Talk:Grubori massacre/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
Coatrack
The article needs to be rearranged. Many sources have nothing to do with the main topic. The Background section is too long for this article length. Also, we should not arbitrarily choose what to include in that section, unless the sources themselves link some events.--WEBDuB (talk) 15:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- Fully agreed. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 19:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- What do you propose? It is necessary to have some background information in the lead-up to Operation Storm and this massacre. The sources that talk about what happened in the years prior are not going to mention this specific event. I tried to make the background section as concise as possible, although OyMosby insisted on adding additional information. --Griboski (talk) 19:08, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- Hold up now. Griboski you already added that RSK ethnic cleansed Croats and Non-Serbs. I simply added the number of victims. Then you insisted on adding a whole part about Croatian Army ethnic cleansing and data to “balance” things with Operation Storm already in the mix. I account for perhaps 5% maybe less, of the Background contribution at most. I will say that Operation Storm is definitely linked to the cleansing of Non-Serbs years prior by RSK. OyMosby (talk) 19:21, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- We shouldn't detail RSK ethnic cleansing and then omit the fact that HV also engaged in cleansing operations during the war, all before August 1995. You wanted the number of Croats expelled years before to be added to counterbalance the fact the number of Serb refugees from OS were listed. That's fine. The background is OK now but it could use some tweaking. --Griboski (talk) 19:55, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- Like I said, I was not the one who added RSK Ethnic cleansings to begin with so just wanted that to be clear. Your recent edits to the background seem fine to me. I see no coatrack issue. So I think Griboski and I find the background as is to be alright. CheersOyMosby (talk) 20:22, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- Which source linked the crimes of the RSK leaders to the massacre of elderly and unprotected civilians? In the background section we should to add only those sources that discuss the main topic.--WEBDuB (talk) 15:26, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- Yet you take no issue with the listing of ethnic cleansing by Croatian forces before Operation Storm? What linked the [massacre and cleansing of defenseless civilians] of the RSK leaders? Being that the massacre happened after Operation Storm, why have that in the background as well? Also I did not include the mass ethnic cleansing campaigns of the RSK in the background. It was already their. I simply included the number of unprotected civilians be it elderly, men women or children. OyMosby (talk) 16:19, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- OyMosby to be fair, some months back you added the same information about RSK ethnic cleansing on the Operation Storm article. Shortly after I made my edits on the background section to this page, you added some of that same information which suggests you were paying close attention to my edits. If I hadn't included it, you probably would have. Anyway, it's not important who added it but that it's there.
- WEBDuB you're likely not going to find any sources that directly link this event to RSK crimes but the thing is, there needs to be some background information for every event. Operation Storm is a given but it seems to me that if we only include that, we're leaving out a good portion of significant events that preceded it. The situation is much worse at Varivode massacre where the background section is about twice as long as it is here and there are two lines that actually deal with the killings themselves. --Griboski (talk) 18:25, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- There are not many sources on this topic, since the event was not so interesting to the public until this year. [1], [2] [3] What all the sources have in common is that the story begins with the ‘Freedom Train’ after the Operation Storm after the recapturing of the territory. The Baltimore Sun also covered the Serb-populated Military Frontier, the later proclamation of the RSK and the “terrorizing and killing of Croatian residents of Krajina in 1991”. The Balkan Insight mentions 200,000 Serbs who left the country. We can stick to that few pieces of information.--WEBDuB (talk) 18:52, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Griboski: You aren’t making sense. I watch this page and have edited back in February. Fact is you put the RSK Cleansing in not I. I only included number stats. How you drew the conclusion that I am “watching your edits closely” because at some point I edited Operation Storm is bizarre. Please stop claiming I am following your edits when I follow the pages themselves. This is not the first time you accused me and this is not the first time I explained this. The intro for Operation Storm spoke of the cleansing of up to 250,000 non-Serbs by RSK forces before my edits. And sure since you care about balance and fairness you should take no umbrage with me doing the same. This conversation seems baseless no point to it. As can be clearly seen HERE YOU included RSK carried out ethnic cleanings. And may I remind you as months ago that you have edited articles immediately after I did. But I never said anything. I follow these articles. You can see I edited on this article earlier this year. I likely would have included prior crimes to Operation Storm as you said had you edited here or not as general activity is show as this is one of many articles I follow. Nevermind all the article you edit that I didn’t touch. How am I stalking you