Talk:Grand Valley State University

This review is

transcluded from Talk:Grand Valley State University/GA1

. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Racepacket (talk) 04:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

A. Prose quality:

• Reword "The following year legislation was signed to establish and regulate the college, which was named Grand Valley State College as a result of a naming contest." Passive voice, run on sentence.

 Done - We in the sciences love the passive voice! But I understand it's best to avoid it in prose. P. D. Cook Talk to me! 12:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Reword "With considerable growth over the years, the college changed to university status in 1987 and was renamed Grand Valley State University." Passive voice. Either say who renamed it (the legislature? the Board of Trustees? or say the college "became". Michigan Code § 390.861 appears to be the law that renamed it in 1987.

 Done - and reference added. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 12:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Reword "In 2004, the University structure was reorganized again into a college system ..." to "In 2004, the Board of Control reorganized the University structure again into a college system..." We need to separate what the State Legislature does from what the Board of Control does.

 Done Good point. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 12:57, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Reword "GVSU currently has 300+ student-run organizations" how about "GVSU has over 300 student-run organizations."

 Done P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 12:57, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Reword "The university owns and operates a PBS station, WGVU" -please state it is a TV station.

 Done P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 12:57, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Add "as of {year}" to the sentence "The GVSU Fraternity and Sorority Community consists of 997 undergraduate members...." Perhaps add how many of these houses are university owned or whether they are all off-campus.

• The year has been added. As far as ownership of the houses, I don't know. I can look into it, but if someone else has this info, please add it. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 13:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Some of the houses are on campus and some are off campus, the majority of the sororities have on campus houses in Grand Valley Apartments. The apartment buildings were transformed into houses by the university and have the greek letters of them posted on the front. A few of the fraternities have houses that are either scattered around just outside of campus or in Allendale, one has a house on campus in GVA, however, most of the fraternities rent out massive apartment blocks at off campus apartments and hang banners on the buildings. However I have no way of referencing it, I just know because I currently attend GVSU and know where things are...Demhem (talk) 15:53, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Yeah, this seems incredibly hard to reference. I haven't seen anything on the GVSU website about how ownership breaks down. We might not be able to say much about it. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 16:03, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Add "as of {year}" to the sentence "98 percent of Grand Valley graduates are either successfully employed or pursuing advanced degrees." Clarify that this is just after graduation. (We know that there are unemployed alumni.)

 Done - I added that this info came from USNWR 2011 best colleges. Yes there are many unemployed alumni...it's Michigan after all. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 13:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Most readers (including me) would not know what the "Multicultural Greek Council" is and why it is co-ed.

• I haven't a clue either. I'll look into this. If anyone else knows about this, please expand. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 13:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

B.

lists

:

• Perhaps the lead paragraph should explain that the name of the school comes from the Grand River.

• I can look into this, though I'm not sure the etymology is quite that simple. There is a locality nearby called Grand Valley, Michigan, from which I believe the University gets its name. Indeed Grand Valley, Michigan is named because it sits in the valley produced by the Grand River. Nonetheless I see your point. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 13:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Reword "M-45" as "Michigan Route 45"

 Done P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 13:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Change it back. Per

Use Common Names that suggested wording is wrong. The state highways have been named M-# in Michigan since at least 1919. Any other usage is wrong. It is a very common misconception that the "M" is short for Michigan. M-45 is the whole name, not an abbreviation. P.S. the correct link is M-45 (Michigan highway). The suggested link dumps to a disambiguation page. Imzadi 1979 → 19:43, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply

]

