Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources: Difference between revisions
Content deleted Content added
Extended confirmed users 52,257 edits |
42,664 edits →Some thoughts: add wikilink |
||
| Line 430: | Line 430: | ||
== Some thoughts == |
== Some thoughts == |
||
I'm having second thoughts about the entire perennial source process, and the way we are judging the "whole" despite its many "parts", such as (a) multiple broadcast stations that comprise a television network, (b) numerous individual programs that comprise a channel, and (c) various topics that comprise individual sections of an online or print publication. We are depriving ourselves access to a rich pool of resources by using a flawed rating system. POV creep is a serious issue, and I am concerned that it poses a threat to encyclopedic diversity and NPOV which is one of the 3 most important core content policies of WP. We are already dangerously close to our results being the product of [[Groupthink]] rather than reaching results from a more nuanced approach that involves critical thinking based on unbiased expert analysis and experience. It's one thing to write an article without experience, etc. but it's something entirely different if the result of such critical decisions negatively effect a RS because it was based on misinformation or misunderstanding, or the hedging of guidelines, the lack of experience and/or unawareness - give or take, whatever fits best. What I'm seeing here is that our results are a culmination of SYNTH (combining material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion) + biased POV. We're taking criticism at face value from various sources that may have a financial COI or political bias against Fox, and we're adding it all together to conclude that an entire network or channel is "unreliable". To that, add our own POV creep and favoritism or dislike for Fox's conservative programming. We held an RfC to reach a consensus in an effort to rate the entire source's reliability, despite the many parts that comprise the whole, and by doing so, we dismissed WP:RS which states: {{xt|Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process.}} We are actually seeding bias by such a judgment call, and prejudicing an editor's choice of sources using this flawed rating system when we should be evaluating specific material published in a source that we want to include in a given article based on '''CONTEXT'''. We can't deny that liberals will dismiss a conservative source or vice versa, intentional or otherwise, and based on first impressions, it appears to be playing out here. Perhaps it's time to prepare a survey for wider community input at VPP because of the policies involved, rather than limit it to a single noticeboard. I'm certainly open to be convinced otherwise. [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D"><sup>Atsme</sup></span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Atsme|<small>Talk</small>]]</sub> [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 17:11, 25 July 2020 (UTC) |
I'm having second thoughts about the entire perennial source process, and the way we are judging the "whole" despite its many "parts", such as (a) multiple broadcast stations that comprise a television network, (b) numerous individual programs that comprise a channel, and (c) various topics that comprise individual sections of an online or print publication. We are depriving ourselves access to a rich pool of resources by using a flawed rating system. [[Wikipedia:POV creep|POV creep]] is a serious issue, and I am concerned that it poses a threat to encyclopedic diversity and NPOV which is one of the 3 most important core content policies of WP. We are already dangerously close to our results being the product of [[Groupthink]] rather than reaching results from a more nuanced approach that involves critical thinking based on unbiased expert analysis and experience. It's one thing to write an article without experience, etc. but it's something entirely different if the result of such critical decisions negatively effect a RS because it was based on misinformation or misunderstanding, or the hedging of guidelines, the lack of experience and/or unawareness - give or take, whatever fits best. What I'm seeing here is that our results are a culmination of SYNTH (combining material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion) + biased POV. We're taking criticism at face value from various sources that may have a financial COI or political bias against Fox, and we're adding it all together to conclude that an entire network or channel is "unreliable". To that, add our own POV creep and favoritism or dislike for Fox's conservative programming. We held an RfC to reach a consensus in an effort to rate the entire source's reliability, despite the many parts that comprise the whole, and by doing so, we dismissed WP:RS which states: {{xt|Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process.}} We are actually seeding bias by such a judgment call, and prejudicing an editor's choice of sources using this flawed rating system when we should be evaluating specific material published in a source that we want to include in a given article based on '''CONTEXT'''. We can't deny that liberals will dismiss a conservative source or vice versa, intentional or otherwise, and based on first impressions, it appears to be playing out here. Perhaps it's time to prepare a survey for wider community input at VPP because of the policies involved, rather than limit it to a single noticeboard. I'm certainly open to be convinced otherwise. [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D"><sup>Atsme</sup></span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Atsme|<small>Talk</small>]]</sub> [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 17:11, 25 July 2020 (UTC) |
||
:You made 69 edits in the RfC. Above, you tried to rehash it. It now sounds like you didn’t like the result, and so you wish to toss it and start over elsewhere. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 18:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC) |
:You made 69 edits in the RfC. Above, you tried to rehash it. It now sounds like you didn’t like the result, and so you wish to toss it and start over elsewhere. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 18:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC) |
||
:There is no such thing as "POV creep" and we are not in danger of creating a groupthink product. And can we please leave U.S. politics out of this? RSP has become one of the most useful content resources on Wikipedia, and for good reason: it succinctly reflects consensus from prior discussions. It's an index. This guide was never meant to be a substitute for discussion and evaluating sources in the context in which they are proposed to be used. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 18:37, 25 July 2020 (UTC) |
:There is no such thing as "POV creep" and we are not in danger of creating a groupthink product. And can we please leave U.S. politics out of this? RSP has become one of the most useful content resources on Wikipedia, and for good reason: it succinctly reflects consensus from prior discussions. It's an index. This guide was never meant to be a substitute for discussion and evaluating sources in the context in which they are proposed to be used. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 18:37, 25 July 2020 (UTC) |
||
Revision as of 00:10, 29 July 2020
 | Discuss sources on the reliable sources noticeboard To discuss the reliability of a source, please start or join a discussion on the WP:RSN ). Discussions on the noticeboard will be added to this list. This talk page is for discussing the maintenance of the list itself, and arguments posted here will not be taken into consideration. |
 | Controversially classified sources reliable sources noticeboard to determine the current consensus instead of directly editing your preferred classification into the list. If you are unfamiliar with RfCs, please ask here, and other editors will be glad to assist. |
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Reliable sources/Perennial sources page. |
|
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9Auto-archiving period: 14 days  |
 | This project page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks . |
 | Wikipedia Help A‑class High‑importance | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
 | This project page has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:
|
.svg){kind=small} | Daily pageviews of Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources
A graph should have been displayed here but graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at pageviews.wmcloud.org |
Global Times
Is the now closed discussion at
Horse Eye Jack (talk) 23:36, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
]
- I probably wouldn't as yet - generally speaking, I don't think there should be a rush to list things here unless consensus is clearly overwhelming. There's a vexed and ongoing argument about just how independent various state-owned media are and where they therefore go on the reliability scale - David Gerard (talk) 09:47, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- The Global Times is already listed here. They also aren’t one of the edge cases we’re concerned about with state-owned media, these guys are worse than RT. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 20:10, 29 May 2020 (UTC)]
- I think more participation would be helpful here, probably in the form of an RfC. — Newslinger talk 02:37, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- The Global Times is already listed here. They also aren’t one of the edge cases we’re concerned about with state-owned media, these guys are worse than RT.
- Can add ]
- CGTN yes but not SCMP... SCMP is editorially independent of the Chinese government and located in HK. CGTN and Global Times are similarly unreliable state mouthpieces. SCMP is generally reliable. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 21:45, 6 July 2020 (UTC)]
- CGTN yes but not SCMP... SCMP is editorially independent of the Chinese government and located in HK. CGTN and Global Times are similarly unreliable state mouthpieces. SCMP is generally reliable.
- Can add ]
Is there a list of reliable HK sources out there somewhere? Because it's came up in AfDs a few times and I assume not every news outlet there would be reliable. I'd love to start a list if there isn't one already. Adamant1 (talk) 10:22, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
Reliability of the ADL?
Should this be considered the same as Hope Not Hate? CantingCrew (talk) 15:24, 15 July 2020 (UTC)CantingCrew
- There is currently an active RfC on the WP:RSN § RfC: Anti-Defamation League (ADL). Feel free to ask questions and express your opinions there. — Newslinger talk 19:53, 18 July 2020 (UTC)]
The origin of Memes and citing Knowyourmeme
I don't know how any more accurate evidence can be found on topics this obscure, or are we simply to wait until a publication decides to talk about it ( and often get it wrong ). Especially because contextually there isn't a better site. This has led to inaccuracies on other pages. There is a good context for referencing such sites.CantingCrew (talk) 15:27, 15 July 2020 (UTC)CantingCrew
- reliable sources noticeboard. — Newslinger talk 19:58, 18 July 2020 (UTC)]
Wording for a listing
Newslinger, the AfterEllen discussion recently closed: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 302#AfterEllen. Any ideas for what wording to use for its listing on this page? The consensus is generally reliable, with a strong emphasis on context. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:31, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hi WP:NPPSG § No consensus with the description "a July 2020 RSN discussion did not come to a consensus, with a majority arguing that it was generally reliable and usable as attributable opinion". I can see how a formal closure would be useful for this discussion, and it is unfortunate that the discussion was not turned into an RfC because the subject is quite controversial. — Newslinger talk 02:43, 20 July 2020 (UTC)]
- Newslinger, as always, no need to ping me since I watch this page and I check back for replies regardless.
- There are listings on this page that are supported by only one discussion, and I don't see what else could be stated about AfterEllen at this point in time. The WP:NPPSG listing is contradictory since the sentence clearly states "with a majority arguing that it was generally reliable and usable as attributable opinion." So that should be tweaked away from "no consensus."
And I'll do that now.I could request a formal close of the discussion since closes have been carried out after a thread has been archived, but I think I'll likely leave it be. And I agree that AfterEllen should be judged on its own merits. AfterElton/TheBacklot is defunct. As for AfterEllen's listing here at WP:RSP, I'm not pressed to have it listed. I questioned the matter because discussion on it recently closed. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:59, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
- There are listings on this page that are supported by only one discussion, and I don't see what else could be stated about AfterEllen at this point in time. The WP:NPPSG listing is contradictory since the sentence clearly states "with a majority arguing that it was generally reliable and usable as attributable opinion." So that should be tweaked away from "no consensus."
- Actually, I'll leave that listing at WP:NPPSG as is for now. But that listing is currently contradictory. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 03:05, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
- Since RfCs are widely publicized through the feedback request system, an RfC can serve as a substitute for two discussions. However, there are simply too many sources discussed on the noticeboard for this list to include those that only have one non-RfC discussion. The inclusion criteria were initially formed in Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources/Archive 2 § Criteria for inclusion, and I unsuccessfully proposed that they be tightened in Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources/Archive 3 § Adding notability to the inclusion criteria. If you think the criteria can be improved in some way, please share your suggestions. I'll try to remember your preference to not be pinged—sorry about that. — Newslinger talk 03:12, 20 July 2020 (UTC)]
- Since RfCs are widely publicized through the
- Actually, I'll leave that listing at WP:NPPSG as is for now. But that listing is currently contradictory. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 03:05, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
- Newslinger: Just an FYI. AfterElton.com > TheBacklot.com = zero. The website was dissolved in 2015. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 00:12, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Flyer, I have put in a formal request for closure after a request from Pyxis. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:37, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
Fox News
With the RFC now closed (see [1]), I have gone ahead and updated the entry for Fox News on this list. My changes can be seen here [2]. Anyone should feel free to correct it I have made any mistakes. Calidum 16:25, 21 July 2020 (UTC)]
- "The decision applies to local affiliates as well.” I dont think this bit is accurate, I read "In areas outside these two subjects, as well as reporting from local/affiliate stations, Fox is generally seen as reliable; there were little to no complaints made about these areas of coverage, with some of the opposition agreeing that they were acceptable.” as saying that Fox affiliates remain generally reliable *including for politics and science.* Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:42, 21 July 2020 (UTC)]
- You're right, I misread that bit. Calidum 17:04, 22 July 2020 (UTC)]
- You're right, I misread that bit.
