Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Weather

This is the talk page for discussing WikiProject Weather and anything related to its purposes and tasks.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Shortcuts WT:WEATHER WT:WPWX

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4Auto-archiving period: 30 days

Weather Project‑class

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Weather, which collaborates on weather and related subjects on Wikipedia. To participate, help improve this article or visit the project page for details. Articles Requested Project Resources Become a Member Project Talk Assessment A-Class Alerts WeatherWikipedia:WikiProject WeatherTemplate:WikiProject WeatherWeather articles Project This page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

Daily pageviews of Wikipedia:WikiProject Weather A graph should have been displayed here but graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at pageviews.wmcloud.org

I would like to announce that a new task force has been created to re-examine the status of every GA in the project. Many good articles have not been reviewed in quite a while (15+ years for some) and notability requirements have changed quite a bit over the years. The goal of this task force is to save as many articles as possible. Anyone not reviewing an article may jump in to help get it up to par if it does not meet the GA requirements. The process will start officially on February 1 and will continue until every article has been checked and either kept or delisted. The task force may be found at

• 1949 Texas hurricane (review)
• Windsor Locks, Connecticut, tornado (GAR)
• Wind shear (GAR)

One of the biggest struggles in tornado articles has been the lack of clear criteria for what can be listed on Tornadoes of XXXX articles (i.e. Tornadoes of 2024, ect.). So, I am wanting to propose some base criteria for inclusion.

1. Signficiant tornado in an event (F2–F5 or EF2–EF5 or IF2–IF5)
2. Injury or death occurred from the tornado or tornadic event
3. A tornado outbreak outside of the United States (Significant tornadoes not required)
4. Rare oddities - Addition of event is assumed to be suitable under
   fire tornadoes
   ).

• Any tornado or tornado event not qualifying under one of these criteria would not be mentioned directly on the Tornadoes of XXXX articles, however, it/they would be listed in yearly tornado list articles (US by month, Europe, Canada, Asia, ect.).

So, what does the community thing about setting this as the base criteria for Tornadoes of XXXX articles?

Discussion (Criteria proposal)

• Support as proposer. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Support We need some sort of criteria with the way we are changing up this article. The only thing I would caution against is saying any tornado outbreaks outside of the U.S.; I'm not sure I agree with that one. ChessEric 21:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  To be fair, tornado outbreaks themselves outside of the US are rare with maybe 3-4 a year. Chances are strong for it to pass the significant criteria or casualty criteria, but that covers things like unrated China tornado outbreaks (Tornadoes of 2021#July 11–13 (China)) where sometimes 6+ tornadoes occur with little to not injuries or deaths. That example had an EF2/EF3 with 9 EFUs. It passes the casualty criteria due to a death and 11 injuries, but things like that would be covered under that criteria. An outbreak is already 6 or more tornadoes from the same system. For now, I think having any non-US outbreaks would be fine since maybe only a handful in history would not pass any of the other two criteria. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:56, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Dumb me should have kept scrolling. Tornadoes of 2021#October 31 (England) is a perfect example of that criteria. 7 FUs and 1 F1. If that criteria was not in place, that outbreak would have to be excluded/removed from the article, despite being referenced by an academic published paper. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Hi, there! I'm very new here, and do not plan to make too many future edits, but I would like to offer a bit of insight. As a Chicago-area native, I felt inclined to add some more detail to the February 27–28 event, seeing as, though we have warnings at least a couple of times a year, we do not often have significant, confirmed tornado outbreaks.

  That said, I agree with most of your list, and I do appreciate seeing the tornado outbreaks outside of the US, as well.

