Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 67

It seems at the very least X and 64 should be merged into one article. --Torsodog^Talk 21:46, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

There's not exactly a great deal of quality flash game articles to compare notes with, so should the number of plays logged at numerous websites be mentioned in the reception section or not? FPA World 2 is listed as the fifth most played flash game of 2008 under the Mochi ads scheme according to this source, which seems a lot more relevant, particularly as the vast majority of flash games seem to use Mochi. Opinions please? Someoneanother 15:30, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Anyone? Someoneanother 16:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Listing a statistic like that makes sense. Super Columbine Massacre RPG! listed the number of downloads and Final Fantasy XI listed subscription and active users as measures of reception. So long as the source is credible, then go for it. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 22:58, 11 March 2009 (UTC))

Sorry, I should be more specific. The problem with FPA is that these figures would come from the flash game sites themselves, which might not prove as stable, might disappear altogether etc. I will look for usage figures on secondary sources rather than from providers, but if they're not available I'm not sure whether it would be a good idea. Someoneanother 19:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, so long as an accessdate parameter is used, it should be ok; though citations to dead links are generally frowned upon. A more stable, secondary source would be a safer idea. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC))

Images of Japanese boxart will be used as alternate covers for VG articles when there are covers for US releases which are used as main images. These images of Japanese covers will be remained to show its origins, but will be considered alternate covers.

Using Japanese boxarts as alternate covers in addition to the English boxarts has more meaning for me. Sure album articles may have alternate covers (like Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned and We Started Nothing), but I care. You can still continue to use the English boxarts.

I find alternate covers for myself comparing with the English boxarts I find in VG articles (like Mega Man X8, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Heavenly Sword, Luminous Arc, and Sonic and the Black Knight; it would have more meaning having alternate covers...).

Could we at least keep temporary Japanese boxart as alternate covers on VG articles?

I care, because it adds more meaning for me.

We apologise for any inconvenience.

SolanaRanger (talk) 02:51, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, you're really not going to get people onside by delivering a proposal for fairly radical change as an ultimatum. -- Sabre (talk) 00:27, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia rules don't allow multiple box covers anyway, unless the images are free, which isn't true 99% of the time for notable video games. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Question, but what about cases like Soulcalibur II? I've always felt they looked kinda silly with the multiple console covers shown that way.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

With cases like SCII it really should just be one image with the caption explaining they all feature the unique character and explaining who the others are. In practice, there would be epic lame edit wars over which platform to feature alone. But you're right, it does look stupid. And to Solana, we have to abide by

WP:NFCC. As such, alternate box art is a no-no in all but a few cases (you could argue Okami, for example, but that's still prolly a losing battle.) --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs ^(talk

) 02:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

It seems counterintuitive to use Japanese covers to the English Wikipedia. I mean, it's fine to add them in special cases (such as with the butt-ugly cover of Ico), but overall the English cover should be used, since it's non-free use of the image.--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 02:24, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Also the Okami argument wouldn't work here. The only reason that we have the second boxart is because there was critical commentary due to the inadvertant addition of the IGN watermark and that Capcom responed to it. In the vast majority of cases there is no critical commentary regarding the original boxart. --76.66.184.14 (talk) 06:13, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Even then, the "Japanese" cover for Ico was also used for the European release. bridies (talk) 20:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

A script could feasibly added to Wikipedia that would allow users to "flip" through the multiple boxarts while only displaying one boxart at a time. Users with JavaScript disabled in their browsers would see all images at once.

talk

) 02:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

That's not the problem though. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 22:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

nonfree images RFC

Speaking of NFCC, has anyone noticed the ongoing RFC about bots resizing images? I know most of our images are low res, but some (such as those on Pong) are above the .1 megapixel mark being discussed. It may be worth weighing in on the discussion or later updating our templates to be able to direct the bots to skip over images. —Ost (talk) 15:06, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I noticed this was created recently..and it seems like game guide content at best. Weapons are a big part of Hitman, but I'm not so sure an article here is suitable. Even if the page was cleaned up, just talking about the weapons in general would be better covered on the Hitman series page (if one exists). Thoughts? RobJ1981 (talk) 19:40, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Definitely not. --MASEM (t) 19:41, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah we had this come up before with a list of RE4 weapons. Nominate for ze AfD!--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:03, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I am attempting to merge the Guitar Hero : On Tour games into a single series article (with a second list for the soundtracks); this was determine to be an appropriate action as, at least with the first sequel, there's not a lot of information about the development of the game beyond a few sentences, and the reception from typical review sources basically built on the first game's reception; we know the third title in the series also has the same type of gameplay and expect no variation in this.

I am looking for advise on a structuring aspect. My current draft is

Also, even though I'm pretty sure about my own answer to this, what would people think of multiple covers from the series on the same page?

There's also an option of putting the soundtracks on this page too, since they aren't long and cannot expand faster, then this would be like List of Rock Band Track Packs and redirect targets would make sense. --MASEM (t) 18:04, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Your draft looks like a step in the right direction. You may want to take a look at

Silicon Dreams trilogy and Nintendogs

for other ideas. I think just redirecting to the page without specifying a subsection will be fine.

As far as the cover are concerned, they look almost identical except for the character featured. So there doesn't look like there's much need for multiple covers. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 18:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC))

This is the wrong direction. Leave the On Tour articles separate, they're analogous to albums. Keep the set list and reception together, since they are immeasurably tied together given that gameplay is already a given. -

Did you mean sections instead of articles? I think having a series article is better in this case than individual articles.

talk

) 22:25, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

What's the policy on citing an interview published in a not-reliable source? Specifically I want to use this interview with Kenta Cho (aka ABA Games) in his article; its Cho's comments I want to cite, not the interviewer's commentary. Is it the same as citing self-published material by the subject (i.e. acceptable as long as its not overly self-serving)? Or not? bridies (talk) 18:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, in the past this was covered as "

WP:SPS". –xeno (talk

) 18:42, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I have seen this become an issue at FACs for the record, so you might prepare for that (with them falling back on the argument "how can we verify that was what was actually said?"). You know how stubborn some of those guys get.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 18:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, this was my concern. The interview was conducted by email so in theory it could be faked. However I've no reason not to trust it as it's consistent with the tone of his other interviews (aside from the notion of someone faking the interview being a bit far-fetched). I'm not planning on taking it to FA, I will probably try for GA though. bridies (talk) 18:51, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Just keep in mind how critical the factoid you're pulling from the interview is to the article and do a google search to see if you can find a replacement interview (using the same key words stated by the interviewee). IF the factoid is the crux of a development section, definitely search for a possible replacement. --MASEM (t) 19:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

It's an article about a one-man games developer and the interview will used to mention what games inspired him most, so it should be ok, I think. bridies (talk) 19:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I had the issue come up before. One of the key elements is whether the person being interviewed is themselves notable. FE: Anything said by Akira Toriyama pertaining to what he is considered an expert on is notable even if it's from an unreliable site, it still notable because he said it. You can always verify any statement by contacting the interviewee. They would know if they said it or not.じんない 21:58, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

This has bugged me for quite some time but currently, the game boy Tetris game is under the handheld disambig. But that seems a bit of a vague misnomer because there are several handheld Tetris games of various shapes and sizes, and the one in the article is only about, well, that particular game and why it was important in direct relation to the Game Boy. If memory serves in the past User:A Link to the Past was the only one heavily pushing this front.

