Talk:7.5×55mm Swiss

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PC88 is a cut-tubular powder, not a square flake, see this photo: https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13600081_254261874956648_2488097096489363466_n.jpg?oh=c310acb5c2d2b5f07006e6211f9597e5&oe=5879076B

Also, it is smokeless and not semismokeless - we actually fired some: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5VCbIfsmAQ

(Bloke on the Range, 11.09.2016) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.55.184.226 (talk) 07:52, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your input. The flakes you saw in the article were extracted from GP90/23 according to the original French description. It seems the Swiss changed propellants in their service ammunition. The article already mentioned the rauchschwacher (literally "low smoke") propellant used from the onset. Somehow some Anglo American sources think semi smokeless instead of smokeless was meant in German. You extracted cut tubular shaped propellant (Röhrenpulver in German) from your GP90/03 cartridges. If that photo ids not copyrighted, please upload your photo to the GP90 Commons section. Nice to see vintage service rifles still being used. I would not use 100⁺ years old ammunition as propellants can decompose through time. I know chemical engineers who test the condition of propellants of stockpiled ammunition for armies to ensure the safety and functionality of those stockpiles.--Francis Flinch (talk) 09:57, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's known that the GP90/23 used a different powder. That picture of PC88 isn't mine, and I can't find an upload function, but I'll park a photo of mine here: http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/attachments/dscn5368-jpg.259651/ no copyright, anyone can edit and use it.

(Bloke on the Range, 17.09.2016) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.55.184.226 (talk) 10:30, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for contributing the photo. I presumed it is a GP90/03 cartridge and hope it is not contested by copyright checks some Wikipedians perform. You can register as a Wikipedia editor and use the same user name (would Bloke on the Range be a good username for you?) and password to use Wikipedia Commons. Uploading content to Wiki Commons has the advantage that it can be easily accessed by non English editors. The picture of the GP90/23 powder came from a very active French Wikipedia uploder and editor regarding Swiss service arms, see:https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Bouterolle&offset=&limit=500&target=Bouterolle--Francis Flinch (talk) 10:08, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The sidebar info listed this cartridge as being involved in WWII., the Suez Crisis, the Algerian War, and the Vietnam War. I think somebody had this cartridge mixed up with

]

12.7mm popular in Europe

12.7mm was the most popular rifle cartridge in Europe at the time... What? 12.7mm is .50 cal and is a relatively new calibre. This needs to be changed but I would love to see the reasoning for putting it in.

Big bore calibers were used by many European militaries up to the late 19th century. Look at the service rifle and Vetterli rifle articles to see the larger bullet diameters used preceding the more modern service rifle chamberings. The Vetterli for example fired the 10.4×38Rmm cartridge that preceded the first 7.5 Swiss iteration for the Schmidt-Rubin Model 1889 rile.--Francis Flinch (talk) 13:00, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is some discussion on the talk:list of rifle cartridges page about the proper name for this cartridge. Does someone know definitively if this is the "7.5 x 55 Schmidt-Rubin" or the "7.5 mm Swiss" or something else even? Arthurrh 20:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vihtavuori reloading tables lists it as 7.5x55 Swiss (GP31) --Boris Barowski 14:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You mean GP11, right? I don't think I've ever seen it called GP31, and GP11 is what the boxes of Swiss surplus ammo are labelled as. 71.203.209.0 05:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

check for yourself: VT rifle reloading data 2006 --Boris Barowski 12:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dunno where Vihtavouri is getting GP31 from, that's the only place I've seen it marked as such. Tengu99 19:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See also Headspace gauges and 7.5x55 History (in German) though this one says it doesn't know why CIP calls it the GP31, which leads me to believe it's CIP making that designation. If anyone has a CIP reference, maybe they can look it up. Arthurrh 19:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, perhaps they're giving it that designation to indicate that it's made for & safe for use in K-31s as opposed to S-R rifles that fired GP90? I'll ask around. Tengu99 06:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a plan. I've ordered CIP information which should be here in a week or so. Feel free to remind me if I don't check back on it. Arthurrh 07:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On http://www.lima-wiederladetechnik.de/Patronen/7,5x55-Schweiz.htm you can find an elaborate discussion on the confusing nomenclature in German. For those who have trouble reading German the essence of the discussions on that webpage. There where several versions produced of this cartridge. According to Swiss discussion participants in CIP nomenclature the cartridge is named 7,5 x 55 Swiss GP 31 or 7,5 x 55 Swiss, names nobody in Switzerland itself ever used. On the CIP's CD-ROM (Version 2003) only the 7,5 x 55 Swiss is mentioned. Swiss is no CIP member state and hence does not recognize any CIP rulings and proofed its military 7,5 x 55 rifles chambered in the most recent version of their service cartridge (GP11) at 150% of their Pmax piezo pressure. CIP rates the 7,5 x 55 Swiss (GP11) at 380 MPa. To add to the confusion the cartridge gets “Schmidt-Rubin” (Swiss rifle and cartridge designers) added in some countries. In Switzerland the contemporary cartridge is know as GP11 and under the name GP11 you can find the cartridge in the German version of Wikipedia. A Swiss GP31 cartridge does not exist, only a K31 carbine. Vihtavouri probably intended to indicate that 7,5 x 55 Swiss GP 31 is safe to used in the K31 carbine. 7.5 x 55 Swiss cartridges/GP11 (to take the 4 variaties into account) could be a nice compromise to get out of this nomenclature crisis. To make things more confusing look at

