Talk:Greater Poland Uprising

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On the article's name

What does Wielkopolska mean? Shouldn't this series be moved back to Greater Poland Uprising or Greater Polish Uprising? It's English wiki, you know... Halibutt 16:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

... and the
WP:UE is binding. Halibutt 19:20, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply
]
What does "
Greater Germany"?) logologist|Talk 05:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply
]
The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no move This note has been added since this move request was never closed. Septentrionalis 05:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vote on proposed move

WP:UE is binding and the region of Polish Wielkopolska is called Greater Poland
in English

Discussion

As per what Logologist wrote above: I don't really get his arguments. English language, just like any other language in the world, has got its own set of toponyms. If there is a widely-accepted English name for the region, then why exactly should we use the name that is not used by anyone in English? Warsaw is not called Warszawa in English and we don't plan to move

Wielkopolska in English and we'll have to live with that. Using Polish for personal names or toponyms without a widely-accepted English name is ok with me, but not in the case of places that do have their English names. This is an English language wiki after all. Halibutt 12:35, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

Halibutt, Logologist and I struggled with this a little while ago (see our discussion).
Wielkopolska is used in the English literature, but it is not the most common version. The situation is complicated by the fact that there are two corresponding English toponyms: Great Poland and Greater Poland.
Also, Google books returns one hit for "Wielkopolska uprising", and none for the other two variations.
Although there exist English language toponyms for many places on this planet, it is now common to use the original language except when the English version is favored overwhelmingly. This is why my English language map of Poland shows every city name (with the exception of Warsaw) in Polish (even Kraków, for which there exists the toponym Cracow). Since Warsaw is the sole exception, no one is suggesting we rename Warsaw Uprising to Warszawa Uprising. However, it's perfectly ok to say Free City of Kraków. In light of this convention, and the lack of a single common English version to trump the Polish version, I think using Wielkopolska is appropriate. Appleseed (Talk) 15:19, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sure it is appropriate. However, I'd oppose promoting the name at all cost by naming articles that way. A simple redirect could suffice IMO. Halibutt 16:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Now then, I took a look at your discussion and I'm sorry I didn't know of it earlier. For sure both of you have a point in that some of the modern media (especially the press) tend to use local names for the sake of clarity or brevity, or for whatever reason. Same thing happens in Polish language where the youngsters (and, sadly, the journalists) do not even understand the Polish names for, say,
Getynga, Chociebuż and such, and they use the original names instead. However, at least in Polish this notion is still rather informal, with the dictionaries pointing to the proper names rather than their German, English or other spellings. It is now acceptable to call Stanisławów
"Iwanofrankowsk", though the dictionaries would mention the earlier name as Polish. Of course, this could be blamed on inertia of the world, as Logologist put it, but that's how it is.
I guess the same applies to English language, and especially its international version we use here. As a modern lingua franca, English has to adopt all the words people import from their own languages and use them in their own English. Hence the problem with "Wielkopolska" an educated Brit would most probably never use. It might indeed be used in the media or over the web, though I bet in everyday speech such a term would simply confuse a native English speaker with no knowledge on Polish language. On the other hand it's nothing more than my assumption and I'm by no means a native speaker of Shakespeare's language. Anyone? Halibutt 16:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm personally against the move, but as the closing admin, I don't want to have the vote that decides between "move" and "no consensus", so I'll abstain. —Nightstallion (?) 11:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The vote has been extended until

12 March 2006. —Nightstallion (?) 08:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

Reopening?

Mh, actually, it seems this possibly should have gone on a few more days. Would anyone object to opening the debate for, say, three more days, i.e. until

WP:RM. —Nightstallion (?) 13:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

Good idea. logologist|Talk 06:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Polonia Maior (Greater Poland)

As it happens the core province of Poland DOES have a name of Greater Poland or Great Poland. It was used for centries, first in Latin as Polonia Maior. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.4.130.211 (talk • contribs) 15:45, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it has its name, but in Wikipedia we prefer the names we invent ourselves. After all they are better. You know, we teach all the foreigners the proper Polish names and stuff.. //Halibutt 16:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sockpuppetry