Is there any real compelling reason for it not to be under Tetris (Game Boy) in the long run?

I fully agree and always thought ALTTP's reasoning was silly then. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 00:19, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm an outsider here, but to be honest if I'd come across that article I'd have thought the same thing. To me it's clear that it should be at "Tetris (Game Boy)". Loganberry (Talk) 00:28, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Mind you, the article itself has precious little about the game's impact - the "Reception" section consists of one sentence, and the "Development" section is entirely empty - so hopefully someone knowledgeable can plug that particular gap. Loganberry (Talk) 00:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Move it IAmTheCoinMan (talk) 06:00, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree. This article should be "(Game Boy)", and there should probably be another article at "(handheld game)", which covers the more general set of handheld Tetris games, including the GB version. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:23, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I was wrong about titling this article (handheld game), though not because the disambig's use in any article is wrong, but because the article is about only one of many handheld versions. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 20:41, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I noticed that the redirect on this article has been undone, contrary to the AFD result back in September. I am not sure as what to do here as I am not well-versed in System Shock. MuZemike 21:42, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Just changed it to a redirect to the main game's article. The character isn't notable enough by itself and any information would be better covered in the parent article anyway.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:53, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Just curious- I have a general idea of what

Never really used it for much beyond getting pics approved for the commons... I guess if people actually knew about it they could use it to bitch and complain or get in touch with us... --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs ^(talk) 23:35, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

What if we contacted video game companies/developers for more than image permission; like fact checking or other information? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:14, 20 March 2009 (UTC))

I do OTRS work. It is really a way for people to communicate with wikimedia. I mostly do work on vandalism and permissions queues. (For example, an inexpereinced user may select the contact wikipedia link on the left and find a wa to send us an email saying article X has been vandalised). I go to that article, fix it and send them a form letter back. The main use though is for permissions. Lets say somebody uploads an image and claims they own the license. We get them to email us from a reliable email address confirming they do own the image then we can tag the image with the OTRS ticket number. I do not see how this at all would be useful for this project. Chrislk02 ^{Chris Kreider} 14:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:52, 20 March 2009 (UTC))

I'm not sure you could use input received via OTRS for anything; verifiability issues and whatnot. --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:40, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I think the following article need to be created

Paper Mario (Series) 3 games so far, be like mario kart series and mario party series articles and other series articles, i know there was an article previous but something happened to it. Either way i think its only fair that the trilogy as a whole gets a seperate article.

Maybe also: Mario & Luigi (Series).

More series information can be found here:

IAmTheCoinMan (talk) 15:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

It looks like

Mario role-playing games. --Torsodog^Talk

15:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that Mario RPG article should be split into two, one can't really go into detail in an article like that (like have linear reception and sales, etc.).IAmTheCoinMan (talk) 13:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you guys, but having to deal with an anon on Rufus (Street Fighter) who's insisting the subject can't be notable enough for discussion and additionally insists "actors don't need references", citing other articles such as Indiana Jones and a bunch of other sub-GA-class articles. As for the notability issue, I told him up front I contested the tag and the article was still being worked on, and that if he felt that the article didn't satisfy notability, he should just nominate it for AfD (his main argument being that the sources "don't count", even though there's more dev and reception info for him than a majority of the series' characters). That went nowhere.

The discussion's on the talk page if anyone wants to take a look. :\--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi guys, I don't know if you already talked about this here or already tried. But if don't what do you think about asking permission to use screenshots, fan arts, cosplays, promotional pictures from products (action figures, video game console and son on). You guys may ask why I don't try. Actually I did, but I only got answer from Nintendo. A copied pre-made letter; envelope, letter pt1, letter pt2. I think they didn't take me seriously. But I think if some of you guys try too maybe they start thinking it's not a prank and grant us a permission. If somebody will try don't forget mentioning Ubisoft. It will be gret for us gamers to use these pics without restriction. Don't you think? Mizunoryu 大熊猫❤小熊猫 (talk) 02:25, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I doubt other companies would be willing to give permission such has this to sites like Wikipedia. Well, it would not be hard to try to see if this works out. --SkyWalker (talk) 02:41, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, it would be good for them. We are promoting their games anyway. I have some adresses and e-mails here if somebdoy want too try. BTW, I got a reply from Arc System Works, but it didn't answer me anymore =/Mizunoryu 大熊猫❤小熊猫 (talk) 02:50, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Exactly, Mizunoryu. Why would video game companies be apprehensive about wikipedia posting screenshots? They get free mass publicity, and frankly I cant see a company pursuing a lawsuit against someone promoting company interests without profit. In reality, you could probably post any screenshot you like and Nintendo wouldn't care. It would be interesting to find out what kind of privileges game news sites like IGN and Gamespot have that allows them to publish screenshots, with watermarks no less. -- Noj r (talk) 03:47, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, I would imagine some companies would be more willing to offer such images for free use than others - Atlus comes to mind. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 04:03, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

IGN and GameSpot just put watermarks on their perfectly choreographed images to stop us getting our hands on them... -- Sabre (talk) 11:09, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, Wikipedia uses all images under either free license (where available) or