- It should stay green (as generally reliable). The close statement concludes that it's generally accepted to be reliable for most topics except politics and science. For those two areas, there was no consensus. This should be stated in the extra statement, but it should remain green, just like we do with Haaretz, The New Republic, The Guardian, and many others, which all have 'extra considerations' to be noted for some topic areas. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:49, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- I’d check The Guardians entry again, its not anything like you just suggested. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:17, 21 July 2020 (UTC)]
- Fair enough. I was putting bias and reliability into the same basket for a minute there. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:06, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- The New Republic and Haaretz are similar to the Guardian, so I would say your concern is moot, ProcrastinatingReader. starship.paint (talk) 04:43, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I was putting bias and reliability into the same basket for a minute there. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:06, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- I chose to change it to yellow because the close explicitly said that Fox "should be used with caution to verify contentious claims" concerning politics and science even though it remains reliable for everything else. Calidum 17:04, 22 July 2020 (UTC)]
- I’d check The Guardians entry again, its not anything like you just suggested.
- My opinion is that yellow is probably more appropriate, as I think that the status was a bit more hotly disputed than for Ha'aretz and other sources mentioned here thus far, where there are accusations of bias but only a small fringe of editors consider them outright unreliable. While the close stated that the no consensus applies to their political and science reporting, political reporting is a significant portion of their output. signed, Rosguill talk 20:06, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
I propose that there should be a separate entry "Fox News (Politics)" to cover this, though how or if you would attempt to split the previous Fox News discussions or just duplicate them is a tricky question. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:34, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
- I would restructure the entries, keeping the two-entry split (generally reliable and no consensus) but with the parenthetical text being "general topics" and "politics, science, and talk shows", respectively. The summaries should then be rewritten to fit the new scopes. In my opinion, the current summaries focus too much on Fox News' television content, when the majority of Fox News citations on Wikipedia are to their website content. — Newslinger talk 02:58, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
Just a question/comment about the "science" part. Should that be something to the effect of scientific topics that have a strong political component (please use better phrasing). For example, climate change science discussions are often colored by the strong political issues associated with them. Conversely, coverage of something like coverage of the space technology or robotics and most aspects of medicine typically have little political angle and thus shouldn't be an issue. Springee (talk) 04:04, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
There’s no way that a one-entry Fox News listing can stay green. The RFC close’s first sentence explicitly said: The result of this RFC is that there is no consensus regarding the reliability of Fox News (hereafter "Fox").
Therefore Fox News is no longer “Generally reliable in its areas of expertise” for a green tick. It has to be changed to either a two-entry listing of yellow and green, or a one-entry listing of yellow. starship.paint (talk) 04:33, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Workshop
Two-entry proposal
| Source | Status (legend) |
Discussions | Uses | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| List | Last | Summary | |||
| Fox News (general topics and local affiliates) | 
|
 2010 2020
+TBD |
2020 | There is consensus that Fox News is generally reliable for news coverage on topics other than politics and science. There is also consensus that Fox television affiliates are generally reliable for news. See also: Fox News (politics, science, and talk shows).
|
1  
|
| Fox News (politics, science, and talk shows) | 
|
2010 2020
+TBD |
2020 | There is no consensus on the reliability of Fox News's coverage of politics and science. There is also no consensus on the reliability of Fox News talk shows. Use Fox News with caution to verify contentious claims. See also: Fox News (general topics and local affiliates). | 1
|
The above mockup is what a two-entry representation of Fox News would look like. In my opinion, this is the most straightforward way to portray the bolded portion of the 2020 RfC's closing summary: "for science and political referencing there is no consensus regarding the reliability of Fox News, and it should be used with caution to verify contentious claims. For other subjects Fox News is generally considered reliable." The "talk shows" part is carried over from the current Fox News (talk shows) entry, since talk shows were out of the scope of the 2020 RfC.
As you can see, the summaries in the example are extremely minimal. If you are interested in a two-entry split like the one above, please feel free to suggest pertinent additions to the summaries that are representative of past discussions (including the 2020 RfC) and would improve the reader's understanding of how Fox News should be appropriately used on Wikipedia. If you prefer just one entry for Fox News or would rather see the entries split in a different way, please create a new section with a mockup of your suggestion. — Newslinger talk 05:06, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Given the contentiousness of the discussion and the huge number of calls comments in that direction, I find it remiss not to add "many editors consider Fox News to be biased, opinionated, and unreliable". GPinkerton (talk) 05:12, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- The term biased or opinionated is fairly standard in this list. Which entry or entries would you include it in? The word unreliable was not used in the closing summary and conflicts with the "no consensus" status, so I would use something else. — Newslinger talk 05:17, 23 July 2020 (UTC)]
- @Newslinger: Ideally both. I would also like to extend "politics and science" into something like "society, culture, and economics" (and politics and science). These areas of reporting can hardly be considered separate or neutral. GPinkerton (talk) 06:30, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- None of that is in the closure. Crossroads -talk- 15:24, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Newslinger: Ideally both. I would also like to extend "politics and science" into something like "society, culture, and economics" (and politics and science). These areas of reporting can hardly be considered separate or neutral. GPinkerton (talk) 06:30, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- The term
- Probably should add (general topics and local affiliates) in the first entry per the close. Tayi Arajakate Talk 05:19, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Good point. I've added it. — Newslinger talk 05:22, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- There's a slight inaccuracy in that approach with the list column, where the 2020 RfC is listed as the discussion for the talk shows too. But I can't think of a better option, and 3 rows would just be silly, so imo your table as-is is a good presentation. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 08:45, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think it best to retain the separation between their talk shows versus news. The latest RfC was about their news content. I expect there will be more RfCs, if for no other reason that to clarify what "political" means when it comes to content from Fox News. Use "political" rather than "politics" for a broader scope. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 17:37, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Suggestion:
- Fox News: generally reliable; some newscasters may be politically biased. For science topics, it is best to corroborate such information with higher quality scientific sources as we should with all news sources.
- Fox News Channel's talk shows: There is no consensus on the reliability of Fox News Channel's talk show commentary, particularly pundit opinions relative to politics and science; use with caution and verify contentious claims with higher quality sources. See also: Fox News (general topics and local affiliates).
- Adding that there is a difference in the actual news bias because the newscasters are of mixed political persuasions - some lean left, some are center, and some lean right. Atsme Talk 📧 13:51, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Atsme: Can you name a left-leaning Fox employee? I have never heard of such a rare novelty. GPinkerton (talk) 17:41, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Well, let's see...I don't watch TV that often because it's too much like work...but see Hollywood Reporter, Chris Wallace, Juan Williams, Donna Brazile, Michael Starr Hopkins (Democratic strategist), Chris Hahn (progressive radio host), Jessica Tarlov, Sheps gone now but he was an afternoon anchor, and they have lots of guests including academics on various talk shows, and then there's the obvious. Here's a 2018 Fast Company article. Hope that helps. Atsme Talk 📧 18:38, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Atsme: I said left-leaning, meaning in a global sense, not whatever passes for left-leaning in the furiously right-wing USA today. These example support the centre-right Democratic Party ... GPinkerton (talk) 18:43, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- "furiously right-wing USA today"??? WTF are you talking about? I don't know if you noticed, but in the last national election, Democrats got a lot more votes than Republicans. In the national election before that, Democrats got a lot more votes than Republicans. In the national election before that, Obama won re-election by a significant margin, although Republicans did pick up seats in Congress. If anything, the USA is furiously split, not furiously right- or left-wing. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 17:50, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Levivich: There you go again, calling the Democratic Party left wing. They and their policies'd be considered centre-right in most of the civilized world. They're certainly far more conservative than the right wing of the right-wing where I live. GPinkerton (talk) 17:55, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- No, the DP is not considered center-right in most of "the civilized world". Also, I didn't call the DP left wing. Here's a secret: there are no wings. There is no such thing as "left wing" or "right wing", those are just terms people apply to their political opponents. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 17:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Well their policies and style of government would be considered conservative where I live, which is one of the most conservative countries in the West by voting record. Our article "Centre-right politics" quotes the "New Democrats" as an example in the lead. GPinkerton (talk) 22:52, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- No, the DP is not considered center-right in most of "the civilized world". Also, I didn't call the DP left wing. Here's a secret: there are no wings. There is no such thing as "left wing" or "right wing", those are just terms people apply to their political opponents. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 17:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Levivich: There you go again, calling the Democratic Party left wing. They and their policies'd be considered centre-right in most of the civilized world. They're certainly far more conservative than the right wing of the right-wing where I live. GPinkerton (talk) 17:55, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- "furiously right-wing USA today"??? WTF are you talking about? I don't know if you noticed, but in the last national election, Democrats got a lot more votes than Republicans. In the national election before that, Democrats got a lot more votes than Republicans. In the national election before that, Obama won re-election by a significant margin, although Republicans did pick up seats in Congress. If anything, the USA is furiously split, not furiously right- or left-wing. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 17:50, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Although they are (at this point in history) generally one and the same thing, don't confuse "fact based" for "left-leaning". Wallace is "fact based", which, to extreme right-wingers and typical Fox News viewers, is seen as "left-leaning". They aren't always the same thing, and it doesn't make him, or some of the others listed, "left-leaning". They just happen to side with the facts, along with most of the mainstream media, unlike Fox News. -- Valjean (talk) 00:32, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Atsme: I said left-leaning, meaning in a global sense, not whatever passes for left-leaning in the furiously right-wing USA today. These example support the centre-right Democratic Party ... GPinkerton (talk) 18:43, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Well, let's see...I don't watch TV that often because it's too much like work...but see Hollywood Reporter, Chris Wallace, Juan Williams, Donna Brazile, Michael Starr Hopkins (Democratic strategist), Chris Hahn (progressive radio host), Jessica Tarlov, Sheps gone now but he was an afternoon anchor, and they have lots of guests including academics on various talk shows, and then there's the obvious. Here's a 2018 Fast Company article. Hope that helps. Atsme Talk 📧 18:38, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Atsme: Can you name a left-leaning Fox employee? I have never heard of such a rare novelty. GPinkerton (talk) 17:41, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Good suggestion, but not sure if the political persuasions bit is needed. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 18:53, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Atsme, Fox is not generally reliable. It is only generally reliable outside the area for which it is most commonly cited. In the area where it is most commonly cited, it is "use with caution and only after verifying with other sources". Guy (help!) 19:21, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Guy, you are an excellent reader, and a brilliant editor. There is absolutely zero ambiguity in the closers' statement as follows (my bold underline): In other words: for science and political referencing there is no consensus regarding the reliability of Fox News, and it should be used with caution to verify contentious claims. For other subjects Fox News is generally considered reliable. Please, do not attempt to change consensus or reword what the closers' stated. We do not need anyone else's interpretation or opinion of that close. Just use their exact statement, and we're good to go. Atsme Talk 📧 19:31, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Atsme, the framing you laid out lumps the "politics and science" under pundits' views. That is not the text of the close. signed, Rosguill talk 19:45, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Rosguill - newscasts are straight-up news, often with on-the-scene reporting from local broadcast news stations where journalists might be standing in a hurricane or covering a riot, or it could be a news anchor at a desk reporting straight-up news with cutaways to the event. The bias comes in after the field producers submit the footage, and then the segment producers and editors review the footage and select the clips and soundbytes. There's really not much time to inject a whole lot of bias - and also keep in mind that much of the 24 hrs cable news networks depend on wires. On the opposite end of the spectrum we have the pundits/commentators/talking heads on talk shows with an entirely different approach. Their shows are outlined days in advance and they don't do straight-up news coverage unless it's breaking news and even then, they switch to the newscast, and that's why the newscasts need to be separated because some of the talk shows, like Fox & Friends, break away from the couch and go to an actual newscast with a news anchor - 2 totally separate things - and that happens throughout the day. It appeared to me that you were all aware of the channel's formatting and understood that we were dealing with two separate types of programming. I can understand why it would be confusing to people who don't watch the Fox News Channel, and that's what I tried to explain during the RfC. But hey - I'm just trying to help editors understand why there's a difference - but I'm a team player and happy to go along with whatever consensus decides. I thought y'all did a good job but based on what I read, I thought it was understood that the commentators were the op-eds and not the news. Atsme Talk 📧 20:57, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Atsme:
