I would add that he disappeared; as it reads now, it sounds a bit as if 21st-century research just can't turn up much information on him.
- sorted. Hel-hama 07:42, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
A strong lead overall.
Background
See what you think of my reorganization of this section. It felt like it was jumping between society and school, so I have separated those parts into distinct paragraphs.
Infobox
Infobox
Elected Norwich Society of Artists — This isn't in the body of the article.
- paragraph added. Hel-hama 08:04, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Boyhood
Boyhood
The family lived at one time ... George's mother died in about 1800, when he was a small boy. — Citations for these sentences?
- references added. Hel-hama 08:37, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Vincent evidently enjoyed drawing with charcoal — Why the "evidently"?
- sentence amended. Hel-hama 08:40, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Early adulthood (1812–21)
Early adulthood (1812–21)
during the crossing. — From where, London? Also, citation?
- citation added, but details of where they sailed from not yet known. Hel-hama 09:52, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
His View of Rouen was probably painted as a result of the journey through France. — Citation? Also, where is View of Rouen now?
- citation added, information provided. Hel-hama 10:17, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Would you mind quoting here the parts of the sources that support "the only painting he produced of a continental subject" and "was probably painted as a result of the journey through France"? Also, if the journey took place in 1816, then in the gallery, "Rouen (after 1816)" should really amended. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:05, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
-sorted. Hel-hama 16:30, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
by April that year he was in "very indifferent health". — According to who? Any idea why?
- paragraph amended. Hel-hama 11:09, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
“step on the road to fame”. — According to who? Also, the quotation should have an inline citation.
- note amended. Hel-hama 17:11, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
Marriage and subsequent decline
Marriage and subsequent decline
a "good house" in Camden Town (referred to by some sources, e.g. in Painters and their Works (1896), as in Kentish Town) — Perhaps better as a footnote. Who described it as a "good house"?
So the "good house" language is Dickes's? If so, you could say something like "what Dickes considered a 'good house'". --Usernameunique (talk) 05:14, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- amended. Hel-hama 17:15, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
his wife's money failed to materialise — Any reason why?
- no reasons given, text amended to reflect this. Hel-hama 20:09, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
A letter from George Vincent to his Norwich friend William Davey — Are there any secondary sources which discuss this?
- done. Hel-hama 20:24, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
When you say Josephine Walpole has connected it with unpleasant rumours about Vincent, is Walpole's guessing that rumors existed about Vincent, or does she know that rumors existed, and is guessing that they were connected to the "past folly"? If the rumors are known, what were they? --Usernameunique (talk) 05:14, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- sentence by Walpole hidden, as I can't tell from her book what rumours she is referring to, or their connection with the 'past folly'. Hel-hama 17:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
Both Vincent's alcoholism and the rumours about the 'past folly' exasperated his debt problems. — What do the secondary sources say about his "past folly"?
- secondary sources used. Hel-hama 20:37, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
With the help of his father-in-law and his friends he was able to exhibit five paintings — Any ideas which ones? It would be interesting to see what his paintings from prison were like.
- paintings identified. Hel-hama 06:51, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
A letter from George Vincent to his Norwich friend William Davey — What year was this? It's worth adding, particularly since no year is mentioned in this paragraph, yet later on in the paragraph it says In another letter written in October that year.
- done. Hel-hama 19:01, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
Disappearance from public view (from 1831)
Disappearance from public view (from 1831)
In contrast with the single newspaper report of his death in 1832, the author of an article on Vincent in the Dictionary of National Biography, 1885-1900 believed that following his father's death in April 1833, he travelled to Norwich to attend the funeral, that being the last occasion in which he was seen by his family, and that he received a sum from the will.[5] However, as the belongings of Vincent's house in London were sold by auction in January 1833,[26] and on 2 May 1833, his widow remarried, marrying a journalist named Thomas Murphy at St Pancras Old Church,[27] the Dictionary of National Biography's suggestion that he died after 1833 is unlikely to be correct. — This needs to be rewritten to focus on the facts. It currently reads like speculation based on original research.
