sufficient doubt on their reliability. Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your view is welcome. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An editor has requested that List of Korean films of 1919–1948 be moved to List of films produced in Korea under Japanese rule, which may be of interest to this WikiProject. You are invited to participate in the move discussion. toobigtokale (talk) 20:03, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New Editor - Questions about Plot Summaries

I'm new to editing Wikipedia and even newer to editing Film pages themselves, but stumbled upon the page for Dutchman (film) and, having seen the film, realized the notes on plot were a bit lacking. I'd like to assist with expanding this page, but wanted to ask for some clarification/guidelines for a new editor when it comes to editing a page like this. Are citations needed for a plot summary? Is there any introductory guidelines to writing something like that? Any information would be much appreciated. WW0CJ (talk) 00:43, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@
MOS:FILMPLOT for the guideline regarding plots in film articles. Citations are usually not needed for plots as the film would be the primary source itself. (P.S. Welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you will enjoy editing here.) Jolly1253 (talk) 01:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

Discussion on The Lion King II

Hello. There's an ongoing discussion regarding the recent changes to the plot and lead sections of The Lion King II: Simba's Pride, which can be found at Talk:The Lion King II: Simba's Pride#Changes to the plot and lead. Input from project members would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:20, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Attributed to multiple sources?

I'm seeing a pattern at

WP:CITEKILL? Or is there an acceptable variation of this pattern that I'm missing? Armegon (talk) 19:17, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

It is acceptable to combine multiple references per
WP:CITEMERGE, usually how I do it is put all of the cite templates inside a single set of ref tags, which would be cleaner than the solution used here. For example, many of the inline citations at Peacemaker (TV series)#Viewership combine multiple sources that cover viewership data for different weeks. - adamstom97 (talk) 19:48, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Mixing explanatory footnotes and these kinds of bundled references under the same heading of "Notes", as is done at Godzilla Minus One#Notes, should however be avoided. TompaDompa (talk) 20:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that shouldn't happen. I would recommend doing something similar to John Wick (film)#Footnotes. I should also note that an efn with a list of <ref>'s (while common) is not the only way to do this; some articles just use a regular <ref> tag followed by a bulleted list. InfiniteNexus (talk) 20:47, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think this has been brought up here before. The purpose of bundling citations is to avoid CITEKILL, so no, it does not violate CITEKILL. Bundling is done pretty widely on Wikipedia, not just on film articles (especially for EXCEPTIONAL claims where bundling citations is essentially required). InfiniteNexus (talk) 20:43, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Got it. Thank you all for responding. Armegon (talk) 23:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are alternative title redirects (with parenthetical qualifiers indicating years) accepted as full-fledged titles to the extent of affecting the header forms of actual film articles?

A discussion regarding this question is currently active at Talk:Murder, Inc. (1960 film)#Requested move 22 March 2024. —Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 22:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Billing

When creating a list of cast members for a film (both in the main article and in the infobox), should the credits of the film be the basis for how the list is ordered, or a "billing block" found on a poster or elsewhere? For this page, a billing block from the poster was used, but the credits of the film lay things out differently, re-ordering the cast members and calling some of the stars from the poster "supporting cast." Wafflewombat (talk) 04:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Either can be used, but the default is typically to follow the billing block unless special local consensus has determined otherwise. If an article has done it a certain way for a very long time, it shouldn't be arbitrarily changed without a reason and without discussion, per
MOS:VAR. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:17, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Thanks, that's helpful. Wafflewombat (talk) 05:39, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You also use what's available. There isn't always a billing block on the film's poster, so check the beginning and end credits of a film. If there are discrepancies, a local consensus should determine how to go about it. Before a film's theatrical release, reviews and articles from reputable publications that list a film's stars and main cast can be used as a guide. Lapadite (talk) 06:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you familiar with

MOS:FILMCAST? The general idea is to try to follow a rule of thumb (as opposed to deciding for yourself what the order should be). Generally speaking, the billing block can suffice, but if there are different orders available, try to see which order is more prevalent, whether in databases or in books that write about the film (since they sometimes do a cast list as part of that coverage). Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 12:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

  • The billing for Jedi is as follows:

In trying to wikilink to

Industrial films, I noticed that they went to two different articles. Are these the same topic?4meter4 (talk) 17:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

Seeing as how
Industrial films redirects to Sponsored film which links to industrial video as a type of sponsored film, then I would say yes and fix the plural redirect. Gonnym (talk) 18:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

A couple of days ago, I obtained an incredible source: It's called the ACE Second Decade Anniversary Book. It has many biographies and deaths of various film editors that have never been posted on the internet before, as well as a summary of the Eddie Awards from 1961–1971. The some of the death dates are not 100% accurate, but most of them are.