  I do think it would be wise to add another point to the list: any sort of anomaly in storm watching is something that would be wise to include, in my opinion. February 27–28 is a perfect example: seeing 11 tornadoes touch down in one evening in Chicagoland is unheard of, even more so seeing that they hit highly populated areas north of the city, and in some towns that have never seen a tornado before. Since the outbreak consisted of mostly of EF0 and EF1 tornadoes, much of the outbreak might be considered null and excluded under your current proposal, but it's still notable. I'd imagine the same would go for another city like Minneapolis or Detroit, if they were to incur such an outbreak. I can't venture a guess what other anomalies might be, but something like this, an outbreak in a location that's normally still experiencing full-on winter at this time, is important to note. Scramblescramble (talk) 00:50, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Scramblescramble: I don’t think storm watching anomalies would qualify a storm system for inclusion unless it involved scientific research (i.e. Doppler on Wheels, ect…) Also, the outbreak would not be excluded under the proposed criteria. If only one of the (3) criteria is passed, then the entire tornadic event is included. The whole point of the Tornadoes of (Year) articles is to summarize the global impacts of tornadoes. Most tornadoes only need to have 1 or 2 sentences on that article, including strong tornadoes. The actual tornado summary is in the yearly list articles (like List of United States tornadoes from January to March 2024). For instance, in reality, the February 27-28 section you are referring to should be shrunk as only four tornadoes were actually significant. I’m not saying remove the information entirely about the weaker tornadoes, but only a brief summarized passing mention is needed for those, since the yearly list articles have the detailed summary. Basically, the events are included if they pass one of the first three criteria, with that fourth criteria point being for rare events that editors think should or may need to be included, but don’t pass one of the first three points.

  The February 8, 2024 (US) section on Tornadoes of 2024 is a good example of the criteria in use. There was an EF2, which caused an injury (so it actually passed two of the criteria at the same time). And since the storm system passed one (two) of the criteria, it is fully included, meaning the two associated EF1s also are mentioned briefly. Hopefully that explains the proposed criteria. So it isn’t removing tornadoes that don’t pass it, but rather saying if a tornado in a tornadic event passes the criteria, the event needs a mention in the yearly article. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 05:59, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Mostly support – I only disagree with having a section for any EF2. We don’t necessarily need sections for days that have one EF2 or just 3 or 4 EF0s and one short-lived EF2. Those can be exceptions to the rule. United States Man (talk) 17:24, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now if there is an EF3, it is likely worth mentioning in a section. Otherwise, we need to cut down on all these subsections because the page with get way too long and drawn out. United States Man (talk) 17:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. There were 160 EF2+ tornadoes in North America last year, and just 31 EF3+ tornadoes. Our criteria for inclusion/highlighting should be more restrictive than just "an event with a significant tornado". Penitentes (talk) 18:17, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Conditional support if it's restricted to EF3 tornadoes. North America had 129 EF2's in 2023 and 123 in 2022. Seeing as the US has their own monthly lists, I would prefer that the main yearly tornado articles make it as global as possible, therefore restricting only the most significant US tornadoes to the main list. I get why EF2 would be in the proposal, seeing as they're considered significant, but there's too many for my liking for a global yearly list. Imagine if every Category 2 hurricane would have to be listed on a global tropical cyclone list. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alt Proposal

Based on some early feedback and comments, I am doing an alt proposal for criteria for inclusion on Tornadoes of XXXX articles:

1. If an injury or death occurs from the tornado or tornadic event.
2. If an EF3–EF5 occurs (In the United States)
3. If an F2–F5 or IF2–IF5 occurs (Outside the United States)
4. If a tornado outbreak occurs outside the United States
5. Rare oddities - Addition of event is assumed to be suitable under
   fire tornadoes
   ).

• Any tornado or tornado event not qualifying under one of these criteria would not be mentioned directly on the Tornadoes of XXXX articles, however, it/they would be listed in yearly tornado list articles (US by month, Europe, Canada, Asia, ect.). Note: The tornado or tornadic event only has to pass one of these criteria for inclusion.

Alt Proposal Discussion

• Support as proposer. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Courtesy pings for people who previously commented: ChessEric, Scramblescramble, United States Man, Penitentes, Hurricanehink. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support: I think these criteria should be sufficient, although I would continue to include larger outbreaks in the US even without EF3+ tornadoes. However, in my opinion some sections are a bit too detailed, especially as recent events have not been as big in comparison.