- Paragraph written to remove any suggestion of OR. Hel-hama 21:47, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Looks better now. Does the 1899 edition of the DNB cite any sources for its claim? If not, you might mention this. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:14, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- sentence amended. Hel-hama 18:56, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
It sounds as if he simply disappeared, not just from public view. Would it be more appropriate to label the section "Disappearance (from 1831)"?
- agreed. Hel-hama 21:50, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Artistic career
George Vincent is considered to be one of principal artists of the Norwich School: — According to who?
- paragraph amended to refer to Cundall. Hel-hama 06:56, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
What are elementary works?
- no idea! sentence amended accordingly. Hel-hama 07:09, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
painted some pictures of importance — What ones? What happened to them (e.g., sold to patron)?
- sorted. Hel-hama 07:32, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
Portrait of George Vincent (1796-1832), with landscape background by himself — Whose title is this? Seems odd to have a portrait of a living subject with the date of death/disappearance in the title.
- reference added to image caption. Hel-hama 20:22, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
View of Edinburgh from Calton Hill and Fishing Boats on the Bank of the Forth ... London from the Surrey Side of Waterloo Bridge ... View of Greenwich from Blackwall — Are pictures of these available?
- they are not on public display to my knowledge, I may need to trawl a bit more before I am certain. Hel-hama 20:39, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
- unfortunately not, although they might appear at auction in the future. The Norfolk Museums Service has none of them and they are not on the Art UK website, so they are likely to be privately owned. Hel-hama 17:40, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- an image of Young's engraving of London from the Surrey Side of Waterloo Bridge located and included in the article. Hel-hama 18:13, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
evidence, according to Harold Day — Who's Harold Day?
- sentence amended. Hel-hama 20:46, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
With the help of his father-in-law and his friends he was able to exhibit five paintings ... Vincent exhibited a total of nine works at the Royal Academy, forty-one at the British Institution (yearly from 1815 to 1831, except 1816 and 1828) ... In 1825, when he was permitted to travel from prison to visit James Stark at Norwich, he attempted to resume his connection with the Norwich Society and sent five works to their exhibition. — Clearly he exhibited more than five paintings while in prison, since five went to the Norwich Society's exhibition, and at least another 2 to 4 to the British Institution.
- corrected. Hel-hama 07:28, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
including those now held at the British Museum. — "those" suggests that you have already introduced the topic. Suggest replacing it with "some," or with an exact number.
- done. Hel-hama 20:04, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
In 1817 ... ill health. — This belongs earlier, in "Early adulthood (1812–21)."
- done. Hel-hama 19:54, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
I've reordered this section somewhat to place his Norwich work together and his London work together. You could also integrate, in whole or in part, the third and fourth paragraphs; in particular, his exhibition of London from the Surrey Side of Waterloo Bridge is mentioned twice, with different names for both the painting and the society exhibiting it.
- done. Hel-hama 20:21, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
Influences, reputation and legacy
The whole section is disjointed. The first paragraph swivels from Vincent's influences to his legacy; the second paragraph swivels back to influences, and then to appraisal of his works; the third paragraph starts with comparisons of Vincent to his contemporaries, moves on to his legacy, jumps back to comparison with his contemporaries (namely Crome, despite the fact that they were already compared in the first paragraph), states that later commentators have disagreed without actually saying what those later commentators have said about Vincent, and then ends back in the 19th-century with some unexplained form of "ranking"; and the fourth through sixth paragraphs—sentences, really—read like trivia.
- sorted. Hel-hama 20:24, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Individual problems include that the first sentence is a long run-on, that other than one line about Andrew Moore's opinion and a passing reference to "later commentators," the latest commentary is about a century old, that Vincent's "legacy" is barely discussed, and that the 2018 "announcement" of the catalogue raisonné—said to be by one "Alastair Tort", whose name in quotation marks gets only 5 hits on Google—is sourced to an auction lot which makes it seem as if the catalogue has been known to be in the works for some time.
