Talk:Krav Maga/Archive 1

We've got a 'See Also' link right now to Krav Magen, but looking through the (stubby) article and some of the linked material, the relationship between them is not clear. It appears that Krav Magen is a name applied to the style or interpretation of Krav Maga taught by a specific student of Imi Lichtenfeld. Or is it simply a different term for Krav Maga? Are the differences significant enough to warrant calling this a separate martial art, or are we talking about slightly different styles and personalities within the same system? Any one with more knowledge of the subject care to clarify? --Clay Collier 09:50, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Krav Magen reads like I advertisement. I say, delete the article, or at least merge it's notable info into Krav Maga. Atari400 07:58, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Krav Magen was the name Eli Avikzar gave to his interpretation of Krav Maga. So you are correct. After Imi approved the late Mr. Avikzar's research into Aikido and Judo, there became some differences in the application of techniques. The IDF seemingly saw the validity of many of the changes and thus Mr. Avikzar was appointed to take lead in the Krav Maga program in the IDF after Imi's retirement and subsequent endeavors to promote civilian Krav Maga. Now Krav Magen is proliferated mostly through two schools of thought, Guy Dar with Full Contact Krav, and Rick Seid with Frontline Krav. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.226.23.69 (talk) 15:36, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't get it. what's the difference between this and 'fighting to win the fight'? The article says 'system' but then basically says there is no system ('no hard and fast rules'), and it is not a sport. I don't mean to diminish it, but what is distinctive about it? 99.224.220.52 (talk) 21:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a badly written article, and it is my opinion that some of the assertions which have not been cited for some time need to be removed. The introduction sounds more like adolescent posturing than something one would expect to read in an encyclopedia. I would appreciate it if someone would rewrite the introduction with a more useful description, maybe a brief sentence that explains how it is distinctive from other military self-defense systems.--N0nr3s (talk) 00:12, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I tried to explain why the 'best' translation is close combat and not close contact, but I don't think it necessarily made sense. I think the confusion of defining maga combined with the confusion that some seem to have between the word "krav" and "karov" just makes it completely puzzling to some(one)? I would gently request that the current definition be left alone unless you are a native Hebrew speaker and feel that I've missed the mark here. Galutnik (talk) 04:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

A citation supporting your assertion of the 'best' translation would improve this article. Leaving the definition alone does not improve the article, in fact without a citation the definition is nothing more than assertion made by an anonymous user on the internet and should not be trusted. If no citation can be provided then it would be best if both definitions are included in the article with no POV being expressed on which translation is the more accurate.--N0nr3s (talk) 00:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me preface by saying that I'll do my best to track something down. That said - while I appreciate what is clearly a critically important method of quality control in general terms, I think applying it here is potentially a bit severe. I perhaps didn't make myself as clear as I should have. The original text that I deleted was empirically 'wrong' in a fairly basic way. Again, though, I will try to track down a citation. Could I impose on someone to share a link to somewhere on Wikipedia that defines an acceptable citation? Thanks. Galutnik (talk) 19:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC) well sir or madam you have th rright idea

Someone has pasted this on the article: "Krava Maga is not used in The Bourne series it is eskrima this is verified on the dvd"; it may be worth investigating. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.52.60 (talk) 01:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

This is acutally true regarding the Eskrima techniques, however I have heard one contributor to some of the fight scenes trains or teaches at KMAA LA. --75.171.102.125 (talk) 05:27, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I suggest a complete withdrawal of all references to specific people or organizations in the current usage section of this article. It has turned into a completely political discussion in which people promote their organization as well as that many of the details included in this section are plainly false. I appreciate that it is extremely difficult to find references for some of the statements proposed but the burden of proof is on the one making the statement. So please do not make proposals on this section if you can not support them.

I served as a Krav Maga instructor in the IDF for 3 years and am in contact with the head of Krav Maga for the IDF of 10 years, and several current members of elite IDF units, such as Sayeret Matkal, Duvdevan and Shayetet 13 and four of Imi’s original students,. I say this in support of that I am relatively well informed about Krav Maga and its current usage.

False claims made in this article: In Israel, Krav Maga is taught by Haim Gidon at the Wingate Institute: This is badly worded as it suggests that Mr. Gidon teaches for the Wingate Institute officially but this is not the case. As far as I am aware, Mr. Gidon might have rented out part of the faciliy for a course but not taught there officially on behalf of the institute.

One such unit is the undercover counter terror unit Sayeret Duvdevan whose chief Krav Maga instructor is Itay Gil. Krav Maga is also the official combat system of the Israeli Police and all Israeli Intelligence and security agencies[10]: This is an outright fabrication. Mr. Gil is not, has never been and has he ever claimed to be an instructor for any of these units. Also, the references suggested have nothing to do with the claims made.

Leading students: Unless you can support this using proper references, please do not make these statements.

I suggest that this section altogether should refrain from mentioning individuals or organizations and at the very least that people should not make claims without objective references for support.