standing in a hurricane or covering a riot
"If Fox tells you it's a riot, how do you know it's a "riot". Who is describing it that way? Fox. If Wikipedia says there was a riot, that fact had better be sourced to something less biased than Fox. My view is that Fox might be unbiased in its weather (not climate) and its sport. Everything else they touch is political. GPinkerton (talk) 21:08, 23 July 2020 (UTC)- @Atsme: - your words: Fox News: generally reliable. Whereas, the closers' words:
The result of this RFC is that there is no consensus regarding the reliability of Fox News
. Given the difference, your proposal is a non-starter. starship.paint (talk) 07:19, 24 July 2020 (UTC)- Starship, the exact words in the summary of the closing that I read are (my bold underline): In other words: for science and political referencing there is no consensus regarding the reliability of Fox News, and it should be used with caution to verify contentious claims. For other subjects Fox News is generally considered reliable. ]
- @Atsme: - by your own underlining, other subjects is not all subjects. Your writing of Fox News: generally reliable implies as coverage pertaining to all subjects. starship.paint (talk) 13:09, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Atsme, I don't regularly watch TV news anymore but I have watched Fox on enough occasions to understand how their programming works. While there were several editors who conflated the talk shows with the news reporting, there were also editors who recognized the difference and nevertheless raised concerns about the news desk's reliability. It is in a sense unfortunate that the discussion resulted in no consensus rather than a clear yes-reliable or no-unreliable because this will require more work from editors on a case-by-case basis to determine whether a given citation is appropriate, but we can't extract a result from the discussion that isn't there simply because it would be more convenient. signed, Rosguill talk 17:25, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Starship, the exact words in the summary of the closing that I read are (my bold underline): In other words: for science and political referencing there is no consensus regarding the reliability of Fox News, and it should be used with caution to verify contentious claims. For other subjects Fox News is generally considered reliable. ]
- @Atsme: - your words: Fox News: generally reliable. Whereas, the closers' words:
- @Atsme:
- Rosguill - newscasts are straight-up news, often with on-the-scene reporting from local broadcast news stations where journalists might be standing in a hurricane or covering a riot, or it could be a news anchor at a desk reporting straight-up news with cutaways to the event. The bias comes in after the field producers submit the footage, and then the segment producers and editors review the footage and select the clips and soundbytes. There's really not much time to inject a whole lot of bias - and also keep in mind that much of the 24 hrs cable news networks depend on wires. On the opposite end of the spectrum we have the pundits/commentators/talking heads on talk shows with an entirely different approach. Their shows are outlined days in advance and they don't do straight-up news coverage unless it's breaking news and even then, they switch to the newscast, and that's why the newscasts need to be separated because some of the talk shows, like Fox & Friends, break away from the couch and go to an actual newscast with a news anchor - 2 totally separate things - and that happens throughout the day. It appeared to me that you were all aware of the channel's formatting and understood that we were dealing with two separate types of programming. I can understand why it would be confusing to people who don't watch the Fox News Channel, and that's what I tried to explain during the RfC. But hey - I'm just trying to help editors understand why there's a difference - but I'm a team player and happy to go along with whatever consensus decides. I thought y'all did a good job but based on what I read, I thought it was understood that the commentators were the op-eds and not the news. Atsme Talk 📧 20:57, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Atsme, which is exactly what I said. It's not generally reliable for the area where it is most often cited (politics). Which is why I support the two-line solution: Fox is generally reliable (green) for affiliates (which are, as noted elsewhere, not actually Fox News) and for content outside of politics and science; fox is no consensus, and should be used with caution in the areas of politics and science.
- In practice of course if a source cannot be relied upon without first confirming with a more reliable source, then the more reliable source should always be used instead. But that much is obvious. Guy (help!) 12:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Seriously, I don't want to argue with either of you because I've already explained my position: the close needs specificity as the 3 of us just demonstrated. As it stands now, the close is an open door to potential misinterpretation based on POV creep, unknowing or otherwise. I see a clear misunderstanding of newscasts vs talk shows, so please allow the closers an opportunity to respond after reading my concerns. The original proposed close by Newslinger is not that far off and I don't see where specificity is going to hurt anything. You simply don't downgrade 24 hrs worth of reliable newscasts based on what some perceive to be the channel's political bias. If we do that, then all political and science reporting by all the other news channels should be downgraded for the same reasons - and that is exactly what Masem tried to warned us about. Atsme Talk 📧 13:48, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Atsme, the framing you laid out lumps the "politics and science" under pundits' views. That is not the text of the close. signed, Rosguill talk 19:45, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Guy, you are an excellent reader, and a brilliant editor. There is absolutely zero ambiguity in the closers' statement as follows (my bold underline): In other words: for science and political referencing there is no consensus regarding the reliability of Fox News, and it should be used with caution to verify contentious claims. For other subjects Fox News is generally considered reliable. Please, do not attempt to change consensus or reword what the closers' stated. We do not need anyone else's interpretation or opinion of that close. Just use their exact statement, and we're good to go. Atsme Talk 📧 19:31, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: I'm kind of confused as to why television affiliates are grouped under "Fox News". Fox News doesn't have affiliates, it's a cable channel. Fox News is a separate division in the company. Fox affiliates would fall under Fox Broadcasting Company or Fox Television Stations I think? Perhaps that warrants a separate section in the table, and I guess that refers to their newscasts/websites? Heartfox (talk) 16:49, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- I don't believe that suggestion properly summarizes the latest RfC. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 17:25, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Comment What is the meaning of "general topics"? What exactly are we considering "general" as opposed to "political" or "science". Weather and sports? What else is newsworthy? Shouldn't this be more specific to earn a green tick? GPinkerton (talk) 21:13, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Newslinger's proposal seems pretty close to ideal. I agree that "Fox affiliates" are a separate matter. The phrase
"...and it should be used with caution to verify contentious claims
seems vague. I would prefer something like "...it should be used with caution, if at all". - MrX 🖋 21:43, 23 July 2020 (UTC)- We should stick to what the close actually said. Calidum 17:52, 24 July 2020 (UTC)]
- We should stick to what the close actually said.
- Alternative wording: "There is consensus that Fox News is generally reliable for news coverage on topics that are not political or science-related." --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 22:23, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- I would actually suggest three entries, only to minimize confusion, and in this order (but otherwise same language).
- Fox News - talk shows and for political/science news - no consensus
- Fox News - All other news - reliable
- Fox News affiliates - reliable
- I'm probably thinking more like a programmer but if I'm on this page and do ctrl-F to find Fox News, this order distills the cases down in the cleanest way possible. --Masem (t) 14:30, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support Newslinger's or Masem's proposals. We need to stick to the language of the closure and not add our own. Any suggestions that use language not in the RfC closure must be rejected. That's the only way to avoid introducing personal POV and effectively re-closing it ourselves. Crossroads -talk- 15:24, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think that Newslinger's suggestion is good, although I would consider splitting the "talk shows" listing from the "politics and science" listing. Yes they're both yellow in the current schema, but their status is the result of different discussions, and listing them together conflates the news reporting on controversial topics with their talk show content. signed, Rosguill talk 17:30, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Why are we lumping in talk shows (Hannity and Carlson, for example) with political and science reporting? The talk shows are to be treated as opinion pieces and require attribution, whereas Fox "should be used with caution to verify contentious claims" concerning politics and science. Calidum 17:50, 24 July 2020 (UTC)]
- "Fox News - All other news - reliable" Would this include the coverage of recent protests? Among the Fox News controversies was the use of "digitally altered photographs" to present the Seattle protests as an "armed unrest". Dimadick (talk) 07:22, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- I would prefer we dropped the “and local affiliates” part, Fox local affiliates are a diverse group that should be evaluated individually. Not all are gonna be generally reliable so anytime we lump them together we’re gonna have issues because we’re lumping together low, medium, and high quality sources with a wide range of editorial independence, geographic reach, level of reporting, etc etc etc. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 04:49, 26 July 2020 (UTC)]
- Oppose combining the talk shows and science/politics. There's no consensus for science/politics; not for the talk shows. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 04:29, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Alternative proposal
| Source | Status (legend) |
Discussions | Uses | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| List | Last | Summary | |||
| Fox News (non-science and non-political topics and local affiliates) |
|
2010 2020
+TBD |
2020 | There is consensus that Fox News is generally not reliable for news coverage of politics or scientific topics. There is consensus that Fox News is reliable for news coverage on other topics. There is also consensus that Fox television affiliates are generally reliable for news. Many editors believe Fox News is biased and opinionated for politics and science. See also: Fox News (politics, science, and talk shows).
|
1
|
| Fox News (politics, science, and talk shows) |
|
2010 2020
+TBD |
2020 | There is no consensus on the reliability of Fox News's coverage of politics and science. There is also no consensus on the reliability of Fox News talk shows. Many editors believe Fox News is biased and opinionated for politics and science. Use Fox News with caution to verify contentious claims. See also: Fox News (general topics and local affiliates). | 1
|
This proposal takes into account the large numbers of editors that felt Fox News was wholly unreliable in the various RfCs. If The Guardian is considered "biased or opinionated" "by some", Fox News needs an equivalent or stronger wording; "many editors" and "biased and opinionated". GPinkerton (talk) 00:45, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- @GPinkerton: "There is consensus that Fox News is generally not reliable for news coverage of politics or scientific topics." is not found in the RfC closing statement. Was there a previous RfC that reached this conclusion? Also, I think the phrase "generally reliable" is preferable to "reliable" for the purposes of RSP. - MrX 🖋 12:14, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Fox talk shows were excluded from the RfC. I think we should keep the old text for these:
Fox News talk shows are produced by their Programming department. Shows include Hannity, Tucker Carlson Tonight, The Ingraham Angle, and Fox & Friends. Content from these shows is equivalent to opinion pieces and should be handled with the appropriate guideline. Statements from these shows should be attributed.