Please take a look at the

I have a quick question related to image use in articles. Where do editors find boxart photos to upload? I've seen at least one tagged that it was taken from Amazon, but I didn't if this was the common practice or if there were better resources to use. —Ost (talk) 17:56, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes the developers release them (these then get taken by the retailers), sometimes the media release high res versions (GameSpot UK sometimes does high-res versions of PAL artwork). If all else fails, someone on the internet has always scanned it - giant bomb, mobygames, google images, they're always available somewhere. -- Sabre (talk) 18:02, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I managed to contact Luke Smith once about possibly getting free images for use of Bungie games, but I don't think he understood me, and contacting other Bungie employees hasn't worked that well either (probably inundated with fan spam). While I understand why people would think people would love to offer free shots for publicity, remember that they are making those shots available for any purpose (even commercial). --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:06, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the good locations to look. What is the protocol for uploading an image from these sites? Do you just have to tag as where it came from (along with fair use rational) or do you have to explicitly ask to use the picture? —Ost (talk) 18:30, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Half the time I don't bother saying where I got it from if I found it in some obsure place that doesn't deserve any mention (usually through google images approach), I just put down that it is copyrighted by and obtainable from the developer. You don't need to ask for permission, just make sure it has a fair use rationale and is low resolution and it qualifies as fair use. Just try to avoid uploading anything that has an alien watermark on it. Mobygames in particular is bad for this, although sometimes the watermarks can be reversed if no alternate image can be found. -- Sabre (talk) 18:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I just photoshop them out :P --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:51, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Adding to this subject I contacted Greg Horn awhile back regarding permission and received an email response that he had no problem whatsoever as long as he was credited as the artist. Just been sitting on the email all this time though because I've never been sure where to send it to. Along the same lines though I've been meaning to contact Namco on the subject of the Soulcalibur artwork and see where that goes as well.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:18, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Emails granting permissions should be forwarded to mailto:[email protected]. Note that the permission must be for free use of the artwork. Greg Horn will not be able to grant you free use on characters he does not own, it must be something that he owns entirely. You should also make it clear that free use would enable derivative use of his artwork. For more information, see

n

16:24, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Let me try clearing some points. Here on Wiki-en we can use images under fair-use. But we cannot use plenty of them on the same article. Fan arts and cosplay pictures are considered derivate works. Cosplay pictures are being deleted from Commons because of this. I'm pretty sure the companies would grant us permission if they are sure this is not a fanatism but a serious work. They don't have anything to loose, just gain. IGN, GamSpot watermak their images because there are some people who claim the work for themselves and there are other websites that do this too. But we can see the same images in plent websites with or without watermark. It is a bull after all. Don't even try to ask permission for use cover and artworks, this would help piracy. They are not gonna grant permission and woul not take the rest of the permission seriously. Nobody would like to see somebody selling a copied game with a true cover or a toy etc. Lets us focus only on screenshots, fan arts, cosplays and promotional pictures/videos. And remember a second-party or third-party cannot grant permissions. I made a little list with some companies and their emails/adresses. I added Marvel and DC because the video game companies act as third-parties, they can't grant permissions, unless Marvel and DC themselves. Feel free to add some more and sorry for my poor english. Mizunoryu 大熊猫❤小熊猫 (talk) 01:00, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, any type of fan-created art based on a copyright shouldn't be used to illustrate articles, and official art should be used except on very rare occasions. Putting things like that in articles asserts notability where there is none, even if the creators of the IP allow them to be used. They could also be innacurate or confusing. However, in the case of screenshots where the picture is of the actual game, it's worth it to gain permission because otherwise fair use restrictions prohibit their use.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 05:24, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Um... just out of curiosity, what's the purpose of posting this exhaustive list of addresses below? What's wrong with the current policies and the way the images are currently being used? — KieferSkunk (talk) — 05:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm under the impression most copyright holders are happy with the status-quo of us leaning on fair use and them not having an official stance on anything. If this was de.wiki (German) where we couldn't use fair use then I would be quite happy to more aggressively pursue permissions, but right now I'm not seeing an explicit benefit other than saying, "Oh look, we got permission, yay". Nifboy (talk) 07:00, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I have had success with gaining free use images from developers. In my case these can be seen in Ballistics (video game) as well as the associated commons category. I contacted Bo Andersson at GRIN, and Ernest Yale at Triotech Amusement to get screenshots and photos released with a free use license. There is an explicit benefit, by uploading images to commons grants free-use only projects access to them, and the images can be used in tangential articles - File:Ballistics Arcade - IAAPA.jpg is used in zh-yue:機鋪 and de:Arcade-Spiel.

There are a few things you have to be wary of though. It's extremely unlikely that a major publisher would offer you anything free-use in regards to their biggest mascots. If you ask for a free-use image of Mario, you're only going to be ignored, because the image and likeness is worth so much to them. I'm surprised that Ubisoft screenshots are still free-use, even though I've argued for keeping the template, I have been suspicious of its accuracy. You also have to bear in mind who actually owns the IPs, not just who develops them. Ensemble is listed below, but even prior to their dissolution, did they really own any of their work? Or was it always Microsoft? I think it is worth contacting companies to try and obtain free-use imagery, especially for abandonware titles, where their commercial worth is minimal. -

I don't really know much about the various copyright policies we have, but I do wonder whether it isn't worth trying to get some kind of permission in between no-permission-but-fair-use and "free use". Having permission to put copyrighted images within specific articles might temper some of the paranoia around the use of fair-use images. Though perhaps not worth the hassle to obtain them, I dunno. bridies (talk) 17:26, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that fan arts like these: Jenet from Garou Mark of The Wolves and KoF series), [http://xs137.xs.to/xs137/09113/charmy_16225.png (Charmy the bee from Sonic the Hedehog's series), for example would be greatly useful in some articles. And we could do our own fan arts too. The purpose was to help who is interesting on asking permission. Fair use is limited. You cannot put a lot of images under it in any article. Did you try doing this? And I'm pretty sure everybody would like to use and upload any images freely, even you guys. That’s right! We can illustrate all characters with their screenshots too. The game nowadays have such a beautiful cg movies and cutscenes. It will be far than useful. Yes! We must not ask permission for the third-parties. Ensemble is an example for this. The permission for Ensemble’s games now must be asked for Microsfot. I think Wikipdia tends to be more restrictive with the years. Getting those permissions can spare us of trouble. I myself had lots of images under fair use deleted here. Mizunoryu 大熊猫❤小熊猫 (talk) 18:30, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Fan art should never be used; it is a derivative work and thus twice burdened by copyright; just because the artist puts it out for appropriate "free" use, it technically can never be free unless the copyright controller chooses that. --MASEM (t) 18:34, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, fan art can be used, but only when the article states something about the fan art itself rather than the original work. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

While permission to use things like screenshots does allow for, say, more than one or two screenshots to be used to illustrate a page, it's still not a license for a gallery of stuff like trivial screenshots and fan art. While you're free to use that stuff in

Wikia (not an encyclopedia), it won't fly here except in specific cases. And no, it still doesn't matter if Wikipedians make the art.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK}

) 21:12, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

But it does have the benefit of allowing their use for less specific demonstrative purposes where a non-free pic might not be, or where the free is just as worthwhile (and thus is 'better' for WP's sake). ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 22:12, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

No, it's still as bad. A derivative work of someone else's copyright will never be free. It is better to use the material from the original copyright owner (screenshots) than a drawing of that presuming that there is absolutely no free alternative and there must be a picture for demonstration. --MASEM (t) 22:32, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Free images should always be gathered and used when possible, as there are no limits on their use, and we are supposed to be a free Encyclopedia--unfortunately certain topics require them. See Super Columbine Massacre RPG! for an example—due to licensing, all the images save the fair use would not be allowed, but I think having the free images aids the article considerably (and some of those were gathered by emailing copyright holders. It's hard, but it works). On OTRS, if anyone sends something to OTRS, ping me with identifying information (the image name, subject, sender, et al) and I can log on to OTRS< pluck out the ID and properly tag the image. --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs ^(talk) 00:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi, you may already be aware of it, but just in case : GSC Game World now allows usermade screenshots under GFDL. Though I do not have any information about who managed this and how.