• Imzadi points to the policy for naming articles, not for their prose content. "Plain English works best: avoid jargon, and vague or unnecessarily complex wording." and "Write out both the full version and the abbreviation at first occurrence." (WP:MOS) Many readers have no idea what "M-45" means, so the article should spell out the abbreviation. Fixing the link to [[M-45 (Michigan highway))|Michigan Route 45]] would be fine. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 21:39, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• According to the most reliable source on the issue, the
  WP:MOS, as the latter is only a style guideline. I would agree with you, Racepacket, but in this case, as idiosyncratic as it might be, the correct solution is to reinstate the previous wording. Imzadi 1979 → 21:58, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• I see your point, Imzadi1979. A possible way to satisfy both you and Racepacket would be to put a simple descriptor before the M-45. Maybe something like "...state highway [[M-45 (Michigan highway)|M-45]]..." That way, we're not giving the highway a different name, merely describing what M-45 is. Just a thought. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 14:16, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• That would be fine with me. Racepacket (talk) 02:51, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• That's fine, just don't assume that the "M" stands for something when it doesn't. ;) Un-watchlisting now. Imzadi 1979 → 03:04, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

 Done P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 22:04, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Consider using the infobox template to organize the college rankings.
• Should "Muskegon center" heading be plural?

 Done - I can't find a source that uses the plural, but logic dictates plurality. So I changed it. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 13:19, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Although it is optional, please consider realigning headings to follow WP:UNI structure

• I've moved the administration section, and may rearrange others if it make sense for this article. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 13:21, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

A.

References to sources

:

• footnotes 18, 21, 30 and 35 give "accessed" dates but rest use "Retrieved"

 Done - Added appropriate citation templates. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 13:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

• Most references are to the GVSU website. Check for local press coverage using Google News. (For example, it is hard to believe that the only reference for MAREC is the official website without any secondary source.)

• I have been working on this issue steadily for the last several months. I will continue to do so. As for MAREC specifically, I added an independent source. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 13:58, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Is goinggreenmatters a reliable source? It is cited for the Kaplan ratings.

• It's a bit on the bloggy side. I removed it and added a reference to the US Green Building Council. At least it's an NPO. Peterson's is also used as a reference, but I really don't know much about them. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 13:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I found four dead links and flagged them. Please fix fn 43, 74, 96 and 99. Racepacket (talk) 00:21, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

 Done - Gotta love linkrot... P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 13:50, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

C. No original research:

• Need source for: "Grand Valley Comic Association is another outlet for creativity. Publishing twice a year and frequently on its website, the association produces a pulp comic of collective stories. All artwork, writing, editing, inking and lettering is collaborated by Grand Valley students."

• Hmm. I can't find any sources that suggest this association is any more notable than the multitude of other student organizations on campus. I would honestly prefer just removing it from the article. If anyone knows about it, and thinks it should stay, can you supply a reference? P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 13:42, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and removed the sentence. I can't find sources indicating any degree of notability. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 22:07, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

A. Major aspects:

• Many college article include a wikitable listing past presidents in the history section. Consider dropping the bullet list in the Administration section and reformatting it.

 Done P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 14:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• In general, the "Administration" section is disappointing. Identify the governing board of GVSU (and how it is selected) and whether each campus has a separate leadership. Identify how the school is funded (annual appropriations), etc. Look at Michigan Code § 390.864 which changed the term of office of the members of the GVSU Board of Control. It is an 8 member board, with each member appointed to a staggered 8-year term. Michigan Code § 390.861. Board members are appointed by the Governor and confirmed by the State Senate. Michigan Code § 390.865. The Board meets 4 times a year. [1] Apparently, the Board has been informally called the "Board of Trustees." The article should probably also mention Article VIII of the Michigan Constitution which mentions GVSU by name and provides for annual appropirations. It also requires that Board of Control meetings are open to the public. The Constitution seems to be worded as implying that MSU and the various other state universities are independent and co-equal. Perhaps also cite the University Bylaws.
• Many states have a overarching governance system for their "State Universities." Is there any relationship with Michigan State University? It is odd that MSU would open a medical school campus in Grand Rapids rather than GVSU, and one would think that some state-wide group made that type of coordinated decision.