O3000 (talk) 14:10, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Fox talk shows were excluded from the RfC. I think we should keep the old text for these:
- Oppose, this uses language not in the RfC close and is therefore effectively a re-close. Crossroads -talk- 15:24, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose I think, not least because I think Fox affiliates are not branded Fox News and should be separate (as should Fox Business, probably). Guy (help!) 15:34, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Calidum's proposal
| Source | Status (legend) |
Discussions | Uses | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| List | Last | Summary | |||
| Fox News |
|
2010 2020
+TBD |
2020 | A 2020 RFC concluded "For science and political referencing there is no consensus regarding the reliability of Fox News, and it should be used with caution to verify contentious claims. For other subjects Fox News is generally considered reliable." Local affiliates were deemed reliable as well. | 1
|
| Fox News (talk shows) |
|
2010 2020
+TBD |
2020 | Fox News talk shows are produced by their Programming department. Shows include attributed. See also: Fox News (news and website) .
|
1
|
- Comment. Since I made the initial edit to the list, I would like to put my version back up for discussion. It summarizes the recent RFC's close without editorializing and leaves the talk shows piece untouched because they were not addressed in the recent discussion. Calidum 18:04, 24 July 2020 (UTC)]
- While this is a valid way to split the entries, I have a feeling that assigning a "no consensus" status to the entirety of Fox News would be more divisive for the community than if the entries were split more granularly. There was an edit war over the original Fox News entry in November 2018, discussed at Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources/Archive 1 § Fox News changed to "no consensus", which was resolved by splitting Fox News talk shows into a separate entry. The 2020 RfC closure defined two sets of topics with different consensuses (politics and science; topics other than politics and science), and in my opinion, reflecting this division clearly in the entries would help stabilize the list. — Newslinger talk 18:45, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose - too confusing, and per Newslinger. Crossroads -talk- 19:39, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose - This does not reflect the consensus of the editors. It is wrong to label the entire network as being mixed in reliability when the consensus was that their non-political coverage is reliable. talk) 18:45, 27 July 2020 (UTC)]
Four-entry proposal
Quite a few editors have pointed out that
Fox television affiliates are not actually part of Fox News
, even though "Fox News" is often colloquially used to refer to them. On this basis, it would make sense to have a separate entry for Fox affiliates, since "Fox News" is a misnomer here. The following mockup also splits Fox News talk shows into a separate entry; I'm not entirely sure this is necessary, but you can see what it would look like:
| Source | Status (legend) |
Discussions | Uses | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| List | Last | Summary | |||
| Fox News (general topics) |
|
2010 2020
+TBD |
2020 | There is consensus that Fox News is generally reliable for news coverage on topics other than politics and science. See also: Fox News (politics, science), Fox News (talk shows). | 1
|
| Fox News (politics and science) |
|
2010 2020
+TBD |
2020 | There is no consensus on the reliability of Fox News's coverage of politics and science. Use Fox News with caution to verify contentious claims. See also: Fox News (general topics), Fox News (talk shows). | 1
|
| Fox News (talk shows) |
|
2010
+11 |
2020 | There is no consensus on the reliability of Fox News talk shows, including attributed . See also: Fox News (general topics), Fox News (politics and science).
|
1
|
Fox television affiliates
|
|
2020
+TBD |
2020 | There is consensus that Fox television affiliates are generally reliable for news.
|
— |
— Newslinger talk 18:58, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- I support this. RSP gets used a lot and people will be coming here often; best to be as clear as possible. I don't consider 4 to be too many since we need to be clear, stick to the closure, and people can easily scroll to whatever they need with "find". Crossroads -talk- 19:38, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support: this is the most precise translation of the RfC into a table: it doesn't mix together politics/science topics and talk shows (which need to be treated differently, since one is assessed as factual reporting where the other is assessed as opinion), it doesn't give the at-a-glance impression that all Fox News content is considered questionable, and it doesn't alter the status of anything not discussed in the RfC. Vahurzpu (talk) 02:46, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose due to the language change of the talk shows row. It's not accurate to say "There is no consensus on the reliability of the talk shows". The most recent RfC wasn't specifically about the talk shows, but those who did mention them indicated there's no change to them being unreliable for statements of fact but can sometimes be used for their opinions. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 04:28, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Another proposal
Following the discussion below, another proposal. This time without mentioning affiliates (except by footnote, as proposed below), and presenting talk shows in red. The most recent RfC didn't focus on the talk shows, but to the extent they came up it does not deviate from long-held practice of considering them unreliable for statements of fact but sometimes usable for opinions. Yellow makes sense if there's one entry for Fox and we differentiate between the talk shows and the news desk, but with separate entries, if they're going to be included in the list it seems like red is the most accurate. Apologies if I missing a prior discussion/RfC about this. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 20:03, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
| Source | Status (legend) |
Discussions | Uses | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| List | Last | Summary | |||
| Fox News (news coverage on topics other than politics and science) |
|
2010 2020
+TBD |
2020 | There is consensus that Fox News is generally reliable for news coverage on topics other than politics and science. See also: Fox News (politics and science), Fox News (talk shows).[a] | 1
|
| Fox News (politics and science) |
|
2010 2020
+TBD |
2020 | There is no consensus on the reliability of Fox News's coverage of politics and science. Use Fox News with caution to verify contentious claims. See also: Fox News (general topics), Fox News (talk shows). | 1
|
| Fox News (talk shows) | 
|
2010
+11 |
2020 | Fox News talk shows, including opinions . See also: Fox News (news coverage on topics other than politics and science), Fox News (politics and science).
|
1
|
Notes
- WP:NEWSORG.
- In light of the clarification in WP:ABOUTSELF). — Newslinger talk 20:48, 24 July 2020 (UTC)]
- I think we're getting closer. I don't see value in including see also text (e.g. See also: Fox News (news coverage on topics other than politics and science), Fox News (politics and science).) since these entries are adjacent to each other. It's a niggling point, but I cherish simplicity. - MrX 🖋 20:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- I actually prefer it without, too, and only included it for consistency. Meh. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 21:01, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Is this something you would prefer removed from all adjacent entries? I think this pattern was first added to clearly indicate that the
Forbes.com contributors entry, since many editors were not reading far enough to see the latter entry. — Newslinger talk 21:05, 24 July 2020 (UTC)]- imo, unless the styling can also be changed (eg like a big ↪ as a 'mini column' to the left of Source for applicable entries) I think the repetition should be retained for clarity. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:12, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Arguably: the coloring on each row is necessary on the first two columns throughout the table (to quickly ID the status), which then would allow for clean use for rowspan="" parameters to group explanations like for Fox and Forbes. But that's a major change to the overall format to deal with a tiny bit of duplication. Since these three rows will always stick together, we could always say "See above for Fox News () for details" on the last two rows." --Masem (t) 00:49, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- imo, unless the styling can also be changed (eg like a big ↪ as a 'mini column' to the left of Source for applicable entries) I think the repetition should be retained for clarity. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:12, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- This version looks the best to me of all the proposals so far. Neutralitytalk 03:23, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- The footnotes do appear more adequate but with regards to the Talk show, instead of classifying them as generally unreliable it could be specified that they should only be used for attributed opinions. Tayi Arajakate Talk 13:15, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- This one would get my vote. GPinkerton (talk) 19:47, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with this one, Fox News talk shows definitely should not be used to support statements of fact. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:14, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with talk) 09:21, 27 July 2020 (UTC)]
- This proposal has the strongest support so far. Unless substantial objections are raised, I plan to implement it in 24 hours. — Newslinger talk 19:38, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I'm agreeable to this as well. --qedk (t 愛 c) 20:36, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Post RfC comments
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Editors involved in this discussion should consider for a second the fact that the biggest news source "on the right" is rated now as unreliable, while sources like BuzzFeed News is greenlit. Every editor knows that active editors are especially on the left-leaning side of the political spectrum, yet somehow, that is not taken into account in a "no consensus" closure. WP:Cabals was created 12 years ago and has never been more foreshadowing. 2601:602:9200:1310:28C6:21DD:5792:96D7 (talk) 10:47, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Every editor knows that active editors are especially on the left-leaning side of the political spectrum
Is that a fact? GPinkerton (talk) 10:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)- Ideological bias on Wikipedia#Bias in Wikipedia content in relation to U.S. politics - The authors found that "Wikipedia articles are more slanted towards Democratic views than are Britannica articles, as well as more biased", particularly those focusing on civil rights, corporations, and government. Atsme Talk 📧 11:36, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Does anyone have a link to the actual study?
