Talk:Ceremonial counties of England/Archive 1

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Do we know for certain that the change took place along with the introduction of county councils? I left that obscure deliberately, because my source doesn't state either way. Morwen 16:25, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Isn't a ceremonial county of England the same as a Traditional County? Is this a double entry? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_counties_of_the_British_Isles

-Simon Brunger

No, a ceremonial county is an area defined for the appointment of Lord Lieutenants which is based on combinations of local government areas. A traditional county is an area that is independent of local government. They used to be the same, but since the introduction of modern local government in 1889 the ceremonial areas have been based on local government areas rather than directly on the traditional counties. Despite having similar names, in some cases the areas are radically different. Also some ceremonial counties are not based on traditional counties at all, such as Greater Manchester, and some traditional counties are not ceremonial counties, such as Huntingdonshire. Owain 09:01, 23 August 2005 (UTC).

Where does the idea that Ceremonial county is aka Geographic[al] county come from? What sort of county is non-geographical?

As above, 'ceremonial county' is well-defined and uses current local authority borders. 'Traditional county' refers to the counties that existed before the 1889 reforms. The confusion comes from unitary and upper tier local authorities that call themselves and/or the areas they cover 'counties'.

-Colin Newman

I sent an email to the Lord Lieutenant of Cambridgeshire's office and got this reply

Dear Abigail

Thank you for your enquiry. I have had a look at my lists and confirm that

there was a Lieutenant of Huntingdonshire from 1660. The position finished

with the amalgamation of the Huntingdon and Peterborough County Council with

the Cambridge and Isle of Ely County Council in 1974.

Lord de Ramsey was the Lieutenant of Huntingdonshire 1947 - 1968 and Lord

Hemingford from 1968 - 1974.

Morwen - Talk 18:24, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I dispute the inclusion of Cornwall as a ceremonial county of England. Cornwall is not a ceremonial county of England, there is plenty of evidence to suggest it is in fact a Duchy please see the Cornish time line provided by Cornwall 'County' Council [[1]] Also please visit the website of the Cornish Stannery Parliament [[2]]. There are plenty of documents to indicate that all of Cornwall is a Duchy and that the Duchy of Cornwall constitutionally does not equate to the Dukes estates. Ceremonially the Queen takes the role of a visiting head of state when in Cornwall and the Duke takes the role of Head of State. This applies to anywhere in Cornwall not just on the Duchy estates. When a swan or sturgeon are caught in Cornwall they are ceremonially presented to the Duke of Cornwall not the Queen.

1855-58 The legal arguments of Sir George Harrison, Attorney General to the Duchy of Cornwall, defeat the Crown's aspirations of sovereignty of the Cornish foreshore. The Duchy that Cornwall argues the Duke has sovereignty of Cornwall and not the Crown.

1856 On behalf of the Duchy in its successful action against the Crown, which resulted in the Cornwall Submarine Mines Act of 1858, Sir George Harrison (Attorney General for Cornwall) makes this submission. That Cornwall, like Wales, was at the time of the Conquest, and was subsequently treated in many respects as distinct from England. That it was held by the Earls of Cornwall with the rights and prerogative of a County Palatine, as far as regarded the Seignory or territorial dominion. That the Dukes of Cornwall have from the creation of the Duchy enjoyed the rights and prerogatives of a County Palatine, as far as regarded seignory or territorial dominion, and that to a great extent by Earls. That when the Earldom was augmented into a Duchy, the circumstances attending to it's creation, as well as the language of the Duchy Charter, not only support and confirm natural presumption, that the new and higher title was to be accompanied with at least as great dignity, power, and prerogative as the Earls enjoyed, but also afforded evidence that the Duchy was to be invested with still more extensive rights and privileges. The Duchy Charters have always been construed and treated, not merley by the Courts of Judicature, but also by the Legislature of the Country, as having vested in the Dukes of Cornwall the whole territorial interest and dominion of the Crown in and over the entire County of Cornwall. Thenceforth mineral rights above the Low Water Mark belonged to the Duchy and below it to the Crown.
1863 The Duchy of Cornwall Management Act confirms that the Duke possesses seignory and territorial rights befitting a king.

