Talk:Johnson

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:42, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Johnson (disambiguation) → Johnson

P.S. ...in fact, this move has been suggested/supported twice just on this current talk page.

Since CelticWonder has seen fit to accuse me of a conflict of interest in his proposal, let me add some stats. In the absence of any other actual indicators that the surname page is not the primary topic, the hit counts indicate that it is correctly the primary topic:

• Johnson 4702 hits in February[1]
• Johnson (disambiguation) 576 hits in February [2]
• Only 12% of the people who reached the surname page were looking for something else.
• 88% of the readers of the pages were best served by the current arrangement.

It would make as much sense (i.e., none) to accuse CelticWonder of a conflict of interest in moving the dab page to the base name because his surname isn't Johnson. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:32, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

...and yet pick any two (or in some cases one) of the

undue weight

to your POV that the descriptive article about the name itself should be PT over a dab, which is indeed still contrary to how things are typically done here (as per my related examples above of other popular-use names). Also, there is no technical capability yet of removing "click-through" hits from "total" hits to a primary [article] without actually making the change and waiting a month for a "test phase". This is, in fact, the only TRUE reason why we can absolutely confirm that the dab pages are "more popular" than the name/surname pages of the other names I listed on here. What's to say that 87% of the 88% of the viewers "best served by the current arrangement" weren't in turn clicking on one of the names of people there that they were looking for initially (which for all intents could very well have been on the dab anyway by now), rather than information about the history of the surname?

Given this as-yet untested anomaly, I believe it could have best been served by the manner in which Smith and the current dab page for Johnson that also includes a link to a List of people with surname Johnson. Case in point, random example: why isn't Erik Johnson (17222 hits) listed on here also and not just here? Who makes the decisions about who is "more important" than others to be on two different lists? And seeing how large the list page has gotten with plenty of just as notable people on there, why hasn't the list on the current surnames page been merged yet with the list article, with simply a link on the surname page TO the list article? ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 21:07, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Editor consensus decides, like anything else. And the make-up of the lists at those two pages is unrelated to the primary topic of "Johnson". Please stop trying to shift the rest of Wikipedia into better alignment with your desire to keep/move the band Clannad at the base name. -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:35, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ha! Thanks for the unfounded accusation! If I was trying to "shift ... WP" to my will, I would be agreeing with your stance on this proposed move, not proposing a dab! Hilarious... ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 21:40, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Johnson (as a surname AND PT page, which includes double-linking with next page) = 4,702 hits
• List of people with surname Johnson (as a link from surname and dab pages) = 495 hits
• Johnson (disambiguation) (navigated via hatnote) = 576 hits — BUT...

1. How can we prove beyond all doubt with verifiable STATS that someone didn't do "GO: Johnson" → "Click name listed here" — as opposed to — "GO: Johnson" → "Read intended article about surname" ... IF the current PT is the article about the surname that INCLUDES information that would be better served on a list page that already exists (and with only prominent people actually referred as simply "Johnson" in the past listed on the dab page where they belong)?
2. Since we cannot do that, wouldn't the only way we could test this be to move the surname article to it's own article, remove the "popular names" off the surname article to be primarily on the list page already in place, and then see after a month's time whether the "surname" article is more "popular" than the "dab" page? (Note: I've removed the alleged "more important" people double-listed on the surname page since it would be unfair to decide who's "less important" than others to NOT be listed there also.)
3. This is the inherent flaw with using page view stats to compare an already-existing primary article that may NOT necessarily be the primary topic.

...so 4,701 hits for Johnson COULD easily have been a stepping stone for:

• Lyndon B. Johnson = 124,963 hits
• Magic Johnson = 116,825 hits
• Samuel Johnson = 31,861 hits

...and then why is Alan Johnson (6,461 hits, listed on surname page AND list page) decided to be "more important" than Brian Johnson (61,907 hits, only on the list page)? Aren't potentially unfair decisions like this exactly WHY we have the separate "list of people" page anyway when it comes to listing so many people? ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 22:14, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good move to remove the names from

WP:N, it should perhaps be deleted in any case. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:56, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply

]

• Oppose unless there's some indication that the surname is not the primary topic. Modeling after other names doesn't matter since other common names may or may not be the primary topic of their title -- being a surname neither implies nor precludes being the primary topic, and primary topics within a project do not have to have the disambiguator tacked on that other, non-primary ambiguous articles get. For example, The Book of Eli doesn't need to be moved to The Book of Eli (film) just because Tooth Fairy (film) has "(film)" tacked on. Forcing them into an unneeded pattern would be a foolish consistency. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Suggestion isn't for simple arbitrary consistency, as the topic in discussion is a common proper noun as opposed to the unique title of an artistic work (as in: was there anything notable before that movie with the exact title "The Book of Eli"?).