In its initial years, Wikipedia’s crowdsourced articles were tinted very blue, slanting more toward Democratic views and displayed greater bias than Britannica.”Wikipedia content, it’s true, starts out as a little bit of a loud Democrat, as I sometimes joke,” said Greenstein. However, with more revisions and more moderators volunteering on the platform, the bias wore away. In fact, the upper quartile of the Wikipedia’s sample had enough revisions that there was no longer any difference in slant and bias from its offline counterpart.[3]
- O3000 (talk) 11:57, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Ideological bias on Wikipedia#Bias in Wikipedia content in relation to U.S. politics - The authors found that "Wikipedia articles are more slanted towards Democratic views than are Britannica articles, as well as more biased", particularly those focusing on civil rights, corporations, and government. Atsme Talk 📧 11:36, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Press Coverage
As I predicted, the Fox News decision has recieved mainstream press coverage, including this story by CNN, and I would expect more in the coming days. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:27, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hemiauchenia, seems a pretty fair statement of the facts. Sure, it doesn't reflect well on the network, but we know better than to confuse cause and effect: we're reflecting a problem which they could have fixed at any time. Guy (help!) 15:48, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- I am not particularly happy about the "yellow-level source" aspect being picked up by media outlets, since it is not representative of the proposals we're currently discussing. I've cleared the status of the current Fox News entry until this discussion is complete. — Newslinger talk 17:42, 24 July 2020 (UTC)]
- Interesting move. Do you think the media will pickup on that? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- I don't expect the existing articles (like the CNN Business one above) to be changed, since they were accurate at the time of publication and Wikipedia pages are known to change over time. But, any new coverage would have no reason to use "yellow-level source" to describe Fox News as a whole. — Newslinger talk 17:56, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Insider has run an article too now, not too different from CNN's coverage. signed, Rosguill talk 19:10, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- It will be equally as interesting when we do CNN and the other news networks with all their errors, Pulitzer returns, etc. Maybe it will help them improve in the long term. Atsme Talk 📧 03:20, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- Would that be what it takes to convince you Fox is less reliable even than they? GPinkerton (talk) 03:24, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Atsme: which of our reliable sources has had their Pulitzer Prize revoked? I searched and can't find it. Maybe I need different search terms. -- Valjean (talk) 16:13, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- I commented on it here back in June. You can start with Janet Cooke and check the cited references, and also check The NYTimes article to see just how many years the deception went on without them knowing it. It wasn't their first encounter with revocation because there was an incident much earlier but the Pulitzer panel chose not to revoke - got Russian collusion? Proper research will turn up some recent calls for revocation of Pulitzers which spells trouble in the house of cards, and brings diminishing returns for what the Pulitzer was originally intended to represent. That's what happens when people throw stones from glass houses. Atsme Talk 📧 16:43, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- You are pointing to a 17 year old incident, a 39 year old incident, and an 88 year old incident in two different sources as evidence this is a
house of cards
? The NYTimes and Wapo have won 199 Pulitzer Prizes. O3000 (talk) 16:55, 25 July 2020 (UTC) - Thanks for the info. That made me wonder about Fox News, but since the Pulitzer is not given to broadcast news, I did find this interesting info: https://www.quora.com/How-many-Pulitzer-prizes-has-Fox-News-won Alfred I. duPont-Columbia University Awards: "Once again, public broadcasting is the cream of the crop. PBS has 23, WBGH in Boston has 21 (many shared with PBS), and National Public Radio has earned 17. CBS and ABC each have 13, NBC 7, and CNN 6. MSNBC and Court TV have two, and National Geographic , CNBC and Current TV all have one. Fox News Channel? Zero."
- BTW, the "collusion" has been proven in spades, so anyone who repeats that misinformation only damages their credibility. It is "conspiracy" that was not proven, likely because of the massive and successful proven obstruction by Trump. Fox News is complicit in that obstruction and spread of misinformation. -- Valjean (talk) 17:07, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- Ahh ha!! Something we can agree on, ]
- You are pointing to a 17 year old incident, a 39 year old incident, and an 88 year old incident in two different sources as evidence this is a
- I commented on it here back in June. You can start with Janet Cooke and check the cited references, and also check The NYTimes article to see just how many years the deception went on without them knowing it. It wasn't their first encounter with revocation because there was an incident much earlier but the Pulitzer panel chose not to revoke - got Russian collusion? Proper research will turn up some recent calls for revocation of Pulitzers which spells trouble in the house of cards, and brings diminishing returns for what the Pulitzer was originally intended to represent. That's what happens when people throw stones from glass houses. Atsme Talk 📧 16:43, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- It will be equally as interesting when we do CNN and the other news networks with all their errors, Pulitzer returns, etc. Maybe it will help them improve in the long term. Atsme Talk 📧 03:20, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- Insider has run an article too now, not too different from CNN's coverage. signed, Rosguill talk 19:10, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- I don't expect the existing articles (like the CNN Business one above) to be changed, since they were accurate at the time of publication and Wikipedia pages are known to change over time. But, any new coverage would have no reason to use "yellow-level source" to describe Fox News as a whole. — Newslinger talk 17:56, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Interesting move. Do you think the media will pickup on that? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Now also on OpIndia, for a different take than CNN. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:57, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- (Redacted) Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 13:17, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Who cares? O3000 (talk) 13:21, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- People interested in press coverage about the WP-FOX-thing? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:19, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Yep. That is why the would be keeping an eye out here. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 15:24, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Emir of Wikipedia, the fact that you have to consciously alter the formatting of the URL so that you can avoid the blacklist that is on the site should tell you exactly why such links shouldn't be posted. Please don't do it again. Primefac (talk) 02:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Yep. That is why the would be keeping an eye out here. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 15:24, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- People interested in press coverage about the WP-FOX-thing? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:19, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Who cares? O3000 (talk) 13:21, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- (Redacted) Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 13:17, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
General discussion
Sorry for the new header -- there was no obvious place for discussion about the proposals in general. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:34, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Both of the proposals above change the wording about talk shows, but the RfC wasn't about the talk shows. Based on the various discussions of the talk shows I've seen, it's far from "no consensus". It's on the "additional considerations apply" side of yellow. The most charitable version is "it varies, but they should generally be treated as opinion", but so many comments in all of these discussions are largely critical of the reliability of the talk shows that I don't think it should make it seem like they're the same as Fox News science/politics coverage. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:34, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- That's right, I think we'd already discounted talk shows to unreliable/RSOPINION (and even there very careful use due to bias), a priori to the RFC. The issues of how the reputation of the talk shows impacted the news side came into play and why the political/science facets should be considered with caution. --Masem (t) 17:46, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Adding to my point above, this means we need 4 lines for Fox News: Fox News talk shows (unreliable), Fox News political and science reports (no consensus so use caution), Fox News all other reporting (reliable) Fox News affiliates (reliable). Might seem overkill but the RFC closure is clear that the answer isn't simple and to be very clear, multiple lines are necessary --Masem (t) 17:54, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know that we really need the last one. At least not as a consequence of these discussions. They were primarily mentioned in the RfC in the context of the RfC's main questions not really applying to those affiliates. They're Fox affiliates, after all, not Fox News. I don't think I've ever even seen a substantial debate regarding treating them any differently than we do any other local TV news. I wouldn't want to just say green/reliable because it depends on the individual affiliate. Some are going to be better than others and they have independent newsrooms. So I'd say sure to the first three, and omit the fourth. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:56, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- (news organizations guideline and are assumed to be reliable unless there is evidence otherwise, which is consistent with the consensus in the 2020 RfC. If we omit a separate entry for Fox television affiliates, I think it would be helpful to include a note in summary of the Fox News (general topics) entry, or equivalent, clarifying that Fox television affiliates are not to be confused with Fox News. — Newslinger talk 19:16, 24 July 2020 (UTC)]
- If it's covered by WP:RS". — Rhododendrites talk \\ 19:29, 24 July 2020 (UTC)]
- If it's covered by
- (
- I don't see any reason to mention Fox affiliates on this list. It does not meet the criteria for inclusion. Perhaps we could add a discrete footnote that explains that news from affiliate stations should be evaluated individually on their own merits. - MrX 🖋 19:13, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- I like the footnote suggestion. We really haven't discussed the affiliates enough to merit an entry, but I think that a clarification that affiliates are distinct from Fox News is worth having in the entry in some form. signed, Rosguill talk 19:54, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- As long as we're being clear that the Fox News lines only applies to the national cable channel or the www.foxnews.com, and affiliates have to be evaluated wholly separately from the RFC, that's fine with me. That just brings my suggest back to 3, but that's on the basis that the talk shows were already presumed "not reliable" going into the RFC. --Masem (t) 00:36, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- Not reliable? I thought it was "no consensus". Fox Corporation owns the Fox Broadcasting Company (which includes Fox-owned and independent affiliate stations operated by Fox Television Stations LLC), Fox News Channel (cable/satellite), Fox Business Network (owned by Fox Media), and Fox Sports (complicated). Fox Broadcasting is over the air so the individual stations are subject to a completely different set of FCC rules from the cable/satellite subscription channels. Atsme Talk 📧 03:04, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- As long as we're being clear that the Fox News lines only applies to the national cable channel or the www.foxnews.com, and affiliates have to be evaluated wholly separately from the RFC, that's fine with me. That just brings my suggest back to 3, but that's on the basis that the talk shows were already presumed "not reliable" going into the RFC. --Masem (t) 00:36, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- I like the footnote suggestion. We really haven't discussed the affiliates enough to merit an entry, but I think that a clarification that affiliates are distinct from Fox News is worth having in the entry in some form. signed, Rosguill talk 19:54, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know that we really need the last one. At least not as a consequence of these discussions. They were primarily mentioned in the RfC in the context of the RfC's main questions not really applying to those affiliates. They're Fox affiliates, after all, not Fox News. I don't think I've ever even seen a substantial debate regarding treating them any differently than we do any other local TV news. I wouldn't want to just say green/reliable because it depends on the individual affiliate. Some are going to be better than others and they have independent newsrooms. So I'd say sure to the first three, and omit the fourth. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:56, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Adding to my point above, this means we need 4 lines for Fox News: Fox News talk shows (unreliable), Fox News political and science reports (no consensus so use caution), Fox News all other reporting (reliable) Fox News affiliates (reliable). Might seem overkill but the RFC closure is clear that the answer isn't simple and to be very clear, multiple lines are necessary --Masem (t) 17:54, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
FYI: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Question_about_close regarding affiliates. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 19:29, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Per the comment, I think a footnote next to Fox News (news and website)—not a sentence in the summary—would be helpful, or just not mention it at all. Heartfox (talk) 20:05, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Some thoughts
I'm having second thoughts about the entire perennial source process, and the way we are judging the "whole" despite its many "parts", such as (a) multiple broadcast stations that comprise a television network, (b) numerous individual programs that comprise a channel, and (c) various topics that comprise individual sections of an online or print publication. We are depriving ourselves access to a rich pool of resources by using a flawed rating system. POV creep is a serious issue, and I am concerned that it poses a threat to encyclopedic diversity and NPOV which is one of the 3 most important core content policies of WP. We are already dangerously close to our results being the product of Groupthink rather than reaching results from a more nuanced approach that involves critical thinking based on unbiased expert analysis and experience. It's one thing to write an article without experience, etc. but it's something entirely different if the result of such critical decisions negatively effect a RS because it was based on misinformation or misunderstanding, or the hedging of guidelines, the lack of experience and/or unawareness - give or take, whatever fits best. What I'm seeing here is that our results are a culmination of SYNTH (combining material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion) + biased POV. We're taking criticism at face value from various sources that may have a financial COI or political bias against Fox, and we're adding it all together to conclude that an entire network or channel is "unreliable". To that, add our own POV creep and favoritism or dislike for Fox's conservative programming. We held an RfC to reach a consensus in an effort to rate the entire source's reliability, despite the many parts that comprise the whole, and by doing so, we dismissed WP:RS which states: Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process. We are actually seeding bias by such a judgment call, and prejudicing an editor's choice of sources using this flawed rating system when we should be evaluating specific material published in a source that we want to include in a given article based on CONTEXT. We can't deny that liberals will dismiss a conservative source or vice versa, intentional or otherwise, and based on first impressions, it appears to be playing out here. Perhaps it's time to prepare a survey for wider community input at VPP because of the policies involved, rather than limit it to a single noticeboard. I'm certainly open to be convinced otherwise. Atsme Talk 📧 17:11, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- You made 69 edits in the RfC. Above, you tried to rehash it. It now sounds like you didn’t like the result, and so you wish to toss it and start over elsewhere. O3000 (talk) 18:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as "POV creep" and we are not in danger of creating a groupthink product. And can we please leave U.S. politics out of this? RSP has become one of the most useful content resources on Wikipedia, and for good reason: it succinctly reflects consensus from prior discussions. It's an index. This guide was never meant to be a substitute for discussion and evaluating sources in the context in which they are proposed to be used. - MrX 🖋 18:37, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- It's not "conservative programming" Fox produces. They're among the most radical of the radical right and far to the right of what would be considered "conservative" in most contexts. GPinkerton (talk) 19:45, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- That's a good point GPinkerton. They used to be ordinary right-wing (and thus a RS with a right-wing bias), but since (at least) the Obama candidature, they started sliding more and more to the right and are now radical right-wing, not truly conservative. Now that they are supporting Trump and steering his agenda, they are just a misinformation source, regardless of the left/right matter, which is consistent with Trump, as he is not consistently left/right, but consistently pushes fake news, falsehoods, and conspiracy theories, and Fox News amplifies that. -- Valjean (talk) 20:42, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- Atsme, in the close of the RfC it was stated:
That "certain participants" in part, includes your conduct during the RfC, which you appear to not have realised or acknowledged. The Daily Mail and the Sun are the top 2 best selling newspapers in the UK, and yet both were deprecated, one wonders if the Wikipedia userbase was more British skewed whether there would have been more protest. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:57, 25 July 2020 (UTC)There was a very large amount of what we considered to be bludgeoning from certain participants of this RFC. While there is no formal limit to the maximum number of times one may comment on a given discussion, replying with the same argument(s) to multiple participants holding an opposite viewpoint becomes extremely tedious (bordering on tendentious).