1969-71 Kilbrandon Report into the British constitution recommends that, when referring to Cornwall - official sources should cite the Duchy not the County. This was suggested in recognition of its constitutional position.

1974 Reform of Cornish Stannary Parliament

1977 The Stannators right to veto Westminster legislation is confirmed by Parliament.

2001 (April) A sturgeon is caught off Cadgwith and is offered to the Duke of Cornwall. When landed in other parts of Britain the fish is customarily offered to the monarch.

In contrast to every English and Welsh county the High Sheriff of Cornwall is appointed by the Duke of Cornwall not by the Crown. For reference see page 72 of Cornwall a history by Philip Payton of Exeter university.

I have added a short note in the history section which points out the fact that in Cornwall can be found many people who disagree with its English county status, Cornwall is the only 'county' like this and is worth noting. Fulub le Breton 7/2/05

Added the following link

• Celtic Frontier or County Boundary? Competing discourses of a late nineteenth century British border

Bretagne 44 14:44, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I have attempted to bring the

Hello. You will see here there are two offices, of Herefordshire and Worcestershire, which just happen to be occupied by the same chap. Morwen - Talk 08:36, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

And they are planning for the same system next year. How odd. Anyway I have taken the cowards solution and pointed the county link on High Sheriff to this article. Thanks. Andreww 09:14, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

What on earth is going on here? I can think of no reason for this article to be moved from Ceremonial counties of England. I recommend a speedy revert. MRSC 19:31, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Who changed my title from Boroughs of England? "Borough" is the more official and used term. The 47 boroughs are the most basic equivalent to provincial government in England. SuperWikiman 09:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

No it is not. A borough is something else entirely. What is your source? MRSC 14:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Your title? I changed it back to what it should be (and what it was before you mischievously changed it in the first place). You are probably aware that this is all available in the history. Owain 14:31, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

This is indeed nonsense on stilts. The claim probably comes from the CIA claim that England has, amongst other entities, "47 boroughs" on their World Factbook, but these are not the same as the entities listed here. [3] (their 47 "boroughs" are the metropolitan boroughs without city status and some unitary authorities with borough status, they make no attempt to ditinguish things by function, only by name) Morwen - Talk 14:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Alright, I give in; I've obviously stepped in a rattler's nest. Seeing how you're all British yourselves I'll assume you know this stuff more than I do; and a rose of a different color is still a rose. I am impressed on your great contributions and barnstars and am lucky to have met you all. Perhaps we can work on something together?(PS May Christ have mercy on your soul, Morwen). SuperWikiman 15:34, 13 December 2005(UTC)

Now now, no need to be rude. Morwen - Talk 09:54, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Not trying to be rude, it's just that Christianity teaches that the lost need to be reached and saved; and I'm a devout Christian(but in NO WAY a fundie or a member of the Religious Right)and liberal and just stating the faith. SuperWikiman 08:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure that's nice, but I strongly object to people praying for me, and suchforth, as I'm sure you would if someone interceded to Satan on your behalf. Please don't do it (certainly not where I can see it). Morwen - Talk 14:41, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

1)It's not a fair comparison, God and the Devil, in any religious sense; since God is good in Christianity and other religions, where Satan is only "good" in Satanism, a cult;

2)I will keep my prayers as part of my freedom of religion but will respct your wishes and not post them;

3)Back to my original proposal to all you three great Wikipedians: is it possible for us to work on an article together? I am quite an Anglophile and know a thing or too myself, but could learn a great deal from and with you all. SuperWikiman 15:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Can anyone/is is possible to make the map interactive, so you click on a county and it comes up witht he article? If so, this should be done.

Good idea. Yes, it is possible - the only other map like this I've seen on WP is at the

article for the upcoming World Cup, but it's certainly a proof of concept, and the code for the image is easily adaptable. If you want more advice on making such a map, drop a line at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Maps, which is frequented by several helpful and knowledgeable mapmakers. Good luck! Aquilina

15:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

So, what sort of sourcing would be needed for this claim to be kept in? I can come up with many references from government and official sites using such a terminology. As an example [4] has Yvette Cooper noting that "The geographical county of Lancashire is made up of 12 district authorities and 2 unitary authorities". And conveniently now Encyclopedia Britannica is unacceptable as a source. This removal of valid, verifiable information because certain editors happen to disagree with is rather worrying.