Krav50 (talk) 01:23, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Dear Krav50,

Please tell us you are kidding. I mean no offense by what I am about to say, but I have a hard time believing you know Itay after some of your statements above. Point 1) There are security officers who work in old town Jerusalem who are immigrants from Russia and some were special operators in their military before moving to Israel. They only earn about $7/hour (if converted to American dollars) because they don't speak Hebrew well. They fight and deal with terrorists nearly if not EVERY day they work. Many of these men train with Itay at great personal expense. Please do not dishonor them by saying they are not elite. Point 2) Who did you think was behind the masks on the Human Weapon? They were Sayeret (various designation assignments) and YAMAM. Itay is sought out by Tactical Teams from all over the world. How do you suppose he was given access to them, but Moni Aizik was not? Because they know and respect him, after traiing with him, most had never heard of Aizik. His contribution to Krav Maga may not be as public as those from highly publicised org's, but they are none the less real and substantial; as are his two most active students Moshe Katz and Shrir Richman. Point 3) Itay to date is the only person not currently full-time in the military or Law Enforcement to be allowed access to some prisons in the Israeli Prison System. He trains them in "Control Tactics". Do you suppose this is because the Krav Maga he teaches works? Point 4) In the video on his website (www.Protect-USA.com) why do you suppose the news media interviews Itay about "Counter Terrorism Tactics"? Because he is the source in Israel most known for effective armed and unarmed responses to such things. Last point for now, the paragraph to which you are referring, was only altered to include Mr. Gil in regard to Sayeret Duvdevan. The other portions of that paragraph were already there and were not added to in order to make it appear that Mr. Gil trains all of the others. You are right in one respect for certain; Mr. Gil does not claim such things, as he is not seeking public fame. He is the best at what he does and this is why he is sought out. Mention his name to anyone in a Krav school in Israel and they know of him. I personally know people in Israel who have trained in Krav Maga for nearly two decades and did not know who Haim Gidon was when I mentioned him. My intention is not to insult Mr. Gidon, only to point out Mr. Gil's universally, albeit mostly undocumented, renown in Krav Maga's country of origin.

It bothers me how much this page seems influenced and controlled by politically motivated and uninformed persons. IF it is to remain, someone should do some serious research into the heart of Krav, the IDF and Israel's Law Enforcement branches (all the way "down" to the security officers). I am not suggesting I become that person as I am not sure I could refrain from leaving out those who are currently in the limelight in the civilian sector of Krav Maga. While it has become VERY popular among the civilians worldwide, it's roots are in the IDF and now among every branch of Law Enforcement in Israel.

To everyone else who reads this thread, please just take what I am saying to heart. All the politcal mess and bias toward people over this org or that is just becoming unreal. If the names of Units are going to be used, let's give credit where it is due. Thank you to those who at least think about my comments. --63.226.23.69 (talk) 22:16, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello all,

I am curious, as I am also still learning to interpret the rules here, would the link below serve as a Reference or as an External Link, or neither? Please explain so I can begin to get my bearings on how things work. I realize the Page Title would have to change to make it relevant, I am just curious how it might fit in here.....

Article on Itay Gil

Please read the whole thing in order to see the reference material(s). Columnist bounces around quite a bit and includes Service History inside current events inside personal opinion in humor.... you get the idea.