- @Hemiauchenia: I doubt that. People that build encyclopaedias and people that read The Sun or the Mail are non-overlapping sets. The Sun is also about one tenth the price of any other newspaper, which explains its continuing high rate of circulation. Neither paper is anything like as right-wing as Fox, though both are as unreliable/nefarious. GPinkerton (talk) 00:27, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think you would be suprised. While has ameliorated under the current editor Talk:Death_of_Keith_Blakelock#Please_stop_edit-warring_a_deprecated_source_into_the_article and the numerous complaints on User_talk:David_Gerard including by Cassianto (see User_talk:David_Gerard#Your_war_on_the_Daily_Mail, who has written 17 FAs. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:41, 26 July 2020 (UTC)]
- @Hemiauchenia: I'm not saying they're not very right-wing, I'm just saying Fox is more extreme. I know all about the Daily Mail and its awful tub-thumping but it would never support, say, the abolition of free universal healthcare, which I believe is considered a kind of communism in the neo-McCarthyite Fox newsroom. GPinkerton (talk) 00:51, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- May I offer an observation in passing, being British? The Sun and Daily Mail undoubtedly lie on occasion, deliberately, in exchange for circulation boosts. So does a lot of British journalism. Circulation is a powerful incentive when the consequence is trivial and far in the future. They also, and in the main, report factually when they're not making it up for scandalous effect. It's a matter of judgment whether a given report is truthful news or not. Flagging up disputed source is fair enough as a warning but it doesn't mean a report is false. You can be pretty certain it will be biased, which is another matter, but it may well be factual. Flagging sources as biased would cover far too high a proportion of citations on Wikipedia, the bar has to be higher than mere predictable repetitive bias which would necessarily include stalwart factual newspapers of record like the Guardian as well as the tabloid trash - and I say that as a Guardian subscriber. JohnHarris (talk) 09:37, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- GPinkerton, Fox News is definitely more, and more consistently, biased, but the debate lumped in Fox affiliates (which are not Fox News), most of which are entirely normal local journalism. But the Daily Mail had a significant problem under Dacre of simply making shit up, including fabricated quotes, and Fox generally doesn't do that. They merely give airtime to people who do. Guy (help!) 22:59, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Hemiauchenia: I'm not saying they're not very right-wing, I'm just saying Fox is more extreme. I know all about the Daily Mail and its awful tub-thumping but it would never support, say, the abolition of free universal healthcare, which I believe is considered a kind of communism in the neo-McCarthyite Fox newsroom. GPinkerton (talk) 00:51, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think you would be suprised. While has ameliorated under the current editor
- @Hemiauchenia: I doubt that. People that build encyclopaedias and people that read The Sun or the Mail are non-overlapping sets. The Sun is also about one tenth the price of any other newspaper, which explains its continuing high rate of circulation. Neither paper is anything like as right-wing as Fox, though both are as unreliable/nefarious. GPinkerton (talk) 00:27, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- WP:BLUDGEONing, and you are obviously one of the worst offenders in that.
- But the fundamental problem here is the asymmetric polarisation of US media. We have a situation where one side accuses the other of "fake news" while sharing the shit out of literal fake news. Fox moved sharply to the right in 2015/16 as Breitbart started taking clicks, shares, and ad revenue from them. OANN has outflanked Fox on the more extreme right. And the core of the problem is uncritical defence of Trump. Guy (help!) 22:56, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Guy, you pinged me here, so I'll respond to your misinformation about me per your comment: "You failed to get the result you want". I actually did get the results I wanted except for one minor caveat, and if I was concerned about "not getting my way", as you put it, I would have challenged the close instead of awarding 3 Closer's Barnstars. There were at least 5 other editors dancing the bludgeoning dance, so you need to stop singling me out to denigrate me because that fits the textbook definition of WP:HOUNDING, not to mention your prejudice against me. I also find it interesting that other editors opened side discussions during the RfC, and nothing was said to them, but the minute I started one, the flood gates opened. I have already had a discussion with Rosguill, and also communicated with Newslinger, both of whom have always been very polite and accommodating. I also expressed my concerns to you back when you first started down this bumpy road of rating whole sources and entire networks and you were doing it long before the Fox RfC was initiated, so my concerns predate the Fox RfC. Atsme Talk 📧 02:07, 27 July 2020 (UTC)]
- Guy, you pinged me here, so I'll respond to your misinformation about me per your comment: "You failed to get the result you want". I actually did get the results I wanted except for one minor caveat, and if I was concerned about "not getting my way", as you put it, I would have challenged the close instead of awarding 3 Closer's Barnstars. There were at least 5 other editors dancing the bludgeoning dance, so you need to stop singling me out to denigrate me because that fits the textbook definition of
@Atsme: - We can't deny that liberals will dismiss a conservative source or vice versa
- so why is the Wall Street Journal still green then? Are there concerted efforts to remove it? Why not? starship.paint (talk) 06:52, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Starship - I'm not going to comment about the WSJ because former owners Sue Bancroft, and Ed Jones are close acquaintenances, which skirts COI. Atsme Talk 📧 02:07, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- One could also mention The Times and staunchly conservative The Telegraph, and their Sunday-paper stablemates, and others besides rightly considered "reliable" ... GPinkerton (talk) 18:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- I would rate The Times higher than the Telegraph though, the fact that they have repeatedly promoted climate change denial, censored their reporting to appease their advertiser HSBC as well as their re-printing of Chinese propaganda puts them on the same tier as The Independent imo. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:13, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- I'd say the most reliable paper in the UK is the FT. The Times is pretty good, with a right bias; the Grauniad is pretty good, with a left bias. If the Times and the Grauniad agree, then it's probably true. The Torygraph has been on a downward slide for years (it was very Brexity, for example, to the extent of denying obvious facts). And guess which periodical I subscribe to... Guy (help!) 23:03, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- I would rate The Times higher than the Telegraph though, the fact that they have repeatedly promoted climate change denial, censored their reporting to appease their advertiser HSBC as well as their re-printing of Chinese propaganda puts them on the same tier as The Independent imo. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:13, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
How to search Wikipedia use of sources...?