• [5] says Peterborough is in the "geographic county" of Cambridgeshire
• [6] says the Hampshire Fire and Rescue service operates in the "geographic county of Hampshire". they cover Hampshire including Portsmouth and Southampton, but not Bournemouth or the Isle of Wight.

Morwen - Talk 12:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

You objected to the use of EB on the Lancashire article when it didn't fit your POV ie. referring to Cumbria as an administrative county. You can't it both ways I'm afraid. All of the above uses are by government. The fact that that the gov uses a particular geographic framework doesn't obligate anyone else to do the same, and many in fact choose to use a different one. See your own talk page for the relevant quote.

Lancsalot

12:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I raised concerns about the usage of Encyclopedia Britannica, in quite a qualified way. Did I say it was never acceptable as a source? No. Again, with the strawmen.

The fact remains that the government and many local authorities use this terminology. You removed the entire sentence apparently merely because you dislike this fact. The sentence didn't say that the usage was good, or correct. The sentence was

"They are also often used in a geographic reference frame, and in this capacity are sometimes called geographic counties.[7] "

It's not even saying they are geographical counties, it is just saying they are sometimes called that. Could that statement be even weaker? If this is so unacceptable to you, please suggest alternate wording. With this, and other recent edits of yours, it is becoming increasingly difficult for me to accept that your edits are being made in good faith. Morwen - Talk 13:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Could the geographic centres of the counties be integrated into either this article or elsewhere in Wikipedia?

http://www.geograph.org.uk/explore/counties.php

David 16:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi, how do I change the "County Durham" to "Durham" on the map? I can't seem to be able to do it either on this page or the linked iamge. Thanks. Logoistic 09:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I've just done it. You have to edit the image article. David 16:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Logoistic 16:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Is the term "Ceremonial county" official, or was it coined by someone unknown who doesn't have official sanction? These "Ceremonial counties" in England have a lord lieutenant, yet in Scotland they are called "Lieutenancy areas". Is there an official reference/citation to state that the term "Ceremonial county" is official? There is a Lieutenancies Act 1997, not a "Ceremonial counties Act 1997". Could some explain how this term gained acceptance and is it official? Cayden (talk) 22:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

They seem to be officially called "Counties for the purposes of the Lieutenancies Act 1997". Ceremonial counties is obviously an informal term, but widely used. We should probably add that in the lead. Lozleader (talk) 19:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing (that Cayden raises) myself. It's definately "Lieutenancy area" in Scotland, but was wondering about England and Wales too just the other day. --Jza84 |  Talk  13:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd realised that Ceremonial county isn't an official term, unlike

Lord Lieutenant. In Wales there are the Preserved counties of Wales

, so not sure their status being Preserved counties or Lieutenancy areas.

Having said all that, I may being a bit too picky. Names such as Geographical county, Historical county, or Traditional county are used without official sanction. Perhaps just leave things as they are, except possibly with Lozleader's suggestion to mention it in the lead. Cayden (talk) 14:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll ask User:MRSC to pop over and take a look. I suspect he might be able to enlighten us. --Jza84 |  Talk  14:02, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I have wondered about this. You can find 'ceremonial county' in Hansard debates [8] and from National statistics. [9] I'm confident we are reflecting real-world practice. MRSC • Talk 14:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks MRSC for answering this query. It would seem that Ceremonial county is an acceptable term. Cayden (talk) 15:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

We probably ought to up the level of citation then, given this development. --Jza84 |  Talk  18:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

A couple of citations from the google ones MRSC suggested would do fine to back up the article's title name. Cayden (talk) 20:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Map is missing the Wirral

The Wirral seems to have got chopped off the map. Merseyside should have two parts, one on each side of the river Mersey. On the map, only the Liverpool side is shown; the Wirral seems to have floated off somewhere. Unless coastal erosion has stepped up recently, I think that the map should be altered to bring the Wirral back. Epa101 (talk) 11:31, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Disappearing map

If the user's window size is less than about 900 pixels wide, the map disappears - even though it itself is only 448 px wide. Can this be fixed? --