- Tort sentence removed, long sentence amended and shortened, section title amended. Hel-hama 16:43, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
according to Derek Clifford — An art historian?
- sorted. Hel-hama 20:33, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
It would be worth adding a short paragraph with some of his recent auction results. Even if stated without commentary (e.g., whether these prices are "low" or "high"), it would give the reader a sense of the market for his works.
= done. Hel-hama 22:06, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
She has praised his Scottish oil paintings in particular, describing them as "absolutely magnificent". — Inline citation needed for the quotation.
- sorted. Hel-hama 07:46, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
Greenwich Hospital from the River (1827)
Greenwich Hospital from the River (1827)
Both sources refer to this as Greenwich Hospital, not the longer title; your description here suggests these are different paintings, and that Greenwich Hospital from the River is his masterpiece, but then why do the sources refer to Greenwich Hospital as his masterpiece? Also, later on ("Other paintings") you refer to it by the shortened name.
- text amended to clarify the issue. Hel-hama 16:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
According to William Dickes — An art historian? A curator? A random guy on the street?
- sorted. Hel-hama 16:09, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
as a result of the action of Vincent's friend James Wadmore — What was "the action"?
- action described. Hel-hama 17:35, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
The painting ... for Vincent. — What's the source for the sentence?
- referenced. Hel-hama 17:37, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
which helped increase Vincent's reputation still further — Does the source actually say this?
- text amended to match source. Hel-hama 17:54, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
A detailed description of the painting can be found in Dickes' The Norwich school of painting. — It would be better to include a description of the painting in the article (where there is currently none; there's only a description of its impact on Vincent's legacy) than to say where a description can be found.
- done. Hel-hama 18:49, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
The painting was possibly the one lent by Wadmore to the Society of British Artists and exhibited in 1834 — What is the source for this clause?
- source lost in the ether, so sentence hidden. Hel-hama 19:23, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
Added back part of this that was supported by the source (displayed at the 1862 International Exhibition). Do you recall the source for sold in 1866 (after Wadmore's death) to a Mr Fordham of Stourton Castle? --Usernameunique (talk) 19:31, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Dickes: ref added. Hel-hama 17:45, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- the ref 1834 exhibition clause added. Hel-hama 18:28, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
Other paintings
Trowse Meadows — Same painting as Trowse Meadows, near Norwich?
- name amended. Hel-hama 07:11, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Colman also owned one of Vincent's best pictures, On the Yare. — Best according to who?
- sentence removed, as comment from DNB cannot be sourced (possibly given by James Reeve and so unpublished) Hel-hama 07:28, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
The list would be better with citations for each painting, than with the small text locations. The citations would also serve the dual purpose of letting readers click over to see photographs of the paintings.
- done. Hel-hama 18:58, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
The list is obviously incomplete; what's the criteria for inclusion?
- sentence added - I'll include the comments made in the sources later. Hel-hama 19:00, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- comments made in an article List of works by George Vincent, referred to in this article. Hel-hama 15:33, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
Great idea. Two minor suggestions for that article would be to include the sale prices when available, and to fix footnote 27. --Usernameunique (talk) 19:22, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- footnote fixed. In consideration of your sale price idea, Vincent's public collection works don't come up for auction, but I agree about including prices of works. Hel-hama 22:24, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
- prices included. Hel-hama 09:41, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
As to the latter point, we hardly think the recollection is confirmed by the portrait — What does this mean?
- removed, as it adds nothing to the article. Hel-hama 22:39, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
Works by Vincent have been confused — Any other works that have been confused? If not, say "At least one work by Vincent has been confused..."
- sentence amended as only one is known. Hel-hama 22:42, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
- Done (properly, I hope). Hel-hama 21:06, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Footnotes 37 and 63 don't work. For future reference, installing this script makes it easy to spot such errors. --Usernameunique (talk) 19:38, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- sorted. Hel-hama 21:32, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
#16: The title should probably be something along the lines of "George Vincent in England Births..." I don't this the access date is required (technically you're citing the original record, and the website is just a courtesy), but if you want to include it, the ref template should have a separate parameter for it.