I may add that I could not agree more with David Fuchs. For us on fr.wikipedia, Free Use or Fair Use makes all the difference, as it is double or nothing. We are a far smaller VG project, with a dozen people or so. Yet we try to illustrate articles the best we can (to give an example I worked on, Star Wing, or any other in Wikipédia:Sélection/Jeu vidéo), also because reviewers for FAC are way more demanding on fr: than here, as far as I can tell. Ubisoft permission is a really great thing for us, with articles such as Beyond Good & Evil, Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time or Assassin's Creed: Altaïr's Chronicles. The ″explicit benefit" of this is also free content. Commons is as an important project as Wikipedia, in my opinion. Jean-Frédéric (talk) 23:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Guys, what I intended to say is, game companies would never allow free use of their artworks, so we could get license to use our own fan arts. I'm pretty sure there are people in all Wikimedia project who can make such greater works than the original ones. This would be very good. Don't you think? And some of you guys say bad things about cosplayers, but in other projects that there isn't fair use this is one of the few things they can use to illustrate an article. As our pal said above Free images should always be gathered and used when possible, as there are no limits on their use, and we are supposed to be a free Encyclopedia--unfortunately certain topics require them. Like our german and russian frieds helped the project why we cannot? Reminding Wiki-ru also has fair use like Wiki-en and yet he got the permission. Actually Jean, permission is great for everybody. Even here they are using and uploading screenshots from Ubisoft and I'm pretty sure they would also do the same with other pemission some people may got. Mizunoryu 大熊猫❤小熊猫 (talk) 06:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

List of addresses

Capcom

Capcom U.S.A., Inc. Capcom Entertainment, Inc. 800 Concar Drive, Suite 300 San Mateo, CA 94402-2649

Koei

KOEI Corporation 1818 Gilbreth Road, Suite 235 Burlingame, CA 94010

Namco

NAMCO HOMETEK INC. P.O. Box 5309 Novato, CA 94948-5309

SNK

SNK NEOGEO USA CONSUMER CORP. PO Box 1140 Wall, NJ 07719-1140

Arc System Works

[email protected]

EA Games

Electronic Arts Ltda, R. Fidêncio Ramos, 195 4° andar, Conjs 41, 43 ,45, São Paulo 04551-010 Brazil Registered Number: 02.184.024/0001-73

Raven

[email protected]

Atlus

Atlus U.S.A., Inc. 199 Technology Driv

Hudson soft

[email protected]

Monolith soft

[email protected]

SCEA

919 & 989 East Hillsdale Boulevard Foster City CA, 94404

Square Enix

Square Enix Limited, PO BOX 60257, London, EC2P 2BU

Tecmo

[email protected]

Tecmo, Inc. 21213-B Hawthorne Boulevard, #5553, Torrance, CA 90503 U.S.A.

Konami

[email protected]

Konami Digital Entertainment, Inc. 2381 Rosecrans Avenue, Suite 200, El Segundo, CA 90245

Midway

Midway Games Inc. Corporate Headquarters 2704 West Roscoe Street Chicago, IL 60618

Marvel Comics

Marvel Entertainment, Inc. 417 5th Avenue New York, NY 10016

DC Comics

[email protected]

Nintendo

Nintendo Of America Inc., P.O. Box 957, Redmond, WA 98073-0957 - U.S.A.

Activision

Activision, Incorporated 3100, Ocean Park Boulevard Santa Monica, California 90405

Blizzard

Blizzard Entertainment P.O. Box 18979 Irvine, CA 92623

Ensemble Studios

Corporate Mailing Address: Ensemble Studios/Microsoft 10440 N. Central Expressway Suite 1600 Dallas, TX 75231

[email protected]

Sega

SEGA America, 350 Rhode Island Street, Suite 400,San Francisco, CA 94103,U.S.A;

Does this page fall under our scope? MrKIA11 (talk) 14:19, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

A band for just having a song in a video game? No, definitely not. --MASEM (t) 14:46, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I'd equate it to Ian McKellen voicing Gandalf in the Lord of the Ring games. It's such a minimal amount of content in the overall article that it doesn't adequately fall under our scope. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 20:35, 21 March 2009 (UTC))

No, unless you're talking about a band that specifies in video game songs like The Advantage, then that's OK. MuZemike 23:40, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

After the discussion at this MFD, WikiProject Phoenix Wright has been moved to be a task force of this project. I'm sure the creator would appreciate anyone lending a hand to integrate the task force into this project. Cheers,--Aervanath (talk) 05:12, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Resident Evil 5#PC version .28or lack thereof.29 and reliable sources and comment. Regards, –xeno (talk) 17:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

For unannounced games, i'd say it qualifies as a

WP:REDFLAG.じんない

00:36, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

• Guidelin'd :
  Wikipedia:VG/RS#Retailers. Feel free to tweak or expand as desired. –xeno (talk
  ) 14:21, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

• A somewhat related discussion regarding retailers and plot details is ongoing here: Talk:Mass Effect 2#Amazon, comments are invited. –xeno (talk) 15:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I've been seeing this editor a lot lately for some time and am noticing recent activity that has been less than helpful. For starters, a random redirect (which I undid), and now an obscure page move. I have brought up this matter here since it is video game-related. Thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 03:05, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

One seems to be a half-finished merge, the other is a proper rename. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 03:07, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually both were completely valid.