--KravTeacher (talk) 23:51, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Boaz Aviram has no other proof to his claim of being head of Krav Maga training for the IDF other than a book by David Kahn who he had convinced of his past with the IDF. Boaz is known by some as being the creators of videos on youtube where he deletes comments about the fact that what he does is bad Krav Maga, adding instead that those are the beginner videos. (as in they should be bad when in reality they should still be well performed simply of a lower level). He has made claims that defending his face with your hand would simply lead to your hand getting hurt then has said that this is what Imi was teaching, not the case. The IDF has had Imi as a head instructor teaching Krav Maga, then there was Eli Avikzar Imi's top student, until about the mid 80ies then there was Shahar Klarfeld a student of Eyal Yanilov who was a direct student of Imi and Eli Avikzar, Eyal Yanilov himself also was Darren Lavine's teacher. Shahar Klarfeld was the head of Krav Maga in the IDF until 2007, Imi was still going to visit Shahar Klarfeld to see how he was teaching Krav Maga until the mid to late 1990ies when Imi died (he died in 1998) meaning that Boaz Aviram's tenure as head of the IDF Krav Maga section would have had to go unnoticed by Imi, Eli Avikzar, Eyal Yanilov and Shahar Klarfeld himself who was holding the position since 1987. When Mr. Aviram claimed to have held the position since 1985. Eli Avikzar retired in 1987 as per a quote from Eli Avikzar's site "In 1987 Eli Avikzar retired from the Krav Maga Association and founded K.A.M.I. - Israeli Krav Magen Association, with Imi's blessing." (http://www.kami.org.il/new/home_eng.asp then click on "Founder"). An other interesting fact is that Avi Avisadon (8 Dan) was Eli Avikzar's top student and deputy Krav Maga instructor in the IDF. Then why would Eli then appoint Boaz Aviram who trained in Krav Magen (renamed Krav Magen by Eli Avikzar out of respect for Imi after having some disagreements about techniques) under Avi Avisadon and ranked as a 1st Dan (again http://www.kami.org.il/new/home_eng.asp click on founder scroll down to see "Aviram, Boaz" over Avi Avisadon if Avi was a dan 8? The reason, that would never happen, in fact the IDF went back to the source of Krav Maga to ask for a candidate, Eyal Yanilov was suggested but Shahar Klarfeld got the job. Shahar Klarfeld now is with Krav Maga Global the organization founded by Eyal Yanilov his teacher and is now part of the KMG online learning site Maxkravmaga.com (https://www.maxkravmaga.com/members/login.cfm?hpage=department105.cfm) at this address it mentions Klarfeld being the head of Krav Maga in the IDF. This is also mentioned by Eyal Yanilov in an audio interview on http://KravMagatalk.com that interview has been found free and accessible on the main page of the site. and talks about how Imi use to go back and visit the IDF for quality control. For this reason the lines about Boaz Aviram should be removed until substantiated, also they should simply be removed because they are obvious shameless promotional line added to the "Leadership" section to promote not even a single school but a single man. He since trained an other instructor, Kathysue Dorey Pohrte who has spammed the various Krav forums and social networks with Aviram propaganda, saying that he his better than no other Krav Maga teacher because he can teach anyone Krav Maga in 4 days. A bit of searching the web for his DVD "Pure Krav Maga Self-Defense Mastery" oyou will find an Amazon listing with a review by a someone from singapoor who's only amazon reviews are of Aviram's products yet a extremely wordy using the product's description's own word in a sales pitch, everyone usually give 5 stars exept 1 who gives 1 star. Really, any best sellers gets mixed reviews but not Mr Aviram. For these reasons I would ask that his promo lines in this Krav Maga page be substantiated by other people than himself and his students before being made scripture on wiki! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.211.182 (talk) 17:08, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I added a link to the European Commando Krav Maga Federation, it was removed. What is wrong with it? This is a federation NOT affiliated with Moni's CKM. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.11.226.145 (talk • contribs)

I removed the link again, as the link was promoting a krav organisation, and not a reference reading

the external links policy will give you more information. --Nate1481

15:31, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I concur. The link should not be included, as it provides no useful additional information that isn't found in this article. I have removed the link again. KhalfaniKhaldun 02:00, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

How large is the "federation"? Is it just one school or is it a mjor representative body or the leading advocate for this type of training in that area? ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:44, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello Everyone,

I have an old version of this article saved. I copied it an placed it in a document which I think could be quite valuable since things here seem to have gotten rather competitive. I could put it on a page of my site and use it as an external link if it is agreed that it may come in handy. The information was all verified and had MANY more references. I believe the current article could use some balance, the older version may do this in a way which no one could change or interfere with provided the external link to it remained.

What do you think? Give it a try or no?

--KravTeacher (talk) 04:33, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

All old versions are available in the page history ( the link at the top) if you have a specific one in mind that we can re add information and sources from that would be great! --Nate1481 15:35, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Or you can put it up in your userspace. Just create page such as User:KravTeacher/KravAlt. Then people can look at it and see if that's a better version of the article and/ or what should be merged from it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:58, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I posted the information from the old page in my Talk. If any is usable and someone with more experience than me would like to merge it, I would be happy to give them a link to my site for reference. I don't remember which version it was..... --KravTeacher (talk) 02:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

For the section of the article about what most civilian classes are like, we need to find a citation or just remove it altogether. I would recommend trying to find a citation first, because I believe the information is correct, at least from what I've seen in my civilian Krav Maga classes. --216.86.204.185 (talk) 04:30, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

This article is rather badly written. Is there any objections to a stylish rewrite without changing any information? I am a professional copywriter and a Krav Maga trainee.

Tulli —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tulli (talk • contribs) 12:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't usually contribute to Wikipedia or edit articles but the grammar, syntax, punctuation, and overall writing style of this article is atrocious. I don't speak Hebrew or Yiddish but I think some of this is due to poor translation. I edited before I had a login that was credited to an IP address. I hope no one had any objections but the article was difficult to read and understand. Jrberlet (talk) 23:14, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

I've corrected the meaning of krav (combat/battle) and maga (close) according to a source I found here: [1]. While anyone is welcome to disagree with the source, unless another source can be

The Current usage section claims that Christian Bale trained in Krav Maga for a movie... What movie did Bale use Krav Maga in? He trained in the Keysi Fighting Method for Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, so he didn't use Krav Maga in either of them, so what movie did he use it in? What's the source for that? 72.79.211.249 (talk) 01:22, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