Please note, that in the poll above,

are confirmed sockpuppets [1]. The outcome of the vote may change based on this information -- Chris 73 | Talk 22:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved all per consensus. —Doug Bell talk 22:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Wielkopolska Uprising → Greater Poland Uprising — Use the more common English toponym Appleseed (Talk) 22:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also included:

  • Greater Poland Uprising (1794)
  • Greater Poland Uprising (1806)
  • Greater Poland Uprising (1846)
  • Wielkopolska Uprising (1848) → Greater Poland Uprising (1848)

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
  • Support per nom. Appleseed (Talk) 22:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. It is
    policy, and wise policy, to use English words. We are not here to hold our readers' noses, and ladle knowledge down their throats; we are here to communicate with them, in English; readers of Polish are using the Polish wikipedia. I would strongly support; but I suspect that the English here is Great Poland. Septentrionalis 23:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]
And, analogously, "
Małopolska" is "Small Poland." logologist|Talk 15:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply
]
Don't trust analogy: Lesser Poland. Septentrionalis 15:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Then perhaps we should resume "translating" "Belarus" as "White Russia"? logologist|Talk 21:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, because the idea is not "translating" names, but merely reflecting common English usage. -
Evv 17:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

Discussion

Add any additional comments:
  • Slightly off-topic comment: I hadn't noticed before the articles on Greater and Lesser Poland. Those names are widely used, but as far as I know "Great" and "Little" are the more common ones (and Britannica's choice, often mentioning Wielkopolska and Malopolska in parentheses :-). -
    Evv 18:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Google Books inquiry: "Greater Poland" (261); "Great Poland" (257). Olessi 19:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
When I made the proposal to move, I was under the impression that "Greater Poland" is more common than "Great Poland", but perhaps this requires a closer look. Google Books is a good start. Thanks, Olessi. Appleseed (Talk) 20:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The first result for "Greater Poland" is actually

"Then came the World War, and with it a miracle. Poland's prospects were not bright. If Russia won, the Poles could only look forward to a greater Poland ..."

This is not the province; and about the third of the results seem to be similar uses (like Greater Bulgaria). All of the Great Poland results seem to mean the province. Septentrionalis 20:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe this helps: Google Print for "Greater Poland" Wielkopolska (24 books) & "Great Poland" Wielkopolska (60 books). -
Evv 17:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]
If this were an actual problem, we could use "Great Poland uprising". Does anyonre else think it is? Septentrionalis 20:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I can see the possibility of confusion Logologist mentions (that is, before reading the article's first paragraph). But I find Wielkopolska even more confusing for anyone not familiar with Slavic words :-) I knew of
Великая Отечественная Война
, and yet didn't made the connection with the "Great (Greater) Poland" I'm familiar with.
Anyway, for readers familiar with Slavic terms, any such confusion would be put aside by following using "Great/er Poland (Wielkopolska)" in the article's body. -
Evv 17:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]
No, as in
Evv 17:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Great Poland

The move has been completed, but unfortunately we may soon have to consider a move to

Great Poland, if indeed that toponym is more common. If that is the case, in addition to the Uprising articles we would need to move Category:Greater Poland, Category:Greater Poland Voivodeship, Greater Poland, Greater Poland Voivodeship, etc. Appleseed (Talk) 22:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

You know, it is a bit of work to do these. It would be nice since this wasn't the first move of this article if you are sure this won't be the name-of-the-week. :-) —Doug Bell talk 23:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I thought the consensus (except Logologist, of course) was Great Poland uprising; fortunately that doesn't take an admin. Septentrionalis 00:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
<sigh>Perhaps you are correct and I misread the consensus on the new name. It will take an admin to do the moves since the redirects have histories now. I'm going to give it a little time to make sure this is the consensus, but assuming it is I will move them again as requested. I'll keep an eye out here for the next couple of days to see if any other opinions are offered. —Doug Bell talk 00:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
lol I prefer Uprising, in its current form :-) In any case, if "Great" is more common, I guess that the article on "Greater Poland" should be moved first, and only then the rest (including this one). - Regards,
Evv 17:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]
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