WP:AGF, and maybe try to figure out what is happening before you try to "call him out" in front of everybody. This is pretty-much BS. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja

03:12, 23 March 2009 (UTC) (different Johnny)

I don't see a problem with boldly redirecting an unreferenced stub consisting entirely of in-game information. bridies (talk) 03:16, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Lord Sesshomaru has been having edit wars with me for quite a while with other articles (particularly with List of Dragon Ball characters, in which I had to explain to him that the characters in the series don't have consistent romanized names in Japan, though he should've known better than anyone). If he had issues with me, I wish he would brought it up on my talk page instead of calling me out in front of everyone here. This is immature on his part. Jonny2x4 (talk) 03:27, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm actually not seeing what he did terribly wrong here either as everyone's said.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:35, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Sesshomaru removed the complaint I made of his behavior on his talk page with no attempt to address me back. At least I always keep all the complaints I get on my talk pages, whether they're constructive criticism or obvious flamebaits. Seems he can dish it, but he can't take it. Oh well, I guess its decided this is a petty non-issue. Jonny2x4 (talk) 23:26, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Heads up:

I can see where they are coming from and to be honest, these templates probably wouldn't fly with such generic info on a FA or FL today.じんない 00:14, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

But really, what can you say about a video game image? "Here's a screenshot/boxart/logo/etc. of this game. The image is used to identify the game in its article. It doesn't allow people to make illegal copies of the game." 95% of all the images used in video game articles are going to have the same rationales anyway, no matter if they're written manually or given a macro. Why not make the process less tedious? And besides, if a rationale needs to be adjusted, we can always go and edit it afterward - the template is subst'd, so you can just tweak the text. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 01:15, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Let's not deviate discussion from the TfD. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 01:32, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

There is a discussion at Talk:Mortal Kombat#Complete rewrite about rewriting the page. However, there is a little argument concerning trivia sections. It would be good to have an experienced entering in the discussion. Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 23:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

An anon user added http://www.kofxii.com/ as an external link in The King of Fighters XII. I cannot find anything about SNK in the forum. Is it an official forum? Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 23:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't look official at all. Most of the news posts credit FightersGeneration outright...ultimately it looks like a collection of information as it comes out is all.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 23:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

There is an on-going slow edit war on

If there's no reliable sourcing for it, then it is quite blatant it should not be included. Doubly so for the fact it's being included in the wrong portion of the article, but that one's an editorial issue. --Izno (talk) 23:08, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Fan mods are not official products; whether they have the reliable coverage to have their own article or at least a mention in another part is a different issue. --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs ^(talk) 14:42, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

The proponents of the mod are claiming that it received some sort of license from Microsoft. However, even the sources given for this don't make it clear whether that license entails a formal contract or merely an email saying "don't worry, we won't sue for this". I think there is possibly an argument for fanmade products to be considered official (see Final Doom), but I don't think this mod in particular is a strong contender. Ham Pastrami (talk) 21:56, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I just looked at the history; he's the only editor who has re-added this, over the past 3 months. I've been reverted twice, AMiB twice, Oceanrise 4 or 5 times, as well as an IP 2 or 3 times and Someguy1221 a time or two in that time span when

WP:WAR, or both. :/ --Izno (talk

) 03:14, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I added a comment on the articles' talk page about dealing with the game. As for dealing with the editor, it appears

WP:AN3. —Ost (talk

) 20:53, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Struck comment. I've been recently corrected that more than 3 reverts are needed within 24 hours and I only see three max.—Ost (talk) 18:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

As Max Payne 3 was announced this morning, I think it might be a good idea to determine when a sequel game article should be created. (A new IP game is a bit different since there's usually no place to move information to).

For myself, as with the current Max Payne 3 article, an announcement of the game is not sufficient to create the sequel article (redirects and discussion in a series article, yes, however). I'm thinking that our boundary should be that two of the three sections of: Plot/Setting, Gameplay, and Development; can be given a reasonable paragraph of discussion, the rest to be filled in over time. For that to happen, you usually need more than just the announcement but also details such as a "first look", developer's comments in interviews, or the like. Anything less than that can be easily summarized in any series/previous game article within a paragraph (and thus not overload it) until more details are fleshed out. --MASEM (t) 14:33, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree completely. Wikipedia is meant to be an encyclopedia, not an up-to-date news site. While I can see how the two can have some overlap, a line needs to be drawn.

However, I worry such a rule is basically unenforceable. Articles not tagged with our project banner often go unnoticed for some time, especially when they are orphaned. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:04, 23 March 2009 (UTC))

I also agree. However, until some kind of guideline is produced which gives clear guidance on when exactly new game stubs should be created, the imprecise merge/AFD/leave well enough alone situation we have will continue. There is far too much ambulance-chasing and playing journo, but that's down to enthusiasm and a lack of consensus (or even attempt at consensus) on when these things should have their own articles. Someoneanother 15:09, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't really care to try and police articles for which the notability (or lack thereof) will be apparent in the current year. Two+ years without any real info, okay, merge it. No sources/announcement, okay, redirect it. But articles like this are, in my mind, extremely low priority targets for doing anything to. Nifboy (talk) 16:14, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that on confirmation of the game's existence, a stub article should be created. If it's found to be vaporware and is part of a series, it should be merged.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 19:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

A year ago I would have agreed, but since then I've found that such articles are magnets for edits from anons. Though most are well-meaning, the flood of editors can make the articles down right unmanageable because of style and sourcing issues. Keeping them in parent articles normally helps keep things better under control. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 20:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC))

I think sequel articles seem to be made far too hastily. I was thinking the exact same thing about MP3 and the same has happened with

Talk | Contribs

13:17, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

My gut feeling says no, but I noticed someone add OnLive as a platform to BioShock today. Thoughts? –xeno (talk) 04:09, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a platform to me, both physical and digital distribution. Since it has not been released, information regarding games for it probably shouldn't be added to articles yet though. — Levi van Tine (t – c) 07:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not a platform, it's not an OS. Games still run on a central server, so the platform is probably Windows. -

n

13:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Yea, it's more of a platform for a platform. –xeno (talk) 13:15, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I disagree (again- sorry xeno!). Even if the games do ultimately run on Windows, OnLive would make them available on other OSes. If you see

Talk | Contribs

13:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

No worries, I brought it here to see what everyone else thought and my position isn't firm on this; I'm willing to be swayed. –xeno (talk) 13:34, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, but I can run Windows software on Linux using

n

13:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Seems like an apt time to throw Zeebo into the discussion as well. - X201 (talk) 13:35, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

@hahnch - Yes, but you (the user) have to have an installation of Windows in one sense or another. OnLive doesn't require you to buy a Windows licence in order to use the service. I know a "platform" isn't about what you have to have licences for and all that, but you see what I mean? NB: I'm not really familiar with Citrix so I may of misuderstood what it does! :) ChimpanzeeUK -

Talk | Contribs

14:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

It's being pushed as a "console" isn't it? One can buy a box and use it with a TV... sounds like a console to me... At any rate I don't think we should be adding it to articles until it's actually released. bridies (talk) 14:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a console to me, after all it is being marketed as MicroConsole, bearing in mind that OnLive is the name of a distribution system and a console. Salavat (talk) 17:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Can an admin remove the protection of this redirect page:

Interesting idea. I've never really felt there was much wrong with the review template (aside from overpopulating it with scores), but now that you mention it leading with the aggregate scores sounds more inline with how try to write most other reception content. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 22:51, 20 March 2009 (UTC))

I've always written them as the lead in the prose, but it begs the question: if you mention it first, why does it matter if it's at the top of the template? --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs ^(talk) 23:49, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I never mention Metacritic and GameRanking scores outside of the review table, and normally discourage it when I comment on GANs, FACs, and PRs. So I think its good because it mirrors my idea of how prose should be. But that's just me.