  Johnson (surname) only being one of them. ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 20:47, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  "Sheer number" of ambiguous articles is not one of the criteria for making none of them primary. Since no other reason besides "other pages are arranged this way", it appears to miss the point of

  WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Primary topic is determined by or should change because of those criteria. The arrangement of other articles ambiguous with other titles isn't one of the criteria. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:26, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  ...except for the fact that there is no technical capability yet of removing "click-through" hits from "total" hits to a primary topic without actually making the change and waiting a month for a "test phase". This is, in fact, the only TRUE reason why we can absolutely confirm that the dab pages are "more popular" than the name/surname pages of the other names I listed on here. ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 17:53, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Most of the pages on the disambiguation page (e.g.
  Johnson Bible College) derive their name from somebody with the surname Johnson, indicating that the surname as the common origin is the primary topic. 84.92.117.93 (talk) 23:45, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  The precise argument could be said in regards to Anderson, Barnes, Jackson, Jenkins, Lincoln, Lowe, and Walsh, yes? Technically Smith also, but it has uses other than a surname. Yet all of them are dab pages with a link to the surname, so I don't see your point. ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 00:19, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  I think there is probably a strong case for moving many (if not all) of the articles you mention, apart from perhaps Smith. If any moves are carried out however I think it should be done on a case-by-case basis. 84.92.117.93 (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Johnson, Anderson, Jackson, Jenkins are all the names of people, the clue is in the suffixes -son and -kins which are all Anglo-Saxon

  Lincoln, Lincolnshire is the original bearer of the name Lincoln: it was not named after any person, but is a contraction of a Latin phrase, see Lindum Colonia. --Redrose64 (talk) 01:00, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  So you would say that since the historical information pertaining to the origins of the name and use of Johnson listed on the surname page would then be the

  WP:DAB. ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 05:07, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Support. I think it is easier to understand if "Johnson" is the hub. I think that it will be easier on readers if when they type "Johnson" they get something which lists the various other articles like-named. Nice, clear and easy. This page isn't all that great, since you've got to click the 'disambig' link at the top just to see other articles named "Johnson", and you've got to click another link to see a list of people with the surname. Those are the two main reasons people would even type "Johnson" in the first place. So this article is just getting in the way! I think it'd be easier just to have this article (Johnson) the hub. There'd be less clicks for readers to get to where they want to go. From the hub you can choose to read of a description of the surname; a list of people with the surname; a list of people known just by "Johnson"; a list of things known just by "Johnson", etc.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:56, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  If the surname is the primary topic (and there's been no indication that it isn't), users at the primary topic article could get to the list of name holders through a link on the article -- or directly to some of the most prominent name holders. They don't have to click through to the disambiguation page. Please see

  WP:PRIMARYTOPIC -- your argument would appear to advocate for the removal of all primary topics and move all disambiguation pages to the base names, because that is the "nice, clear and easy" way to find "various other articles like-named". I do not think this move request is the place to make that kind of guidelines change. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:26, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  Actually, I thought that was the precise reason why we replace the primary article with a dab page = too many articles listed + dubious "primary" topic + unconfirmable "most hits" on surname page because of the fact that it's naturally the first one people hit when they type in "Johnson". ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 17:53, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Please provide some support for your claim that the primary topic is dubious. Over 4000 people reached the Johnson page in February. Of those, fewer than 600 clicked through to the disambiguation page. It is indeed confirmable that the "most hits" on the primary topic is because it's the primary topic. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:32, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Gladly. It's not "confirmable" that the "most hits" on a surname-being-PT is because it's an-article-about-a-surname as opposed to an-article-which-happens-to-list-popular-people off the better served list page, with linked to from the proposed dab-page-as-main-article. But I'll do that above, thanks. ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 22:14, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm concerned on getting readers where they want to go with ease. I suspect when people type Johnson they'll be after specific things named that, not a detailed account on the surname. They way it is now you've got to click multiple pages to find anything. If we move it like requested then it'll be quicker and easier for readers. I think that is what matters.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:29, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: lol... OH, your last name is
  conflict of interest might be forcing your hand on getting the history of your name as PT? I vote, due to this new information, that we support the move for at least a test phase of one month. ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 17:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Please do get at least some support for your wildly implausible claim before building upon it. There is no conflict of interest; I gain nothing from having the information available at the base name or at another title. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:32, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  A

  undue weight to your POV that the descriptive article about the name itself should be PT over a dab, which is indeed still contrary to how things are typically done here (as per my related examples above of other popular-use names). It's synonymous to asserting that an autobiography of your notable family's history is "more important" than the primary need for a dab page. ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 20:49, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  I didn't specify financial. I have nothing to gain based on the position of the pages, and I have no conflict of interest. I would only like to see the primary topic at the base name to best serve the WP readers, and the current arrangement does that. -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:35, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  With the current limitations of evaluating "page hit stats", it is impossible to outright conclude that "the current arrangement ... best serve[s] the WP readers" without further testing, as reflected by my response above. ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 23:27, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A quick comment: let's leave the Conflict of Interest on JHunterJ's part out. His arguments here are completely consistent with his arguments about similar moves in the past. Easy to confirm by looking at his contribution history. (John User:Jwy talk) 17:27, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