Map is too small

The map is too small, so all the names get jumbled up and the map is unreadable. 82.139.86.4 (talk) 17:36, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I have the same problem, using Firefox 3.6.23. As the window is re-sized, the summary box in the upper right -- the one entitled Ceremonial Counties (England) -- is re-positioned. If that box is re-positioned so that it touches the map, the names on the map are moved to incorrect locations. — Lawrence King ^(talk) 01:00, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I am just looking at reducing some of the areas where citations have been requested on the Buckinghamshire page, and one such area is where it states that Milton Keynes is part of Bucks for ceremonial purposes. I can find nothing on a google search that easily verifies that this is the case. Is anyone able to give me a good reference for MK being part of ceremonial Bucks? -- role^player 13:36, 8 December 2011 (UTC):Here you are [10] Lozleader (talk) 15:27, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! -- role^player 16:38, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I was confused about the term "ceremonial county". Is a "ceremonial county" different from a "county", "administrative county", "geographic county", "bog standard county", or whatever the other term is?

If "Yes", what is the other term? And where can I find a map showing those other kind of counties?

If "No", why are they called "ceremonial counties", rather then just "counties"?

So I read the article, hoping to find answers to these questions. I am now even more confused. Maproom (talk) 12:02, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

The term "ceremonial county" is a non-statutory term used to mean the "Counties and areas for the purposes of the lieutenancies in Great Britain" as per the Lieutenancies Act 1997. They are different from the usage of the term "county" used by the Local Government Act 1972. Most maps show the LGA 1972 "counties". There are maps available showing the "ancient or geographic counties" for example [11]. I am not aware of any maps of the "ceremonial counties". Owain (talk) 12:27, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

This article has three maps with the caption "Ceremonial Counties", as well as one with no caption. One of the three is also used at the article Counties of England. Yes, I know about maps of the "ancient" counties, I even have them on my own web site; but I had not realised that these are what is meant by "geographic counties".

I am still confused. I am only concerned with the way things are now, not with the 1972, or pre-1972, entities. Now we have "ceremonial counties", as shown in the map in both this article and the Counties of England article. We also have "unitary authorities" , as shown in the Unitary authorities of England article. Is there a third kind of thing generally known as "counties"? If there is, where can I find a map of them? If there isn't, why aren't "ceremonial counties" just called "counties", and why are there two Wikipedia articles, Counties of England and Ceremonial counties of England? Maproom (talk) 14:44, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Between 1974 and 1995, everywhere in England outside Greater London was part of a county council area: a county. But with the introduction of unitary authorities, things got more complicated, because the legal definition of a local government county no longer matched most people's informal understanding of what a county is. Even more confusing, there are separate 19th century counties which have never been legally abolished, even though they are irrelevant to council boundaries and do not appear on most modern maps or signs.

In the 19th century, the area covered by an English county council was officially called an "administrative county", because it sometimes differed from the traditional county area for administrative convenience. However, with the increasing role of councils over the last 150 years, the administrative areas became increasingly associated with what was meant by a "county" (newer residents knew which county council they paid rates to, but increasingly took no interest in non-council borders which had no meaningful effect on them).

Then, in 1965, Greater London replaced county functions for Middlesex and London county councils, and in 1974 local government was reorganised throughout the rest of England. Every existing council was abolished and each new county council area was simply defined as a "county" for local government purposes. So "administrative county" became obsolete as a legal term.

However, a saving provision in the Local Government Act 1972 provided that the new council "counties" were effective only for administrative purposes, which has been interpreted as meaning that the old counties were never quite legally abolished. But because there is no longer a separate legal name for the council "county" and the general "county", and because maps and official notices always refer to the relevant council area, the non-council counties have become obsolescent in everyday life (other than to some sports teams and traditionalist campaigners; even Royal Mail switched to an addressing system mostly based on the 1974 council counties, until it eventually abandoned including counties in postal addresses altogether).

It would now be very hard to find reliable sources showing the exact official boundaries of these non-council ghost counties, even though legally they do still exist for non-council purposes (i.e. for no practical purpose whatsoever).