• I'll have to look into this, but I'm pretty sure there isn't an overarching governance system in Michigan, certainly nothing like the University of Wisconsin System. I think each University in Michigan has its own Board of Regents/Control that are either elected or appointed. GVSU doesn't have a medical program, and the cost to start a new is enormous I imagine. MSU already had a medical program (MD and DO I believe), and West Michigan has several good hospitals, which I suspect is why MSU wanted to add a satellite med school there. I'm pretty sure this decision was made between the two schools, and not by a larger body, but I'm sure some state agencies had to give the go-ahead. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 14:35, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• The fifteen state universities in Michigan are all independent of each other. The governor appoints the governing board of 12 universities. MSU, UofM-Ann Arbor and Wayne State are elected by the residents of the state in a statewide ballot. As for Grand Rapids having a satellite program from MSU, Grand Rapids has no university of its own. It has satellite campuses for GVSU, MSU, Western Michigan U., and Ferris State U. which are based out of Allendale, East Lansing, Kalamazoo and Big Rapids respectively, in addition to the private colleges. Imzadi 1979 → 20:08, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• GVSU's downtown campus is more or less an expansion of the Allendale campus rather than a "satellite campus". Both campuses are connected by the Interurban Transit Partnership The Rapid, which is Grand Rapid's bus system. GVSU has the majority of its graduate programs downtown while the Allendale campus is mainly undergraduate. The business college, Engineering college, College of Ed, and Kirkhof College of nursing are all located almost entirely downtown. There are also dorms downtown as well, so really it is more of a "dual-campus".Demhem (talk) 17:45, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Perhaps mention the joint MSU-GVSU programs.

• I added a section about this. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 19:14, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Financial matters are not covered. What are the portions of revenues from tuition, grants, and state appropriations? Are there any initiatives to keep college affordable? What percentage of students receive financial aid?

• I covered some financial matters, however much more need be covered. I put it in the organization and administration section because I honestly do not know where else to put it...Move it if you think there is a better location.Demhem (talk) 23:03, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I looked at the July 23, 2010 version of the Controversies section, and it had a lot of merit. Are you sure you want to delete it entirely? Perhaps incorporate it into the history section?

• Yes, it was my intention to add it back to the history section. I'll work on this. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 14:41, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• How much land does the Meijer Campus occupy?
• I see that athletics has been split into a separate article. However, I would at least list the varsity sports in the athletics section of the main article.
• Re: Community Outreach - I take it that MSU operates the
  cooperative extension program, even for the Grand Rapids area? Does GVSU do anything comparable? Distance learning? Adult education? The bullet list is confusing and does not do this topic justice. Why list WGVU twice, once in the bullet list and then separately under media? Apprently, GVSU supervises 28 charter schools, including a cyber charter school with K-12, Inc.
  These programs should probably be described in a separate prose paragraph in the Community Outreach section.
• Re: Sustainability - are there on-campus recycling programs or energy programs other than "offshore wind energy generation"? E.g., like the MAREC?
• The History section is very general. You can add historic details to each campus description or can beef up the history section. For example, when was the Traverse City Regional Center established? You can add that fact in either place. Many university articles note important milestones such as the date that it awarded its first Ph.D., major initiatives or campaigns, the date that campuses were opened or closed.

• I added the year and semester in which the TC regional center and Muskegon Stevenson center was established, I could not find the exact dates, however.Demhem (talk) 19:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• When does GVSU's accreditation next expire? 2018? What there anything interesting or controversial in the 2008 accreditation report or self-study? (For example, you could say, "GVSU is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission of the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools, and based on its 2008 visit received a full 10-year reaccreditation." (You should probably cite the NCACS website and its review summary rather than the GVSU website.)
• The "Research" section is one sentence. Most University articles mention a few notable areas of research which have received national attention. So please consider adding some if you know of any that appear in secondary sources. Racepacket (talk) 13:57, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Most schools publish gender equity data under Title IX of the Higher Education Amendments Act of 1972. Is any of that worth reporting (e.g., number of female athletes vis a vis number of male athletes)?
• Perhaps note that both the Allendale and Pew campuses border the Grand River.

