Talk:K League 1
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Untitled
I commented the claim for the oldest professional league, since the
- Many people would not think of Saudi Arabia being part of Asia; I suspect that is the reason for the error. -- Visviva 15:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
It is clear that both FC Seoul and Jeju United are continuations of the clubs that were previously known as Anyang LG Cheetahs and Bucheon SK respectively.
The article specifically states that all sides in the "K-League champions" and "All-time K-League member clubs" sections are listed with their current names, and it is just a personal opinion that the achievements of the clubs when known as Anyang and Bucheon should be considered separate from the overall franchise (perhaps understandable given the nature of football support and the opposition to the relocation of both sides), however it is not appropriate for Wikipedia.
I would strongly suggest that the article should NOT be reverted to include Anyang and Bucheon in the lists again.
Original claim
Request Information
- Request made by: Holyjoe 07:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Where is the issue taking place?
- This issue is focused on the K-League page, and also on the pages for FC Seoul and Jeju United FC.
- Who's involved?
- A user by the name of User:Buteur.
- What's going on?
- A series of edits and reverts that reflect the opinions of certain football fans in Korea, as opposed to the actual facts.
The issue surrounds the relocation of the LG-owned football club Anyang LG Cheetahs to Seoul in 2004 and the subsequent name change to FC Seoul. A number of Korean football fans feel an enormous amount of anger about the move, and when the SK-owned football club Bucheon SK moved to the island of Jeju and renamed themselves Jeju United earlier this year they were even more angry.
The K-League article that I created clearly states in both the "K-League champions" and "all-time member clubs" sections that teams are listed with their present-date names in the case of sides that have previously changed names, as a number of other clubs have relocated or gone through name changes in the past. With that provision made, the article should link to the FC Seoul and Jeju United FC pages, both of which contain comprehensive information on the history of the clubs, and there should be no mention of 'Anyang Cheetahs FC' and 'Bucheon FC' in the list.
The user Buteur has, on numerous occasions, edited the lists mentioned to distort the basic facts. The user has included pages titled
There are several POV edits to the FC Seoul and Jeju United pages ("betray Anyang fans", "became second immoral club" etc) that have no place in a Wikipedia article as it is more suited to a fan page, which Wikipedia quite clearly is not.
The following link contains the official history of FC Seoul: http://www.fcseoul.com/eng/fc_history.jsp
Whilst the Jeju United website doesn't have an English section, the following page with dates is the Korean history section: http://www.jeju-utd.com/club/club_history.asp?loc=skfc&subloc=120
- What would you like to change about that?
- I believe there are two courses of action that should be followed if the user Buteur wishes to maintain that the LG-owned club previously known as Anyang LG Cheetahs is separate from the club now known as FC Seoul (ditto the SK-owned club in the case of Bucheon SK and Jeju United)
1) Separate pages should be created for each and every instance of relocation and name change with Korean football clubs. In both cases that would require four separate wikipedia entries, yet the user is choosing only one instance of the clubs' relocations to separate the history into two. Several other sides (
2) The information pertaining to one club should be consolidated on the one page, titled with the club's current name, as it is a continuation of the history of the side. I would then suggest that the
For something with as limited an appeal as Korean football has, I don't think it is neccessary to over-complicate matters and as the clubs are corporate-owned as opposed to community clubs in the European sense, it is correct to limit the clubs to one entry as long as the appropriate history is included. I believe I have more than done this with my revisions and edits to the FC Seoul, Jeju United and K-League pages yet the user wishes to distort events.
I previously requested that the Anyang Cheetahs FC and Bucheon FC pages, being redundant as they bore no relation to the previous names of the clubs, be deleted but they were instead turned into redirects. The user appears to have edited these back to the inaccurate articles that previously existed so I'd again suggest they should be removed or turned into permanent, locked redirects.
Mediation process
I am the mediator for the case. I hope to focus all discussion regarding the articles involved on this page. Please present the evidence, claims for and against the changes in the following sections. -- Evanx(tag?) 19:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Evidence
The issue is involving the insertion of the clubs "Anyang Cheetahs FC" and "Bucheon FC" in the list of K-League champions and all-time member clubs as substitutes for FC Seoul and Jeju United respectively, in reference to part of the clubs' histories.