exactly? As I can make the same case with any other editor here by such logic as I have been followed by after edits too. So enough with these baseless accusations distracting from the topic at hand. Seeing the poor quality of discussion here I’m not wasting further energy here as personal matters more important than all this require my attention. Then end. Bye bye. OyMosby (talk) 18:59, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- I never claimed I didn't add that information, so I'm not sure what the point is in linking to it. I only referenced the OS article as we've both engaged there before and are familiar with the background on RSK ethnic cleansing. All your edits on this page have come shortly after mine, including after I created it along with similar ones. It's just an observation. I take your word that you've been following them since. No need to get hasty. It's irrelevant anyway. I'm interested in improving the article. Best. --Griboski (talk) 21:48, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Griboski: You aren’t making sense. I watch this page and have edited back in February. Fact is you put the RSK Cleansing in not I. I only included number stats. How you drew the conclusion that I am “watching your edits closely” because at some point I edited Operation Storm is bizarre. Please stop claiming I am following your edits when I follow the pages themselves. This is not the first time you accused me and this is not the first time I explained this. The intro for Operation Storm spoke of the cleansing of up to 250,000 non-Serbs by RSK forces before my edits. And sure since you care about balance and fairness you should take no umbrage with me doing the same. This conversation seems baseless no point to it. As can be clearly seen HERE YOU included RSK carried out ethnic cleanings. And may I remind you as months ago that you have edited articles immediately after I did. But I never said anything. I follow these articles. You can see I edited on this article earlier this year. I likely would have included prior crimes to Operation Storm as you said had you edited here or not as general activity is show as this is one of many articles I follow. Nevermind all the article you edit that I didn’t touch. How am I stalking you exactly? As I can make the same case with any other editor here by such logic as I have been followed by after edits too. So enough with these baseless accusations distracting from the topic at hand. Seeing the poor quality of discussion here I’m not wasting further energy here as personal matters more important than all this require my attention. Then end. Bye bye. OyMosby (talk) 18:59, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- There are not many sources on this topic, since the event was not so interesting to the public until this year. [1], [2] [3] What all the sources have in common is that the story begins with the ‘Freedom Train’ after the Operation Storm after the recapturing of the territory. The Baltimore Sun also covered the Serb-populated Military Frontier, the later proclamation of the RSK and the “terrorizing and killing of Croatian residents of Krajina in 1991”. The Balkan Insight mentions 200,000 Serbs who left the country. We can stick to that few pieces of information.--WEBDuB (talk) 18:52, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- Yet you take no issue with the listing of ethnic cleansing by Croatian forces before Operation Storm? What linked the [massacre and cleansing of defenseless civilians] of the RSK leaders? Being that the massacre happened after Operation Storm, why have that in the background as well? Also I did not include the mass ethnic cleansing campaigns of the RSK in the background. It was already their. I simply included the number of unprotected civilians be it elderly, men women or children. OyMosby (talk) 16:19, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- Which source linked the crimes of the RSK leaders to the massacre of elderly and unprotected civilians? In the background section we should to add only those sources that discuss the main topic.--WEBDuB (talk) 15:26, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- Like I said, I was not the one who added RSK Ethnic cleansings to begin with so just wanted that to be clear. Your recent edits to the background seem fine to me. I see no coatrack issue. So I think Griboski and I find the background as is to be alright. CheersOyMosby (talk) 20:22, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- We shouldn't detail RSK ethnic cleansing and then omit the fact that HV also engaged in cleansing operations during the war, all before August 1995. You wanted the number of Croats expelled years before to be added to counterbalance the fact the number of Serb refugees from OS were listed. That's fine. The background is OK now but it could use some tweaking. --Griboski (talk) 19:55, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- Hold up now. Griboski you already added that RSK ethnic cleansed Croats and Non-Serbs. I simply added the number of victims. Then you insisted on adding a whole part about Croatian Army ethnic cleansing and data to “balance” things with Operation Storm already in the mix. I account for perhaps 5% maybe less, of the Background contribution at most. I will say that Operation Storm is definitely linked to the cleansing of Non-Serbs years prior by RSK. OyMosby (talk) 19:21, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
@WEBDuB: true the event got more traction this year due to the attendance of high profile politicians at the memorial, however this was actually one of the few documented cases of crimes following OS that was also reported in the Western press. The background so far doesn't stray away much from the information you mentioned there. --Griboski (talk) 22:19, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
I've trimmed the section. I think it's fine now. --Griboski (talk) 17:52, 7 September 2020 (UTC)