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Guys, I found some recent updates regarding this article (although it is still primary source).
Samuda (or Semoeda) Allegedly was once the capital of Pemboewan during the reign of Djaja Ngagara. however, the government only runs for One Month.
Ujung Pandaran is suspected to have been part of Pemboewan during Raden Moeda's government. The separation of Pandaran from Pemboewan and its integration into the Kewedanan Sampit is still being debated.
There is a piece of land in the northern part of Seruyan (now part of Melaw Regency, West Kalimantan Province) which is suspected to have been part of Pemboewan at the beginning of the tenure of Kjai Ngabei Djaja-negara.
I have updated the regional map file, and this time the map is my own creation.
~Thank You ꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 22:23, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Fazoffic: Probably you can imagine how eager we are to see the citation of the primary source you mention, especially if we really are supposed to give you any response here. Thank you. –Austronesier (talk) 09:02, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
[citation needed]. Otherwise, my primary source says that Pemboewan was a district in what is today Merauke. Juxlos (talk) 13:16, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you're starting to think weird about this. well, at least I gave an update. It's up to you how you want to respond. ~Thank you ꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 14:01, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Haha, I can't believe time has gone by so fast, and this discussion reminds me of how novice I used to be. ▪︎Fazoffic( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 09:50, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is an AfD for this article ongoing, but it is difficult for contributors who do not know Indonesian to evaluate the notability and reliability of its sources since they are all non English. Help would be appreciated. small jarstc 18:04, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Verification for Ragnar Oratmangoen article
The Wikipedia article for Ragnar Oratmangoen claims that he is a Muslim of Indonesian origin, referencing a source written in Indonesian, so I attempted to add Oratmangoen to the "Dutch Muslims" category.
However, another Wikipedian undid my revision because I had no English sources claiming that Oratmangoen is a Muslim. Could an Indonesian-speaking person look at the source given in Oratmangoen's article and confirm whether he is a Muslim or not? If he is, please add him to the "Dutch Muslims" category and mention that there are Indonesian-language sources to support this in the edit summary. M89565c (talk) 18:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion after reading the article he probably is Muslim, but this sports site seems like somewhat a poor quality news source and it would be nice to get something a bit more solid. You know, like ones that verify facts with a follow-up rather than speculating. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's kind of difficult. Indonesian source (even reputable news source) all referring to his social media account in which he said things that only moslem usually says (such as Alhamdulillah and Eid Mubarak, Taqabbalallahu Minna Wa Minkum). So.. it's still kind of speculating but more of educated guess. Ckfasdf (talk) 15:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, unfortunately there is a large market of Indonesian news sources that are not very rigorous and when it comes to celebrity topics they are often the only easy-to-find source. Still problematic in terms of making assertions on wikipedia though. Dan Carkner (talk) 15:19, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you both for your help. M89565c (talk) 17:23, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
English translation of Ejaan yang disempurnakan
There's discussion regarding English translation of Ejaan yang disempurnakan on
Talk:Perfected Spelling (Indonesian)#Enhanced, Perfected, Improved?. Looking forward to your input. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The discussion is actually with an earlier post from a never visit again editor some time back, four and half years ago...
The first reference that I encounter in a dictionary - (definitely not a google check) -
States and uses Updated and improved spelling - I see no evidence to see why there is in any use in utilizing perfected or revised, unless I might be missing something in some way. JarrahTree 11:17, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yea.. It was from discussion 4 years ago, but for quite sometime EYD was translated in WP as "Enhanced Spelling" until few weeks ago, where @Bebasnama decide to replace it. And makes me think about it. Ckfasdf (talk) 16:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, I dont do google, I have and use hard copies of books and dictionaries and perfected is not used. As a native speaker in english, and a very very poor user of Indonesian, I thinkthe notion of 'perfected' is wrong, by implication and inherent understanding of the usage of the word in english. But then that's one opinion. I am disappointed others have not offered their opnion. too often these discussions do not benefit from just two editors, the more the merrier... JarrahTree 03:58, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A Google search is good in order to find out if a term/title etc. has some prevalence. We can scrutinze the search results and differentiate between significant usage in qualitiy sources and random findings in lesser sources. That said, I can see qualitiy sources in Ckfasdf's list. I could add Jim Sneddon's The Indonesian Language: Its History and Role in Modern Society, UNSW Press.
But then, we should do same for alternative translation efforts like "Enhanced spelling" etc.
Personally, I think we need to go one step back. Have you noticed that almost all sources mention the Indonesian term first, and then offer a translation for it? This means, that the primary term actually is Ejaan yang disempurnakan or its acronym EYD. I know, we have
WP:USEENGLISH
, but if something is usually referred to by its non-English name in common English parlance, then the non-English name is the common name (like, has anyone of you ever used anything else but Pusat Bahasa or Badan Bahasa?).