• Wait... I guess the reflink at the end of the section is what claims he used it (I thought that reflink was just for Lucy Liu until I checked the linked site.) However the site that claims he used Krav Maga is wrong. The referenced site claims Bale used Krav Maga in the Batman movies, but the site is mistaken/wrong, because Bale used the Keysi Fighting Method in both Batman movies. I'm going to remove Bale from the Current Usage section, since he never used Krav Maga in the batman movies, which is what the cited source falsely claims. 72.79.211.249 (talk) 01:36, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Unless you have a reliable source that states that fact, Bale should still be included. Wikipedia policy is not veracity, but

original research. From what I saw in the movies, though, there were a few times when he used techniques that I have been taught in Krav Maga, and my guess would be that since he practices as well it would not be unlikely that he used multiple forms of martial arts. KhalfaniKhaldun

01:39, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The Batman Begins DVD has a documentry about Bale's training for the movie, and Keysi is the one and only style they say he used, no other arts are mentioned. In this interview, bale talks about training in Keysi, but makes no mention of any other style. these Batman begins preduction notes only mention Keysi, as do these production notes from Dark Knight. Everything says Keysi, no where is there mention of Krav Maga or any other art. 72.79.211.249 (talk) 01:52, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

reverted. there is no question that he used keysi in batman. the sources state that he ALSO has krav training.. why wouldnt a guy with 9637656734million dollars not cross train... -4twenty42o (talk) 03:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

• The problem is, the site does not say he trains in Krav Maga in his personal life or as his own hobby. The site sepecificaly implies he used Krav Maga in the batman movies. The way the page is set up, is that the site lists an actor's name, then the movie it was used in. For example, it lists Jennifer Lopez, then "enough", and I've heard elsewhere that she trained in Krav Maga for "enough". The fact that the site lists "batman" after Bale's name implies that Bale trained in Krav Maga for the batman movies, which, as I have shown, is false. And after a few google searches, I find no proof that Bale has ever trained in Krav Maga in his personal life or for any movies. There is no proof that I've seen that confirms bale as someone who uses Krav Maga. And, as I said, the referenced site only implies he used in in batman. So you can't use that site to claim he practices Krav Maga in his personal life, and no legitimate source ever says Krav Maga was used in the Batman movies.72.79.211.249 (talk) 03:56, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

In addition to what I just said, my point is, no legitimate source that i've seen ever makes any claims of him using Krav Maga, either personally or in movies. The site used as a source claims he used it in batman, yet no other source supports that. And I question the reliability of that site, since it is a site devoted to Krav Maga, which makes it a bit biased, and no legitimate source I've ever seen supports what the site claims. 72.79.211.249 (talk) 04:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

To to to make my above points slightly clearer, let me try bullet points:

• No legitimate source has ever claimed that bale has used Krav Maga, either personally or in movies.
• The cited source makes a claim, but does not in any way support it. Where are there references? where did they get this information?
• The cited source specifically claims he used Krav Maga in the batman movies, but he didn't (see below)
• All official and legitimate sources that discuss the movie and the fighting used in it, all of them, say that Keysi was the one and only art used. never does bale or anyone else even say the words "Krav Maga", let alone say anything aboyt it being used.
• We can't say he used Krav Maga in the movie when no source has ever said he did, and the only site that says he used it, doesn;t say where they got their information from.
• We can't say he uses Krav Maga in his personal life, since he has never said such a thing, and no legitimate source says so
• The Site that claims he uses Krav Maga doesn't say where they got that information from. What's their source? How can we trust their word? How do we know they didn't just make it up?

• Show me Christian bale saying in an interview that he uses it, or a magazine or newspaper article that says he knows Krav Maga then I'll accept it without question, but all you have is a potentially biased site devoted exlusivly to Krav Maga, that makes claims without showing proof. 72.79.211.249 (talk) 04:24, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Well lets see.. You seem rather upset about this.. Tell ya what. I am going to take some time and get you some sources. Then i'll add them, revert and we will be done with it. I personally just googled "christian bale krav maga training" and got 2590 hits. Then i typed "christian bale krav maga batman" and got 167 hits. So ill add those now. Cheers! -4twenty42o (talk) 05:58, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

When The Documentary about the fight choreography/training says he only trained in Keysi, when Bale himself has only ever talked about training in Keysi, when the production notes only mention Keysi, i'm inclined to believe them. I haven't seen bale say he used Krav Maga, Krav Maga was never mentioned in the Documentary about the fight choreography/training. To put it simply, the only martial art used in the Batman movies is Keysi. Unless you want to say hat the movies directer, fight coreographer, and star are all wrong, the only martial art they used, the only martial art they ever even mention is Keysi. Not once has the fight choreographer, bale or anyone else involved in production say they used anything other than Keysi. And I've never read an interview, seen an article, or read an official biography where Bale said he ever trained in Krav Maga in his personal life. 72.79.211.249 (talk) 06:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

OK you have repeated yourself like 4 times. Again, NOBODY of any importance is saying that bale used krav on the set of batman. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD, BEFORE YOU REPEAT YOUR SELF AGAIN. Now i was working on something else when i saw you messaged again. But now im all about bale and krav - 4twenty42o (talk) 07:25, 10 April 2009 (UTC

references added. please stop reverting. - 4twenty42o (talk) 07:39, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Problem: The two referenced sites are both identical, same pictures, same page layout, therefore, they were created by the very same person. And those 2 pages are identical to the orginal reflink that was originally in the article last night. You show me 3 identical websites, using idential pictures, websites that were obviously created by a single person or group, and expect that to be proof? none of those sites say where they got there information from, and since all they were all created by the same person, using the same layout, these new sites can't be trusted any more than the original. Where has Bale stated in interviews that he has ever trained in Krav Maga? In what reliable, published source, is it ever stated that he knows Krav Maga? In what official biography is this ever stated in? No where.