Gw Pat.90 were you can read that the new GP90 (a Swiss 5.56 mm NATO variant)is the current Swiss service cartridge. Francis Flinch 12:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply

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Copy-and-paste rename

I've fixed the copy-and-paste rename that was performed on this article. I am not endorsing one name or the other, but please do not perform any more copy-and-paste renames. Move articles using the "move" button. TomTheHand (talk) 19:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where does the Schmidt Rubin part in the article name come from, besides Rudolf Schmidt developed a rifle around 1898 that used Eduard Rubin's cartridge and hence created the Schmidt Rubin Model 1889 service rifle system for the Swiss Army?

I only could find a 7.5x55mm Swiss (7.5x55 Schmidt Rubin) article by Chuck Hawks. Mr. Hawks thinks these cartridges where always imported from Europe to the US. Maybe some US ammunition importer/seller once added the Schmidt Rubin part and others copied this, but I could not find any European source using the Schmidt Rubin addition. To my best knowledge in Switzerland the cartridge is know as GP90, GP 90/03, GP90/23 (for historic rifles) or GP11 (its more recent Swiss military designation) and in the rest of Europe it is know as 7,5 x 55 Swiss.

In the

article it becomes clear Col. Schmidt refused to redesign the Model 1889 action. On November 3, 1892, Col. Vogelsang was assigned the task of designing three rifles with improved actions. This resulted in the Schmidt-Rubin Model 1896 rifle that replaced the Schmidt-Rubin 1889 Model rifle

With the introduction of the Model 1897 Kadet rifle the Swiss ceased adding Schmidt-Rubin to their newly designed rifle nomenclature. The Schmidt-Rubin addition only remained being used to designate a modernized variant of the Schmidt-Rubin 1896 rifle. Those Schmidt-Rubin 1896/11 rifles where adapted to fire GP11 cartridges. Source: The Schmidt-Rubin Series (elaborate article)

Francis Flinch (talk) 11:08, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

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Service life of the M1889

The 1889 only left army service in 1934, when it was finally withdrawn from "landwehr" (third-line) units - see Bundesblatt: Botschaft 2931, 17 March 1933, German: http://www.swisswaffen.com/sw-getimg.php?I=a6o9tkld0qch&LP=ST3 English translation: http://www.swisswaffen.com/sw-getimg.php?I=ap7ndxta0r27&LP=ST3

They were then taken out of store during WW2 and given to the Ortswehr, the equivalent of the Home Guard.

Had WW1 gone live for Switzerland, a large number of front-line units would have been armed with the 1889.

(Bloke on the Range, 17.09.2016)

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"Long after the discontinuation of the Schmidt–Rubin Model 1889 rifle in the Swiss Armed Forces the GP90/03 round was updated in 1923 and called the GP90/23, for use in shooting competitions." The first phrase is completely wrong - the 1889 was in Landsturm (3rd line) usage until withdrawn in 1934: see here - https://swisswaffen.com/modell-1931-carbine/k31/sw-getimg.php/files/modell-1931-carbine/k31-bundesblatt-botschaft-2931-einfuehrung-des-karabiners-mod-31-17-maerz/a6o9tkld0qch

I've also never seen any suggestion that GP90/23 was for use in shooting competitions. If this was the case, Karl Zimmermann would have mentioned it in his wartime book. Instead, the only mention it gets is as "smaller amounts of jacketed ammunition of later manufacture" when discussing ammunition for the 1889 rifles issued out to the Ortswehr (home guard) during WW2.

I came over from the German Wiki article about Eduard Rubin when I realized that the pictures in the article did not represent his work (the 1889 rifle and 7,5 mm GP90 cartridge), but the later variants 1911 rifle and GP11 cartridge. He had not a lot to do with those. When I checked for the correct links, I stumbled across this... This article just tosses together the GP90 and GP11, which are absolutely not the same. The lemma is "7.5 x 55", but the first half talks about the 7.5 x 53.5, without giving a clue why it switches. Please, can someone with more profeciency in English (I'm native German) correct that? --FyodorWO (talk) 08:14, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]