The following is the current, disputed edit:
K-League champions Seongnam Ilhwa Chunma: 1993, 1994, 1995, 2001, 2002, 2003 Suwon Samsung Bluewings: 1998, 1999, 2004 Pohang Steelers: 1986, 1988, 1992 Hallelujah: 1983 Bucheon FC: 1989 <---------------------------------- Ulsan Hyundai Horang-i: 1996, 2005 Busan I'Park: 1984, 1987, 1991, 1997 Anyang Cheetahs FC: 1985, 1990, 2000 <----------------
All-time K-League member clubs Hallelujah (1983-1985) Busan I'Park (1983-present) Bucheon FC (1983-2005) <------------------------------- Pohang Steelers (1983-present) Kookmin Bank (1983-1984) Anyang Cheetahs FC (1984-2003) <--------------------- Hanil Bank (1984-1986) Ulsan Hyundai Horang-i (1984-present) Gwangju Sangmu Phoenix (1985; 2003-present) Seongnam Ilhwa Chunma (1989-present) Chonbuk Buffalo (1994) Cheonbuk Hyundai Motors (1995-present) Chunnam Dragons (1995-present) Suwon Samsung Bluewings (1996-present) Daejeon Citizen (1997-present) Daegu FC (2003-present) FC Seoul (2004-present) <-------------------------- Incheon United (2004-present) Gyeongnam FC (2006-present) Jeju United (2006-present) <---------------------------
The following are links to the official websites of both clubs, confirming that they have continuous histories from their foundations in 1983 and 1984:
- The official Jeju United website (Korean only, club history showing foundation dates): http://www.jeju-utd.com/club/club_history.asp?loc=skfc&subloc=120
- The official English-language FC Seoul website (club history): http://www.fcseoul.com/eng/fc_history.jsp
Claims for
As follows.
K-League
In the interests of keeping things simple, it seems best to reference each team by its current name in the 'K-League champions' and 'all-time K-League member clubs' sections. This may be contentious as some fans don't like to see FC Seoul or Jeju United's names credited with the respective histories, but given the nature of the clubs (corporate-owned and run since their creation) it is essentially a different situation to the European scenarios that fans cite. Indeed the histories are credited incorrectly in the current article by attributing the 1985 and 1990 titles to "Anyang Cheetahs FC" and the 1989 title to "Bucheon FC", as neither side were based in those cities at the time; both clubs moved to the cities at the end of 1995 and the official names they adopted from then on were 'Anyang LG Cheetahs' and 'Bucheon SK'. At the time of the 1985 and 1989 championship victories, FC Seoul were known as 'Lucky-Goldstar Hwangso', but they would change to 'LG Cheetahs' in 1990. Jeju United were known as 'Yukong Elephants' in 1989.
There is perhaps scope for the creation of a table of yearly champions to solve the issue of crediting the championships to the clubs as they were named at the time, but until such a thing is created then the overview of champions should be kept as simple as possible and the clubs should be referenced by their current names (there is a disclaimer stating that they are referenced by their current names in the case of sides that underwent name changes in the past). The all-time member club list should also reference the current names as it is clear that both Jeju United and FC Seoul are still the same clubs that made their league debuts in 1983 and 1984.
There are a number of POV comments in the current version of the page which have been changed and then reverted without explanation several times in the past.
The following is at odds with the article that details the entire history of the club from 1984 (!):
Founded 2004
Given the foundation date of 1984 and the detailed account of trophies won, the following is clearly incorrect:
Club Honors None
The following is not an official nickname of FC Seoul:
Nickname(s) FC Franchise
The following section heading doesn't conform to the NPOV standards as the previous "Move Back To Seoul" heading:
Betray Anyang Fans
Even today, the supporter group for FC Seoul is viewed by most of K-League supporters as a "traitor." Most of Korean football fans are against this franchising move.
The previous edit prior to Buteur's revert included a 'Timeline' section as a compromise to include an at-a-glance history of the name and location changes of the side which was again removed without explanation.
Given the relatively limited interest the subject matter has, it seems the best course of action is to maintain just one article for each K-League club. The history of the sides is, I believe, comprehensively dealt with in the article (prior to Buteur's current revision) and there is no need to subdivide the history of one single club into seperate wikipedia pages as has been attempted with the incorrectly-named 'Anyang Cheetahs FC' page.
Similar problems with the FC Seoul page, namely the foundation date of the club being at odds with the article history (!):
Founded 2006
Incorrect nickname:
Nickname(s) Immoral United
POV comments:
In 2006, Bucheon SK abandoned their own fans and moved to Jeju
They became second immoral club after FC Seoul.
Irrelevant material for a wikipedia article:
Fans of Bucheon FC are denying that this franchise is not the successor of Bucheon F.C.
Again I believe the article (prior to Buteur's current revision) adequately deals with the history of the side and that the emotive statements should be removed to conform to Wikipedia standards.