All you have are a handfull of identical sites, made by the same person, or imitating each other, laying a claim that they don't subsantiate with any proof. Anybody can create a Martial Arts school website and say "Hey look at us! we're the style Christian Bale uses!" even if it's nothing more than a marketing ploy, with no supporting evidence from reliable, published sources, interviews, or biographies.

If I went and created a website and wrote on it "Christian Bale uses Jeet Kune Do!" would you accept that as a fact, even if I didn't say where that information came from? Of course you wouldn't. If I went and created 3 identical websites, with identical layouts, and claimed Bale uses JKD, would you accept it then? No, of course you wouldn't, because there aren't any reliable, outside sources to confim that claim. And yet you take the word of 3 identical, personal websites, made my a martial arts school, even though they give no proof, and no outside sources support their claim. But whatever. 96.233.182.95 (talk) 15:51, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The refs 15-21 do not appear to meet to criteria for

WP:RS and should be removed or replaced with reliable sources. Copana2002 (talk

) 16:51, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

You're going to have to be more specific than that. What criteria do they fail? As far as my experience with Wikipedia policy goes, official websites for businesses are expected to be reliable. KhalfaniKhaldun 19:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

(o/d)

Since the parenthood list and other list in the text were getting out of control with too many additions of questionable accuracy, I removed all of them from parenthood except for those that the text supports. (Imi practiced Kapap and Street fighting.) To quote my original edit summary, "Similarity does not imply parenthood, or even borrowed; Since this list is getting out of hand, references need to be cited to support that techniques were not developed independently of each form."

both words are used in the text presumably in reference to the same concept. i'm supposing that one of them is misspelled. 09:43, 22 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.64.77.254 (talk) 09:41, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Can we get a source or link to that information. Many instructors claim their methods are taught to the British Special Forces and it usually turns out to be bull. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.121.209 (talk) 13:09, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

None of those links actually say British Special Forces and something better then offical KM websites are needed as proof. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.44.240 (talk) 00:37, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Just to point this out. Eyal Yanilov IS the highest, non-military, authority on Krav Maga, in the world. This was removed from the page, most likely by someone who objects to this, but it is fact.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.223.213.141 (talk) 04:21, 08 September 2009 (UTC)

This is factually incorrect. Eyal Yanilov became promoted to 8th Degree after Immis death. Haim Gideon was the highest graded civilian instructor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.219.188.15 (talk) 08:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

To add, I don't see a 'Yanilov fan page'. There is a few statements of Yanilov. It is correct that Krav Maga belongs to Israel, which rightfully adopted it from Imi.

However it is known, that Eyal HOLDS THE HIGHTEST CIVILIAN RANK of any practioner in the world. The next under him is Darren Levine.

This is not a display of who OWNS Krav Maga, but rather who holds the highest rank as appointed by Imi. Eyal was his highest and most established student.

No one owns Krav Maga. Once upon a time, Imi did and so we have those under him spread throughout the world. There is still the recognition of who maintains the highest grading. This cannot be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.184.237.94 (talk) 12:25, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

JUST TO POINT THIS OUT: Eyal Yanilov was the highest rank on IKMF. Nevertheless, he has now his own Krav Maga Global. There are some other very important organizations, such as the IKMA (Haim Gidon 10th Dan), Bukan (Yaron Lichtenstein 9th Dan), and the KMF (Haim Zut, 10th Dan). They are non-military organizations, and all of them have their own interpretation of KM, just like Eyal Yanilov does. He's a great instructor but in no sense the "best" or the "highest" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.248.169.125 (talk) 22:17, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

It is simply false to call Yanilov the highest non-military Krav Maga authority. He is the highest in his own organization. But there is no single organization that can declare a worldwide highest-ranking individual. There is more than one legitimate and respected Krav Maga organization, and they have different highest-ranking individuals. In particular, Grandmasters Haim Gidon and Haim Zut (along with Yanilov) certainly warrant mention in any discussion of Krav Maga leadership. Their claims to leadership in Krav Maga (without any one of them having the right to claim status as "the" leader of Krav Maga everywhere it is practiced) are not subject to reasonable dispute. I'm not sure that I'll have the time soon to attempt a section on organizations and leadership that will be acceptable and as objective as possible, but for anyone who does have the time, I think you should take a look at http://www.kmli.com/NewsletterJan07.pdf (the second page, entitled "Which Krav Maga?"), where I think there's the start of a reasonably fair summary about Krav Maga organizations (even though there are some subjective elements in the article). Alternatively, we could simply leave out discussion of names and organizations, as this article did before. At least then we could avoid the politics. But I think that would be a disservice to readers looking for information, because there are some Krav Maga organizations that are widely recognized and respected, and some that aren't, and it would be great if this article could help readers figure that out in an objective way. I hope Wiki editors will find a solution.Shielse123 (talk) 18:23, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

