Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association

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List of NBA players born outside the United States

List of NBA players born outside the United States (formerly named List of foreign NBA players) strangely now lists some players born in the US. Go figure.—Bagumba (talk) 05:09, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I recall, the article used to be more focused on nationality than birthplace. The article was moved due to concerns over the term "foreign," but the actual scope of the page is still poorly defined. I do think birthplaces are a more practical focus. We certainly shouldn't be including guys like
Cote D'Ivoire years after his cup of coffee in the NBA. Zagalejo (talk) 04:01, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
People have only one birthplace, which avoids the unwieldy nationality and incorrect assumptions about which countries have
WP:LISTN, and then grouping by birthplace is an editorial content decision.—Bagumba (talk) 04:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Does the NBA still have a master list of who they consider to be "international" players? Back in the day, the book version of the Official NBA Encyclopedia listed everyone by country, but that only went up to the year 2000 or thereabouts. I doubt we'll ever see a new edition of that book. Zagalejo (talk) 18:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They seem to have press releases before each season, like this for 2023–24. Note that for notability purposes, we should go off what independent sources say, and not necessarily be a slave to the NBA wishes. —Bagumba (talk) 20:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discrepancies between Basketball-reference.com and NBA.com

WP:WAWARD) 13:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

Over a decade ago, I remember observing that NBA.com would sometimes round stats differently from basketball-reference.com. Does basketball-reference still provide year-by-year playoff stats for each player? Or do they break everything down by series now? Zagalejo (talk) 18:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
BR still has both year-by-year and series-by-series.-
WP:WAWARD) 14:31, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
In sections like "Per Game" and "Totals" there's now a "Playoffs" tab. —Bagumba (talk) 14:55, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I see. Thanks! Zagalejo (talk) 18:08, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we prefer
    WP:WAWARD) 20:32, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Regarding this diff, I think basketball-reference is correct to round down. Both NBA.com and basketball-reference have the same total number of minutes. Mathematically, the average should be 34.9444444.... I have not looked closely at these things in many years, so I don't know how common these discrepancies are. Zagalejo (talk) 03:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The User I opened this thread with seems to mostly correct these discrepancies. I think he has found thousands in his four years on WP.-
WP:WAWARD) 04:14, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
If we look at the game logs, playing time there is recorded with seconds as well. I wonder if it's a matter of one rounding to minutes and then dividing by games, and the other rounding after division, accounting for the .1 difference? The brain dead thing would just be to go w/ NBA.com, since it's their league. Otherwise, if one really wanted to be thorough (for minutes played?!?!), footnote the discrepancy. —Bagumba (talk) 05:51, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's possible that the recording of seconds is leading to discrepancies. JamesOn Curry only played a few seconds in his NBA career. NBA.com lists his MPG as 0.1, but basketball reference lists it as 0.0. In that case, NBA.com is arguably more correct. Zagalejo (talk) 12:25, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although NBA.com has a different MPG for Curry in his career line, so who knows... Zagalejo (talk) 12:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Conference finals mvp