Claims against
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimbledon_FC
This club has changed to M.K. Dons. However, there are articles on Wimbledon FC. Almost same stories with Anyang and Bucheon's franchising case. Is there anyone to remove that articles and redirect that site to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK_Dons ? If you want to erase our historical memories, then remove that article first then, apply the same logics to Bucheon and Anyang's history! M.K. Dons is the continuation of Wimbledon FC, isn't it?
General Opinion What is general opinion? No korean football fans but FC Seoul fans think that was going back to Seoul. National team supporters and other K-League supporters demonstrated against that franching move. That is the fact. FC Seoul is the most unpopular club in K-League now. More than 90% fans think that was wrong dicision. Only FC Seoul fans and LG thinks that is going back to Seoul. Isn't it extremely one-sided opinion?
Worse than LG What was happended to Bucheon fans? SK has announced that they have decided to move to Jeju Island. It's worse than M.K. Dons case. Isn't it true? Most of Korean football fans became angry about that. Not only Bucheon fans but also whole K-League supporters(execpt FC Seoul fanse). In addition, what did they do? They showed their anger about that franchising move. Isn't it true?
What is neutral? Only to hide shameful fact, that is the neutral? Do not try to hide bad side of two franchising teams. That is the true. Like M.K. Dons, most of Korean football fans hate two teams. Is there any exceptions about that? Is there any other K-League supporters don't call that teams as immoral fc?
History I have never supportered and cried for the team in Jeju Island. Until 2004, there were no FC Seoul, until 2006, there were no Jeju United. They've won the title as Anyang and Bucheon. Is there any Seoul fans who cried in 2000? Is there any Jeju fans who cried in 2001? Who crited for that teams? Anyang and Bucheon citizens not Seoul nor Jeju. What is the fact? What is the neutral? Do not try to distort K-League History!
- The problem with the edits that you have made to the articles is that they are factually inaccurate and "distort K-League History", something which you said shouldn't be done.
- 1) You edited the team names to "Anyang Cheetahs FC" and "Bucheon FC", when the teams have never been officially named as such. Their official names at the time of their demise were "Anyang LG Cheetahs" and "Bucheon SK", so the names should reflect that in the article. There is a lot of resentment towards the corporate ownership of the clubs and it seems that editing out the corporate identites is an attempt to get a small bit of revenge. This is distorting K-League history.
- 2) You said "until 2004, there were no FC Seoul, until 2006, there were no Jeju United". Correct in as much as the names didn't exist, but then again until the 1996 there was no Anyang LG Cheetahs or Bucheon SK - the teams were known until that point as LG Cheetahs and Yukong Elephants. The LG-owned club only won one of its titles whilst called Anyang LG Cheetahs, and the SK-owned club never won its title when it was called Bucheon SK. If you wish to credit the championships to the name by which the club was known at the time then your edits are innacurate, and are distorting K-League history.
- The article clearly states that honours are credited to the clubs with their current names in the case of sides that have been relocated for ease of simplicity. As has been suggested above, perhaps you might like to contribute a table history similar to this one on the English Premiershipentry if you wish to distinguish the individual champions in such a manner.
- 3) The history of FC Seoul and Jeju United both incorporate four namechanges. The history of Busan I'Park incorporates five namechanges and Seongnam Ilhwa Chunma three. Yet your edits only revolve around one particular change of name for FC Seoul and Jeju United. Your claims that 'Anyang Cheetahs' have a history from 1984-2003 and 'Bucheon FC' from 1983-2005 are incorrect and are distorting K-League history.
- 4) The situation of the clubs in Korea is complicated by the corporate ownership of some of the sides. In that sense they are different than the community clubs found in Europe and the situation isn't really comparable to Wimbledon/MK Dons. Both FC Seoul and Jeju United were founded, financed and run as sporting divisions of major corporations and have relocated in the past. They were not community clubs in the strictest sense of the world, and whilst their relocations were certainly undesirable they are still the same team and should be treated as such here when dealing with continuous league membership. Lucky-Goldstar Hwangso, LG Cheetahs, Anyang LG Cheetahs and FC Seoul are not four different clubs, they are different names the same club went by during its history.
- 5) The FC Seoul article makes clear reference to the protests of the supporters ("This proposed move provoked a significant amount of anger from the local supporters of the club, resulting in series of demonstrations by the supporters. Further fueling the resistance was the general consensus of the South Korean public that football clubs need to have strong regional ties, not a simple marketing branch of a corporation that could be moved without agreement of the fans."). The Jeju United article doesn't yet make reference to the strength of feeling against the move but that can be rectified in a future edit if done properly and, where relevant, the appropriate citations. There is no conspiracy to "hide" the move, however it should be presented fairly and in a NPOV manner.