Also, maybe it will help minimize the focus on individual scores and cut down on overpopulating. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 20:47, 21 March 2009 (UTC))

But you could also argue that Metacritic and other aggregate scores aren't as good as single reviews that describe their scoring in detail, since there could be some overly high and overly low scores that affect the rating.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 03:51, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

True, but it's the summary style. You start off with a high level view, then work downward later on. The whole point in Metacritic is that it mitigates the extreme scores, so those overly high and low scores don't really factor as strongly. -

n

13:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I still think these tables are ugly and unnecessary. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 03:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I hates me some Metacritic in articles. I think it's pretty misleading to refer to 3/4 stars as 75%, because it just looks different, and I really don't see a reason to homogenize the reception in this way. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 04:25, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

If e homoginize reception then they should all be the same. No X/10 and X%...everything should be the same then, otherwise we should leave it as it was originally.じんない 05:13, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Homogenizing is a different matter, though admittedly I'm in favor of it. :-p

In summary, here are the points brought up thus far.

• In favor of reordering review table
  • A more summarized format
  • Could minimize focus on individual scores and cut down on overpopulating
• Against
  • If mentioned first in prose, the order in the table doesn't matter
  • Aggregate scores aren't as good as single reviews

Since both sides of the argument have valid points, maybe a test run could help solve this. Try it out for 2–4 weeks and then evaluate it. Any thoughts? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:26, 23 March 2009 (UTC))

I've been removing direct mentions of scores in prose and moving them to the box, then making the reception section on actual reception. This seems to make sense, as it's less cluttered than "IGN gave it a 95%. 1up gave it a 90%." etc. I do think that it should be homogenized though...either you have the box or you don't. Personally I think that putting numbered reviews in there AT ALL is unnecessary. The overall Metacritic/Gamerankings score should be the only thing mentioned since it aggregates all the scores, and Wikipedia copying that would just be less accurate.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 00:29, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Another possibility: how about removing the boxes and mentioning scores only when there's actual feedback mentioned? Like "IGN's John Doe gave the game 95%, commenting on its fun gameplay. GamerSite gave it a 50%, citing that its difficulty was 'for kids'."--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 00:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

No, that wouldn't work. The reception section isn't meant to be centralised around the individual review sources (and their scores), rather around the elements of the game praised/criticised. Putting review scores into the prose could encourage people to attempt reception sections with the "IGN said this, this and this. GameSpot said this, this and this" approach, when it should be "feature x was praised, IGN said this, GameSpot said this. however, feature y was criticised, 1UP said this, while The Guardian said this." I still maintain that the scores are a good mid-point between those who don't want the scores and those who do, since they remain disconnected from the prose but still available to the reader. -- Sabre (talk) 00:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

As you'll see in the example boxout, the change has been made, courtesy to

As you may or may not know, recently Home of the Underdogs lost its server, and went down permanently. Within short order, there were two sites that sprung up to try and replace it, and just now, apparently, a third one. None of them are by the original owner or anything, so this creates a problem of just how notable these copy sites are for WP purposes. Just thought I'd give a heads up and hope maybe someone can help figure out what to do with the page, as it seems a bit messy at the moment. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 11:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I would presume if an RS mentions the other sites as attempted recreations, then they can be discussed on the HotU page (but unlikely at the present have enough to qualify for their own article). --MASEM (t) 15:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Probably at least a month. Any reviews probably want to check and make certain the site won't go belly up quickly. If the original owner of HotU is shown to be working a lot with one or more of them though then that might also change things as well.じんない 16:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

We have been arguing back and forth over the layout of the Metal Gear Series page. The guy in charge insists on ONLY discussing the plot of the games. He has the series listed according to canon plot TWICE within the same article. My argument was that the series should ALSO be discussed from the game design perspective. You can see MY Suggestion at the bottom of the discussion page here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Metal_Gear_(series)

I would like to ask for some assistance in the matter. There are 3 official documentaries that clearly label what was an original game and what was a spin-off, and it has nothing to do with plot. Even this weeks presentation by Hideo Kojima (series creater) at the GDC outlined the series evolution according to game design. I see no reason why gameplay and game design should not be included in the article about the series. Why do we need to have plot discussed twice within the same article? 63.161.203.11 (talk) 15:36, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I need help with an mmorpg, I have a sub-page on my user page. If u would like to help please vist my page an you will see it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Setokira (talk • contribs) 19:12, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we absolutely work on MMORPG articles. However, your particular project, Endless Online, has been deleted at AfD at least 4 times that I could find, the most recent being

notability. — Levi van Tine (t – c

) 07:24, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey all. I've got a GA nomination (for machinima) on hold, and the reviewer and I would appreciate an extra pair of eyes. I've self-copyedited (and spotted improvements in every paragraph), but I've been working on this article pretty much daily over the last eight weeks, so the effectiveness of that may be limited, especially in terms of spotting quirky or nonexistent sentence flow. If anyone's up for combing through ~4,600 words of prose, I'd be grateful. Thanks. — TKD::{talk} 23:11, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I've gone through the whole article and made a few changes as I saw fit. — Levi van Tine (t – c) 08:31, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

A few months back, I proposed a merge of

Feel free to post any other merge discussions that have stalled, and I'll help out by giving an honest assessment. Randomran (talk) 16:18, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried posting at

WP:N would allow, but I generally don't see compaints about this. —Ost (talk

) 18:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

How about a transwiki to Wikia? Otherwise, it should be deleted, as it's non-notable.--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 19:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd probably support deletion too. But it might be easier to get a compromise if you check in with a merge. Either way, if you stated that a stand-alone article wasn't suitable, you'd be helping things to move forward. Check in at Talk:List of Frontier Brains? Randomran (talk) 00:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

As a Pokémon article editor, I would agree with deletion. I think AfD is the best venue for this article. Artichoker^[talk] 01:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Try a merge or redirection before hitting the AFD route. MuZemike 02:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd appreciate one or two more voices at the article talk page, because I've had bad experiences with bold redirects. Randomran (talk) 07:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot guys. This had been on my list of things to do for a while. Randomran (talk) 02:25, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Please read the arguments at CFD, input is appreciated. As the page was not tagged with the project template, it has not appeared on article alerts. -

Could we get a bot to tag all our categories? --Mika1h (talk) 20:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I have noticed like for Darkstalkers that all the individual character pages have been merged into a single list with many omitted details you can see obviously present. I am a bit confused about this, why do none of these characters with their long history not get an article but say, Eddy Gordo gets one? On what basis is this decided? Tyciol (talk) 08:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Only two character articles for Darkstalkers series remain:

Felicia (Darkstalkers) and Morrigan Aensland

. Both have reception info and development info to fall back on. The remained end up taking a steady decline in both fronts, and as for a long history each character's video game backstory can really be summarized in one or two paragraphs and cover everything.