And @JT, don't feel disappointed. It's much more frustrating to combat utter fuckwittery in underwatched/undercurated ethnicity-related pages :) @Ckfasdf is a gem for being one of the few to support me when they see what's going on. –Austronesier (talk) 09:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, I appreciate both Ckfasdf and Austronesier's comments, and have no problem with which we way we go... JarrahTree 09:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just my opinion and I don't have a strong feeling on which way it should go on Wikipedia, but I took a few years of Indonesian language courses in the West and do not recall ever hearing Perfected Spelling in any course, although maybe in a textbook it was printed somewhere. After that however in books and articles it was the most common translation I came across for EYD. To me it's a unique but acceptable literal translation that is commonly used but I'm not fussed if the group feels otherwise. In writing Wiki articles I do sometimes find it awkward to spell out either Perfected Spelling:
EYD: or Van Ophuijsen Spelling System: in the intro when offering alternate spellings, and sometimes I feel "pre-1948 spelling" or "pre-independence spelling" or other time-based ways are clearer for the casual reader, but those have their flaws too. Dan Carkner (talk) 22:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Thank you for comment @Austronesier, @JT, @Dan Carkner. IMO, further discussion should take place in
Talk:Perfected Spelling (Indonesian)#Enhanced, Perfected, Improved?. Looking forward to your input there. Ckfasdf (talk) 09:05, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Provincial flags and why they should be reinstated.
I think flags such as provincial ones should be reinstated. Reason being they are legally exist and legit (albeit its a little tricky to cite the specific laws). Flags would also not overflow the Infobox as they have its own separate section that occupies the slot next to the Coat of Arms. I surfed the wikipedia a little bit and found that Provinces of France, Prefectures of Japan, and States of the United States, etc. have their flags displayed on the infobox. Not sure why would we be the odd's one out in this case.
Hence I will repeat my self by reiterating what I previously said before:
I see no reason why we shouldn't add flags as well, as it is informative as it is harmless. And as for Flags are just CoA with a rectangle cloth with coloured background... well pretty much sums up most of the world's State/Provincial/City flags. Or if its too cluttered I disagree as a flag would only take one space and that space is already made available right next to the CoA meaning it will not make the Infobox any bigger. From my understanding of the consensus it is supposed to be temporary, as it is nearing 3 years since it was first made I think the topic should be reopened and flags should be reinstated (at least the ones we can confirm of its existence, accurate)
As usual I look forward to hear everyone's thoughts on this. EvoSwatch (talk) 05:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The issue with provincial flags was "Verifiability". New provinces like in province in Papua, don't have this issue as their logo regulation also includes information on provincial flag and its background color. But for older provinces, the problem still the same. IMO, based on Evoswatch info above, The next question is whether we can accept provincial flags shown in governor's office as reference to resolve "verifiability" issue. Ckfasdf (talk) 09:53, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I personally believe so, being hoisted and placed in the Governor's office would make it being used under official capacity. Its certainly tricky and its not the best source but its the best we got until those regulations surfaced. EvoSwatch (talk) 05:56, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think that section should be improved. However, I myself don't know what the improved guidelines would look like. We can maybe try gathering ideas here.
On second mention, Western names generally only use surname (
MOS:SURNAME
). For Indonesian names, that's usually not always the case. I checked AP Stylebook, it only has guidelines for Arabic, Chinese, Korean, Portuguese, Russian, and Spanish names, there's no guidelines for Indonesian names.
A journalist on this tweet (that Twitter thread is worth to read by the way) claim to have made a style guide for Indonesian name. But sadly that guidelines is not publicly available (tweet). (Someone can probably ask her?) Hddty (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Enhanced Spelling of the Indonesian Language
Unfortunately the article about EYD has been moved to
Talk:Enhanced_Spelling_of_the_Indonesian_Language#Enhanced,_Perfected,_Improved?. As it has been moved several times this year I'm not clear on what the procedure is to address this. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:33, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The sort-of-consensus for "Perfected Spelling" fell victim to an innocent technical move request ("Perfected Spelling (Indonesian)" formally violates our disambiguation rules), which resulted in Xth page move within a few month. I can't blame the admin who restored the long-standing title for the sake of stability.
The way to go now is
WP:RM#CM
. Be equipped with good sources for your suggested title and all potential alternatives, ideally with metrics. Try e.g. "Perfected spelling"+"Indonesian" etc. in Google Scholar. You will find that "Enhanced Spelling"+"Indonesian" superficially wins, but only in the last 5 years or so, when Indonesian graduate students started to be required to publish English papers and have found "Enhanced Spelling" in WP as the English term for EYD. A typical case of WP-induced prevalence, which is a more subtle form of citogenesis.