NovemberFog (talk) 22:03, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As far as "rare oddities," should geographic, temporal, or meteorological oddities be noted? The Broome EF1 I had added is not worth mentioning for its strength, but it's technically the 3rd recorded NYS tornado in any winter month, period.

While it's interesting to see a part of the 2/28/24 this far outside of the hatched risk zone, I can see why it's not worth mentioning if nobody was injured and it lasted a minute or 2, but other storms may not be as easy to sort.

My proposal is that possibly, temporal oddities should be included, but are not criteria in itself. Or do we all agree that such info should go on the list?

The problem I'm seeing here on this page seems to be that it doesn't know if it wants to list off significant tornadoes or describe them in detail. MidnightStudios16 (talk) 17:10, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@

WP:BRD. So “temporal oddities” don’t need to be added to the direct criteria as that would just fall under that “rare oddity” criteria and idea. Based on what I just said, if I may ask, do you support the five-point criteria? The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:37, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

Yeah, I'd say it's pretty satisfactory. It seems like we're saying if a tornado is added only because it has a "rare oddity," it will require peer review on a case-by-case basis-

So, it's in agreement that the Broome, NY EF-1 was too inconsequential to list here even with said anomalies? Would a longer path, more damage, or casualties had an effect on the consensus? MidnightStudios16 (talk) 20:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure about that specific tornado as I've not really looked into it. Basically, though, anyone who adds a tornado/tornado event only because of the "rare oddity" case, it doesn't necessarily require any discussion to even occur. Based on Wikipedia policy, additions have

bold, revert, discuss guidelines) and that discussion will have one of three outcomes: Consensus to add/keep the tornado, consensus to remove/not add back the tornado (not re-added without another discussion in the future), or no consensus (which means the item is not present, but any additional reasons outside that discussion could add it back in the future without a discussion). Hopefully that explains what exactly would happen for any "rare oddities". The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:57, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

No, you've explained it perfectly; I guess I'm trying to shift more into debating whether or not it's worth listing.

Essentially TL:DR for that tornado is it was weak and short lived, but also far outside the warned area (like, it hopped PA) and the third winter NY tornado on record. Wasn't detected on radar.

I added it to the article, but was removed by @ChessEric: This happens a lot with short-lived and squall-line embedded tornadoes (note how the Grand Blanc EF2 tornado received almost no warning before touching down and the Miltonsburg EF2 tornado didn't even have a warning either), so it doesn't need to be mentioned here (it can go in the description of that tornado on the list page)

It may have been assumed that the rare oddity was "unwarned" but otherwise... I dunno. I guess I would just like some input. Feels kind of silly doing this much work for a storm that attacked a blueberry farm and then lifted but it seems noteworthy in a meteorological sense, even if a big nothing to the way of life of those around it. MidnightStudios16 (talk) 21:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As requested by @

WP:SIGCOV for inclusion in Tornadoes of 2024

. What I look at for this is to see if there are any references available beyond general news articles published during or shortly after the event and/or beyond an NWS alert, local storm report, or public information statement.

Looking at the news articles I can find on the subject, I think the Broome tornado is appropriately covered in List of United States tornadoes from January to March 2024#February 28 event. The content there covers the main points of the tornado including the track, damage, time, reason for the lack of warning, and distance from the main severe weather. A brief mention of the seasonal rarity of this tornado in New York could be added to the list it is found in (with appropriate ref), but the result would still be a single paragraph and the rarity seems to have not been enough to generate SIGCOV.

At this point for this event, I think SIGCOV would be something like a case study by the local NWS office, SPC, or in an academic sphere, or additional news coverage discussing it published more than a week after the tornado (bonus for regional or national coverage). DJ Cane _(he/him) (Talk) 23:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Appreciate the feedback. I did my best to cover all the points you mentioned, although I didn't list the reason for the zero warning. Zero warning probably due to it happening so briefly and in between radar scans. There may have been a hook echo but as @ChessEric already mentioned, it may have been a squall-line embedded tornado.