As for your second point on Eddy Gordo, there are literary sources that mention him, and a few other citable bits from google news, one that could give development information. The current article is rubbish, but it can be salvaged. If anything

Yoshimitsu (Namco) seem to be the odd ducks out even with all their appearances.--Kung Fu Man (talk

) 15:21, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Single user wikiproject, limited in scope. Should be task forcified if there is interest or deleted. –xeno (talk) 19:27, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Should probably just be nominated for deletion. No real activity here, no membership, no history. Just something someone

WP:MADEUP one day. Randomran (talk

) 19:40, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The

PlayStation project. Should the new one just redirect? MrKIA11 (talk

) 19:52, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah. Yes, redirected. –xeno (talk) 19:54, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

edit | discuss

Metroid Prime (series)

9 articles

Metroid Prime

Metroid Prime 2: Echoes

Metroid Prime 3: Corruption

Metroid Prime Hunters

Metroid Prime Pinball

Why isn't this at

Cause I'm pretty sure there was some sort of brou-haha about it. See

Wikipedia:Featured_topic_candidates/Failed_log/February_2009#Metroid_Prime for example. --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs ^(talk

) 14:46, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

It looks like the biggest gripe from that nomination was the lack of a

Metroid (series) can't be the main? — Levi van Tine (t – c

) 14:56, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I would think the whole Metroid series (including the Prime articles) would be eligible for Good Topic or Featured Topic status;

Metroid II, Super Metroid, Metroid Fusion, and Metroid: Zero Mission are all GAs. The only non-GA I can see right now is Samus Aran, which is B-Class and bordering on GA status. MuZemike

15:53, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

edit | discuss

Metroid (series)

13 articles

Metroid

Metroid II: Return of Samus

Super Metroid

Metroid Fusion

Metroid: Zero Mission

Metroid Prime

Metroid Prime 2: Echoes

Metroid Prime 3: Corruption

Metroid Prime Hunters

Metroid Prime Pinball

Samus Aran

List of Metroid media

Note that there is no

I have to be honest, I don't entirely see the need for a Metroid Prime series article when the individual articles suffice for FA apparently, but that's just me. As for Samus, I'd be wary of listing her there: that article needs a lot more work still, and there are a ton of sources still to cite for reception at least.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 16:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I'de say that you can stike Samus off the list altogethor, actually. This is about Metroid the series, not its charecters. It's reasonable. As for difficuties, if you decide to keep it, I'm sure a peer review would suffice. ResMar 17:01, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, looking at the log it's obvious that you're going to need the "Metroid Prime (Series)" article. ResMar 17:04, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm almost done with

talk

) 17:18, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey, I'm not rushing you. Take all the time you need! ResMar 19:41, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, this topic is not eligible. In two days, the criteria for featured topics will change to require 33% of featured articles per topic (instead of 25% currently). Nominations obviously take longer than two days so this topic as is will not pass; we either need one more featured article among these 11 or 12 articles, or one more featured article among the 13 Metroid articles (the 13th is List of Metroid media). Megata Sanshiro (talk) 11:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I believe Rst20xx was floating the idea around of requiring "List of X titles" be the lead for topics that are only a collection of games, and anything that was a series topic needed supplements beyond the game articles. So you may want to double check what articles the scope should encompass. I don't know when or if this will be implemented, but best to clarify before a nomination is started. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:45, 30 March 2009 (UTC))

I agree that a

Metroid Prime (series) article is unnecessary, since the Prime games comprise about half of the entire series. With more FA's it can easily be a FT anyway.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK}

) 20:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Jump in with anything on third-person shooters that you can reference. Literally anything. Randomran (talk) 02:33, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, 3PS isn't a "critical" genre, for lack of a better term. I mean it's always the FPS who win game of the year :P I'll check through LexisNexis and my school databases this week and see if I can scrounge anything up. --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs ^(talk) 02:50, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I normally try to read whatever video game magazine and book I can get my hands on, but I don't recall the genre getting much mention. I think it's been drowned out by multi-genre Grand Theft Auto clones that also use a third person perspective. You might be able to find some info about 3PS by looking for the overlap. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:54, 30 March 2009 (UTC))

Selected donwload stats are available for some of the XNA community sales. I dunno how many of these even have articles, and some of the more popular ones may not be there, but it could be useful to someone. --MASEM (t) 18:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello, everyone. I've taken two photographs; one is of a

As long as the photograph is obviously of the controller and not meant to capture and focus on the logo, you're good. (There's also a possibility that the N logo, which is just text and an oval shape, may not be copyrightable, but logos on pictures of products are not going to be a problem.) --MASEM (t) 21:00, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I've uploaded the photographs to Commons and placed them within their articles. Just for kicks, here are the pictures' links:

sesuPRIME ^{talk • contributions}

22:49, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

If you're still unsure about the size, you can always ask at Copyright violations board.じんない 22:52, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Help! I'm working on

Comments on the talk page. — Levi van Tine (t – c) 06:44, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Off and on last year, I worked extensively on Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver, and managed to bring it up to GA status. I'd like to improve it further and get it to FA status, and was hoping an editor could review the article and provide insight on how to do so. Peer reviews haven't been helpful and I was advised that this place could help. The Clawed One (talk) 15:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Right off the bat, you will probably have problems with too many non-free images. I think you could get away with two at most, not including the game's box cover. Also, add a third paragraph to the lead that discusses the game's reception. --Torsodog^Talk 16:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Alright. I was prepared for the images thing, and already had thought it over regarding which to keep, so that's alright. As for the intro, check, I'll get on it. The Clawed One (talk) 17:09, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The story section under plot may be too long. I'd see about someone copyediting it first before you remove information. Remove citations in the lead that are backed up later (I can see a few that are). Also strengthen the fair-use policy on all images you plan to keep.じんない 17:17, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd say, with regards to fair-use, that that last image is the weakest of the lot; all it does is illustrate the relatively simple concept of pushing blocks. It's a bit out of place in the reception section, anyway. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 17:22, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Jinnai, what do you mean by "remove citations from the lead that are backed up later"? As for copyedit and free-use rationale, my knowledge of either subject extends no further than knowing of this existence. I have 0 experience with free-use image rationale and don't even understand really what copyedit it. The Clawed One (talk) 17:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Reference 2 seems to have some of the statements used later on. Also the sales information in the lead should also be mentioned in the "Release" section. Possibly if you can (and should be able to) find if it made it to any of the "top" lists for month/year. As for fair-use check out the article i recently got to GA Popotan for the type of fair-use rationale I used for images.じんない 18:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I still don't understand what you're saying with citations. As for the other stuff, check, I'll get on it. The Clawed One (talk) 18:19, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I added a handful of distinctions the game has earned, and also did some editing to the rationale for the two images, though I'm not sure if what I added to the rationale helps. The Clawed One (talk) 18:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