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Perhaps you didn't read my point. Eyal is the highest in his organization and the highest student of Imi, who was the founder. Imi's passing, may he rest in peace, doesn't change the fact that Eyal was the highest graded student of the founder. This is not false. A little research into Krav Maga and it's establishment will show you Eyal was his highest student. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.184.231.96 (talk) 08:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

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You stated that Eyal is the highest ranking authority in the world, and that's what the improper revision to the article states. I've read all of it. The article doesn't state that Eyal is the highest-ranking member of the IKMF. The article even argues that it is "unrealistic and false for any instructor in the world to achieve a higher non-military level than" Eyal's. Arguments like that simply don't belong in a Wikipedia article. Even if such arguments could be included as fact (C'mon!), I don't get the logic of the argument. It takes a snapshot of a moment in time and attempts to preserve that state of affairs forever, because of Imi's passing. That doesn't make sense to me. Haim Gidon and Haim Zut achieved 10th Dan status after Imi's passing, and each legitimately claims to have been Imi's highest-ranking student at one time or another (apparently, Gidon at the time he was awarded 8th Dan, and Zut at the time he was awarded the very first 6th Dan and then separated from the IKMA with Imi's blessing (and with Imi's reported continued conferral of Zut's rankings, up to 8th Dan). Are Gidon's and Zut's Grandmaster ranks illegitimate because they were not given by Imi, (instead being simply assumed by Gidon by virtue of his position as leader of the IKMA, and, in the case of Haim Zut, conferred by leading Israeli martial artists at the time of his induction into the Israeli Martial Arts Hall of Fame)? Is Darren Levine's 10th Dan necessarily illegitimate because he is an American who traveled to Israel to train and has not spent his life doing Krav Maga, but nonetheless was given Imi's mandate to lead the Krav Maga Association of America? No. And no. All of these individuals' claims have some legitimacy. Gidon can argue that his 10th Dan is legitimate because he received an 8th Dan from Imi, and is leader of the IKMA. Yanilov and Levine can both point to their "Founder's Diploma of Excellence" from Imi, and the leadership of their respective KM organizations. And Zut can argue that he is the only one of Imi's top-ranked students who ultimately achieved a 10th Dan in Krav Maga that was not self-conferred. There's no way to definitively resolve a debate about "worldwide" leadership. Imi did not appoint a successor, or declare that no one could advance in rank, except through some single KM organization, after his passing. Indeed, even if he had done so, it's not likely that would end the dispute. So . . . just like with many other martial arts, there is more than one legitimate organization with a top guy, including 10th Dans, and there is no way to resolve a debate over "worldwide" leadership. We shouldn't be trying to resolve the debate in this article, but should stop at giving basic information about all of the major organizations and the leaders of those organizations, or else we should not mention leaders or organizations at all, and should simply focus on the art. We can all agree, I think, on some basic principles and techniques of Krav Maga, as set forth by Imi and still completely wise and valid, and this article should focus on that and leave the politics out.Shielse123 (talk) 19:25, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

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I understand your opinions and points. I have withdrawn the Eyal Yanilov information as I would rather people see Krav Maga for what it is and not a political fued between organizations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.179.63.220 (talk) 13:01, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

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Hi guys. If the page is going to list specific organizations/federations, then shouldn't it also include Haim Zut's Krav Maga Federation? Does anyone object to including KMF in the list of organizations in this section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samwestonx (talk • contribs) 01:48, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi

To clarify - Eyal was the IKMF'S highest ranking practitioner not THE highest ranking Krav Maga practitioner. This title is contentious but the most likely candidate for this would be Haim Gideon who was awarded an 8th Degree in Imis life time. Others contest this but Eyal was not the Highest ranked practitioner during Imi's lifetime. There are issues with the awarding of Eyals 8th degree after Imis death by his wife that compound the problem. Interestingly Imi (the founder) did not chose a successor after the death. In simple terms Haim Gideon was the highest ranked during the founders life time - what happend after this point become conjecture and should be beyond the remit of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.219.188.15 (talk) 08:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

WOW! A guy leaves the scene for a little while and this whole freaking page becomes the Eyal Yanilov show! Listen, I agree he has done a LOT for Krav Maga, but NO ONE has definitvely proven anyone's heirship - nor should they! Krav Maga belongs to Israel, not one strain of the virus which infects it. Yes, you know the virus to which I refer - the "this is authentic Krav Maga and this is not" flesh eating virus!! What a load of bull...... Politics be damned, let's please get this page back to it's intent - informing the public about the combat system we love''''. Leave your freakin' political non-sense in your gym shorts behind the groin protector where it belongs!