Here's some changes that I've made using that book as a source:

Furthermore, I created the first FOUR Eddie Awards pages, using additional sources from

Newspapers.com
:

The 1965 one is an INCREDIBLE article, considering that it was the FIRST ever award by the group that introduced the "Eddie" awards. It also had multiple categories and a surprising amount of coverage from the Newspapers.com sources, including ONE source that is more complete than the IMDb listing for the award. Thus, I want some people to help me create all of the articles from

2006, as well as clean-up and expand 20072021. Yoshiman6464 ♫🥚 22:37, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

Plot summary discussion in Aladdin

There is a discussion at Talk:Aladdin (1992 Disney film)#Hidden comment in plot summary that may be of interest to this project. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:35, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Having gone through these two categories,African films and African cinema, I feel the contents should both be put under one mother category...perhaps Category:African film and television? This would have all the African film and television content under one mother category for easy sorting and location of related articles. We're trying to integrate the https://bambots.brucemyers.com/cwb/bycat/ to the WikiProject AfroCreatives, but it can only link to a single category. Linking it to either African films or African cinema would leave out a lot of articles that could worked on, hence my recommendation to have the put under a mother category. Ceslause (talk) 22:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Calling a movie a "classic" as a factual statement

Is it ok to call a movie a "classic" in an encyclopedia as a factual statement? I have a problem with this, because to me it sounds like praise.

I've discussed this with a number of people and some make the claim, that you only need to be able to quote enough people who are saying that a movie is a classic, to call it a classic.

But wouldn't that be like saying a movie is "good", and providing "sources" for that claim? Since there is hardly anything that is liked by literally everyone, i think saying "this movie is a classic" should be avoided in favor of saying "this movie is (widely) considered a classic".

"It is considered a classic" is provable. "It is a classic" is not really provable.

In my view it is probably ok to use the world "classic" when referring to something that is not from the modern era. "Romeo and Juliet" for example.

Some people seem to be of the opinion, that the word "classic" just means that a movie is very influential. But then why not just say that instead? The movie "Chinatown" for example has 98% on Rotten Tomatoes which means there are critics who gave it a bad review. They would certainly agree that the movie has been influential, but i don't think they would call it a classic. They would agree that it is "widely considered a classic" though, because that is a fact.

Why? Because the word "classic" encompasses two things: First, the general status of a movie and second the perceived quality of a movie (by the one using the word). That's the way i see it. Some people don't seem to see it that way at all but i'm not sure why.