• Noted that both are on the Grand, however not in the same sentence. Is this how we want it? If not it can be changed. I also could not find a solid ref to put with it. But honestly, do we really need one? It is just geographic fact that both are next to the grand river, I could possibly put campus maps as a ref?Demhem (talk) 23:13, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Added map reference.Demhem (talk) 23:17, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Perhaps mention the 2010-2015 Strategic Plan.
• Perhaps mention the school's information technology and distance learning capabilities.

B. Focused:

4. Is it

Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have

fair use rationales

:

B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with

suitable captions

:

• Article could use more pictures, but that is not a GA requirement.

Overall:

Pass or Fail:

I am placing the article on hold. Racepacket (talk) 19:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As for press/news sources, the Grand Rapids Public LIbrary has an excellent resource through NewsBank to search articles from the Grand Rapids Press archives. That was an excellent resource in finding articles for an expansion of M-6 (Michigan highway) that I'm planning here in the near future. Imzadi 1979 → 20:08, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the tip. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 16:19, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

GrapedApe's thoughts and comments

Like the GA nomination page says, "additional comments are welcome," so here are my thoughts and review of this article.--GrapedApe (talk) 15:44, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Specific comments

• The second and third paragraphs in the lead begin with "GVSU...". Please consider changing this to make the prose more lively. Actually, there are a few other paragraphs that begin this way. Please consider changing all of them.
• I'm not really sure what the adjective "comprehensive" means when applied to a university. That word doesn't appear anywhere else in the article. Is it possibly from the
  Comprehensive university is a redirect back to University
  .

• I've seen numerous institutions described as this, including Florida State University. See this article.P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 23:07, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• The sentence "Classes are also offered at the university's growing Pew Campus in Downtown Grand Rapids, Meijer Campus in Holland, and through centers at Muskegon and Traverse City established in cooperation with local community colleges." is clunky. It isn't clear whether these other locations are satellite campuses, extensions, or mere places where off-campus classes are conducted.
• The third paragraph is 1 very short sentence and 1 run on sentence. Please consider re-orienting the information into a more traditional paragraph structure.
• Bill Seidman
  is described as a "local businessman", but his bio states that he was much more than that, including the head of the FDIC. In fact, he doesn't appear to have owned a Grand Rapids-based business at all.
• The phrase "The middle-late 1960s ..." is clunky. Consider re-wording
• Don't need the preposiiton "to" in the phrase "renaming the college to "Grand Valley State University"."
• For "The 1980s and 1990s saw addition" add "the" before "addition"
• For "satellite campuses or centers". Which ones are campuses and which are centers. Also, what's the difference?
• THe phrase "the university's first 50 years of history and progress" seems NPOV. Try something like "the university's first 50 years of existence and development." "Progress" implies some kind of positive development, which is NPOV.
• There should be more informaiton about the Muskegon centers. Prose-ify the bullets.
• More info on Traverse City center? Or merge it into other sections.
• "The Department of Public Safety provides law..." Whose department is this?
• Here, the phrase "self-empowered" is ambigious. Since when does a police department's authority come from itself?
• "Because Allendale doesn't have its own police department..." Does this mean the Allendale campus or the municipality?
• The sentence beginning with "he Pew Campus Security and Regional Centers..." is a comma splice. Also, a run-on.
• According to the US News, GVSU is "selective" not "more selective." Also, the acceptance rate is 81%, not 69%. Please double check the rest of these numbers.
• Is http://www.meritaid.com really a reliable source?
• Under the "Study abroad" section, the university is called "Grand Valley" for the first time in the article (as far as I have noticed). Is that a real nickname? If so, please city it at the top of the lead.
• "GVSU is also ranked as one of "America's Best Colleges" by Forbes Magazine and the..." This sentence is troubling, since it implies that being listed on that list is some kind of accomplishment, when there are a LOT of schools on that list, and simply being on that list is not an accolade.
• "Only behind the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, Michigan State University, and Michigan Technological University." I have no idea what this sentence fragment means.
• Italicize the periodical names.
• Combine the last two sentences in the "Ranking" section.
• Make the "University libraries" into 1 section. There are way too many tiny sub-sections.
• The language in " New Allendale campus library" is sloppy. The first phrase "moving forward with plans to..." is way too ambigious. What is the stage of development? Are there actualy plans? A capital campaign? Just idle talk? Also "moving forward" is a politician's cliche, so please find a better way of saying it.
• What the heck is
  NASAD
  ?
• What connection does Alexander Calder have with GVSU or the building that bears his name?
• Is the "GVSU art program" under a particular college? Is there something that sets it apart from the rest of the school?
• Is "unpremiered" a real word?
• Need more prose for "Student life"
• Under " Sustainability." It is sloppy to lead off with a mission statement. Consider reading Wikipedia:Avoid mission statements.
• What the heck is an "Academic community? Prose this, please.
• There are two media sections. Why?
• Prosify the alumi section.
• The Tony Danza section is trivia
• Use the same dating system in the references.