Is there a search method to find instances of a source used across Wikipedia? Is it possible, say, to search Wikipedia’s use of a certain site or book or article across articles? X0bN14Rb (talk) 00:57, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hi ]
insource:parameter in the search box to find articles that include links to a certain website. There is also Special:LinkSearch, although it includes search results from all namespaces (including discussion pages) and requires separate searches for HTTP and HTTPS links. The {{RSourceSummary}} and {{Domain uses}} templates might be helpful. Book citations are more difficult to locate, but a good starting point would be to search for the book's title (in quotes) or the book's ISBN. — Newslinger talk 01:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
Flagging references in Wikipedia articles about the source itself
I looked up WorldNetDaily. It's covered in "deprecated source" flags on all the citations to WorldNetDaily itself. This is clearly a mistaken use of the flag. If the flags are being placed by bots then the bots need fixing. If they're a consequence of the instructions in the Reliable Sources page then the instructions need clarification. 2A04:2140:2001:BC01:5D3F:902C:7A03:1CEF (talk) 09:19, 26 July 2020 (UTC) (sorry, not logged in, mea culpa: JohnHarris (talk) 09:20, 26 July 2020 (UTC))
- Why do you believe citations to WND should not be tagged as deprecated in the WND article? - MrX 🖋 10:51, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- I apologize for being so inexplicit, I had thought the reason was transparent. It is impossible to discuss the disputes and controversies relating to the abysmal nonsense the website spouts without providing instances of disputes, with primary examples to back up the underlying controversy. Those primary examples only exist on the site. The citations are therefore needed and there will be several of them. The content of the site is the subject of the article's text at that point. Flagging the website as dubious is a metastatement rather than a warning in this context, and doing so repetitively isn't helping anyone at all - it just makes the page ugly without conveying helpful information. As for it being a matter for the individual talk page (below), no - I raised the issue here because the issue is about the shotgun way the citation is being used, not the article. JohnHarris (talk) 11:42, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- It seems like a cosmetic issue, but you could simply remove the tags from the article, or discuss it with Newslinger and JzG on the article talk page if there is a dispute. - MrX 🖋 15:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- I feel like this has to be decided on a cite-by-cite basis. An unusable source can occasionally be cited for uncontroversial statements about itself per WP:ABOUTSELF, but there are a ton of limitations on that, and at a glance several of the cites in that article seem to violate its restrictions (being exceptional claims, making claims about third parties, making claims about events not directly related to the source, and so on; it is also used a lot, which you're not supposed to do.) It would be best to find secondary sources when possible in any case, so at best the depreciated tags would just be replaced with secondary-source-needed tags. --Aquillion (talk) 10:33, 28 July 2020 (UTC)]
- I apologize for being so inexplicit, I had thought the reason was transparent. It is impossible to discuss the disputes and controversies relating to the abysmal nonsense the website spouts without providing instances of disputes, with primary examples to back up the underlying controversy. Those primary examples only exist on the site. The citations are therefore needed and there will be several of them. The content of the site is the subject of the article's text at that point. Flagging the website as dubious is a metastatement rather than a warning in this context, and doing so repetitively isn't helping anyone at all - it just makes the page ugly without conveying helpful information. As for it being a matter for the individual talk page (below), no - I raised the issue here because the issue is about the shotgun way the citation is being used, not the article. JohnHarris (talk) 11:42, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- This is a matter for the WND talk page (where someone else has brought this up). FWIW I agree that either the source shouldn't be used or it should be used without that tag. The only real purpose of that tag is if it's being used in a questionable way, not for basic facts about itself if there's consensus to use it for that purpose. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:03, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
SPLC
Discussion of the question Levivich is asking
Why is SPLC listed as green? I'm not seeing a discussion that was closed as "generally reliable" and many of them seem to suggest the opposite, e.g. [4]. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 20:25, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
I believe that before seeking to change something, one should first understand why it is the way it is. So that's all I'm asking. Please, if you want to discuss whether it should be green, or how RSP works, or accuse other editors of "sour grapes", or anything other than "why is SPLC listed as green", please do that in the subsection below, and keep this one for the simple question: why is it listed green? Thanks, Levivich [dubious – discuss] 23:48, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- The Southern Poverty Law Center is classified as "generally reliable" because that was its original designation on this list, and there has not yet been consensus to change it. While the discussion you linked, #16, is closer to "no consensus", past discussions hovered somewhere between "generally reliable" and "no consensus", most visibly in discussion #14. In a five-tier system, the SPLC would be a tier 2 source. Since discussion #16 hints at a downward trend in editors' opinions of the SPLC, I recommend starting an RfC on the reliability of the SPLC. Our reliability standards have increased since 2008, and this may affect the SPLC as well. — Newslinger talk 02:14, 27 July 2020 (UTC)]
- Thanks, Newslinger. Was 2008 when it was originally listed? Also thanks for linking to the five tier discussion, that's interesting. Has that been revisited since? Levivich [dubious – discuss] 02:27, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- No problem. 2008 is just the year that discussion #1 took place. The entry for the SPLC has not been discussed in depth, but there was an edit war in February 2019 which is the reason I listed the SPLC as one of the two "controversially classified sources" on the banner at the top of this talk page. While it is possible to change the status of entries through a discussion on this talk page, in practice, if there's any sort of controversy or disagreement about what the entry should say, the discussion is continued on the noticeboard for a fresh look at the source (e.g. Jewish Virtual Library and PinkNews). Feel free to start an RfC on the SPLC. I could also do it myself if you prefer, but I've been trying to encourage list-related participation from other editors. — Newslinger talk 02:56, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Also, if you meant to ask about whether the five-tier system has been revisited, it has not. The format of this list has been stable for a year and a half, and I would expect resistance to any major changes. — Newslinger talk 03:03, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks again. Yes, I was asking about the five-tier proposal. Is there an easy way to tell when an RSP entry was added? Levivich [dubious – discuss] 03:08, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Not yet, besides watchlisting this page and checking the page history. There is an editnotice that reminds editors to include a descriptive edit summary with each change to the list. I am working on a project that will make the information on this list more accessible, and will have more to announce in the near future. — Newslinger talk 03:12, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks again. Yes, I was asking about the five-tier proposal. Is there an easy way to tell when an RSP entry was added? Levivich [dubious – discuss] 03:08, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, Newslinger. Was 2008 when it was originally listed? Also thanks for linking to the five tier discussion, that's interesting. Has that been revisited since? Levivich [dubious – discuss] 02:27, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Discussion of anything else
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- @Levivich: The banner at the top of this talkpage states:
Feel free to call a RfC if you think that is necessary (which I would support) I called a RfC on the ADL for a similar reason. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:27, 26 July 2020 (UTC)Fox News (RSP entry) and the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) (RSP entry) are the most controversially classified sources in this list. The most recent Fox News RfC is from 2020, and there has never been an RfC for the SPLC. If you disagree with the classifications of these sources, please start an RfC (request for comment) on the reliable sources noticeboard to determine the current consensus instead of directly editing your preferred classification into the list. If you are unfamiliar with RfCs, please ask here, and other editors will be glad to assist.
- Hemiauchenia, thanks, I know that. I meant my question literally: why is it listed green? Especially if there's never been an RFC, how did it get on this page? At some point, someone added it and someone made it green, and I'm too lazy to go diff diving to find out who and when, and I care more about why, that is, what is the logic behind it being listed here and listed as green. So I'm asking: why is it green?
- I guess a second question is: who decided to add a banner saying "If you disagree with the classifications of these sources, please start an RfC", as opposed to following our usual rule, which is onus for inclusion, not exclusion. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 20:32, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Obviously this stems from the discussion above about the coloring of Fox News. If "no consensus on reliability" = yellow (makes sense), then we need to apply that standard to all the entries here, not just Fox News. Which means everything is yellow until and unless there is an RFC that results in consensus on reliability, in which case it's green, or that results in consensus on unreliability, in which case it's red. Until one of those two outcomes, everything should be yellow. To color it green without an RFC strikes me as very misleading to editors, who will assume it's backed by an RFC. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 20:36, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- False equivalency. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 21:11, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- There are 16 linked discussions. That more than meets the inclusion criteria, consistent with every other entry on the list. There is no requirement for discussions to be formally closed. Also, I have personally participated in dozens of talk page discussions where SPLC was challenged for reliability and the consensus that it is generally reliable has always been upheld. - MrX 🖋 21:12, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- In those 16 discussions, there is no consensus for "generally reliable". For example, in this 2019 discussion I linked to, it seems half the editors thought it was generally unreliable. Can you link to discussions where SPLC was challenged for reliability and the consensus was that it is generally reliable? Levivich [dubious – discuss] 21:17, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Obviously this stems from the discussion above about the coloring of Fox News. If "no consensus on reliability" = yellow (makes sense), then we need to apply that standard to all the entries here, not just Fox News. Which means everything is yellow until and unless there is an RFC that results in consensus on reliability, in which case it's green, or that results in consensus on unreliability, in which case it's red. Until one of those two outcomes, everything should be yellow. To color it green without an RFC strikes me as very misleading to editors, who will assume it's backed by an RFC. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 20:36, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich, SPLC is pretty much the most widely cited source (by RS that we in turn cite) on hate groups in America. When I see SPLC cited, it is always with attribution. Guy (help!) 22:51, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
This page is based on discussions, not just rfcs. You can argue the status quo interpretation of part discussions is incorrect, but a formal rfc isn't required for listing here. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 21:21, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- That doesn't explain why it's green. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 21:27, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Lev - ONUS is for inclusion and a rating. SPLC is a group of lawyers who are fighting for social justice (civil rights, racial equality) which makes them an advocacy - a good one, but an advocacy nonetheless. The Britannica states: "SPLC’s activities have long generated both widespread acclaim and ongoing political controversy. The organization has been accused of financial mismanagement, misleading fund-raising methods, and institutionalized racism. In addition it has been charged with exaggerating the threat of racism for purposes of fund-raising, of wrongfully applying the term hate group to legitimate organizations, and of promoting a left-wing “politically correct” agenda under the guise of civil rights. It requires caution, intext attribution, and context is highly important. It should not automatically be considered a generally RS. Atsme Talk 📧 22:48, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Britannica says it has been accused. Nothing more. Accusations are often made baselessly, as in this case. GPinkerton (talk) 22:59, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Nope. See CNN, NYTimes, WaPo, Newsweek...and on and on. You won't find it if you don't look for it. Atsme Talk 📧 02:24, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting you have to look out of a special Overton window? I see nothing whatever in those articles that suggests their reporting is unreliable, or has a "left-wing “politically correct” agenda" or is "guising" as a civil rights organization. GPinkerton (talk) 03:13, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- I was trying to be helpful by providing links to several high quality RS, including EB, a long standing encyclopedia that is a reputable tertiary source with "real editorial staff, and high quality articles." Your argument is that we must prove a negative based on the logic that allegations/criticism mean nothing or they are baseless, and I might even agree if the claims were not originating from employees/whistleblowers inside SPLC which were followed by: "changes in its leadership and a company-wide review." Regardless, the homerun argument is WP:RSSELF which clearly states: Never use self-published sources as independent sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer. We actually don't need an RfC to figure out SPLC is a self-published source or that it's an advocacy. Atsme Talk 📧 13:23, 27 July 2020 (UTC)]
- RSSELF clearly does not apply to the SPLC. O3000 (talk) 14:28, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- If the source cited is a feature or story published in SPLC, then it certainly does apply. If SPLC is cited by a 3rd party RS source, then see the ArbCom principle for BLP inclusion: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Vivaldi#Quotation of material from an unreliable source states: 8) Quotation of material from an unreliable source by a source generally considered reliable does not render the information acceptable for inclusion in Wikipedia. It's a simple 1+1 equation for BLP - "Never use self-published sources as independent sources about living people..." + Quotation of material from an unreliable source..." = find a better source to cite. Atsme Talk 📧 15:25, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Again, SPLC is not a self-published source. Self-published books and newsletters, personal pages on social networking sites, tweets, and posts on Internet forums are all examples of self-published media. - MrX 🖋 15:33, 27 July 2020 (UTC)]
- Again...yes it is - see Wikipedia:Identifying and using self-published works which includes examples of SPS - Business, charitable, and personal websites.
- Who is the author or creator of the work? A: Southern Poverty Law Center - it is their website
- Who is the publisher of the work? A: Southern Poverty Law Center per Our Issues; their employees also write features. Their employees/executives conduct research & investigation, and they litigate. Atsme Talk 📧 16:36, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Um the NYTimes would be "self-published" under that criteria. nableezy - 22:00, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Self-published sources can be reliable, and they can be used (but not for third-party claims about living people). See my comments above. Atsme Talk 📧 16:36, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- The author and publisher are not the same person. Self-published means a person who is both author and publisher. SPLC spent $36 million on salaries and benefits last year and has offices in four states. Yes they write some features. We don’t generally use them. We also don’t use NYTimes editorials. SPLC is no more self-published than the NYTimes. O3000 (talk) 16:48, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- I would assume that the author of this page is someone under the supervision of the organization itself. It would be highly unusual for an organization to allow an independent source to author the "about" page on its official website. Likewise this is self-published. The key issue is whether the employees are told what to write. The writers need to be independent of the publisher, and not be in fear of getting fired for writing something the publisher doesn't want to read. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:38, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Well, obviously the NYTimes and SPLC both have supervisors and can both fire writers. This isn’t related to self-publishing. It could be discussed on ]
- ^^^^Exactly. There is no difference. - MrX 🖋 17:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- re: "
The author and publisher are not the same person. Self-published means a person who is both author and publisher.