Would be happy to hear a few opinions on this. Thanks! Dornwald (talk) 14:05, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For many films the single word seems an apt descriptor per
WP:BLUESKY. Films such as It's a Wonderful Life, Citizen Kane, and Wizard of Oz come to mind as universally accepted classic films. The age of the film plays a role in the terminology, as newer films have not yet earned such a descriptor, but the older films which have merit Blue Sky wording. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:19, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
I have to disagree with you. It has to be verifiable that a film is a classic. Not to mention that the films you mentioned are US-centric. Would you balk at seeing
WP:PEACOCK in which we would contextualize the application of such a label. The word "classic" is a qualifier like "famous" or "good" and needs to be verified. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 14:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
You can't verify "good", that's part of my point. Dornwald (talk) 16:17, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you can, in the example seen at
WP:PEACOCK. It has to be given context. Like, "Critics called it a good film," if a reliable source said that. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 17:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
right. "critics call it a classic" is also fine by me. "it is a classic" is not. Dornwald (talk) 18:27, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To expand, a more basic description would be to call so-and-so film an early example of whatever genre. "Early" does not indicate quality. Maybe it was one of the first, but that does not mean it has notoriety. To say that something is a classic is that it is "serving as a standard of excellence : of recognized value" (according to Merriam-Webster). Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 14:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would generally expect to see "It is considered a classic" with supporting sources, rather than Wikipedia labelling it an objective "classic". - adamstom97 (talk) 14:36, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Supporting sources justify using the term without adding the "it is considered a" descriptor. Classic, in this use, has a definitive meaning that would apply with brevity. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:39, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But it is still just the opinion of of those sources, it isn't a genre or similar label that is objective. - adamstom97 (talk) 14:42, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the viewpoint, and this is a good discussion of the use of the term on Wikipedia. I would think that the bare descriptor is also widely used for novels as well as films, and so further Wikiprojects should be alerted if a change is to be made, and maybe an RfC instead of a brief discussion here would clarify. As with all things on Wikipedia, some exceptions are both allowed and encouraged (which could apply to some works and not others). Randy Kryn (talk) 15:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Randy Kryn Where could an RfC discussion take place? Dornwald (talk) 20:49, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Probably not needed, as it looks like I may be on a one-editor raft. It just seems an obvious word for some films, per WP:BLUESKY, but if it can't be applied to Wizard of Oz without being cited or couched in "some critics say"... Randy Kryn (talk) 03:14, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its not an appropriate word to use in wikivoice anymore than describing a film as garbage tier, dope, legendary, or totally sick would be. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, you can't call a film a "classic". You can quote a reviewer who thinks it's a classic in the reception section with attribution, per
WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. This is a core policy and can't be overridden by local consensus. If people try to do so, let me know, and I'll block them. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:29, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
I would expect to see phrases like "considered a classic". Similar to Tom Brady, which states "widely regarded as the greatest quarterback of all time", as opposed to outright making the claim (which, I would disagree with personally, as I consider Joe Montana to be the greatest). That being said, I wouldn't preemptively announce an intention to block someone for using particular verbiage - which could easily be seen as a good faith edit - after voicing an opinion on the topic, potentially rendering the admin to be involved. However, that is neither here nor there regarding the discussion at hand. Useight (talk) 03:52, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This needs to be made clear to people somehow. A lot of people think the word "classic" is different than say the word "good" and if you change it they don't understand that at all. There are examples all over wikipedia. I would say more than half of the people i talked to about this think "classic" is just an objective descriptor. Dornwald (talk) 05:57, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the word 'classic' is very different than the word good. NinjaRobotPirate may ban me for linking this, but see Classic book which shows that the subject and wording is often a "thing". Randy Kryn (talk) 06:10, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"A classic is a book accepted as being exemplary or particularly noteworthy."
Nothing is ever 100% "accepted" by literally everyone and even if it were you can't prove that (you'd have to talk to every single person or critic on the planet).
"What makes a book "classic" is a concern that has occurred to various authors"
All of this just proves my point that you can't state it as an objective fact. Dornwald (talk) 12:59, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The words "classic" and "good" are not synonyms. A person can (though doesn't have to), exit a movie theater and say, "That was a good movie" without also believing that same movie to be a classic movie. However, they are both subjective adjectives, making it preferable to word it carefully. That doesn't mean we can't use the word classic (or other subjective terms). For example, Robert Wadlow says, "His great size". The word great is subjective and it's not couched in carefully crafted words or cited by a source. We don't want to devolve into pedantry. If you want to change the wording on articles referring to various films as classic and/or add sources that refer to said movie as a classic, I don't suspect anyone is going to stop you. Useight (talk) 14:22, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Of course they stop me, that's why i started this discussion. "His great size" refers to an objective fact (him being taller than other people). Dornwald (talk) 14:39, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Being the objectively taller doesn't not inherently and objectively make it great. Perhaps I only consider twelve feet tall to be great size. As far as being previously stopped, I assume you're referring to this edit, which got undone because you made the change during the discussion about it on Talk:It's a Wonderful Life. It's best to leave the article untouched until the discussion runs its course. Useight (talk) 15:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Someone else told me to just change it in the discussion, instead of talking about it so... Dornwald (talk) 15:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I think we need to focus on the specific issue at hand because it is awfully vague to talk about the label of "classic" in isolation. It was about It's a Wonderful Life and the use of "classic" there. It seems like it was this edit. "Classic" is used elsewhere in the article body, and I don't know if that is being contested too. But in the "Remakes" sentence, I don't think we need to use "classic" there; it could just be "original" or not even have an adjective at all since "film" obviously refers to the topic. It seems like the other uses of "classic" elsewhere in the article body have sufficient enough context. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 15:22, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please, this is not about It's a Wonderful Life, it's about the use of the word in general. Dornwald (talk) 15:33, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not as simple as "the use of the word in general". We know we can use the word, but it completely depends on the context and the other words around it. Do you have a problem with the word "classic" being used elsewhere in that film article? It's used five other times. Do you have any issue with any of these five uses? Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 17:30, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually no, i don't. I find "it became a classic" semi-ok (because it must refer to the way the perception of the movie changed, given that the movie itself didn't change. the problem of verifiability remains though. but it doesn't sound like praise to me). Dornwald (talk) 20:01, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with treating "classic" as a BLUESKY situation is that while the sky is blue is as objective a thing as you can determine, what a "classic film" even means is subjective, as this very conversation illustrates. (Some will take it to mean it's good, some will mean it's stood the test of time; others will call some of the examples above influential films but not necessarily classic.) It's also worth pointing out who is calling it classic; film critics are a major component of critical reception, but they're not the be-all and end-all, and there's demographic pitfalls (I'm sure there are some who don't consider Gone with the Wind a "classic" because of its message and racial politics.) If a film really is universally considered a classic... there shouldn't be any issue finding a plethora of quality sources that will say so. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing is ever "universally" considered anything. 8 billion people will never 100% agree on anything, and even if they did there's no way of proving it. Dornwald (talk) 17:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please note the difference between denotation and connotation. The connotation of "universal" means "very widely", not "literally every". Wikipedia is about
verifiability, not truth. David Fuchs is saying that if there is, indeed, a wide span of people who consider a movie to be a classic, then there would exist some reliable sources stating as such. And, in the event that such sources exist, then we can easily proceed noting that the movie is, in fact, considered to be a classic and provide said source. Please note that the text "considered to be a classic" and other similar phrases do not imply that it is considered to be a classic by everyone and the reader should not infer as such. Useight (talk) 17:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
"considered to be a classic" is fine by me. Dornwald (talk) 18:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oversectioning