That said, I know there are charlatans who have invaded the scene. Those who claim things about their military records, their having trained this unit or that, having been in this war or that, etc. Barring their ridiculous stupidity, Krav Maga is a principle based system. Imi said so himself and Yanilov backed this in the book they co-authored! This means if a technique fits into those principles and follows Krav Maga philosophy and/or typical application(s) - THEN IT IS KRAV MAGA!

Can we clean this page up and just get back to Krav Maga and not feature any one person - PLEASE!?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.226.23.69 (talk) 20:10, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Krav Maga is a practical system and I have been studying it for years. NEVER have I been taught to kick so high to a knife attackers arm when they are coming at you with an icepick stab! That is NOT practical, nor is it Krav Maga! I suggest you change the picture to something more in line with what the average person can do and achieve....

I second this, the picture is NOT Krav Maga. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.29.43.3 (talk) 18:45, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah this is definitely not Krav Maga. This is very impractical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.167.228.212 (talk) 20:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

While I’ll admit to being an observer of Krav Maga and not a student I would point out I’ve seen KM books that promote high kicking as a form of knife defence. However if the general consensus is that this isn't common or typical KM then the picture really should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.226.191 (talk) 01:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I removed the picture. Can someone put up a better one? Cablespy (talk) 10:49, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

At the time of the picture, the highkicker was a P2 student and the attacher was a P1 student both belonging to Hampshire Krav Maga. On the day of the photo the guys were having a laugh for a good photo. Not a Krav photo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.6.149.27 (talk) 14:07, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't understand why Hungary is listed as country of origin. Could somebody enlighten me, I may have just missed something reading the article, or should this be removed? Thanks. Hrcolyer (talk) 19:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you on that. I understand that Imi Lichtenfeld was born in Hungary but he grew up in Czechoslovakia and Krav Maga was developed in Czechoslovakia and not in Hungary. I suggest we go ahead and remove Hungary from the counrty of origin section. I would also suggest we change Slovak Republic to Czechoslovakia. The Slovak Republic exists since the 90s which makes it historically incorrect to use it for a system which was developed in the 30s. Please comment. Der rikkk —Preceding undated comment added 10:49, 5 May 2010 (UTC).

Actually none is true, Imi brought the experience acquired in Europe back to Israel where he started teaching Kapap (stick fighting) knife fighting and swimming. He was later asked to take on more and more because of his background in street fighting. As he was teaching the army he had to develop a limited set of techniques for military situations. Those were very simple as the mainly employed the gun, the bayonette, the knife, sometimes rope. They then started calling this Krav Maga meaning Krav Maga was developed into a system in Israel. It was called a defensive system because the attacks were standard military tactics and that it was only when the fight go close range (hence the name Krav Maga) that the almost exclusively defensive Krav Maga techniques became useful. Be careful when we say defensive stabbing someone is considered a defensive move if he got close enough to you for close range combat. It was when Imi retired that the system was polished in to a complete system based on solutions to problems that was more complete as in the military arrest techniques where rare, military acting as peace keepers and doing police work is a modern concept. Meaning Law enforcement problems had to have brand new Krav Maga solutions. Same for civilian Krav Maga the most expansive curriculum having to be developed since every day life brings about tons of situations not common on the battlefield. An example of this is a knife threat on the battle field is not something the military encounters, why would the attacker pull a knife and make a request? A knife attack is common where they try to stab you straight off but someone holding a knife making demands is a pure civilian life situation. Same thing with defending from a seated position where the attacker is sat next to you. How would this have happened on the battle field? All of these problems needed solutions and Imi and his top students helped come up with those in Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.211.182 (talk) 17:11, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I haven't found any evidence that the name "Israeli Jujitsu" is used as synonym of Krav Maga. I googled Israeli Jujitsu and found this website http://mandel.tripod.com/, which accordingly to the description has nothing to do with the original KM technique. I vote for removal of that part.

I would also suggest we remove that part. I've never heard or read about Krav Maga being called Israeli Ju Jitsu. Plus I can't find any real sources proving the opposite. --Der rikkk (talk) 09:47, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Currently, a search for the Haganah self-defense system redirects to Krav Maga. While the two are related and Haganah specifically lists Krav Maga as one of its parent systems, it is a distinct and different form of self-defense so I don't think the redirect is really proper. I'm a Haganah student but am by no means an expert so I could put together a brief Haganah stub article but I think it is worthy of a full entry. Nsfreeman (talk) 02:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Removed section on trademarking Krav Maga for 3 reasons:

1) Not relevant to the Leadership section.

2) The ref link no longer exists.

3) The archive.org copy of the source material shows that it was just a one-sided interview published by someone at usadojo.com. Though the interview does mention some source material, it should be considered subjective as the role of an interviewer is not to disseminate objective information, but rather to elicit a response from the interviewee. Because the source is invalid, the content should be removed.

Added cleanup tag because the paragraph beginning "Around 2001" borders on a rant, and certainly has no place in the "Leadership" section.

If that information is felt to be necessary at all, it should be put in a new section (e.g. "Controversies"), and cleaned up for grammar and relevancy.