But if you prune for high-quality sources from Indonesian and international scholars, things might look different. Anton Moeliono and Harimurti Kridalaksana used "Improved spelling", Jim Sneddon "Perfected spelling", Husen Abas "Revised orthography", and so on. I will support whatever comes out from a thorough survey that should be done before the actual move request. –Austronesier (talk) 18:35, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Will try to do my homework on this matter. If it ends up staying where it is now, it won't be the end of the world, but I do think it should be an informed decision. Dan Carkner (talk) 18:47, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Credibility bot
As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to
WP:CREDBOT. Thanks! Harej (talk) 17:36, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Total Wikipedia language pageviews from Indonesia
Source. Not sure whether this has been done somewhere, but I curious so I did it myself, copied from my Excel. The first table is sum of second table, where the number is rounded, so the first table's number may be a little bit not presice.
Last update for 2023. Hddty (talk) 03:54, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Help rebuilding the article Salakanagara (a mythical kingdom in West Java)
That article was fairly well fleshed out. The only problem is that it had poor sources and as a result described as facts things that are (mostly) a 17th-century reconstruction of what must have happened sixteen centuries ago. It also included theories that are, hmm, let’s say "optimistic" - such as having the Egypt-based savant Ptolemy travelling in person to Java (at a time where going from Egypt to India was already a long and dangerous voyage, let alone pushing to the West Indies).
I violently cut it down to a fairly short stub with basically a single scholarly source that says (essentially) that the kingdom is a myth. (I might have lost some valuable stuff in the process within all the cruft.) A Google Scholar search for "Salakanagara" seems to find some more literature on the subject but most sources are in Bahasa Indonesia (which I cannot read and online translators do not seem to work well). TigraanClick here for my talk page ("private" contact) 11:59, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Running from October 1 to 31, 2023, WikiProject Women in Green (WiG) is hosting a Good Article (GA) edit-a-thon event with the theme Around the World in 31 Days! All experience levels welcome. Never worked on a GA project before? We'll teach you how to get started. Or maybe you're an old hand at GAs – we'd love to have you involved! Participants are invited to work on nominating and/or reviewing GA submissions related to women and women's works (e.g., books, films) during the event period. We hope to collectively cover article subjects from at least 31 countries (or broader international articles) by month's end. GA resources and one-on-one support will be provided by experienced GA editors, and participants will have the opportunity to earn a special WiG barnstar for their efforts.
I don't know the first thing about Indonesian history, so hoping an experienced editor who does can take a look at something. A mixture of accounts and IPs (possibly one person? unclear) have made a bunch of edits to the Bersiap article, apparently incensed by the inclusion of a source from one particular scholar. I do not know anything about the validity of the objection (regardless of the scholar's reputation, it seems to me it's just being used to source the fact that the Bersiap is known by different names in different parts of Indonesia), and their manner of addressing it has involved only deleting half of reference templates at a time and repeatedly reverting.
The page is now semi-protected, but the discussion continues on the talk page. This person/people's rather chaotic approach continues, including logging out of accounts halfway through discussion threads and using very uncivil language. Hoping someone can weigh in on the substance of the issue, so we can then focus on handling the disruptive behaviour aspect. Thanks in advance! AntiDionysius (talk) 16:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have some experience with these sources and have edited this article in the past, I will try and take a look thanks. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:20, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK I can see now that it's (apparently) the same editor I came across before who wants only one perspective to be represented in the article. That's not appropriate about a historical topic with different viewpoints on it but I'll have to come back to it later when I have more time to dig into sources. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:39, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Dutch East Indies people categories
Hi folks,
I'm trying to figure out what went on here and who initiated it but I admit I'm not good at figuring out where to see the history of speedy category moves or what discussion took place after it's been closed.
Category:Dutch people of the Dutch East Indies was apparently speedy moved to Category:Dutch expatriates in the Dutch East Indies which strikes me as worse. Were all (European-born) Dutch people expatriates there? But it was part of their own territory wasn't it? And how about Dutch people born and living in the Indies, are they now part of this category?
Perhaps there are not enough articles to be fussing about this but it strikes me there are different overlapping concepts: ethnically "Dutch" people in the Indies (may include Indos, may be born in Europe or Asia or South Africa etc), Dutch citizens in the Indies (may include Indos and later others who applied, excluding German and other citizens living and working equally as Europeans in Indies), and people with European status in the Indies (may include those non Dutch citizens, is perhaps the most omnipresent and important legal status for someone as compared to the others).