There is a problem with a lot of articles of recent films having the exact same defined order of section and subsection headings, which is not community-endorsed. That particular defined order is due to certain editors persistently going around and applying such changes. This has led other editors to incorrectly assume that this is the standard and that we need to follow that very specific structure every time.

The order should depend on the content available for that topic, and I have noticed a lot of skinny "Release" sections that are separate from any box office content, and

MOS:OVERSECTION says, "Very short sections and subsections clutter an article with headings and inhibit the flow of the prose." For most films, this means that just the film's release date is covered in one section, and the box office figures are covered in another section. Where the coverage is minimal, it is completely possible and reasonable to have that coverage together in a fuller section. Claiming that the separation is "always" done elsewhere is not a reason in itself. I encourage editors to structure articles based on the topic's content and not on a fake standard. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 14:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

Soundtracks and track listings on film pages

For film pages, I think it is

MOS:FILMMUSIC is a little confusing for me as it says that track listings for prerecorded songs can be made but that film scores cannot. Yes, I understand the difference but still believe track listings and information boxes are COAT as they should be presented in a separate page if they are notable and do not contribute anything of benefit to the film page. I searched and found a few discussions about this but wondering if there is a discussion that found consensus for the "current" MOS or if anyone feels this should be re-visited. No issues either way but would like clarification for future editing. CNMall41 (talk) 19:47, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