Why can’t we just include conference finals MVP’s for Jokic, Curry, Tatum and Butler and players moving forward? I get it’s new but so it’s clutch player of the year and that’s on the wiki resumes. I feel conference finals MVPs is a significant award, especially being named after Magic and Bird, and more than likely the greats will win (like finals mvp) so it’s a relevant award I feel, plus it shows as well who won that conference if they didn’t win the finals but won conference finals mvp. 73.176.156.52 (talk) 06:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's never been a consensus to include the clutch award.—Bagumba (talk) 07:34, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Left guide (talk) 09:20, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Why does Luka have western Conference Finals MVP in his box resume but others like Jokic, Tatum, Steph, etc... don't? Again, it seems these resumes are very biased when it comes to who gets what included. Luka got like 30 and a lot aren't even necessary from his overseas days. Just saying, if we don't include for Jokic, Tatum, Steph, etc... keep it consistent and don't include for Luka. 2603:300A:1618:EC00:A0BE:6850:7D71:20C7 (talk) 13:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All players who have won Conference Finals MVP award should have their award mentioned on their resume in my opinion. Luka, Steph, Jokic, Tatum, Jimmy and Jaylen Brown. All. It's literally an award and it got mentioned many other basketball websites such as basketballreference.com. Conference Finals MVP players have their award in their resume. It should be on Wikipedia too. Mypthegoat (talk) 22:36, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And Luka's other awards or achievenmets are all legal and must be mentioned. It's players whole career resume for a reason. If you are an editor of another player you should have a right to edit that part. Mypthegoat (talk) 22:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Put another way, adding Conference Finals MVP and Clutch Award to the infobox artificially elevates them to a status of equal validity as regular season MVP, All-Star appearances, All-NBA team selections, DPOY, and the like not seen in the real world, which is a clear case of
Left guide (talk) 01:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Ay, just saying, look at Twitter and the reactions from Brown winning over Tatum. Seeing a whole lot “Tatum led series in pts Rebs and assists for Celtics but brown won” tweets. People care and pay attention to this award. It’s given right after the series win on the podium in front of the crowd and national television 2601:249:1B81:1170:875:9247:423D:562A (talk) 04:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
People on Twitter got upset about a girl that dunked Pop Tarts in ranch dressing, that doesn't make it notable.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Technically, it does make it notable. Notability is determined by society, not you. 12.178.161.66 (talk) 16:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
stuff being on Twitter doesn’t make anything inherently notable from an encyclopedic standpoint. Rikster2 (talk) 16:28, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your arguments are ludicrous. Two awards being in the same info-box does not in any way imply that they are of equal validity or equal esteem. And the conference finals MVP is not a "lower-level" award anyway. A player is rewarded for being the best player in the second biggest series of the year and leading their team to the finals. It also notifies people that the player has a finals appearance, which is no small feat. The award is a direct and objective measure of playoff success. Bagumba's argument-- "The less information in an info box, the better" is ridiculous too. Have you seen LeBron's infobox? Do you think his First Team Parade All-American selections or his McDonald's All-American MVP awards are more significant achievements than if he were to get a conference finals MVP? If the goal truly is to convey the most important information to the reader, direct indicators of playoff success should arguably be placed higher than All-Star selections and/or All-NBA selections. The conference finals award ought to be included in info-boxes, and it should go above or below MVP. The only sound argument against it is the fact that the award's title is so long, and therefore makes things a bit less clean and concise. 12.178.161.66 (talk) 06:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument that it is not a "lower-level" award is baseless. The
WP:BURDEN of proof is on you, and your various IPs.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 12:17, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Honors at various levels are not compared. Professional honors are considered as a set, college honors are considered as a set and high school honors are considered as a set. There are only about 5 high school highlights that go in the infobox list, a much higher percentage of NBA highlights do. In no case is every single honor included, otherwise for a player like LeBron you’d have an absurdly long infobox. The point of the infobox is not meant to include everythingRikster2 (talk) 12:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I gave a thorough argument why it should be considered among the highest level of awards. I understand by "baseless" you mean I need a concrete citation supporting it. The NBA's official award history page lists the awards under "latest". They also have a page dedicated to the award here. These two pages are so available, obvious, and impossible to miss that I'm sure you have seen them already. As others have said, the NBA also officially acknowledges these awards at the end of the close-out games during the celebration. They are literally named in honor of Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. It is as close to objectively being held in high-esteem as any award. Where must the awards be listed such that they can be regarded in high enough esteem to be listed in info-boxes? Does it need to be listed on the history page under the more "official" bullet points, rather than merely under "latest"? If that's the case, where is KAT's social justice award in his info-box? Why can't I find any Twyman-Stokes Teammate of the year awards in info-boxes? Where is the Hustle award? Where is the Clutch player award? I understand that I may be straw-manning you; I'm only searching for consistency.
If I'm not understanding something, let me know. I only learned about these "talk pages" last night, and you can see I don't even have a Wikipedia account. I am just an NBA fan who wants to see players rewarded for their feats and achievements, and Conference Finals MVP awards are greater feats than 80% of the stuff typically listed in info-boxes, as well as being more telling of the player's identity because it concretely indicates playoff success. One of the first things a page visitor ought to see is that the player led his team to the finals. Put it in the info-box or no, I don't care that much. But know that these citations that you seek are a bit more arbitrary than you seem to think. 12.178.161.66 (talk) 16:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean if we're being completely honest, is "Mr. Show-Me Basketball 2016" more applicable to an NBA's player career resume over Conference Finals MVP? If so, then so be it. "Mr. Georgia Basketball 2016" has more reason to be on here over Conference Finals MVP in the NBA? I don't know, y'all keep telling me there's a criteria this and criteria that but having stuff like Mr. Show-Me Basketball, Mr. Georgia, Serbian Player of the Year, etc... seems like that criteria is convenient based for sure.2603:300A:1618:EC00:159B:96F9:49AE:6EC8 (talk) 14:08, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, there are about 5 high school achievements that qualify for the infobox, state Mr basketball is one of them. There is already a significantly lower bar for NBA achievements, a reflection that the pro level achievements are more important. But the other thing that has always been the case for the basketball infobox is that “runner up” finishes and accomplishments intentionally weren’t added to the infobox. All that stuff is great for the prose, nobody is saying it’s useless. Rikster2 (talk) 16:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I respect the reasoning for sure. I also agree that not every award or feat should be listed just because it’s relevant. However, in terms of conference finals MVP, I feel it adds more value and credibility to that specific resume or player over certain other awards or feats, just my opinion. It tells a greater story in a short and concise phrase “Conference Finals MVP” - best player in the that playoff conference essentially (not always but usually). I’ll stop with this one, I respect all the choices! 2600:1008:B0C9:A678:712B:CF7:B9CF:3C0A (talk) 17:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bagumba's argument-- "The less information in an info box, the better" is ridiculous too.: It was not an "argument". It was marked "comment", and is merely a quote from a