" But corporations are people too.
- The supreme court said so. So we should be on the lookout for corporations that are both author and publisher. wbm1058 (talk) 21:05, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- re: "
- ^^^^Exactly. There is no difference. - MrX 🖋 17:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Well, obviously the NYTimes and SPLC both have supervisors and can both fire writers. This isn’t related to self-publishing. It could be discussed on ]
- I would assume that the author of this page is someone under the supervision of the organization itself. It would be highly unusual for an organization to allow an independent source to author the "about" page on its official website. Likewise this is self-published. The key issue is whether the employees are told what to write. The writers need to be independent of the publisher, and not be in fear of getting fired for writing something the publisher doesn't want to read. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:38, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Atsme, but since SPLC is not a self-published source, that is not an issue. Guy (help!) 19:36, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Reply to ping - I have already presented a solid argument. Also see the comment above by wbm1058 because he gets it, too. The website, it's staff/employees/directors/executives/writers are not independent of the organization. An organization's website is self-published, and when it provides information about the organization, it is non-independent. The SPLC website publishes information about the organization's work, accomplishments, research, litigation, various publications, features and articles written by their employees about SPLC's work. They admit here that they published the field guide that cost the organization over $3 million - they are responsible for their authors/published work/research/conclusions/allegations, etc.: The Southern Poverty Law Center was wrong to include Maajid Nawaz and the Quilliam Foundation in our Field Guide to Anti-Muslim Extremists. Since we published the Field Guide, we have taken the time to do more research and have consulted with human rights advocates we respect. They are an advocacy, and I stand by everything I've said. Please do not ping me again if the plan is to prolong the logical fallacy that SPLC is not a SPS. Happy editing! Atsme Talk 📧 21:03, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- The author and publisher are not the same person. Self-published means a person who is both author and publisher. SPLC spent $36 million on salaries and benefits last year and has offices in four states. Yes they write some features. We don’t generally use them. We also don’t use NYTimes editorials. SPLC is no more self-published than the NYTimes. O3000 (talk) 16:48, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Again...yes it is - see Wikipedia:Identifying and using self-published works which includes examples of SPS - Business, charitable, and personal websites.
- Again, SPLC is not a self-published source.
- If the source cited is a feature or story published in SPLC, then it certainly does apply. If SPLC is cited by a 3rd party RS source, then see the ArbCom principle for BLP inclusion: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Vivaldi#Quotation of material from an unreliable source states: 8) Quotation of material from an unreliable source by a source generally considered reliable does not render the information acceptable for inclusion in Wikipedia. It's a simple 1+1 equation for BLP - "Never use self-published sources as independent sources about living people..." + Quotation of material from an unreliable source..." = find a better source to cite. Atsme Talk 📧 15:25, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- RSSELF clearly does not apply to the SPLC. O3000 (talk) 14:28, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- I was trying to be helpful by providing links to several high quality RS, including EB, a long standing encyclopedia that is a reputable tertiary source with "real editorial staff, and high quality articles." Your argument is that we must prove a negative based on the logic that allegations/criticism mean nothing or they are baseless, and I might even agree if the claims were not originating from employees/whistleblowers inside SPLC which were followed by: "changes in its leadership and a company-wide review." Regardless, the homerun argument is
- Are you suggesting you have to look out of a special Overton window? I see nothing whatever in those articles that suggests their reporting is unreliable, or has a "left-wing “politically correct” agenda" or is "guising" as a civil rights organization. GPinkerton (talk) 03:13, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Nope. See CNN, NYTimes, WaPo, Newsweek...and on and on. You won't find it if you don't look for it. Atsme Talk 📧 02:24, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- How horrible that experts in the law have fought for social justice by using the law. SPLC is cited by so many high-quality sources that the fact that we are even having this discussion boggles the mind. I'm guessing sour grapes is a factor. - MrX 🖋 23:25, 26 July 2020 (UTC)]
- Britannica says it has been accused. Nothing more. Accusations are often made baselessly, as in this case. GPinkerton (talk) 22:59, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Lev - ONUS is for inclusion and a rating. SPLC is a group of lawyers who are fighting for social justice (civil rights, racial equality) which makes them an advocacy - a good one, but an advocacy nonetheless. The Britannica states: "SPLC’s activities have long generated both widespread acclaim and ongoing political controversy. The organization has been accused of financial mismanagement, misleading fund-raising methods, and institutionalized racism. In addition it has been charged with exaggerating the threat of racism for purposes of fund-raising, of wrongfully applying the term hate group to legitimate organizations, and of promoting a left-wing “politically correct” agenda under the guise of civil rights. It requires caution, intext attribution, and context is highly important. It should not automatically be considered a generally RS. Atsme Talk 📧 22:48, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
The references to
WP:ONUS are empty wikilawyering here. This is not a question of verifiability in an article; it's a projectspace page. It's been in the page as green for fully two years now. If you think it should change, you can argue that the interpretation of the various discussions of SPLC (or whatever) by the various people who added it, added to it, etc. for a couple years were wrong and make a case for how it should be represented. That's all well and good and could be a discussion here or an RfC or whatever. There is no "onus" on the person who added it years ago to explain why the status quo version is the way it is. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 00:08, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
An entry for Ad Fontes Media
Ad Fontes Media has been discussed enough to warrant an entry, see 1 2 3 4(and many other incidental mentions). Can we workshop an entry here? I think the general concensus is that it is generally unreliable, but I would like to discuss what the specific text should be used in the entry. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:09, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and done it anyway. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:08, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hemiauchenia, I'm not sure I agree with your summary. While the majority of editors have argued that it is unreliable, some have argued that it may sometimes be usable with attribution. The current summary writes that latter camp out of the equation signed, Rosguill talk 20:44, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Rosguill: I assume this is in reference to the 3rd discussion? One of the users who suggested it was use as attributable (Brian K Horton in his only non-Daily Mail related comment) was banned for sockpuppetry and so therefore I assign his opinion no due weight. Only one other editor in the 3rd discussion expressed the opinion that it usable with attribution. I thought the concensus of most other participants in all of the discussions combined weighed against the handful of editors who considered it usable with attribution. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:58, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hemiauchenia, in the third discussion, PaleoNeonate also suggested that it was usable with attribution and Valjean said it was full-on reliable, with Guy adding that he considers it to be useful but not directly citeable. Two editors called it unreliable outright. In the fourth discussion, feminist argued that it was usable if cited by other more reliable sources, and Guy repeated his position, with an additional editor echoing Guy. I think we're leaning towards unreliable, but I would not call that a consensus. signed, Rosguill talk 21:04, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Guy said: "No. Ad Fontes is not a RS. It's a useful guide when assessing sources but is not in and of itself reliable". As far as I understand, RSP is about whether a source can be used in article space not about whether it is a good guide for discussions about other sources, Guy also stated in another discussion that "I would not cite it on the encyclopaedia". Feminist's comment was "Usable if quoted in a third-party source. So, hypothetically, if the New York Times cites the Ad Fontes Chart's "skews right" rating of One America News in a news article about OANN, we can use the NYT article as a source to support a statement which reads 'The source is rated "skews right" by Ad Fontes Media'", it means that Ad Fontes Media should only be mentioned if a reliable third party gives the rating significance, which is not the same as suggesting that Ad Fontes ratings can be directly cited with attribution. Valjean's comment did not mention attribution at all. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:32, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Valjean's comment didn't mention attribution, but I think that "usable with attribution" is an appropriate middle ground to mention. There's clearly little support for general reliability, but editors that argued for that position still pull the overall consensus away from a blanket statement of unreliability, provided that the arguments aren't obviously ludicrous. Similarly, feminist's argument is too nuanced and too much of a minority for it to make sense to quote it verbatim, but nonetheless suggests that a blanket statement of unreliability is not appropriate. signed, Rosguill talk 21:42, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- In the Wonkette discussion, sche suggested that "No. To say, in the article body, that "Ad Fontes Media considers Wonkette left-wing" would probably be alright if other sources covered (and hence attached weight to) Ad Fontes' view of Wonkette. To cite them as a source for a claim in wikivoice that "Wonkette is far left" is not, for reasons Aquillon lays out (namely that it involves OR [mis?]interpreting their image, and it's also unclear that they are reliable)." This argument is very similar to feminist's. I would be okay with the addition of "some editors consider Ad Fontes ratings usable with attribution if reliable third party sources have covered the specific rating" or a similar wording. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:55, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Valjean's comment didn't mention attribution, but I think that "usable with attribution" is an appropriate middle ground to mention. There's clearly little support for general reliability, but editors that argued for that position still pull the overall consensus away from a blanket statement of unreliability, provided that the arguments aren't obviously ludicrous. Similarly, feminist's argument is too nuanced and too much of a minority for it to make sense to quote it verbatim, but nonetheless suggests that a blanket statement of unreliability is not appropriate. signed, Rosguill talk 21:42, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Guy said: "No. Ad Fontes is not a RS. It's a useful guide when assessing sources but is not in and of itself reliable". As far as I understand, RSP is about whether a source can be used in article space not about whether it is a good guide for discussions about other sources, Guy also stated in another discussion that "I would not cite it on the encyclopaedia". Feminist's comment was "Usable if quoted in a third-party source. So, hypothetically, if the New York Times cites the Ad Fontes Chart's "skews right" rating of One America News in a news article about OANN, we can use the NYT article as a source to support a statement which reads 'The source is rated "skews right" by Ad Fontes Media'", it means that Ad Fontes Media should only be mentioned if a reliable third party gives the rating significance, which is not the same as suggesting that Ad Fontes ratings can be directly cited with attribution. Valjean's comment did not mention attribution at all. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:32, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hemiauchenia, in the third discussion, PaleoNeonate also suggested that it was usable with attribution and Valjean said it was full-on reliable, with Guy adding that he considers it to be useful but not directly citeable. Two editors called it unreliable outright. In the fourth discussion, feminist argued that it was usable if cited by other more reliable sources, and Guy repeated his position, with an additional editor echoing Guy. I think we're leaning towards unreliable, but I would not call that a consensus. signed, Rosguill talk 21:04, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Rosguill: I assume this is in reference to the 3rd discussion? One of the users who suggested it was use as attributable (Brian K Horton in his only non-Daily Mail related comment) was banned for sockpuppetry and so therefore I assign his opinion no due weight. Only one other editor in the 3rd discussion expressed the opinion that it usable with attribution. I thought the concensus of most other participants in all of the discussions combined weighed against the handful of editors who considered it usable with attribution. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:58, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hemiauchenia, I'm not sure I agree with your summary. While the majority of editors have argued that it is unreliable, some have argued that it may sometimes be usable with attribution. The current summary writes that latter camp out of the equation signed, Rosguill talk 20:44, 28 July 2020 (UTC)