- (for point 2 above, I should cite this site: http://www.rsssf.com/tabless/skorhist.html )
1. As I said, that is your opinion, not a fact or truth. Many other general football fans, including foreign K-League fans who live in Korea, think that was not a good decision.
2. After 1996, history of Yokong Elephants and Lucky Goldstar Cheetahs became the history of Bucheon and Anyang. However, franchise move is not the same case. Before 1996, there were no specific home stadium except Pohand Steelers. Your logic is as same as Seoul fans' self-rationalization that I'm sick of it.
3. Why AFC Wimbledon fans don't think MK Dons as the continuation of Wimbledon FC? Owner is same, why not? Have you ever thought about it?
4. Have you ever read K-League Yearbook? Do you know how they describe past histories?
5. After 1996, K-League clubs have their own hometown. Leaving that city or region means abandon their fans from that time, isn't it?
6. Can you rationnalize the Holocaust as the" neutral" point of view? Adolf Hitler was the patriot? For the football fans, franchise move is like that.
7. Do you know why FC Seoul supporters were isolated among the K-League fans? Why they couldn't join the K-League supporters' union?
8. That kind of rationalization of franchise move is not the neutral point of view. Do not try to hide the bad side of FC Seoul and Jeju United's history.
- Again your claims aren't all that accurate. It is incorrect to say that only Pohang Steelers had a "home town" prior to 1996 when they were POSCO Steelers. Daewoo Royals had been based in Busan since 1987, Ilhwa Chunma took up residence in Seoul from 1989-1995 with LG and Yukong both having joined them at Dongdaemun Stadium by 1991. Hyundai Horang-i took up residence in Ulsan around 1990. You're confusing adopting the city name in the team name with being based in the city (indeed despite changing their name to Bucheon Yukong for 1996, they didn't actually play in Bucheon until 2001 as they played out of Seoul's Mokdong stadium until then). FC Seoul, Jeju United and the K-League all credit the history of the clubs to the current side so you're going to have to come up with some 'proof' that it is indeed not the same.
- I should cite the official K-League website's entry for the history of FC Seoul (http://www.kleaguei.com/data/team/K09/history.aspx) and Jeju United (http://www.kleaguei.com/data/team/K04/history.aspx) here.
- I agree that moving the clubs were very bad decisions and I am strongly against such things happening as it ruins the league's chances of establishing localised bases for clubs and, in the case of FC Seoul, destroyed a great league rivalry between Suwon and Anyang. I certainly look forward to the day that relegation is introduced to the K-League so that hopefully both sides will drop into the lower divisions. :-) I am concerned however that you are making these edits as a football fan rather than a Wikipedian. There is no attempt to "hide the bad history", but rather to present it in an NPOV fashion (the core philosophy behind this whole website).
In addition, check these articles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimbledon_FC
Wimbledon F.C. was the name of a now defunct football club that played in south London. Founded in 1889, the club spent most of its history in non-league football, before a rapid ascent to the top flight of English football in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The club won the FA Cup in 1988 and spent most of the 1990s in the Premiership.
In 2003 following years of internal wrangling, the club moved seventy miles north to Milton Keynes in Buckinghamshire citing financial reasons, and the following year were relaunched with new colours and a new badge as Milton Keynes Dons. Many of the club's supporters responded by forming a new club, AFC Wimbledon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_dons
Milton Keynes Dons F.C. is a football club in Milton Keynes, England. As of the 2006–07 season, it plays in Football League Two. Milton Keynes are also the first football club in the U.K to be franchised and moved outside of the community to which it serves (Wimbledon).
The club came into existence on 21st June 2004 after a name-change by Wimbledon F.C., which had relocated to Milton Keynes nine months earlier.
It is legally the continuation of Wimbledon F.C., but most of that club's original fans no longer support it, having instead founded their own club, AFC Wimbledon, in south-west London, which they regard as the legitimate successor to Wimbledon F.C.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Wimbledon
AFC Wimbledon is a semi-professional English football club representing the area of Wimbledon and Merton in south London.
Most football fans regard AFC Wimbledon as a direct continuation of the now defunct Wimbledon F.C., and consider that the new MK Dons are no longer representative of the Wimbledon area, or, more importantly, the legacy and tradition of Wimbledon F.C.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FA_Cup
In 1988,Wimbledon's Dave Beasant became the first goalkeeper to save a penalty in an FA Cup final, when he denied John Aldridge of Liverpool. In the same final, Beasant also became the first goalkeeper to captain an FA Cup-winning side.