One example:

The game was well received by critics and highly praised for its eerie atmosphere and a deeply intriguing gothic story. The graphics in particular earned exceptional praise, and Soul Reaver was called "among the best that have ever been on the Playstation"[2]

That one has a citation after it. First remove the quotation from the lead and add that to the reception section. Then remove the remove the citation from it. The lead should generally not have any information not contained in the body and a direct quote about the reception not in the body is defiantly not. The only exceptions here are for spinoff titles that are so unnotable they would have 1-2 sentances on them and couldn't fit in another section. The other one would be stuff dealing with special notes. After doing that, remove the citation because the information is backed up later. The lead should just summarize and rarely introduce new elements not revealed later with the exceptions mentioned above. As these are the sections often posted on portals or main page these sections are wanting to be as clear as possible from actual references.じんない 19:03, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Oooookay, I understand now. As for copyedit, I tried to apply some of it to the Setting section and trimmed off a bit. The Clawed One (talk) 23:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Edited the citations bit as well. The Clawed One (talk) 23:10, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

So what else needs to be done now? I'm going to edit the rest of the article for copyedit later today. The Clawed One (talk) 16:09, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I went through and added some small but importance formatting bits. Also, looking through the reception section, there were a couple of quotes I couldn't quite find in their sources - specifically "all but the most experienced gamers" and "one of the best games of the year". I could be just missing them though. Anyways, the article is getting close. I would suggest getting someone outside of the project to do a copy edit if possible. I will make your FAC a go a lot more smoothly! --Torsodog^Talk 16:33, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I looked for the questions, yup seems I misquoted ><. Thanks for your help, where would you suggest I go to find someone to help with copyedit? The Clawed One (talk) 17:05, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Found the quote about "experienced gamers", AllGame uses different tabs for the game, and I simply linked the source to the wrong one. The Clawed One (talk) 17:11, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Sony has revealed the number of PlayStation 2 consoles shipped worldwide. It is 136 million, as of 31 December 2008. Quote: "Since launching in 2000, PlayStation 2 has sold more than 136 million sell-in units worldwide", sell-in means sold to retailers. Numbers from this press release. Rhonin the wizard (talk) 16:02, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm currently conducting a GA review of First-person shooter, and feel that the infobox might be better with a typical screenshot instead of the 'asteroids' logo. I think the article top looks a little untidy at present, with the infobox and then a screenshot.

I realise the template is used on quite a few articles; I wonder if the template could conditionally display an image/caption if one is specified, but otherwise remain as-is, to avoid problems with all those articles (until they could be updated with screenshots).

I'm not criticising the navigation sections; I've looked into the issue, and found that there are other examples of articles that use infobox more for navigation that information (FA example

If there's no big objection, I might try to modify that template myself, as described - ie to allow the option to show an image instead of the logo, if such an image is specified.

Looking forward to some input, --  Chzz  ►  16:42, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree would be nice if a screen shot could be embedded in the info/nav box. bridies (talk) 17:06, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Let me get this straight: you want the genre navbox to form the top of the article, where someone can stipulate an image with caption on a by-article basis. If no image is used, then it defaults to the icon. Thus integrating both the first screenshot and the navbox? -- Sabre (talk) 17:19, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Pretty much; I'll knock up a demo and get back to you. --  Chzz  ►  17:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

If you can do it so the icon is only there when nothing else, all the better, otherwise we can just lose it anyhow; I'm not fond of 'fluff' images spammed on article pages anyhow... --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs ^(talk) 19:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Demo - I'd rather that the infobox for

--  Chzz  ►  19:48, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I think

User:SharkD is the creator of the current templates. bridies (talk

) 20:10, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks; I've asked himher to look in; also asked on template talk. I think it warrants a decent discussion - might sort out a lot of crap, but a few thousand articles to consider (if we're gonna look at the whole VG template issue) --  Chzz  ►  21:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, the template is more of a sidebar (a type of navbox) rather than an infobox, kind of like the ones found

talk

) 00:34, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Neither of those examples has a picture (and nor is one appropriate for the topics), but for video game genres, I think pictures are very appropriate - indeed several of the articles already have a pic at the top. And then there's the cartoon pic in the navigation box - that's what I don't like. I'm GAing First-person shooter, and it'll meet GA, but probably would fail GA for this reason alone; the top looks cluttered with a pic and a box, and the 'asteriods' logo is irrelevant to the article content. Question: which looks better, the 'demo' or the live? If it's better the 'other way', then we need to find a way to do it. I could easily just 'hack' it, as in the demo, but I'm trying to address the bigger picture.

I'd really appreciate some more input on this from others; I don't know if that will happen here or not? I don't want to waste time over it if others think it's not important. --  Chzz  ►  21:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I happen to think that the genre stuff should be at the bottom, below the external links; whether there's the image there or not, I really don't care. We could always make {{Infobox Video game genre}}, although what exactly you would put in it, I know not (examples/similar genres?) --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs ^(talk) 21:27, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm opposed to an infobox because I don't really think there's any objective facts to put in it. Anything subjective (say "first game made in this genre") would be unworkable because critics never agree on anything like that. My preference would be the format Chzz has in his userpage. I don't have a particular problem with the current set-up, but I do think what Chzz has is an aesthetic improvement. That said, my experience of the sidebar/navbox is limited to genre articles so I don't really know what the implications are outside of those articles. bridies (talk) 22:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

talk

) 07:23, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

"Some (Fighting game, Shoot 'em up and First person shooters - the one I'm working on) have a picture before the infobox." I don't think screenshots should appear before the sidebar. I think they should appear in the sections they are directly related to instead of the lead. This would be more in line with the terms of

talk

) 20:14, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Uh, the images used in shoot 'em up and FPS are free images. With regards to fighting game, Street Fighter is discussed prominently in the lead, regarding how it popularised the genre, standardised and defined its conventions, and the use of the image in that context is fair use (the same would also be true of Doom in FPS, but as it happens we used a free clone). I still feel a screenshot should go in the lead, unless there's no room for one and I'm going to point to 4X, the only genre FA as important precedent. bridies (talk) 20:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

The image was only moved to the top a month ago, well past its promotion to FA status. Regardless, I feel that having a screenshot (or photograph) in the lead and not in an infobox looks unprofessional. But you are free to disagree.

talk

) 02:17, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The template was created well after its promotion to FA status. Most articles such as Judaism or Islam start with an image, and have the sidebar appear afterwards. Randomran (talk) 14:41, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

"Most articles such as

talk

) 05:14, 25 March 2009 (UTC)