--Scott Mintred 21:06, 3 January 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scott.Mintred (talk • contribs)

Firstly can we have a proper reference link to the French Special Forces claim, I don't think we can rely on a reference from a dodgy martial arts book to validate this claim. Also I’m very sceptical about the claim that Krav Maga is actually taught to American special operations personal. Can we have proper reference links for those claims other then Krav Maga fan sites? Perhaps the US Army or US Navy's official website, for example.

If no proper references are added I vote that we remove those claims since it has the potential to mislead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.9.9 (talk) 07:12, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Well it's been 2 weeks and no one's objected so I’ll remove those comments. If anyone wishes to dispute and can provide proper references they can always put them back later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.150.221 (talk) 17:05, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the claims that Krav Maga was trialled by Scotland Yard for use by the Royal families VIP protection team as the link had no mention of it and simply directed to a Krav Maga site. If anyone can provide a proper link by all means feel free to put it back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.72.19 (talk) 03:06, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

It looks like the reference actually went with the previous sentence showing that there are schools in South Africa by linking to one. It could be viewed as advertising for that school though, so I'm not sure it should go back in Seriouslyuguys (talk) 17:26, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

It keeps slipping back on, either someone is repeatedly putting it back or there's a glitch in the system. Agree with the above, blatant advertising shouldn't be allowed either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.72.19 (talk) 13:31, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The History section offered selective information which painted a very baised picture. I have removed some of the information about the IKMA that could be interpreted as self promoting. Furthermore, the links to the references supporting those claims were not working. Unless we intend to go into detail on every single Krav Maga organisation in this section, then the information here was unsuitable. Meanwhile, I have left only the information about the IKMA which would be useful for readers to understand the chronological development of the Krav Maga organtizations. I have also added more information to this point that allows readers to have a grasp of where Krav Maga developed from the IKMA and have included references to back up these statements. I feel this allows a more comprehensive account.

I am still not 100% satisfied with this section but I do not want to introduce any dramatic changes at this point. I am happy for feedback regarding my changes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.27.9 (talk) 09:03, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

"Krav maga is......mostly known for its efficient counter-attacks"

That's all?! Its efficient counter attacks? Isn't it known for its efficient fighting style as well? Article makes it sound as if counter attacks are all its good for. It does have efficient counter attacks. But it has a lot more than that. It is an efficient and brutal fighting style, that "gets the job done". Quickly, and in an efficient manner.

Krav maga is arguably the most practical martial arts style in existence, as it is actually intended for real combat situations in Israel. Unlike most fighting styles, like Judo and others, that are intended as a sport and/or as a means of self perfection. So i think that that line in the overview should be rewritten, as it is inaccurate and misleading. And this distinction between krav maga and virtually every other martial arts style that i have made is also suitable for inclusion in the body of the article, somewhere, if it isn't made there already.

That's all. There is a problem with all of the following statements:

"it is actually intended for real combat situations" "Unlike most fighting styles" "this distinction between krav maga and virtually every other martial arts style".

This attitude is endemic to the Krav Maga world and is so naive of other systems it's no wonder the Krav Maga system is ridiculed and derided in other circles. As someone with over 20 years of experience in Kali / Eskrima, Ju Jutsu, BJJ, Muay Thai, Krav Maga (yes, really) and others, the grand illusions of Krav that it is somehow different is a joke in itself. I've yet to see a Krav practitioner successfully defend against an Eskrimador - they get stabbed to death or beaten to death in simulation. Or a BJJ player when it goes to the ground. Or a Thai Boxer with more than 12 months experience in stand up. I've seen Krav students 'spar' and it's laughably obscene that money is being taken for 'expertise'. The self-delusion of Krav Maga even goes so far as civilians thinking they're learning a special forces system - they're not, they're learning the worlds most basic, pre-choreographed and rigid system developed for CIVILIANS in the world. Dreadful - marketing gone to far.

Conflict resolution techniques are regularly taught in Germany (partly due to legal reasons). Is this the general case or a national particularity? If so, maybe it should be mentioned in the techniques section... -- megA (talk) 21:46, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any references to those claims. Could whoever put them up include accurate references or remove the claims since otherwise it looks like some martial arts nerds wet dream. If Krav Maga is part of their curriculum then fair enough, prove it, otherwise it shouldn’t be on there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.72.205 (talk) 02:06, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Well no one's added any proper references for those claims so I’ll remove them. If anyone can provide proper proof then they can always put them back later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.152.79.106 (talk) 13:19, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I added a little chart to make the belt/patch ranking system more clear, It's not rendering exactly how I'd like (not enough space between the text outside it and the table. But I'm not really sure how to fix that with wiki markup. So, if someone does, please jump in. Seriouslyuguys (talk) 21:56, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I've removed most of the claims from the organizations section since most had no references and many of those that did were from suspicious sources. I’ve kept up the US Airforce though since the reference came from the US Airforce’s official website (even though I’m sceptical and suspect it isn't as widely taught as the article suggests). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.233.107 (talk) 14:55, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I find to believe all combat soldiers learn Krav Maga, maybe all from some countries not all on the planet. 86.173.231.151 (talk) 00:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)