1 win: Barnsley, Blackburn Olympic, Blackpool, Bradford City, Burnley, Cardiff City, Charlton Athletic, Clapham Rovers, Coventry City, Derby County, Huddersfield Town, Ipswich Town, Leeds United, Notts County, Old Carthusians, Oxford University, Portsmouth, Royal Engineers, Southampton, Wimbledon
- It's not MK Dons, Wimbledon FC at that time. It's almost same story. What is the difference bewteen franchise move in Korea and U.K.? By the same way they describe The F.A. Cup history, we need to keep old names. Like seperation of MK Dons and Wimbledon FC articles, Bucheon and Jeju should be seperated articles.
Mediator's Response
I agree with the claims presented, especially regarding the POV statements which are highly unencyclopedic, not to mention against
However, at the same time, I understand the anguish of the fans affected. It is imperative that these emotions are not to be reflected by Wikipedia, although they can be mentioned.
Suggested Solution
Please review the following pages:
Liverpool and Everton have a shared and contentious history due to disputes and a breakaway. Their respective pages hold that piece of rivalry without voiding the NPOV.
This is the standard that the articles have to held up to.
Replace all POV comments. This applies to all articles in question. Words such as "immoral" and "betrayal" have to be replaced. Suggestions include "arguably unethical" and "many fans were dismayed by the seemingly unprofessional decision". If there is a need, I will assist with this process.
Merge related articles. I believe that the pages do not warrant 4 separate articles since they share a history and the move is essentially a renaming of the club. The main articles should be FC Seoul and Jeju United FC. Anyang Cheetahs FC and Bucheon FC should be redirected respectively. The redirection should only take place after the removal of POV comments. This is in recognition of the possibility that these fans would be successful in forming breakaway clubs as with the case mentioned above. It must be noted that the history of the FC Seoul and Jeju United FC recognise their previous entities and history in a clearer manner. For example:
FC Seoul is a football club based in Seoul, South Korea. It is currently owned and managed by GS Sports, a subsidiary of GS Group. The club is usually considered as a stronghouse in the K-League, with the financial backing of the GS Group, as well as having the advantage of playing in the nation's most populous city, which inevitably leads to higher average attendance. Founded in 2004, it was previously known as the Anyang Cheetahs FC from 19XX to 19XX and as LG Cheetahs from 19XX to 19XX. The club has undergone several name changes as well as relocations.
This is only a draft and editors should feel free to revise it in any way that corresponds to Wikipedia policies.
Comments
User Buteur is encouraged to avoid POV edits which only retards the progress of the article. Please refer to
-- Evanx(tag?) 18:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Recourse
I have already informed all concerned parties for this dispute. Please sign under the respective stands for the above suggested solution. If there is disagreement, do provide an alternative solution. Recourse will only be open for 5 days. By then, if there is no disagreement, the suggested solution will be the course of action with immediate effect. Non-participation should not be an excuse.
-- Evanx(tag?) 18:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Agree I am happy with the suggested course of action above.
Disagree
Like Wimbledon FC and MK Dons, we should have separated articles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Milton_Keynes_Dons_F.C.
The absence of ties
Yes, I know that using a computer video game as a source is not a good idea, however, I do tend to remember that in an earlier version of FIFA soccer, it would not allow games played in the K-League to end in a draw; every game had to have a winner and a loser. Did this rule ever exist? If it did, does it still exist? And thirdly, if this rule existed, is it worth noting in the main K-League article? Wjmorris3 01:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
K-League name
I noticed that the Korean professional football league became known as the K-League very soon after the Japanese J-League came into being. Is there some kind of connection between the organizations that would have led to the same naming scheme? Smoove K 05:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Unlikely. The phenomenon is not unique to football; cf. K-pop and J-pop. -- Visviva 07:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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Why is the paragraph in the introduction?
- The Lucky Goldstar (LG) corporation caused a huge controversy at the end of 2003 when they made the decision to uproot their Anyang LG Cheetahs team from the Seoul satellite city of Anyang and move into the empty Seoul World Cup stadium, becoming FC Seoul which caused a strong supporter protest against the move from many fans around the league. Then following the 2005 season SK announced it was moving the Bucheon SK team to Jeju Island, where they have become Jeju United.
Putting aside the poor writing and unencyclopedic and POV statements like "caused a huge controversy", "caused a stronger supporter protest" and "uproot", why is this even in this article? I'm removing it if there aren't any compelling arguments for keeping it. 98.204.112.111 16:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
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Name
Are we sure the official English translation is "Korea National Football League" as opposed to "Korean National Football League? And it this actually even used?--Cúchullain t/c 18:39, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
References/Assessment
This article lacks citations, which is why I have assessed it as C-class. I have access to some material that I will use at some stage to add some citations. Zawed (talk) 10:19, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
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