No info is given on the genesis of this tornado. I know I'm asking people who probably don't know, but I actually couldn't tell you why this went undetected for sure, or even how anyone even know this was a tornado? It was quite windy, isn't there stuff like downbursts that have confused people?

All I know is tornado genesis varies by condition, I wonder if there was an actual funnel or if it was just a swirly gust of wind. MidnightStudios16 (talk) 23:45, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will discuss the dynamics of this tornado on your talk page to avoid clutter here as I think this goes beyond the purpose of this discussion. DJ Cane _(he/him) (Talk) 23:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:44, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Proposed change: Two changes I would make are to limit the United States EF3-5 criteria only to tornado prone regions of the United States and Canada (Tornado Alley, Dixie Alley, Southern Prairies). Use the current "international" criteria for the American West and East Coast north of like South Carolina. Second, the "rare oddities" section needs to specifically reference
  WP:SIGCOV
  including a link to be less vague and point editors (especially inexperienced ones) in the right direction. I would write this as follows:

• Rare oddities: Tornadoes not meeting the above criteria may still meet Wikipedia expectations for
  fire tornadoes).— Preceding unsigned comment added by DJ Cane (talk • contribs
  )

• RfC for Ratification started – Apologies for another ping, but based on all the comments here, we have a decent consensus for these becoming the criteria (minor changes occurring). So, I have wrote them up in Wikipedia:WikiProject Weather/Tornadoes of XXXX criteria. Since we have had so many (too many to count) discussions regarding inclusion of some event, I started an RfC on the talk page so it gets more of a formal community consensus. As y'all commented here, I am providing a courtesy ping: @ChessEric, Scramblescramble, United States Man, Penitentes, Hurricanehink, NovemberFog, MidnightStudios16, DJ Cane. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree in general with the proposals above, namely in establishing some sort of guideline to make sure we get the important stuff, without being too US-biased. I think I'd like to expand on what's above. I think, as a principle, that all tornadoes are inherently notable, since they're sudden, can be unexpected, and cause a lot of localized damage. I do believe that there's a place on Wikipedia for every event. That doesn't mean it should automatically be on the yearly list. There was also discussion about rarer tornadoes, outside of the main areas affected, like New York. I believe that is where the usefulness of the lists come into play. There is a

There is currently a large tornado outbreak underway in the US, specifically Kentucky, Tennessee, Ohio, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, West Virginia, Wyoming, Montana +others. Feel free to help, as it is impossible for one person to document the entire thing. Most of it is going to happen later tonight, so information is going to rapidly come in, so by tomorrow there will be a lot more info to build on. Thanks! :D MemeGod ._. (talk) 19:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While I looked at Monsoon#Global monsoon, I noticed that all articles used in Template:Main are inconsistently named.

There is:

• North American Monsoon
• Monsoon of South Asia
• East Asian Monsoon
• Australian monsoon (note that monsoon is not capitalized in contrast two the first two)

There might be more pages about regional monsoon than just these 4 which also need to be accounted for.

Every page there is named differently. What should the preferred main article name be?

"Reposted" from Old revision of Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous) as apparently this should be the right place. NetSysFire (talk) 10:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Computer simulation#Requested move 2 April 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 01:54, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There used to be a newsletter for the tropical cyclone project. I still think it's useful to have something to let people know about what's going on. Have editorials, notices about newly improved articles, discussions, that kind of stuff. Maybe call it the Wiki Weather Weekly (and put it out however often we want). I think it could be cool to have a weather event of the week, which can highlight various types of weather. Maybe a blizzard happens one week in one part of the world, and there's a wildfire that happens over an entire month. Having some degree of newsletter across all of the projects could foster a bit of project unity and coordination. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:04, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TornadoInformation12 has proposed new criteria for

There is an RFC requesting that editors choose between one of two draft sections on Food and Health in the article on Climate change. Please take part in the RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is an RFC requested that editors choose whether or not two additional criteria should be formally added to