 Done ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 17:51, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I can't digest all the above debate, but would like to point out that something seems horribly wrong in the current situation where someone trying to learn about "Johnson", as a figure alluded to in some literary context, would not be able to find their way to Samuel Johnson without knowing what answer they were looking for. They would go from Johnson to Johnson (disambiguation) to List of people with surname Johnson and then scan a long list, from which they would be unlikely to click on Samuel Johnson (disambiguation) and be led to Samuel Johnson. The encyclopedia is not serving its readers well in the current situation. He is often referred to by surname alone. Possibly LBJ (as in "the Johnson administration") is another person who ought to be made more prominent. Perhaps these two ought to be listed alongside Johnson (composer) on the dab page? PamD (talk) 23:46, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  I completely agree with that — most prominent figures *should* be under the People section on the dab page for ease of navigation. As this case includes at least two people who I agree have been referred to as simply "Johnson", it seems you are saying you'd likely agree that Johnson should reflect such a dab page as opposed to the current layout reflecting the history of the name itself. ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 23:56, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  If you completely agree, why did you remove the link to Samuel Johnson from the base name article? -- JHunterJ (talk) 01:30, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  ...because the name links are (were) artificially increasing page hits on the surname page, as opposed to being listed on the dab page where they belong. ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 01:36, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Not artificial. You also can't have it both ways. The complaint here is that some people who might be encountered in reliable sources by the last name Johnson alone can't be found, when, before your edit, they could be found easily with a single link from the article at the base name. -- JHunterJ (talk) 01:39, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  ...OR just as easily if the dab was the primary article and the most common people (Dr Johnson, two presidents, and Magic) were listed there! ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 01:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Right, if the surname article isn't the primary topic, which at the moment it is. -- JHunterJ (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Oookay, so we're in agreement that the list of most common people who share the surname (that also were referred to as simply "Johnson") would be on the "primary article". I've already countered your claim that the surname history page having more hits than the dab article as dubious, with deductive reasoning as to why. So what then is your lingering opposition to making the dab the PT? ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 02:07, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  My ongoing disagreement is that the article about the surname appears to be the primary topic. That I haven't continued to restate my view each time you make a new claim doesn't mean I've changed my view. -- JHunterJ (talk) 02:20, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  ...and I've explained why the surname article very likely only artificially "appears to be the primary topic" because it was previously partially acting as a dab page itself. I'm certain that if "most common people" were rather listed on the dab page, it would suddenly garner more hits than the surname page. ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 02:36, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm - I've just searched Google Scholar for "Johnson" in article title, and not found as many references to Samuel, without his forename, as I expected, other than various editions of Boswell's "Life of Johnson" - but quite a few to LBJ as plain "Johnson". But I still think it ought to be easier to find the article on the author of "Johnson's Dictionary" by searching for his name. PamD (talk) 00:00, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The multiple steps issue and the problem of "where-do-we-list-Howard-Johnson" may be eased by the careful choice of a hatnote. Currently it's this:

For other uses, see Johnson (disambiguation).

change it to this:

This article is about the surname Johnson. For people having that surname, see List of people with surname Johnson. For other uses, see Johnson (disambiguation).

--Redrose64 (talk) 13:20, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

...and then we'd be undoing these two reverts (or something to that effect) as a result? If so, I'd be satisfied with that. ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 17:51, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per JHunterJ's stats indicating that most users who type in Johnson don't feel the need to look at the dab page. Propaniac (talk) 03:04, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  And I'll remind you too that people "don't feel the need to look at the dab page" because the people who they're actually searching for happen to be listed on the surname page instead of the dab-as-PT page where they belong. ₪— CelticWonder (T·C) " 03:08, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Is that what that 1-2-3 post was talking about? To be honest, I couldn't understand at all what you were trying to say (and I wasn't terribly bothered, because the premise that Wikipedia consensus must be based on data proven "beyond all doubt with verifiable stats" is false). If users are coming to the surname page at the base name, and either finding the topic they're looking for on the surname page, or clicking from the surname page to the list of people with that surname, that's fine. I don't see why that indicates any need to move the disambiguation page to the base name, or to merge the list of people to the disambiguation page. Propaniac (talk) 03:22, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.