- ref amended. Hel-hama 08:00, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
#24, 26: Need proper citations (like #28), not just mildly descriptive links.
- sorted. Hel-hama 08:41, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
#31: Does this have an author? I can't get the link to work.
- Reference amended to show source (included in Bibliography) - link should open as a PDF document, it's fine from this side of the pond. Hel-hama 08:50, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
#34: Same as #16.
- ref amended. Hel-hama 08:00, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
#35, 49: These should cite the newspapers, not the newspaper archive (though the links, of course, can still be to the newspaper archive).
- sorted. Hel-hama 09:16, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
#50: Same as #16.
- ref amended. Hel-hama 08:00, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
#51, 91: Should be footnotes, not citations.
- amended accordingly. Hel-hama 09:19, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
"Cultural Philanthropy and the Invention of the Norwich School" — Link, ISSN, or OCLC?
- link added. Hel-hama 10:09, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
"A Sketch of the Life and Labours of Sir William Jackson Hooker" — Link? It seems like it should be out of copyright.
- new source located, link now able to be included. Hel-hama 10:24, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
"The Norwich School of Artists. HMSO/Norwich Museums Service" — Link/ISBN/ISSN/OCLC?
- sorted. Hel-hama 10:32, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
"The Norwich Society of Artists, 1805-1833" — Same.
- amended. Hel-hama 10:38, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
Temple/Scott: Any reason why these are in the bibliography but not cited to?
- now cited. Hel-hama 10:48, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
Overall
Amitchell125, the article does a fairly good job of fleshing out Vincent's biography, but a less good job of describing his artistic importance. Some of the problems include:
There should really be a "Background section; whatever the Norwich School of painters was is left entirely unexplained, and after reading the article I have a vague sense of Vincent as a minor painter from Norwich, but no idea where he fits in with English painting or a broader movement.
- section done, needs more on GV in it (to follow). Hel-hama 23:48, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
- background expanded. Hel-hama 19:27, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
"Influences, reputation and legacy" should be rewritten. It jumps around all over the place, and as a result struggles to say much of anything. Further, if more recent sources discuss his work in any depth, they should be included.
- done. Hel-hama 15:54, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
There's also some OR, but what's more troubling is the original interpretation: The description of Vincent's contribution to English landscape painting seems to go beyond what is in the sources, and interpretations are sometimes spun out of banal facts (e.g., "His paintings can can sell for high prices" is clearly what you personally think, since all the source says is what the price was). --Usernameunique (talk) 04:11, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- line removed. Hel-hama 17:05, 22 November 2018 (UTC); a few unimportant facts removed. Hel-hama 17:19, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
- remaining issues here sorted. Hel-hama 20:26, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for your attention to this, Amitchell125, it looks much better. I've started to go back through the sections again, and you can see responses (through "Disappearance (from 1831)"; also one comment added to the section on Greenwich Hospital) above. I've also closed out a few of the sections where I don't have further comments. More to follow soon. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:46, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Amitchell125, further comments are above. There's nothing major; the most significant is the work that should be done on the third and fourth paragraphs of "Artistic career." The things I have remaining to do are to review the new "Background" section, the lead, and the references, and then do a final read through once all is resolved. --Usernameunique (talk) 19:45, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Amitchell125, sorry for the delay in getting back to this. Final comments are above. I'll still do a final read though once you respond to the above, but that won't be much. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:11, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, Amitchell125. Fixed a couple minor problems and am now passing. Well done with the article! Out of curiosity, what made you decide to focus on Vincent? --Usernameunique (talk) 19:40, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for all your help with the article, Usernameunique, you definitely helped me raise my game in the process. I found Vincent's life fascinating. I also admire his work and, living in Norfolk, I can view some of his best paintings, a few of which are on public display nearby. Hel-hama 20:06, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