Wikipedia guideline. —Bagumba (talk) 14:38, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
+1. 2A02:3030:619:5347:61F9:1EE6:DF54:6EF8 (talk) 15:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, the Conference Finals are significant and important series, with the NBA awarding trophies for them. The NBA recognizes these as major and important awards – there is even an award presentation at the end of the series – and Wikipedia should reflect that. H-Hurry (talk) 15:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Thinking pragmatically, I just don't think it is productive to keep pushing back on this. It's an official award that is getting a lot of attention, and I don't feel that it's fundamentally less important than the All-Star Game MVPs or something like All-Rookie Second Team. Zagalejo (talk) 18:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per reasons given above. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 20:23, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this, they do the same thing with MLB when they give the MVP of the conference championship. Just because it’s a recently added award doesn’t mean you can’t added since it really has value just like with the In Season tournament championship. Agararol81 (talk) 02:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let’s just include Conference Finals MVP for every one who’s won it. It’s on basketball reference and it’s a pretty significant award considering it’s announced right after the game in front of the national televised audience. And for the most part only the top tier players will win it as we’ve seen so far, so it’s gonna be relevant. It shows just how elite that player was in that playoff run/series. 2601:249:1B81:1170:F4C3:F71E:DADB:2B2C (talk) 18:22, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
+1. Very good summary, let‘s do it. 2A02:3030:617:53C9:19A:29F:B893:E1D4 (talk) 21:35, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Gonna be relevant" is textbook
WP:CRYSTAL.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Oppose secondary award, may be appropriate in prose. Also, majority !votes don't always win.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:50, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Look at Luka's award box and tell me whether Trofeo Costa De Sol champion is worth more or more relevant than a conference finals NBA MVP. Like let's be honest here, this wiki is hugely bias towards Luka, as you guys even included Conference Finals MVP for him before someone pointed it out and eventually it was taken out. Like who are we kidding here, EB Next Generation Tournament champion qualifies to be in a players basketball resume but not NBA Conference Finals MVP, HA. I needed a good chuckle, Trofeo Costa De Sol, EB Next Generation, etc.. Luka Stans getting wild. 2603:300A:1618:EC00:43:DA4A:D41D:10DF (talk) 14:45, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support inclusion. Yes, the awards are new(ish), so we don't have a lot of precedence to rely upon, but third-party coverage of these awards has pretty strong since their introduction and has increased in the ensuing couple of years. So, by Wikipedia standards, their notability has been demonstrated. And since these are significant awards, a player winning them is a significant career achievement, and should be in their infobox. oknazevad (talk) 15:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support inclusion third-party coverage of the award is significant. It is treated as a major award by the media. Judging by the comments of players themselves like Jaylen Brown, the players treat it as such as well. See, for example Why Jaylen Brown was surprised to win series MVP after leading Celtics to NBA Finals: ‘I don’t ever win s—‘ New York Times]--User:Namiba 16:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support inclusion. How does consensus work? There are significantly more people in favor of the award's inclusion than against at this point. Time to put the award in the info-box. Are you going to keep reverting edits until the end of time? Sullenwolf (talk) 15:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It hurts their Luka agenda, they need to include as much as they can for Luka but not the other players. It’s actually evident and noticeable how bias Wiki towards Luka 2600:1008:B211:C506:297A:F96A:A45A:7A81 (talk) 16:48, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm in favor of including the award, but this argument doesn't help anything. There is no grand conspiracy to elevate Luka. Different people work on different articles, and edits aren't monitored in a consistent manner. That's just the nature of Wikipedia. Zagalejo (talk) 23:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The more likely situation is that whatever is listed for the NBA seems to mistakenly give carte blanche for similar treatment for other leagues. And few are knowledgable enough on global basketball to perhaps remove some, which anyways might start accusations of NBA or even U.S. bias. —Bagumba (talk) 23:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    How does consensus work?: See Wikipedia:Consensus. —Bagumba (talk) 00:04, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Game 1 or game 1

I've seen it both ways (including inconsistencies within individual articles) and didn't see anything in the style guidelines. When referring to a specific playoff game in a series, should it be referred to as "Game X" or "game X", where X represents the game number? Useight (talk) 15:37, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW,
MOS:CAPS begins: Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization. At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League/Archive 22 § Capitalization of "Week" in "Week #" in Articles, they seem to have went with lowercase. —Bagumba (talk) 15:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Thanks. I guess I can get to lower-casing the upper-cased ones that I find, even though I find the upper-cased version to be more aesthetically pleasing. Useight (talk) 20:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New stats pages

Just created three new NBA career stats pages:

I started with a simple list of rankings, names, and units but I was wondering if it's possible to get a fuller table with more complete player info like the other pages in {{NBA statistical leaders}}. I tagged them with {{List to table}} accordingly. I lack the energy and inclination to work through all of the wikitable source coding since it's not something I'm super efficient at, but if anyone else is willing to take it on, it would be extremely welcomed and appreciated.

p.s. the technical fouls page can also benefit from updates since the full 20-player overview-level master list I cited is from June 2021 and some of the players on the list have been active since then, so more recent citations for them on an individual basis would be helpful.
Left guide (talk) 08:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
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