When unitary authorities were created (in stages from the mid-1990s), for legal purposes they mostly had a county area and an overlapping district area of identical extent and name to the new unitary council's territory (the exception is the Royal County of Berkshire, which comprises several unitary districts carved out of the old county council area and has no county council). So if a law says that county councils have to do something, it automatically applies to unitary councils too. But in non-legal documents, unitary areas are only referred to as counties where the unitary authority has a name corresponding to a historic county (e.g. Cornwall, Herefordshire, Rutland), and even then only sometimes.

Meanwhile, since the 19th century the areas covered by

High Sheriffs

, had also been rationalised instead of covering the traditional county. But they correspond more closely to the traditional counties, or at least to the former 1974 county council areas, by usually retaining the unitary areas which were carved out of some county council territories since the 1990s. So they make a convenient way of grouping new unitary districts with larger council areas.

Since it is cumbersome to refer to "county areas for lieutenancy (and/or shrieval) purposes", and the areas are only officially for long-standing royal and judicial purposes, Wikipedia calls these "ceremonial counties". In practice, most ceremonial counties outside Greater London correspond to the area covered by one county council (if one still exists) and/or one or more unitary districts that were formerly covered by the same county council.

Though most people don't know or care much about Lord Lieutenants and High Sheriffs, by amalgamating the smaller unitary districts in with their former county council area, the ceremonial counties are easier to show on a small scale map and more concise to list in tables of statistics, navboxes and categories. In many cases, they also reflect people's perception of "what county I live in": e.g. people in Southend are likely to think of themselves as living in the county of Essex, even though Essex County Council no longer controls functions within Southend-on-Sea unitary borough; they are within the ceremonial county of Essex so the ceremonial county name is more intuitive even though the role of ceremonial counties is relatively obscure. But it would be misleading to equate the ceremonial county of Essex with the "traditional county of Essex" because the ceremonial county borders will have changed, at least slightly (and in some cases completely), over the past 125 years, and no one produces accurate modern maps or statistics for the traditional or ghost county areas.

— Richardguk (talk) 16:22, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Richardguk, for a very clear explanation. I wish the articles could be as clear.

Now I understand why articles say things like "Sevenhampton is a small village in the ceremonial county of Wiltshire". Maproom (talk) 19:30, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. That was the simplified version! It's unfortunate that such a simple thing has become so hard to explain in relation to the unitary areas. "Ceremonial county" is very little used except on Wikipedia, and it's not usually Wikipedia policy to make widespread use of a term that is not in common or formal usage in real life. But articles about places in unitary areas need to say something concise and verifiable about the places' county connections, so "ceremonial county" is adopted as the least worst unambiguous term. Traditional/ancient counties (which may or may not be identical to what I've called "ghost counties") would fail the verifiability test for smaller places, because the boundaries are not on modern maps and some old counties had boundaries running through modern towns, or

exclaves

where the ancient county was bizarrely split into several unadjacent pieces. The phrase "ceremonial county" was agreed as Wikipedia policy after painful wikiwars; hence the reluctance to overturn the present uneasy truce.

The Sevenhampton, Wiltshire article you mention though was a bad example, because the article fails to mention that the village is located in the unitary borough of Swindon (bigger than the town of Swindon). See Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements for some general advice (though there is not much guidance for places in unitary areas). You might want to edit the opening words to something like "Sevenhampton is a small village in the borough of Swindon, in the ceremonial county of Wiltshire..."

You can check the current county council (if any), district/borough council, parish and constituency boundaries for UK places at http://www.election-maps.co.uk/

Oh, and "geographic county" is a meaningless term, because every type of county is geographic. But it seems to be used by some people to refer to older counties, in contrast to the local government counties which serve functional purposes. Avoid!

— Richardguk (talk) 20:31, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

The info box at the top of the article says

• Populations 8,000–8,173,941[1]
• Areas 3–8,611 km²

So, which ceremonial county has a population of only 8,000? And which has an area of only three square kilometres? Maproom (talk) 14:32, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

The City of London is the smallest and Greater London,( which excludes the City of London)the largest according to the ranking of ceremonial counties.Tmol42 (talk) 14:47, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Maybe I should have thought of that. Maproom (talk) 15:42, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

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There is a discussion here [12], if anybody is interested. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 07:09, 13 October 2018 (UTC)