If I understand correctly, if a soundtrack is not notable for its own article and is instead covered in the film article, you don't think there should be an infobox or a track listing as part of that coverage?
I feel like infobox details are consistent whether or not the soundtrack is notable enough to stand alone. As for soundtracks' track listings, I always thought that it was more appropriate than scores' track listings because the tracks could be links to existing songs or a variety of musicians (whereas a score usually has one composer). So for including that, I see it as about linkability. The soundtrack has to get enough reliably-sourced coverage about it for the soundtrack section (presumably including the infobox and track listing) to have its own article. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 20:00, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comment. I do NOT think an infobox or track listing should be included in film articles as it does not do anything beneficial for the film, only the soundtrack. What it does do is clutter up the film page (especially when an infobox winds up next to another section such a "reception" because the soundtrack section is so small). We have pages where there is one line saying that the soundtrack exists, then the infobox and track listing.
This is where I get confused on the MOS which states, for film scores, that "noteworthy tracks from the film score can be identified and discussed in prose." Even with prerecorded music not all of the tracks are noteworthy. So believe it would be better to cover in prose if there is anything. Otherwise it is nothing more than an indiscriminate list that does not add value to the page about the film, only value to the soundtrack (which again, should probably have its own page if notable - if not, the extra details I would consider COAT). Hope that helps to clarify where my brain is melting. --CNMall41 (talk) 20:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If a soundtrack pretty much gets no coverage in reliable sources, there could be a case for not bothering with a "Soundtrack" section at all. We want to include content that is verifiable and not indiscriminate. Obviously if there is a lot of coverage, there can be a standalone article with all the elements there. The challenge lies in soundtracks that have gotten some light coverage. As for identifying tracks, prerecorded music tends to mean preexisting notable songs by notable musicians, which is why I mentioned "linkability". For a score, a composer is usually the only key person and can be named and linked in one sentence, and the names of the tracks for such a score are rarely linked, unlike prerecorded songs. Happy to see what other editors think of this. Do you have any examples of articles that shouldn't have "Soundtrack" sections and articles that should have them but without an infobox or track listing? Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 20:35, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your explanation says we are on the same page. I believe the COAT information be handled by WEIGHT as well. Here is a good example of one that was added and I removed. You can see it is one line, the track listing, and the infobox. I can putting a line saying it exists and naming any noteworthy tracks (with reliable sources of course), but you can at least see what I mean by clutter. For transparency, that link is one that an editor disputed on my talk page and I have notified them of this discussion. I will look for some that I think are good with prose and do not need infoboxes and add them here later. --CNMall41 (talk) 20:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the meantime, I will say I don't really do much with "Soundtrack" sections. One time I recall adding it is at About Last Night (2014 film) § Soundtrack, where I put it at the end of the article body (as relatively unimportant) and has links to the songs and musicians. The placement makes it less intrusive and still provides that "linkability". I only included the infobox as a standard practice, though the paragraph covers these same details too. Not sure if other editors think that there is still value in that track listing with the blue links, as I've never been one to care about films' soundtracks, and open to discussing that as one of the examples. As for Yuva (2024 film), the infobox does look bloated on its own with that level of detail, but the track listing does not strike me as problematic, especially with just three. If the rest of the article was more fleshed out, the listing would to me seem to be just a small part of it all. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 21:08, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. That brings up another question. Should we cite Apple Music or other commercial websites for the track listings?--CNMall41 (talk) 21:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, as far as I know, that's fine for basic information. If there is a non-commercial database that is more suitable, that's probably even better. (I don't know what one would be, though.) Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 22:18, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ooru Peru Bhairavakona is a good example of what I feel would be appropriate per WEIGHT. It gives a brief description of the soundtrack and even mentions a few of the tracks (I am assuming they were worthy of mention). Here is a version of that page with the infobox, track listing, and cover.--CNMall41 (talk) 03:17, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Kranti (2023 film) is one I just came across that is an example of what it should NOT look like. Outside the fact nothing is sourced, the track listing and infobox takes up the majority of the page.--CNMall41 (talk) 09:09, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I feel we should only have tracklists and album infoboxes for film soundtracks that are truly notable enough to have their own pages — and then the tracklists and infoboxes should go in that article and nowhere else. If it isn't notable enough for its own page, we don't need these things weighing down the main film/TV/game/whatever pages. They're just cruft. Popcornfud (talk) 23:44, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is what I have felt. Trying to add the information into a film page for a soundtrack that isn't (or may not be) notable is coatracking. Either it is notable for its own page which is what infoboxes were created for, or we give a brief overview in prose. --CNMall41 (talk) 01:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]