Broad style and language thoughts

• Way too many 1 sentence paragraphs (too many to list)
• Way too many short sections: Research, Accreditation, Study abroad, Mascot, FIght song, Media, Regional events, media
• Way too many sections with just bullets: Colleges, Fraternity and Sorority Life, Honorary & professional organizations, Academic communities, Community outreach

• I agree and would at the very least transform the college and community outreach into a prose form. The MOS does not prohibit bullet lists in an article, it just says that good articles should cover important items in a prose, narrative fashion. You are not required to list every Fraternity and Sorority Life, Honorary & professional organizations, or Academic community in the article, but I would not go to the trouble of removing the lists since they are already there. Racepacket (talk) 21:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• There is a lot of inconsistency with the amount of references that are used. Some paragraphs have 1 reference at the end, while others (like New Music Ensemble) are filled with them. It looks sloppy.

While I agree that many of these criticisms are valid, take a look at Wikipedia:What the Good article criteria are not. We don't have to address all of the MOS, just 5 key parts. Racepacket (talk) 11:10, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

• Apparently this article is in worse shape than I thought. I see no way these issues can be addressed in the next couple of days, so I suppose a fail is inevitable. I'll keep working at it, but unfortunately there is not a very large enough pool of editors willing to work on this article. Thanks, P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 22:49, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • As long as the reviewers are willing, the review can stay open as long as necessary. The seven-day hold period is only a suggestion, not a hard requirement. Imzadi 1979 → 23:07, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I am monitoring your progress and continue to be available to answer your questions. Again, I understand that this is a volunteer, collaborative effort. We have all been through this. Racepacket (talk) 14:10, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks. I probably won't be able to do very much over the next several days, but hopefully after that I can make some progress. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 18:06, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Do the active editors of this article still want the GA to be kept open? Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 03:47, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• It wouldn't hurt my feelings if you failed this nom so we can have more time to clean things up. There are some good recommendations here that could take quite a while to implement. Regards, P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 16:15, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• If it looks like it'll take a while to fix everything (which it seems that it will be), then it should be failed for now so that there's no rush to get everything done. GA reviews are not meant to be indefinite. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 04:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Per the above, I'm going to fail this GAN, mainly so that you don't feel overly rushed trying to get everything done; you can just re-nominate when you're ready and everything's fixed. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 02:12, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about how this ended. Thank you for all that you have done to improve the article. Racepacket (talk) 09:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. There are some good suggestions here. We can take our time fixing them rather than rush through. Thanks, P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 13:14, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]